Gotcha

Which generally is the most important attribute in football.

Aside from my personal preferences of formation - which dont typically include 3 at the back - I am one of the folk on here who would have preferred a more cautionary approach to drastic formation changes in the middle of world cup qualifying.  Despite your fallacious stance on this issue, Ange not having previous experience with the formation in a competitive match is a very valid reason.  Your concerns with the transition of the team under a 442 or 433 were mirrored in the first game under the new formation against iraq.  In this match Wright was used wide and pressed well up the sideline as a fullback would: leaving us exposed.  The only difference lay with the deployment of 2 defensive midfielders which allowed either jedinak or luongo to sit back and cover as needed.  This could have been replicated in the old formation but as you have pointed out, it wasnt and we were often left exposed at the back.  In fact at times is was more like luongo and wright playing as fullbacks with a back 2 covered by jedinak.  It was a mess.

Like a lot of people, I was happily surprised that in the game v UAE the fullbacks were better situated and even attacked from deep, rather than sitting in the front third.  The back 3 mostly remained as such.  And the 2 defensive midfielders operated largely as defensive midfielders.  Imo all the could have been achieved under either of the old systems with better management of the fullbacks and clearer duties issued to the defensive midfielders.  An area of necessary improvement that you clearly pointed out numerous times. However, I dont think that the 3241 is necessary for this and I can see Ange losing his lessons from the Iraqi game after the last win.  

tldr:  Although I am more than happy to support it and hope that it works out,  I still dont think 3 at the back is necessary or an improvement on what we have.  The improvements we made in the game v UAE included better positioning and stricter defensive duties for the fullbacks and defensive midfielders.  This could have been done without 3 at the back.

Quality post.

I should have a stats thread up in a few days that confirm a lot of your opinions with evidence based research - stats.

my personal conundrum with a preference for formations is kind of stuck on my preference for a diamond as we play it (and therefore no wings as i dont think we have the quality of wings to include them in a formation) vs the obvious need for us to play with 2 screening midfielders.  sad fact is the only sensible formation for playing with no out and out attacking wings while having 2 screening midfielders might just be using a back 3....  This might be where ange is coming from.

or we could use a 4-2-1-2-1 which just happens to be what im using on fifa 17 nowadays...  with 2 pacey attacking mids/centre forwards supporting a big gifted target man.  fwiw (i know this will cause some cringe) this is the basic fifa formation I just used to get my NT to the final of the confed cup in the first season of career mode..

-----------------------------Langerak
Behich-----------Sains-------------Wright-------------Gersbach
-----------------jedinak----------------------luongo
--------------------------------mooy
---------------maclaren---------------leckie
--------------------------------rogic

wow this has been buried by 442 articles that no one is replying to.  they should not pop into the forum unless someone has commented on them.  it's killing the forum.

some stats on cahill i put on the melbourne heart thread.  comparing him to our key striker and the comps highest scoring midfielder.  i was a bit sceptical on cahill, but he has been much more involved since JVS left.  starting games.  he is too good to leave on the bench in the AL.

Including penalties:

Cahill             11 goals 119 minutes per goal  (+1 assist)
Fornaroli         17 goals 137 minutes per goal (+1 assist)
Castro            12 goals 172 minutes per goal (+6 assists)

Without penalties:

Cahill          11 goals 119 minutes per goal
Fornaroli      9 goals 258 minutes per goal
Castro         7 goals 294 minutes per goal

The numbers speak for themselves.

Since we played 3 at the back I've been amazed at he number of European clubs who've employed the same formation. Dortmund actually used a carbon copy of our Iraq formation. I'm pretty sure we had the same against UAE?

We just need to practice it a bit more and find the right players. I'd like to see a back 3 of Davidson, Sainsbury and Milligan. Wright, Degenek and others are definitely valuable members but lack the pace and pass for the 3. Unfortunately Ange isn't flexible enough to change formations during a match. Did he change formations during tournaments? 

How does this compare (goals per minute) vs. Maclaren, Taggart and Juric? - anyone have the stats?

Actually here they are:

Name	Apps	Mins	Goals	Assists	GpG	ApG	GApg	MpG
Tim Cahill	20	1304	11	1	0.55	0.05	0.60	119
Jamie Maclaren	31	2488	20	2	0.65	0.06	0.71	124
Adam Taggart	22	1523	12	1	0.55	0.05	0.59	127
Tomi Juric	27	1709	7	5	0.26	0.19	0.44	244

Interesting to see how low Juric is comparable to the A-League players. Shows a strong argument to start Maclaren with Cahill off the bench or even as 2nd striker 
- perhaps changing Ange's 32221 formation to a 3412

how about without penalties?  because we need to look at who can score from open play.

Maclaren has a marginally worse goals per game ratio than Berisha at the ripe old age of 23, and I'm willing to be Maclaren has a better goals/minute ratio given the sub appearances he made at his time at the glory. I fail to see how this is a discussion - no other young Aussie striker is coming close. Juric has never in his life been as prolific. 

Yeah the pool of talent the socceroos have for strikers isnt good. Think Maclaren deserves a call up.
Remember when Taggart was in the 2014 wc. He has dropped of

Whats our weakest position in terms of the depth of players we have for it?
Striker seems to be one. And our best would be gk

So with the season coming to a close I thought I'd make some notes/questions ahead of next season to see our national team take shape ahead of the 2018 world cup and beyond.

GOALKEEPERS
- Matt Ryan needs to either stay with Genk or make a move to another team where he's playing nearly every week next season in the leadup to the world cup.
- Mitchell Langerak needs to prove to Stuttgart he's their man for the Bundesliga next season, or else get a loan where he's playing every week.
- We have countless other goalkeepers either playing abroad or looking decent, so next season will be the chance for one of them to make an impact.
- Overall assessment of our goalkeepers: Pretty decent, probably the area where I've got the most confidence we'll be fine for the next decade.

LEFT-BACKS:
- Alex Gersbach should be starting more games for the national team, and is likely to be playing regularly every game week at club level in the immediate future.
- Brad Smith needs a loan to the Championship or elsewhere, and shouldn't be near the national team until he's playing every week.
- We have other options forming like Behich and Elder, who can hopefully nail down starting spots next season
- Overall assessment of left-backs: The best we've looked in the Ange era, with three young abroad players in contention.

CENTRE-BACKS:
- Trent Sainsbury and Matthew Spiranovic need to permanently move out of China and find a regular starting spot in Europe.
- Bailey Wright is captaining Bristol and looks set to be playing regularly in the Championship next season.
- Jedinak has been played at centre-back at club level, should this continue as he gets older? Could he be a stalwart rock at the back for the national team?
- Some of the younger players like Cameron Burgess and Jonathon Aspro need to be looked at for our CB options for more depth, especially since we look set on playing three CBs now.
- Overall assessment of our centre-backs: Needs some movement in the off-season and regular gametime, plus some tinkering to work out our best combinations. If this is sorted then we could actually have a relatively solid defence going into 2018.

RIGHT-BACKS:
- Rhyan Grant should look at options in Belgium and the Netherlands, since we're totally devoid of any RBs playing abroad and the position is there for the taking.
- Should a youngster like Gabriel Cleur (the right wing-back at Virtus Entella in Serie B) be looked at since nothing we've tried so far has worked?
- Overall assessment of our right-backs: Poor. Looks very worrying and is definitely our weakest point. If someone could shift their position at club level to RB or a quality RB could materialize out of thin air next season, that would be fantastic. Otherwise it's going to be tough.

DEFENSIVE MIDFIELDERS:
- Jedinak and Milligan are getting older, but should be still there for 2018 and 2019, although we'll definitely need to be looking at successors. Are there any out there?
- Should Mooy and Luongo be playing in deeper roles for the national team like they do at club level?
- How many defensive midfielders should we be ideally playing with?
- Overall assessment of defensive midfielders: Fine for the moment, but could be troublesome in the near future if we don't look at other options.

CENTRAL MIDFIELDERS:
- This section doesn't need much analysis since it's the only area where we can confidently say we've got decent depth.
- Mooy and Irvine could be in the EPL next season, plus we've got people like Jeggo, Amini, O'Neill, and Luongo all playing regularly in Europe. Based on the best Australians in the A-League and the most promising batch from the youth levels (such as the U23 level) it seems that there's a plethora of central midfield options.
- Overall assessment of central midfielders: Definitely our strongest area and the most secure for the immediate future. With the right combination we could really have a quality midfield going into 2018 and beyond.

ATTACKING MIDFIELDERS:
- When he's injury-free Tom Rogic is a valuable player for Celtic. Should he stay for another season of guaranteed game time or does he take a step up if possible?
- There's other options that seem to be emerging as attacking midfielders (Ajdin Hrustic looking chief among them) that could be decent players in the future...are they worth a try or should we stick with Rogic/Irvine/Luongo for the immediate future?
- Overall assessment of attacking midfielders: Good, but one of them needs to make a step up and prove they can be prolific at the highest levels.

WINGERS:
- Matthew Leckie's side is likely getting relegated, so he'll be moving on at club level most likely. The same goes for Awer Mabil. Where do they go?
- Is next season the chance for Panos Armenakas to play at senior level, either in Serie A or on loan?
- Chris Ikonomidis, Craig Goodwin, Ben Halloran, Daniel de Silva, and Bernie Ibini will all likely be abroad or playing regularly next season....do we consider them?
- Is Robbie Kruse done for the national team?
- Overall assessment of wingers: Inconsistent and uncertain, especially with the change in formation which requires wing-backs rather than attacking wingers. There's plenty of players that have POTENTIAL to be decent wingers for the national team, but only Leckie has seemed to ever make an impact recently.

STRIKERS:
- Tomi Juric is steady in Switzerland but not setting the league alight or playing regularly.
- Jamie Maclaren is leaving Brisbane. Where should he go? Is he our answer?
- Overall assessment of strikers: Very, VERY poor. We desperately need someone like Maclaren to develop abroad, or else someone in midfield needs to step up like Tim Cahill has done continuously during the Ange era so far. What is our solution here? Is there any?

I know this idea wont happen, but i think it should.

I am ange's biggest fan and i fully support they way he has been brought into the setup and got us to where we are.  I also support his selection of younger players who will place us in good stead in Russia.  

That being said, We are now at or close to emergency stages.  It may be that Ange has found our best 11 or best 22 or whatever.  But i dont believe that Australia has the depth to ignore selection of any player who is in actual fact good enough to be in that 22.  We learned that lesson at the last World Cup where the non selection of Schwarzer, Wilkshire, Kewell and possibly even Neil cost Australia a probably World Cup Second round birth, or at least a much better chance.  

IN all honesty those spots were taken by say Galekovic(Schwarzer), McGowan (Wilkshire), Vidosic (Kewell), Bailey Wright (Neil).  Of those only Bailey Wright and to a lesser degree Taggart is realistically in contention for a spot at the next world cup and to be honest, he probably rates behind Spiranovic, Sainsbury, Milligan, Wilkinson at the very least for his position.  In fact if you look at the squad which was chosen with an eye on this upcoming world cup you would realistically say that Vidosic, Holland and Bozanic despite being young, did not  really look like improving from the experience or pushing for a regular spot.  Halloran, Taggart, McGowan, Franjic, Davidson, Oar all did improve their own stature from the world cup experience (sort of) but interestingly, none of those have managed anything but sporadic appearances and are at best outside chances of being involved in the next world cup although i suppose they have improved our depth.  This leaves Luongo, Leckie, Wright and Troisi who were probably fringe guys given the opportunity to start by Ange and they have been his success stories from the last world cup with the first 2 cementing their spots and the later 2 playing important roles at different times, although both may yet miss out on the next squad if they are not in top form.  I left out the two keepers Ryan and Langerak as they were always squad certainties.  I dont think Ryan gained that much from starting the world cup ahead of Schwarzer (maybe it even hurt him) but both have been successes as well.

So, anyway, back to the point, Now that we have just one year to the world cup, age shouldnt matter.  Selections for the next world cup, other than a real youth smokey such as Caletti, Da Silva, McGree or someone similarly unproven but high on talent and potential, i think that starting with the third place playoffs (if we are forced there) or otherwise the world cup finals next year, The time is right to choose the best team and in form players at the time of selection and not with an eye to the future. it may only be that one or two are good enough or maybe even none.  Even then, they may only provide a role off the bench or as a squaddie, but we need our strongest squad.

So my proposal, so as not to interfere with Ange's progress is to stage a high profile game (maybe even a 3 game series to see how the oldies react to a WC Schedule) at the next available opportunity between the Full Socceroos and the Golden Socerroos so that we can guage exactly where Ange's squad is at and see if there are excluded players who might just be worth a look.  I would suggest a team something like the following:

GK: Galekovic - He was our third best but some say he has lost it.  It is time to find out if he can still produce at this level.  if he does, he might still snag a spot.  NB Federici, Jones or even Birighetti seem to have been out of sight lately and each might also be selected.

LB: Carney - Our young fulbacks have been a limited success but Carney has played well in patches albeit in a different position, and none of the youth have reached his old levels. Who knows, maybe an inform Carney could break down the left and actually find a player in the box and provide decent service.  Having pressure to perform might also help improve our young left backs further.  Davidson could probably play backup in the squad.  He hasnt had a look in for ages.

CB: Wilkinson - I still think he is easily the best CB we have and cant believe Ange has left him out recently.  

CB: Cornthwaite - He was our incumbent at one stage and has performed suprisingly well in the past.  Seems to have come on recently at WSW also.  Why not see whether or not he still has it. North is another who might be worth a shot perfectly suited to anges new formation but obviously aging.  

RB: Wilkshire - I know he seems to be losing his gusto overseas (is he still even playing), but a selection would give him a spring in his step if he is close to his old form he is easily our best RB option.  Franjic is another who desperately needs a chance.  Not in the same form as when last selected but maybe he thrived in the position last time he was given a chance at this level.  It is time to find out whether or not he still has it at this level.

LW: Thomas Broich - It seems that he might just be naturalised by the world cup (i think he is available if this happens). He is not the player he was but he still has flashes of brilliance.  Imagine him coming off the bench and  dropping the ball on Timmy Cahill's head regularly.  I think he could be potentially the most damaging option we have.  Or he might be too old and not able to cope with the rise in class.

Mid: Matt Mackay - One of Ange's favourites but Age seems to have lost his spot.  This game would be one last chance to see whether he still can produce at this level and whether or not he is (or should be) still in the mix. 

Mid: Alex Brosque - i never understood why he never made anges original squad.  He seems perfectly suited to Anges game plan. I always liked him in the central midfield. Now he is one of the in form (if not the inform) strikers in the A league.  If he competes at this level still, he could be one of Australia's answers to our striking problems or assist the midfield

RW: Brett Holman - He is older but starting to run into some really good form.  this game would find out whether or not he is still good enough.

F:    Scott McDonald - He probably has our best goal scoring at the best level despite never scoring for the socceroos.  He seems to be slowing down, but a game like this would see whether or not he is still up to it, which at his best he would have improved this squad.  A game like this would see what he had to offer.

F: Brendan Santalab - No  matter what you think of this guy, he has that knack of scoring in big games even off the bench.  Too old to think realistically he coudl be brought in and raise the extra level, but why not give him this chance, and who knows he might just produce the goods.  He seemed to rise to a higher level in the big games so he is well worth a shot. 

Smokeys in addition to the players mentioned a couple of smokeys could be selected also, to see how they go with high caliber experienced players and against international sides.  I would recommend Da Silva, Caletti and maybe McGree as i think each is realistic chance to come into the running by the WC Finals, but obviously Ange might see some other youngsters who might be better. Maybe Ange could select other guys who simply  havent had a chance lately but are outside chances to be good enough such Mrcella, Porto, even Devere or other fringe guys etc or guys not playing regularly and under a cloud like Sainsbury, Kruse etc Perhaps even use it to experiment positionally such as Jedinak at centre back or Milligan as striker (nothing more than a personal hunch) or more likely right back.  Plus i am sure i probably forgot about a few guys

Coach: I would go with Farina or Kosmina for promotional reasons and stick with the 4 4 2 (though perhaps an ange philosophy  clone such as Gombau, Muscat, Vidosic or even Ante Milicic or one of he current assistans  might be preferred and would make some sense).

I think that a game like this would throw up a few selection headaches and might just solve one or two problem positions.  it is also likely to improve the current squad depth and i think our young team would only learn from involvement against such an experienced side.  

I am guessing most will shoot down this idea, but i think we need something like this and it would be great for our world cup chances.

Hahahahahahaha someone found the flux capicitor and took the delorean back to 2011. 

What in the living fuck did I just read

Good Summary, I would comment as follows:

GK:  I agree.  Barring disasters Langerak and Ryan both look Certainties.  The third spot is wide open but probably wont play anyway i think a number of guys could claim it.

LB: I agree with most of your comments except regarding Smith.  I have to be honest, i dont like seeing players drop down a division because they are not playing well enough to command a starting spot.  i think it does them better to stay where they are and fight it out in the premier league squad.  Smith doesnt need to take the extra yard in training, practice putting his crosses on a 10c piece and improving his first touch.  If he does this, he makes the Bournemouth first team in a canter and Australia is much better for it.  A championship loan does improve his chances of playing in the world cup, but he will drop to the level he is playing and it is much easier for him to improve in the premier league.  He hasnt done it so far, but he does have the potential to.  I hope he stays and improves his game.  Also, i think Davidson should not be completely out of calculations either.

CB: My opinion is that Milligan and Wilkinson are the two best centrebacks we have by quite a distance (not sure on Jedinak but i cant see him reaching their levels) and they must always be first choice from here on in.  I agree with your comments on Sainsbury (who has less obvious flaws to fix than smith) and doesnt seem to be getting the same chances.  I would love to see him succeed in Italy but it does look unlikely even though i think he will not dissappoint if given the chance.

RB: I agree with your comments.  I doubt grant is good enough and no one seems to have stepped up.  I personally like Hingert out of the local options but his defensive side has been off lately.  He would be my smokey.  I also think that despite not performing overly outstanding, Franjic might need to be installed as a last option.  He has been our best RB in the ange era.  He needs to improve his game though.  Leckie also, i think looks so much more dangerous when he starts his attacking runs from deep like he did in he last game.  I really think he could solve he problem and be an outstanding success in this position.  If not, i think careful conversion of midfielders is the answer.  Halloran and Amini are two guys who come to mind as having well suited skills that would transfer to this position.

Midfield: I agre with most of your comments but i disagree that we dont have things to consider.  There is ample talent (and it probably needs moving to other positions) but we need to be brutal with our selection as some of our classy players are going to miss out.  We cant run 6 midfielders in 2 or 3 spots.  Mooy is our best he must be one of the midfielders. Rogic is an interesting case.  Second best on form with Celtic (maybe even no 1) but is he better coming off the bench and running at tired defenders.  Would he appreciate more room to move if played wide on the right.  Is he more dangerous playing a more advanced role next to or near the striker.  He needs to find his spot in the team quickly.  Jedinak - Great captain but is he slowing down and there are questions, does he need to drop to defence.  is milligan a better option all round.  Does he need a midfielder screening beside him.  Would we better off with a younger more skilled player in the position such as Luongo (for that matter if the answer is no is there a spot for such a talented player in great form, but who isnt quite as good as Mooy or Rogic and maybe not even Irvine or some of he other youngsters coming through), should Luongo be the answer at right back.  He is skilful enough to play anywhere in all honesty and he definitely wouldnt be as bad in the position as some of the guys we have tried and failed in the past. Ange needs to be brutal in his selections.  There are some great players who are not going to get the game time they deserve.  We cant upset the team structure to fit every body in, i dont think.

Forwards - I also agree with your assessment.  Taggart, Maclaren, Juric seem the only Cahill replacement options.  All have shown potential, but none have grabbed the opportunity or been clinical enough. Others like Kruse, Burns, Troisi have, in all honesty not been clinical enough.  Burns has looked to me the best chance, but he cant even make it in Asia so how can you expect him to make it in the world cup.  If he could nail down a starting spot somewhere it would help but realistically he might just not really be out best option.All of these will likely be the ones considered, but i think i would start looking out of the square.  Irvine seems to have a natural talent for goals, why not trial him there. And some of our older strikers should probably be looked at also.  It is a position where experience can be invaluable.  

lol . I expected a few of these responses.

Seriously though, Australia needs to find at least 2 players for the next world cup.

We need a right back.  We have tried every young gun or A league player under the sun (Except maybe Hingert and i suppose ryan Grant who obviously didnt overly impress Ange at the last world cup).  

We need goal scorers desperately.  Our best goal scorers, sadly, are older players.  Some of them are actually proving it in games.  Eg Brosque has had a better season than say Taggart or Juric and (imo and despie the golden boot) Maclaren. No centre back has come close to Wilkinson's form this year.  Our best player is still an old converted Midfielder (despite what you read on here).

Prime Cahill was 2 classes above our second best striker.  Now he is only one class above them or maybe even just a bit better. What is to say someone like Scott McDonald who in his prime would have almost certainly been one of our striking options in this team, might still not be better than the guys we have, particularly if he plays well and they play poorly.

The game i proposed will not provide a better team than the current socceroos and in fact may not even throw up anyone good enough to make he socceroos.  But then again. if Wilkshire or Franjic regularly breaks down the right and actually finds a striker, like Santalab regularly, you just might get one or two players that will improve the current squad.  

We need to go to Russia (if we make it) with our best 22 players not with 20 of our best 22 players.

  

@holding
As well as Brad Jones who is a regualr for Feyenoord and played europa league football where he made it to the team of group stage best gk and something as well. Can't remember. Gk seems to be our stronges position. Australian football has a good history of producing good gks

Lb, I'd like to see Behich in the team. He is playing reguarly in the Turkish league i think.

Cb does not look good. Burgess seems like a decent talent however it wont be a good look if we have to rely on a league one player. Its just the game time thats effecting is. Sainsbury could be playing reguarly in the eredise

For rb it seems our best choices are Josh Risdon and Franjic who play in the A-league

Ikon should possibly play ahead of kruse

For st theres nothing we can do. Australia just hasnt produced anyone st that is decent atm. Tbh might as well play Maclarem instead of Juric

Great summary above 'Holding Bidfielder'
Next season will be huge for any player with aspirations of playing International Football at the highest level.

Dammm Remember the falling out of lucas neil and how he went bankrupt despite earning over 50million in his career. He hasnt been seen or anything since 2014 or 2015. There was an instance where Robbie Slatter saw him in public and went to say hi to him then Lucas Neil ran away cause he didnt want to be seen. He filed for bankruptcy. Wonder what happened to him now. His pretty much unpffically retired. Hasnt played for a club since 2014 but hasnt released an offcial statement saying his retired. His past tweet on twitter was 3 years ago

It should be noted he declared bankruptcy in the UK, that doesn't necessarily mean he is completely out of money.

Explain

IMO most effort put into a troll of 2017

uk and australia are different countries.  bonus point, the uk is not even a country. bammm. free geography lesson.

for more info see www.google.com and fill in the gaps that school is missing (or missed?)

certainly out there.  but at least he put some effort in and is adding to the forum.

i would agree with holman and brandan "عنصري العضو التناسلي النسوي" santalab.  maybe brosque. but no one else on that list. 

holman i think has been particularly effective.  and he has energy, experience and enthusiasm.

probability of us winning  in the coming match is 30% draw 50% loss 20%

Both Holman and Oar came in underdone. I don't think they have been near marquee form for this year, but am pleased for them to step up next year. We have the makings of a reasonable team again. Shall be interesting to see what visa players are bought in.