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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xI'm going to illustrate the three formations which can easily be interchanged on the pitch within the same half, that Ange has failed to do. The defensive midfield 4-3-3: X....................X...................X.................X .................X...............................X ...............................X X............................X.............................X To make the 3-4-3 midfield diamond, a coach can also be termed the 4-3-3 with a 3:1 back four, the two FBs tuck in a bit and one CB plays in front of the other: ....X......................X...................X ............................X ..............X.......................X ...........................X X........................X.....................X To move from the 4-3-3 defensive midfield triangle to the 4-3-3 attacking midfield triangle, the midfield triangle can be inverted. One DM , or number 6, becomes a twin number 10 or twin attacking AM: X..................X.....................X.................X ................................X .................X..............................X X..............................X..........................X The defensive midfield triangle can also be changed to a 4-2-3-1 with the two wingers moving back in a line with the number 10. The attacking midfield triangle version of the 4-3-3 can also become a 4-5-1 or 4-1-4-1, with the two wingers moving back in a line with the twin attacking mids. Yeah once he went to a midfield box he couldn't switch the midfield triangle when we were ahead. Its a small change, so it should be no big deal to implement it. But perhaps ante felt considering our defensive frailties that dominating territory and going for more goals was a better defense given what we had in personnel From the 3-4-2-1, it is difficult to change shape, particularly to ones the players have played a lot at club level and underage football. he really tried to think outside the box (pardon the pun) to cover for four facts 1. that we don't have great fullbacks (although i think gersbach provides a decent option and behich is decent but they both play on the left) 2. our wingers are decent but weak finishers (though not bad defensively) 3. We find it difficult to break a team down with a single number 10. Also our 10s are our best finishers. Its difficult to consistently score enough goals without 2 10s 4. We are defensively too fragile to risk playing without 2 6's I think at club level he prefers more conventional methods But all it did was create new and more sever problems, with the formation we started with in this qualifying campaign we were in the box seat to qualify for the world cup and we looked comfortable in doing so. We change it at a crucial point and we have immensely struggled since, the change to 3 at the back has cost us automatic qualification. I think you are right. At the beginning we were playing the 4-3-3 attacking midfield triangle. The big issue here was that Milligan was often benched, while Jedi was the sole screener. Ange should've played combos of the attacking midfield 4-3-3 and the defensive midfield 4-3-3 in the same game. To his credit at times Ange rotated the triangle, particularly when Milligan played. It worked out quite well, but then Ange wanted to accommodate Mooy and Rogic playing in the same team as attacking mids. With the gift of hindsight he could've rotated the midfield triangle from Mooy...................Milligan .............Rogic to ............Milligan Mooy...................Rogic Ange didn't though. For him Jedi is undroppable. Decentric you're really showing your inexperience as a performance based coach to continue to believe that players have to be constantly instructed to rotate in a midfield three. Players of a decent level dont need to be instructed constantly, the coach sets them out in a formation be it two holding, 6 and an 8, two 8's, two 10's, it is then up to these players to make the on field decision. Naturally the coach can also make adjustments in his team selections with his midfield players, particularly the more deep lying eg. Jedinaks naturally game is to hold, irvines to get forward, luongo and mooy to get on the ball etc etc. These aren't 12 year old kids You and I haven't coached professional players, but below that level they constantly make mistakes in most cases. Also, players vary greatly from individual to individual in terms of game sense. One needs to work a lot harder with some than others. Some intelligent players off the pitch, don't transfer their brains to the sports field. To coach a midfield to rotate from an attacking and defensive midfield triangle takes some work. I'd surmise you've never done it at this point in time in your coaching career to date. Game sense is one of the reasons you select certain players for certain situations. You're getting your back up because ive brought your knowledge of coaching at a decent level into question. You can surmise all you like but the fact of the matter is you have no knowledge of me as a coach or what i have done or achieved as a player or coach other than what ive told you myself. Again i put it to you that you dont need to constantly instruct players. Once you are coaching at a decent level you need to take a step back. At the end of the day if the players arent doing what you want them to do its either you've selected the wrong players or your pre game instructions weren't clear enough. The other alternative is that your players dont trust you and aren't buying into your vision. TD's are a protected species and its a cushy job for those who cant/wont put themselves on the sideline and take the pressure that comes with it. You know that I'm not getting my back up as I don't see other coaches as rivals. The more of us pursuing coach education and coaching the better IMO. Many others see other coaches as rivals. I don't. When it comes to coaching players at decent levels, I've had some input into NPL senior players of both genders, but I haven't coached them as a specific job with a particular team as a long term assignment over a season. There are two different schools of thought, within the Dutch/Ajax/Barca methodology. They are exemplified in the Cruyff school or the Van Gaal school. Both have their merits. Van Gaal has been a more successful coach, but few can emulate his style. Your philosophy is closer to Cruyff's. As I surmised you haven't coached a rotating midfield triangle - yet.
It is possible that you've coached players with better game sense than me. As you know I wish you every success in your coaching. You've helped me out big time with some sensible ideas in liaising with other club coaches as a rep coach. I have, i just choose not to use it these days. I prefer my teams to be more structured in the middle and defensive third allowing more fluidity in the final third
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New Signing
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xI'm going to illustrate the three formations which can easily be interchanged on the pitch within the same half, that Ange has failed to do. The defensive midfield 4-3-3: X....................X...................X.................X .................X...............................X ...............................X X............................X.............................X To make the 3-4-3 midfield diamond, a coach can also be termed the 4-3-3 with a 3:1 back four, the two FBs tuck in a bit and one CB plays in front of the other: ....X......................X...................X ............................X ..............X.......................X ...........................X X........................X.....................X To move from the 4-3-3 defensive midfield triangle to the 4-3-3 attacking midfield triangle, the midfield triangle can be inverted. One DM , or number 6, becomes a twin number 10 or twin attacking AM: X..................X.....................X.................X ................................X .................X..............................X X..............................X..........................X The defensive midfield triangle can also be changed to a 4-2-3-1 with the two wingers moving back in a line with the number 10. The attacking midfield triangle version of the 4-3-3 can also become a 4-5-1 or 4-1-4-1, with the two wingers moving back in a line with the twin attacking mids. Yeah once he went to a midfield box he couldn't switch the midfield triangle when we were ahead. Its a small change, so it should be no big deal to implement it. But perhaps ante felt considering our defensive frailties that dominating territory and going for more goals was a better defense given what we had in personnel From the 3-4-2-1, it is difficult to change shape, particularly to ones the players have played a lot at club level and underage football. he really tried to think outside the box (pardon the pun) to cover for four facts 1. that we don't have great fullbacks (although i think gersbach provides a decent option and behich is decent but they both play on the left) 2. our wingers are decent but weak finishers (though not bad defensively) 3. We find it difficult to break a team down with a single number 10. Also our 10s are our best finishers. Its difficult to consistently score enough goals without 2 10s 4. We are defensively too fragile to risk playing without 2 6's I think at club level he prefers more conventional methods But all it did was create new and more sever problems, with the formation we started with in this qualifying campaign we were in the box seat to qualify for the world cup and we looked comfortable in doing so. We change it at a crucial point and we have immensely struggled since, the change to 3 at the back has cost us automatic qualification. I think you are right. At the beginning we were playing the 4-3-3 attacking midfield triangle. The big issue here was that Milligan was often benched, while Jedi was the sole screener. Ange should've played combos of the attacking midfield 4-3-3 and the defensive midfield 4-3-3 in the same game. To his credit at times Ange rotated the triangle, particularly when Milligan played. It worked out quite well, but then Ange wanted to accommodate Mooy and Rogic playing in the same team as attacking mids. With the gift of hindsight he could've rotated the midfield triangle from Mooy...................Milligan .............Rogic to ............Milligan Mooy...................Rogic Ange didn't though. For him Jedi is undroppable. Decentric you're really showing your inexperience as a performance based coach to continue to believe that players have to be constantly instructed to rotate in a midfield three. Players of a decent level dont need to be instructed constantly, the coach sets them out in a formation be it two holding, 6 and an 8, two 8's, two 10's, it is then up to these players to make the on field decision. Naturally the coach can also make adjustments in his team selections with his midfield players, particularly the more deep lying eg. Jedinaks naturally game is to hold, irvines to get forward, luongo and mooy to get on the ball etc etc. These aren't 12 year old kids You and I haven't coached professional players, but below that level they constantly make mistakes in most cases. Also, players vary greatly from individual to individual in terms of game sense. One needs to work a lot harder with some than others. Some intelligent players off the pitch, don't transfer their brains to the sports field. To coach a midfield to rotate from an attacking and defensive midfield triangle takes some work. I'd surmise you've never done it at this point in time in your coaching career to date. Game sense is one of the reasons you select certain players for certain situations. You're getting your back up because ive brought your knowledge of coaching at a decent level into question. You can surmise all you like but the fact of the matter is you have no knowledge of me as a coach or what i have done or achieved as a player or coach other than what ive told you myself. Again i put it to you that you dont need to constantly instruct players. Once you are coaching at a decent level you need to take a step back. At the end of the day if the players arent doing what you want them to do its either you've selected the wrong players or your pre game instructions weren't clear enough. The other alternative is that your players dont trust you and aren't buying into your vision. TD's are a protected species and its a cushy job for those who cant/wont put themselves on the sideline and take the pressure that comes with it. You know that Those are good points, I can vouch for you there, As a coach myself (coached in Azerbaijan, Moldova, among others and am now a GK coach in the Eerste divisie) There's only so much you can instruct a player, however, I will let you know from experience, that whole "players aren't buying into your vision or your pre game instructions weren't clear" argument isnt working for me, sit down and watch any top level coach, they are always on the sideline making adjustments, telling g players where to be, who to pass it to, who to mark, players aren't robots, they're human, particularly when fatigued. You never see a top coach taking a "step back". If you think a TD is a cushy job, I'd hate to see you in Europe. You've never seen players lose faith in a manager? As i mentioned in my reply to 'The Fans', coaches and managers at higher levels rarely provide constant 'do this, go there, pass here' instruction from the sideline. Instruction is more like 'Look to play forward quicker, sit a little deeper' does that make sense? We aren't in Europe. I'm yet to see a TD in australia that is earning their money
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jas88
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+x+xAnge wants to help change the culture of Australian football from long ball to a possession based (possession which is not just for the sake of possession) game. I've been involved in the C and B licence courses and the whole idea is that if we implement this style of football throughout Australia, we'll eventually have players who are technically and tactically good enough to play football under pressure without having to send it up the field every time an opponent gets near them. It's obvious that the formation isn't helping our situation BUT at the end of the day, do we have the players to do much? Mooy is the only player that has really grown in the last year or two. Luongo is still in the lower leagues of England, Ryan can't find a club where he'll regularly start, half our guys are struggling to play for clubs in below average leagues in Europe and Asia. What do people expect from Ange? We expect to play a kind of football the players will excel at. Not force them to play a way that have trouble playing. Identify how Mooy excels and replicate that. Identify how Juric scores and replicate that. And so on. Have eg Rogic, Leckie and Gersbach play to help Mooy and Jurics games. Use Tommy more as a target player and fark the ball up field every now and then. Leckie is fast, look for him to gain from Jurics work. I find it comical that Maty Ryan doesn't look for Leckie more, the guy was receiving the ball every goal kick when at Ingolstadt.. I swear its like Ange purposely doesn't watch these guys play.
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hotrod
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A bit like when Scotty McDonald was scoring for fun in the SPL, gets into the NT and then looks like a duck out of water. He scored in the SPL probably due to the way the front third was structured, gets to the NT and then asked to do something different. Seems to be a common theme, unless you a Cahill.
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aussie scott21
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Val Migliaccio, Soccer Writer, The Advertiser LEGENDARY Socceroos coach Rale Rasic says Ange Postecoglou will “sack himself” if he doesn’t remodify his ways. After becoming the first Australian coach to lead the Socceroos to a FIFA World Cup in 1974 with a group of part-time players Rasic is worried now the nation must qualify for Russia next year via four stressful play off matches. “If he continues to go the way he is going at the moment, he will sack himself,” Rasic said. “He has to change. “There is naievity. “When (ex Socceroos coach) Holger Osieck qualified for the last World Cup he got the sack. “The question is now, I think the football federation (Australia) thinks from a financial point of view rather than a reality check.” The Socceroos first play off match is a potential banana skin, away to Syria in Malacca, Malaysia on October 5 before the return leg in Sydney five days later. If the Socceroos win that clash on aggregate, in November they will face the fourth-placed nation - home-and-away from CONCACEF - the US which hasn’t missed any of the seven World Cups since 1990. Postecoglou has been under severe scrutiny since Australia missed direct qualification to Russia. Former Socceroos Mark Bosnich and Robbie Slater have been the most vocal critics with the pair advocating for change on the Australian bench after the 2-1 win over Thailand on September 5 while former Australia captain John Kosmina believes removing Postecoglou is pointless. The Socceroos finished third in Asia’s Group B, on equal points but with an inferior goal difference to second-placed Saudi Arabia while Japan ended the campaign a point above the two nations. But Australia losing 2-0 to Japan on August 31 riled Rasic. “No-one has outplayed us more than Japan, we’re not in the same class,’’ Rasic said. “The team is not always the 11 best players, it’s the 11 best solutions.” Rasic also declared his disappointment after Postecouglou slammed the “garbage” criticism of his side at the post-match press conference after the win over Thailand. The Socceroos boss seemingly became frustrated with the line of questioning before ending the media conference abruptly. “I don’t think the homework has been done properly,’’ Rasic said. “Something is wrong, the body language, it shows something is not right. “I have been a national coach for so long and I can tell you one thing, you cannot walk out of any press conference, you can’t do it. “Once you walk from the press conference, the media is your biggest enemy for life. “It’s very difficult now, club coaching is different to the national team. “The national team is man management, not coaching.
Ange will “sack himself:” Rasic | Adelaide Now
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slipperypigeon
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Just getting this thread nice and warm for tonight.
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griff1
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+xJust getting this thread nice and warm for tonight. We'll see what people say if we have a good result. A lot of people seem to flip-flop based on results.
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RedKat
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Arnie to coach Sydney to a big blue then take over for the second leg?
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The Fans
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.
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HeyItsRobbie
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Bundoora B
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+xA bit like when Scotty McDonald was scoring for fun in the SPL, gets into the NT and then looks like a duck out of water. He scored in the SPL probably due to the way the front third was structured, gets to the NT and then asked to do something different. Seems to be a common theme, unless you a Cahill. cahill will score in any team if he is allowed to push forward. he is a class above.
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vincenzogold
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I think Arnie is ready. He suits international management.
He has shown he is a quality manager and can adapt to different situations.
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Angus
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+xI think Arnie is ready. He suits international management. He has shown he is a quality manager and can adapt to different situations. I don't think Arnie will suit the national job. He builds team success over the long haul and based a lot on a long term build up in specific fitness training. He took a full season to hit his straps at both CCM and SFC and wasn't able to make the short term +ve changes needed to ensure he kept his Japanese job. I don't think he is adaptable in his methodology and that methodology is highly suited to club football and not translatable to representative football. I do think he will eventually make a fantastic higher league club manager.
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Angus
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Having said that, I would like Arnie's current formation to be the NT's.
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Bitedge
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When I saw the socceroos indecisive play and lack of enthusiasm in last night's game against Syria I wondered if Ange has lost the dressing room. If we play poorly but scrape through with a 0-0 draw or win on penalties in the 2nd leg it would be a good time to change coaches before the intercontinental playoffs. If we win well, like 3-1, I guess he is safe.
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slipperypigeon
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Brad Smith starting.
That should be a stackable offense.
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RedKat
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+x+xI think Arnie is ready. He suits international management. He has shown he is a quality manager and can adapt to different situations. I don't think Arnie will suit the national job. He builds team success over the long haul and based a lot on a long term build up in specific fitness training. He took a full season to hit his straps at both CCM and SFC and wasn't able to make the short term +ve changes needed to ensure he kept his Japanese job. I don't think he is adaptable in his methodology and that methodology is highly suited to club football and not translatable to representative football. I do think he will eventually make a fantastic higher league club manager. Arnie actually hit the ground running. Taking us to a final the season after Farina was an absolute miracle. Then he completely lost his way the second season before sorting it out in the third.
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Crusader
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Brad Fucking Smith. Touch of a rapist.
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Mr B
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Mr B
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Muz
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LOL. Not yet.
Member since 2008.
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Mr B
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George_Worst
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Win or lose, I don't want him in charge after tonight. I have been his staunchest supporter but this is beyond a joke.
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RedKat
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So thats draws against Iraq, Thailand, Saudi Arabia and Syria x2
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A16Man
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Can't believe how tactically naive and arrogant we've become. Ange has completely compromised his beliefs which got him the job and brought him initial success.
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Kamaryn
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+xWin or lose, I don't want him in charge after tonight. I have been his staunchest supporter but this is beyond a joke.
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Mr B
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Timmy does save Ange after all I guess.
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paulbagzFC
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Would still punt him before the WC lol -PB
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Crusader
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That was terrible. We need Jedinak back and a new coach.
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A16Man
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