Australian General Cricket Discussion


Australian General Cricket Discussion

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One of my pet hates is that we constantly prepare for Test series by playing limited overs. Our batsmen and bowlers need to be involved in the same game situations as they will encounter in a four day or five day red ball match. This year there are 5 Shield games before the first India Test instead of the usual 3. Now this would be a perfect chance for our Test boys to get a complete red ball Test prep. But no..most are going to be involved in a meaningless ODI series against the Saffers. Someone tell me when is our cricket boss (CA) going to put Test cricket ahead of the mitey dollar.
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Agree with you, Baggers.

All the ACB care about is money from the meaningless limited over series.
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Keyboard Warrior - 20 Oct 2018 7:49 PM
Agree with you, Baggers. All the ACB care about is money from the meaningless limited over series.

I have moved this from Test thread as you guys may have missed it.

Now the recriminations and post mortems begin. The selectors will determine who from this squad will turn out for the India series. 
 Lets run a report card on this team .


Usman Khawaja - PASS  9/10
Aaron Finch -PASS  8/10
Shaun Marsh- FAIL. 3/10
Mitch Marsh - FAIL. 4/10
Travis Head- PASS  7/10
Marnus Labuchagne- PASS  8/10
Tim Paine - PASS  7/10
Mitchell Starc - FAIL  4/10
Peter Siddle- FAIL  4/10
Nathon Lyon - PASS  8/10
John Holland - FAIL.
4/10


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Early days but this is my prelim squad for India Test series.

Finch
Renshaw
Khawaja (if fit)
Labuchagne
Head
M Marsh
Paine (c)
Starc
Cummins
Lyon
Hazlewood
Res: Weatherald, Jhye Richardson, Agar, Wildermuth.

If Khawaja is omitted and SOS dropped I am opting for an experienced replacement such as Callum Ferguson or George Bailey in the middle order.



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baggygreenmania - 20 Oct 2018 4:05 PM
One of my pet hates is that we constantly prepare for Test series by playing limited overs. Our batsmen and bowlers need to be involved in the same game situations as they will encounter in a four day or five day red ball match. This year there are 5 Shield games before the first India Test instead of the usual 3. Now this would be a perfect chance for our Test boys to get a complete red ball Test prep. But no..most are going to be involved in a meaningless ODI series against the Saffers. Someone tell me when is our cricket boss (CA) going to put Test cricket ahead of the mitey dollar.
Comments.

Baggers

I was just thinking this today, Baggers.

Shaun Marsh is ostensibly being given a chance to prove himself as worthy for Test cricket this  summer by playing ODIs! It doesn't  make sense.
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baggygreenmania - 20 Oct 2018 4:05 PM
 This year there are 5 Shield games before the first India Test instead of the usual 3. Now this would be a perfect chance for our Test boys to get a complete red ball Test prep. But no..most are going to be involved in a meaningless ODI series against the Saffers. Someone tell me when is our cricket boss (CA) going to put Test cricket ahead of the mitey dollar.


CA will certainly blame players and the whole team if they fail - not CA's scheduling.
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baggygreenmania - 21 Oct 2018 11:54 AM
Early days but this is my prelim squad for India Test series.

Finch
Renshaw
Khawaja (if fit)
Labuchagne
Head
M Marsh
Paine (c)
Starc
Cummins
Lyon
Hazlewood
Res: Weatherald, Jhye Richardson, Agar, Wildermuth.

If Khawaja is omitted and SOS dropped I am opting for an experienced replacement such as Callum Ferguson or George Bailey in the middle order.



I wouldn't have Labu batting at 4.

I'd have Maxwell in there somewhere.

It would be prudent to look at a pace bowler to do some of the donkey work - a bowler who can blow quite a few overs without putting too much stress on the body.

Jackson Bird seems to have inexplicably been overlooked. 

Gabe Bell is a bit inexperienced but has had injury issues already. He has taken a lot of wickets though.

Trent Copeland might fit the bill too.

I was impressed with Neser last year at Bellerive.



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showing the career first class averages of our best players shows how dire things are without our top two

smith 57.27
Warner 48.63

Will Pucovski 52 (few matches)
khawaja 44.32
Lynne 43.53
maxwell 41.07
C White 40.34
marsh 40.21 (declining)
renshaw 40.18

rest below 40. Did I miss any

Burns 39.75
head 39.64
lehman 39.46
Bailey 39.33
Handscomb 38.81
ferguson 38.77
neville 38.47
bancroft 38.35
head 36.94
cartwright 36.79
finch 36.58
labu 33.83
stoinis 33.03
M Marsh 31.54

Selectors have been selecting based on one day form, having marsh as your last name and not maxwell, or recent shield form. This is insane, there is no evidence that one day form translates to 5 day form. Also short term form almost never translates because it takes 20 or so tests to aclimatize to test cricket by which time your first class form is gone. You should select players based on CAREER average only

Now if Will Puk isn't a flash in the pan you can make a decent top 6 if everyone is available and you don't insist  on an all rounder. In contrast to a few years ago you can make a full team with 1st class averages over 40. But we definitely miss our top two and we are almost certainly going to select a team that is well below our best.

Does anyone know if I missed any notable first class averages?
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just realized shaun marsh got selected at the expense of hodge who was averaging 55 at test and 48 in first class

unbelievable how much favoritism the marsh brothers have gotten
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Oh how true JL. https://www.cricket.com.au/news/justin-langer-australia-batting-technique-footwork-pakistan-test-series/2018-10-21
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Decentric - 21 Oct 2018 11:36 PM
baggygreenmania - 21 Oct 2018 11:54 AM

I wouldn't have Labu batting at 4.

I'd have Maxwell in there somewhere.

It would be prudent to look at a pace bowler to do some of the donkey work - a bowler who can blow quite a few overs without putting too much stress on the body.

Jackson Bird seems to have inexplicably been overlooked. 

Gabe Bell is a bit inexperienced but has had injury issues already. He has taken a lot of wickets though.

Trent Copeland might fit the bill too.

I was impressed with Neser last year at Bellerive.



DC are you Maxies promotions manager?:P

CA will wanna see a consistent start to the Shield from him. Has he been picked in the Saffer ODI series. If so then he is not going get a lot of red ball cricket before the First Test.

Starc, Cummins, Haze, Lyon.. where is the room for the "donkey"? 

I wanna see Trent Copeland make the ODI WC squad. They just keep on picking the same old duds. Other than Tye non of those blokes for the Saffer ODIs have the faintest clue how to bowl in limited overs. Even Hazlewood is not the complete ODI bowler despite having a good record. He still tends to go for runs in the death overs. Tye and Kane Richardson have been our best death bowlers over the years. Why was Richo given a CA Contract if he is not handed any game time????? Those two ..with Starc and or Haze/ Trent Copeland/Thye Richardson would be my WC pace attack.

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ugh but I hate blaming white ball cricket

every country plays white ball. That doesn't explain why we are doing worse than those other countries

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baggygreenmania - 22 Oct 2018 10:50 AM
Decentric - 21 Oct 2018 11:36 PM

DC are you Maxies promotions manager?:P

CA will wanna see a consistent start to the Shield from him. Has he been picked in the Saffer ODI series. If so then he is not going get a lot of red ball cricket before the First Test.

I'd like to see Maxwell average 120 in the shield but its absurd to leave him out when he has the 5th best shield average and is a decent off spin bowler and fielder. 

He has a higher shield average than any player selected in the UAE bar Khawaja. He may not be as consistent as our golden gen. But he is more consistent than many that are currently lining up in the shield
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grazorblade - 22 Oct 2018 3:01 AM
showing the career first class averages of our best players shows how dire things are without our top two

smith 57.27
Warner 48.63

Will Pucovski 52 (few matches)
khawaja 44.32
maxwell 41.07
C White 40.34
marsh 40.21 (declining)
renshaw 40.18

rest below 40. Did I miss any

Burns 39.75
head 39.64
lehman 39.46
Bailey 39.33
Handscomb 38.81
ferguson 38.77
neville 38.47
bancroft 38.35
head 36.94
cartwright 36.79
finch 36.58
labu 33.83
stoinis 33.03
M Marsh 31.54

Selectors have been selecting based on one day form, having marsh as your last name and not maxwell, or recent shield form. This is insane, there is no evidence that one day form translates to 5 day form. Also short term form almost never translates because it takes 20 or so tests to aclimatize to test cricket by which time your first class form is gone. You should select players based on CAREER average only

Now if Will Puk isn't a flash in the pan you can make a decent top 6 if everyone is available and you don't insist  on an all rounder. In contrast to a few years ago you can make a full team with 1st class averages over 40. But we definitely miss our top two and we are almost certainly going to select a team that is well below our best.

Does anyone know if I missed any notable first class averages?

Evidently M Marsh has been averaging @35 from his last 9 matches since his return to Tests. Even that is below par for someone of his experience. This India series is ultra important for him if he is to make the Ashes squad which I believe will be a defining series for his career. 

Selectors have been selecting based on one day form, having marsh as your last name and not maxwell, or recent shield form. This is insane, there is no evidence that one day form translates to 5 day form.[quote]
I totally agree with this. Cartwright has been on a downward trend. Not that long ago he was in the over @40 av bracket. I often wondered why Bear White never played more Test cricket. His FC average is more than respectable. Wrong place wrong time I expect. @29.9 Test av did not make the cut back in 2008.


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grazorblade - 22 Oct 2018 10:50 AM

ugh but I hate blaming white ball cricket

every country plays white ball. That doesn't explain why we are doing worse than those other countries

JL is talking about red ball cricket was my take. Did I miss something?
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baggygreenmania - 22 Oct 2018 11:02 AM
[quote]
grazorblade - 22 Oct 2018 3:01 AM

Evidently M Marsh has been averaging @35 from his last 9 matches since his return to Tests. Even that is below par for someone of his experience. This India series is ultra important for him if he is to make the Ashes squad which I believe will be a defining series for his career. 

Selectors have been selecting based on one day form, having marsh as your last name and not maxwell, or recent shield form. This is insane, there is no evidence that one day form translates to 5 day form.

I totally agree with this. Cartwright has been on a downward trend. Not that long ago he was in the over @40 av bracket. I often wondered why Bear White never played more Test cricket. His FC average is more than respectable. Wrong place wrong time I expect. @29.9 Test av did not make the cut back in 2008.


yeah white definitely has an average that shows he is good enough to have played a lot more tests
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baggygreenmania - 22 Oct 2018 11:11 AM
grazorblade - 22 Oct 2018 10:50 AM

JL is talking about red ball cricket was my take. Did I miss something?

yeah so he critiqued the lack of footwork and technique but then said the problem is players stand and deliver now with white ball cricket

I'm sensitive to it because I think there is a tendency to blame white ball cricket for our current technical woes rather than looking at our development. Every country has whiteball but most of them have if anything improved technically over the last decade
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grazorblade - 22 Oct 2018 10:56 AM
baggygreenmania - 22 Oct 2018 10:50 AM
I'd like to see Maxwell average 120 in the shield but its absurd to leave him out when he has the 5th best shield average and is a decent off spin bowler and fielder. 

He has a higher shield average than any player selected in the UAE bar Khawaja. He may not be as consistent as our golden gen. But he is more consistent than many that are currently lining up in the shield

 Maxie once got my vote too. We said he was a match winner. But he kept letting us down. Yes he averages @41..inflated me thinks by his number of not outs. Of his almost 60 FC games or 100 innings he has passed 50 only 27 times.. his conversion rate from 50 to 100 is also moderate. CA wants consistent red ball runs from him. He has not delivered that in the past.  How is he expected to achieve that here in the present when he is playing white ball cricket instead. This goes for other fringe players too. Ludicrous!!!
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grazorblade - 22 Oct 2018 3:01 AM
showing the career first class averages of our best players shows how dire things are without our top two

smith 57.27
Warner 48.63

Will Pucovski 52 (few matches)
khawaja 44.32
maxwell 41.07
C White 40.34
marsh 40.21 (declining)
renshaw 40.18

rest below 40. Did I miss any

Burns 39.75
head 39.64
lehman 39.46
Bailey 39.33
Handscomb 38.81
ferguson 38.77
neville 38.47
bancroft 38.35
head 36.94
cartwright 36.79
finch 36.58
labu 33.83
stoinis 33.03
M Marsh 31.54

Selectors have been selecting based on one day form, having marsh as your last name and not maxwell, or recent shield form. This is insane, there is no evidence that one day form translates to 5 day form. Also short term form almost never translates because it takes 20 or so tests to aclimatize to test cricket by which time your first class form is gone. You should select players based on CAREER average only

Now if Will Puk isn't a flash in the pan you can make a decent top 6 if everyone is available and you don't insist  on an all rounder. In contrast to a few years ago you can make a full team with 1st class averages over 40. But we definitely miss our top two and we are almost certainly going to select a team that is well below our best.

Does anyone know if I missed any notable first class averages?

Like most people the one that is missing is Chris Lynn FC average 41 games 71 innings for an average of 43.5. Like everyone else his FC average is underplayed and he has been pigeon-holed as a T20 batsman, which is totally wrong. He doesn't even have a CA contract, but is probably one of the most talented batsmen Australia has. Just behind Khawaja. One for myself to watch in Jake Lehmann now with 39 games under his belt, it should be time for him to start producing.
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grazorblade - 22 Oct 2018 11:18 AM
baggygreenmania - 22 Oct 2018 11:11 AM

yeah so he critiqued the lack of footwork and technique but then said the problem is players stand and deliver now with white ball cricket

I'm sensitive to it because I think there is a tendency to blame white ball cricket for our current technical woes rather than looking at our development. Every country has whiteball but most of them have if anything improved technically over the last decade

I now see your point.  I am in total accordance with that. I am often bemoaning the fact that our best juniors are weened on white ball cricket.. prime example being our age nationals.. all 50 over affairs. The only time they see a red ball is in Premier Cricket. The bottom line as I see it..is an over abundance of white ball cricket has got us into red ball bad habits. You take a a look at the number of UAE dismissals.. on both sides.. that were white ball shots. 
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MikeR - 22 Oct 2018 11:51 AM
grazorblade - 22 Oct 2018 3:01 AM

Like most people the one that is missing is Chris Lynn FC average 41 games 71 innings for an average of 43.5. Like everyone else his FC average is underplayed and he has been pigeon-holed as a T20 batsman, which is totally wrong. He doesn't even have a CA contract, but is probably one of the most talented batsmen Australia has. Just behind Khawaja. One for myself to watch in Jake Lehmann now with 39 games under his belt, it should be time for him to start producing.

To be honest I am surprised Lynny has played that many FC games. Again a poor conversion rate.. passed 50 only 18 times out of  71 innings. His massive 250 and not outs inflates that average too. I would put he and Maxie in the same pigeon hole. Immensely naturally talented.. but inconsistent. Both of them have to be in our T20 WC team.. specially Lynny. Woulds also love to see George Bailey return as our ODI skipper for the WC. Also room for Bear.. or has he done his dash?

Lehmann remains promising. Has one good season and one moderate one. Reckon selectors may be looking for him to string together good consecutive seasons.
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The reason that Australia continues to pick M Marsh is that there is a problem with recent Australian bowlers being consistent wicket takers. In the past most bowlers that have long term careers took wickets around 2.2 per innings, which along with an occasional runout and part time bowler chipping in they could consistently bowl sides out
Legends of the game are over 2.3 such as 
Lillee 2.7
McDermott 2.34
McGrath 2.31
even more recent Johnson (2.24) and Harris (2.17)

Currently Cummins is the only one with an exceptional stat at 2.5 from 14 tests
Starc 2.16 is OK
Lyon 2.07 is not bad for a spinner
Hazlewood 2.01 is below average
Bird 2.00 but only played 9 tests
Siddle 1.78 is poor

While this stat remains the way it is Australia becomes more reliant on getting wickets from "all-rounders". Thus why Australia is consistently picking M Marsh even though it weakens the batting line up. Glenn Maxwell with a FC bowling average of 44 seems to be a hindrance for his selection. They seem to be more interested in supporting a inept bowling attack rather than changing the bowlers and bringing in a batsman at 6 which Australia does need to do currently as batting strength is a problem. Burns should be the Number 6 that is where he started his career in national colours and he did a good job, freeing up the openers for Finch and Renshaw, removing both Marsh brothers from the equation, and possibly playing a youthful player at 5 with the knowledge that there is support after him. But currently the bowling attack is struggling to bowl quality sides out and selectors are reacting wrongly.


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baggygreenmania - 22 Oct 2018 11:25 AM
grazorblade - 22 Oct 2018 10:56 AM

 Maxie once got my vote too. We said he was a match winner. But he kept letting us down. Yes he averages @41..inflated me thinks by his number of not outs. Of his almost 60 FC games or 100 innings he has passed 50 only 27 times.. his conversion rate from 50 to 100 is also moderate. CA wants consistent red ball runs from him. He has not delivered that in the past.  How is he expected to achieve that here in the present when he is playing white ball cricket instead. This goes for other fringe players too. Ludicrous!!!

27 from 100 is pretty typical for an average of 41 (Marsh has a slightly lower 1st class average and a slightly low number of scores above fifty)

41 is never going to be a world beater but its better than our alternatives

perhaps selectors are waiting for him to become a match winner rather than just better than alternatives. 
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baggygreenmania - 22 Oct 2018 12:02 PM
grazorblade - 22 Oct 2018 11:18 AM

I now see your point.  I am in total accordance with that. I am often bemoaning the fact that our best juniors are weened on white ball cricket.. prime example being our age nationals.. all 50 over affairs. The only time they see a red ball is in Premier Cricket. The bottom line as I see it..is an over abundance of white ball cricket has got us into red ball bad habits. You take a a look at the number of UAE dismissals.. on both sides.. that were white ball shots. 

I wonder how other countries have adapted to the changing game and continue to develop great red ball cricketers. We probably need to look abroad for this
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cheers added lynn
Lynn makes a big difference
So will Will Puk if he kicks on
smith warner khawaja lynn maxwell and renshaw/puk have the makings of a competitive top 6
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MikeR - 22 Oct 2018 12:33 PM
The reason that Australia continues to pick M Marsh is that there is a problem with recent Australian bowlers being consistent wicket takers. In the past most bowlers that have long term careers took wickets around 2.2 per innings, which along with an occasional runout and part time bowler chipping in they could consistently bowl sides out
Legends of the game are over 2.3 such as 
Lillee 2.7
McDermott 2.34
McGrath 2.31
even more recent Johnson (2.24) and Harris (2.17)

Currently Cummins is the only one with an exceptional stat at 2.5 from 14 tests
Starc 2.16 is OK
Lyon 2.07 is not bad for a spinner
Hazlewood 2.01 is below average
Bird 2.00 but only played 9 tests
Siddle 1.78 is poor

While this stat remains the way it is Australia becomes more reliant on getting wickets from "all-rounders". Thus why Australia is consistently picking M Marsh even though it weakens the batting line up. Glenn Maxwell with a FC bowling average of 44 seems to be a hindrance for his selection. They seem to be more interested in supporting a inept bowling attack rather than changing the bowlers and bringing in a batsman at 6 which Australia does need to do currently as batting strength is a problem. Burns should be the Number 6 that is where he started his career in national colours and he did a good job, freeing up the openers for Finch and Renshaw, removing both Marsh brothers from the equation, and possibly playing a youthful player at 5 with the knowledge that there is support after him. But currently the bowling attack is struggling to bowl quality sides out and selectors are reacting wrongly.


We have less remarkable individuals but seem to have a remarkable bowling team though even without all rounders

mcgrath was very good getting 2.3 an over

but if you compare our current bowling team with our golden gen its not that difference
Mcgrath 2.3
Gillespe 1.89
Lee 2.07/ fleming 1.97 / bichel 1.56/ kasper 1.54
Warne 2.59
total=8.85/8.45/8.34/8.32

Today our best is
lyon 2.07
cummins 2.54
starc 2.16
hazelwood 2.01
total=8.78

so our total is only currently inferior to the best we have seen lately if you include our absolute best combination and then only by 0.07 wickets an innings


Edited
Last Year by grazorblade
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MikeR - 22 Oct 2018 12:33 PM
The reason that Australia continues to pick M Marsh is that there is a problem with recent Australian bowlers being consistent wicket takers. In the past most bowlers that have long term careers took wickets around 2.2 per innings, which along with an occasional runout and part time bowler chipping in they could consistently bowl sides out
Legends of the game are over 2.3 such as 
Lillee 2.7
McDermott 2.34
McGrath 2.31
even more recent Johnson (2.24) and Harris (2.17)

Currently Cummins is the only one with an exceptional stat at 2.5 from 14 tests
Starc 2.16 is OK
Lyon 2.07 is not bad for a spinner
Hazlewood 2.01 is below average
Bird 2.00 but only played 9 tests
Siddle 1.78 is poor

While this stat remains the way it is Australia becomes more reliant on getting wickets from "all-rounders". Thus why Australia is consistently picking M Marsh even though it weakens the batting line up. Glenn Maxwell with a FC bowling average of 44 seems to be a hindrance for his selection. They seem to be more interested in supporting a inept bowling attack rather than changing the bowlers and bringing in a batsman at 6 which Australia does need to do currently as batting strength is a problem. Burns should be the Number 6 that is where he started his career in national colours and he did a good job, freeing up the openers for Finch and Renshaw, removing both Marsh brothers from the equation, and possibly playing a youthful player at 5 with the knowledge that there is support after him. But currently the bowling attack is struggling to bowl quality sides out and selectors are reacting wrongly.


Surprised DK is only 2.7. I would not have McDermott in the same breath as those two legends.

Mitch Marsh may have had an unhappy time on this UAE tour  but he does have a half decent Asian record. I would continue to pick a bloke who is is now averaging @35 with four centuries and a 96 since coming back to Test cricket.  After we all wrote him off as a dud investment he has  worked his bum off to improve his game.. much like Uzzie has done. We will see the fruits of  Marsh's labor in the next 12 months or so. Then judge whether he should remain a part of this team or not. For mine Mitch outbowled both strike men in the UAE. As he gets fitter his bowling will only improve and he will remain a vital second change bowling option.
Edited
Last Year by baggygreenmania
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grazorblade - 22 Oct 2018 1:04 PM
cheers added lynn
Lynn makes a big difference
So will Will Puk if he kicks on
smith warner khawaja lynn maxwell and renshaw/puk have the makings of a competitive top 6

Warner may have a current lofty average but it is slowly descending. Has been for the past two years. Of that list Renshaw is my long term opener probably with Weatherald if he continues to improve. Tho I would prefer a right hander. Bancroft has technical issues to sort out.  Pucovski looks to be the best r/h prospect we have. I see your middle order as being very brittle other than the phenomenal Smith.
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Josh Hazlewood and Pat Cummins get another shot at some red ball practice today in Canberra when they turn out in the for the Blues Country boys against WA in a FL match.. If they are fit for this four day game.. why then are they not playing for the Blues on Thursday? Our attack needs some quality to back up Copeland. 

Also making a comeback from injury is Warriors gloveman Sam Whiteman.  Got a feeling Sam will have a battle on his hands taking back the gloves from Josh Inglis.
Edited
Last Year by baggygreenmania
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sadly david warner has declined recently but his average each year has been amongst our best. The middle order may be fragile but its the least fragile you can make at the moment
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