Electric cars


Electric cars

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Muz
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I love 'em, I like the idea of them,  I want one.  I wish we'd get on with it.

Here's a great youtube series by none other than 'Kryten' from Red Dwarf.  

https://www.youtube.com/user/fullychargedshow 



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Me too! 

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2017/09/the-dark-side-of-electric-cars-exploitative-labor-practices/

Muz
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Mate lets not buy clothes because in Cambodia workers are exploited.  There's shit practices no doubt but that's something that can be fixed and it doesn't take away from the fact these cars are the future.

https://www.esdnews.com.au/shell-workers-facing-shocking-exploitation-report-says/

http://www.industriall-union.org/shells-hidden-shame-contract-workers-on-the-poverty-line-in-nigeria

Also.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_the_petroleum_industry



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Edited
6 Months Ago by Munrubenmuz
Muz
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Did you know the fossil fuel industry is using the same lobbying tactics and sometimes the same lobbyists as the tobacco industry to quash progress in the field.

https://myelectriccar.com.au/whos-trying-to-kill-the-electric-car/

https://www.ft.com/content/3946f7f2-782a-11e7-a3e8-60495fe6ca71 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/apr/09/electric-cars-separating-the-facts-from-the-propaganda

https://insideevs.com/common-electric-car-myths-busted/

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/09/the-coalition-governments-newfound-war-on-electric-cars-is-very-strange



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Muz
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The other thing that blows my mind is that the technology for the fast chargers they are using all over Europe were designed and manufactured in Brisbane.

We're making the best chargers in the world and yet for some idiotic reason electric cars simply won't work in Australia.

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/bright-brisbane-sparks-charge-electric-cars-all-around-the-world-20180322-p4z5s0.html


Actually think about how far you travel every day. 

Besides professional drivers I would say most people would drive more than 400km in one go maybe twice a year.  Every single trip I have made in the last 6 months has been 350kms or less.  99% would have been 100k's or less.

There's some weird perception going on that everyone is about to head out the door next week and cross the Simpson desert.


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Munrubenmuz - 9 Apr 2019 3:08 PM
I love 'em, I like the idea of them,  I want one.  I wish we'd get on with it.

Me too. I'd love a Tesla but the infrastructure needs to be in place to make the decision worthwhile. It just isn't yet although it easily could be.

I've always thought some form of battery-swap system is the best way to go. Literally rock up at a station, drop off your nearly flat battery and get a fully charged one. 

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sydneyfc1987 - 9 Apr 2019 5:53 PM
Munrubenmuz - 9 Apr 2019 3:08 PM

Me too. I'd love a Tesla but the infrastructure needs to be in place to make the decision worthwhile. It just isn't yet although it easily could be.

I've always thought some form of battery-swap system is the best way to go. Literally rock up at a station, drop off your nearly flat battery and get a fully charged one. 

It's chicken and egg though isn't it.  The government doles out billions in the diesel rebate so I can't see why they can't spend a couple of hundred million to incentivise charging points and infrastructure. 


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Muz
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https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/the-fear-campaign-about-electric-cars-has-hit-a-new-level-of-utter-shamelessness-20190409-p51ch8.html

The fear campaign about electric cars has hit a new level of utter shamelessness

The phoney election campaign reached a new peak of phoney political rhetoric on Tuesday when a government minister stood with voters and vowed to defend them when Bill Shorten came to take their cars away.



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https://reneweconomy.com.au/battery-recycling-generate-billion-dollar-industry-australia-push-prices-62944/

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-06-27/where-3-million-electric-vehicle-batteries-will-go-when-they-retire

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-03/battery-reality-there-s-nothing-better-than-lithium-ion-coming-soon?srnd=hyperdrive



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Edited
6 Months Ago by Munrubenmuz
paulbagzFC
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But Craig Kelly said it's a daft idea!

-PB

https://i.imgur.com/batge7K.jpg

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Munrubenmuz - 9 Apr 2019 4:52 PM

Mate lets not buy clothes because in Cambodia workers are exploited.  There's shit practices no doubt but that's something that can be fixed and it doesn't take away from the fact these cars are the future.

https://www.esdnews.com.au/shell-workers-facing-shocking-exploitation-report-says/

http://www.industriall-union.org/shells-hidden-shame-contract-workers-on-the-poverty-line-in-nigeria

Also.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_the_petroleum_industry

Oh sorry, I also forgot to mention:

https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/aug/24/nickel-mining-hidden-environmental-cost-electric-cars-batteries

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/tibetans-in-anguish-as-chinese-mines-pollute-their-sacred-grasslands/2016/12/25/bb6aad06-63bc-11e6-b4d8-33e931b5a26d_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.b27e31f0861f

Lithium projects in Bolivia plan to displace 10's of thousands of people and cause environmental disaster to the region. 

Lithium is a finite resource in limited supply. How are you going to electrify the entire world's transport off that? Not possible. 

No safe way to recycle lithium-ion batteries - https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/aug/10/electric-cars-big-battery-waste-problem-lithium-recycling

Re: Fine Particle Emissions - Overall, it appears that EVs do not result in significant reductions of PM and therefore cannot be considered the single solution to urban air pollution. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780128117705000121

I could go on and on.....but yeah keep living in your Utopia that EV's are a silver bullet. 









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When did anyone ever say EV was a silver bullet though?

Thought, that on a whole, they were better than burning Petrol and Diesel.

-PB

https://i.imgur.com/batge7K.jpg

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Munrubenmuz - 9 Apr 2019 8:17 PM
sydneyfc1987 - 9 Apr 2019 5:53 PM

It's chicken and egg though isn't it.  The government doles out billions in the diesel rebate so I can't see why they can't spend a couple of hundred million to incentivise charging points and infrastructure. 

Well that's what they've done in Norway. Wont happen here though. 

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paulbagzFC - 10 Apr 2019 12:45 PM
When did anyone ever say EV was a silver bullet though?

Thought, that on a whole, they were better than burning Petrol and Diesel.

-PB

Better in what way? 

How does one even begin to measure that?
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We are so far behind. I feel embarrassed to talk about this topic. Hybrids and electrics are everywhere in Europe and the fear mongering in the face of actual evidence to the contrary to the arguments put forward is shocking.

In the Netherlands, charging stations were everywhere. 


Muz
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TheSelectFew - 10 Apr 2019 12:52 PM
We are so far behind. I feel embarrassed to talk about this topic. Hybrids and electrics are everywhere in Europe and the fear mongering in the face of actual evidence to the contrary to the arguments put forward is shocking.

In the Netherlands, charging stations were everywhere. 

You're not wrong.  Here's a perfect example of how they're embarrassing themselves.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/coalition-spends-millions-on-electric-vehicles-despite-claiming-labor-push-will-end-the-weekend-20190408-p51bz5.html

http://www.environment.gov.au/minister/taylor/media-releases/mr20181022.html



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Edited
6 Months Ago by Munrubenmuz
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Tesla vs V8 supercar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eGhjhx8O9M



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Muz
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socceroo_06 - 10 Apr 2019 12:52 PM
paulbagzFC - 10 Apr 2019 12:45 PM

Better in what way? 

How does one even begin to measure that?

Umm. 
Almost zero cost to run. 
Next to zero maintenance cost. 
Virtually nothing can break in them or need replacing. 
Charge them for free via your solar / battery setup at home. 
Use them as backup power for your house when they're connected to your house and the grid. 
Regenerative braking. 
Lower carbon emissions.

I'll add to this as more things come to mind.   


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socceroo_06 - 10 Apr 2019 12:44 PM
Munrubenmuz - 9 Apr 2019 4:52 PM

Lithium is a finite resource in limited supply. How are you going to electrify the entire world's transport off that? Not possible. 

No safe way to recycle lithium-ion batteries - https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/aug/10/electric-cars-big-battery-waste-problem-lithium-recycling

Re: Fine Particle Emissions - Overall, it appears that EVs do not result in significant reductions of PM and therefore cannot be considered the single solution to urban air pollution. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780128117705000121

I could go on and on.....but yeah keep living in your Utopia that EV's are a silver bullet. 


Hahaha.  Your article literally quotes projects they're undertaking to recycle these batteries.

Besides that did you know that oil is a 'FINITE' resource also?

But in case you can't read. 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-06-27/where-3-million-electric-vehicle-batteries-will-go-when-they-retire

https://reneweconomy.com.au/battery-recycling-generate-billion-dollar-industry-australia-push-prices-62944/


But there are literally thousands of examples of oil pollution and environmental degradation over the last 100 years.  I'm happy to put those up over the extraction of lithium every single day of the week. 

Australia has some of the biggest untapped rare earth metal deposits in the world.  This is a massive opportunity for us.


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Edited
6 Months Ago by Munrubenmuz
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Electric Hilux coming.  https://performancedrive.com.au/electrified-toyota-hilux-coming-around-2025-part-aggressive-ev-plan-1918/


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socceroo_06 - 10 Apr 2019 12:44 PM
Munrubenmuz - 9 Apr 2019 4:52 PM

Re: Fine Particle Emissions - Overall, it appears that EVs do not result in significant reductions of PM and therefore cannot be considered the single solution to urban air pollution. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780128117705000121

I could go on and on.....but yeah keep living in your Utopia that EV's are a silver bullet. 


No one said they're a silver bullet for all of the world's ills.

Did you know when computers where first invented they were the size of a house?  How about mobile phones?

A commercially made electric car has been around for about a decade.  Do you actually think that that this is the zenith of their technological advancement?

I mean seriously.  Did you buy the first iphone and think to yourself 'well this is as good as it's ever going to get.'


What I don't get about this from a Liberal party point of view is this could virtually uncouple Australia from the reliance of the Middle East as a supplier of our transportation fuels.  And yet for some weird  reason conservatives think being beholden to medieval cartels that have us by the balls should a war start or they decide to curtail production is a good thing.

It's no coincidence that the oil price per barrel has remained static or even trended downwards for the last few years after tracking upwards for the years before it.  They know that should the oil price rise excessively that will just push the inevitable adoption of EV's forward at an even faster rate.

The ICE will never die and there will always be a market for them but the facts are they are yesterdays technology and are going the way of the dodo.. 


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Edited
6 Months Ago by Munrubenmuz
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socceroo_06 - 10 Apr 2019 12:44 PM
Munrubenmuz - 9 Apr 2019 4:52 PM

Re: Fine Particle Emissions - Overall, it appears that EVs do not result in significant reductions of PM and therefore cannot be considered the single solution to urban air pollution. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780128117705000121

Probably should read what you're citing before quoting it as proof of anything.

From the comments section of that paper.  Link here.  https://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/04/20160418-pm10.html


Bob Wilson: The study was paid for by the co-author himself, Peter Achten, an inventor and proponent of hydraulic hybrid technology which he wants to promote over electric vehicle / electric hybrid tech. The 1st listed author is a summer intern college student from Edinburgh) he hired to help withe the study. The selection of vehicles was carefully made (or excluded) to ensure it would show that EVs weigh significantly more than ICEs, such as the Honda Fit EV, which was a short run conversion car already out of production when the study was conducted. In short, not science, rather propaganda being used to defame one product (EVs) in hopes that would give an opening for another (the author's).

and

And how Peter Achten was able to fool the media and public in to believing, as the post and so many articles stated, this was a"study by a team from the University of Edinburgh"

"The authors regret that as Victor Timmers did not carry out the research under the auspices of the University of Edinburgh, nor in collaboration or consultation with any personnel at the University of Edinburgh, the affiliation of “University of Edinburgh” has now been removed from this work at the request of the Institution. In addition, subsequent to the publication of the Paper, Victor Timmers has disclosed a potential Conflict of Interest with regard to the work, namely: “non-financial support from Innas B.V, during the conduct of the study”.
The authors would like to apologise for any inconvenience caused."
https://ac.els-cdn.com/S1352231016308548/1-s2.0-S1352231016308548-main.pdf?_tid=3a086cc4-c894-11e7-ba7f-0000aab0f26&acdnat=1510592652_808628a316eb6e90b9766d243123220


And this pearler of a observation;

Am I reading this correctly: They're counting "resuspension" of particles against EVs? Does that truly mean to resuspend or kick up dust and particulates left on the road by other vehicles? ....so...they're blaming EVs for SH*T left behind by other vehicles?

Do they also blame wind for this? Forget nukes, the new chant is "NO WIND! NO WIND! NO WIND!!!" LMAO!!!

This "resuspension" accounts for 75.5% of the "Total PM" they attribute to EVs. So ICE vehicles dump shyt on the road, and it's the EV's fault for rolling through it!!! LMMFAO!!!

I believe this is one of the most irresponsible and MORONIC studies I've seen in years.

They also ignore the fact that most EVs use harder compounds to reduce rolling resistance which reduces particulate coming from their own tire wear. But that's a tiny fraction of the total miss on this study so who really cares.



Apology from author here.  https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1352231016308548





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Edited
6 Months Ago by Munrubenmuz
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Munrubenmuz - 9 Apr 2019 3:08 PM
I love 'em, I like the idea of them,  I want one.  I wish we'd get on with it.

Here's a great youtube series by none other than 'Kryten' from Red Dwarf.  

https://www.youtube.com/user/fullychargedshow 

Go buy one then!

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Munrubenmuz - 10 Apr 2019 1:07 PM

Only bogans will deny the evidence. Fuck me that was beautiful to watch. 


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mouflonrouge - 10 Apr 2019 2:06 PM
Munrubenmuz - 9 Apr 2019 3:08 PM

Go buy one then!

I'm keen mate.  Per my opening post I wish they'd get on with it because the more they make of them, the greater the demand, the cheaper they'll be.

When the wife gets rid of her i30 I'm thinking that an EV of some sort (providing the cost is reasonable) will be the replacement.





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So how much for a Tesla 3 series with all the options like insane mode?

Is it cheap enough for an average family sedan?

Can it take the family camping or long road trips? Or do we need to wait 8 hours to fill the battery?

I want one but is it practical for our main family car?

I'm no fan of the Toyota EV, but a Tesla might be nice. But expensive.

I've always wanted a Ford Ranger Wildtrak myself for the great outdoors, camping and 4WDriving...I don't think they are making EV for this yet.

Edited
6 Months Ago by mouflonrouge
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TheSelectFew - 10 Apr 2019 2:09 PM
Munrubenmuz - 10 Apr 2019 1:07 PM

Only bogans will deny the evidence. Fuck me that was beautiful to watch. 

And that was a 4 year old car.  Love the comments section.  'yeah but if that went around corners the V8 would smash it' in complete denial about the fact that 1 car is a suburban vehicle and the other is a specced up $1 million dollar supercar.  Fuck some of these people are delusional.

Like I said there'll always be a place for the ICE but there's no stopping what's coming.

I read an article the other night and they were talking about how once cars go semi-autonomous or full autonomous the car insurance industry will be virtually wiped out. (That'll be EV's and ICE's). 

Yes there'll still be accidents but at a fraction of the rates they are now.  Most claims are dings where the owner wasn't paying attention in a shopping centre carpark.  With LIDAR and senses everywhere and auto-braking these collisions will be virtually wiped out.  Panel beaters are going to be in for a rough time.  As well as spare parts manufacturers who supply replacements for everything that's damaged in an accident.

Whole industries are going to be upended.




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Muz
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mouflonrouge - 10 Apr 2019 2:16 PM
So how much for a Tesla 3 series with all the options like insane mode?

Is it cheap enough for an average family sedan?

Can it take the family camping or long road trips? Or do we need to wait 8 hours to fill the battery?

I want one but is it practical for our main family car?

I'm no fan of the Toyota EV, but a Tesla might be nice. But expensive.

I've always wanted a Ford Ranger Wildtrak myself for the great outdoors, camping and 4WDriving...I don't think they are making EV for this yet.

Apparently there's no exact price on a Tesla 3 for the Australia market as yet but based on what they cost OS they reckon about $65k.

https://thedriven.io/2019/03/04/how-much-will-a-tesla-model-3-electric-car-cost-in-australia-find-out-here/ 
or $50k ish according to this mob - https://www.drivezero.com.au/cars/tesla/tesla-model-3-aud-calculator/

The range is north of 450kms.

The new fast chargers will give you 80% charge in 15-20 minutes. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/oct/22/ultra-rapid-electric-car-charging-network-coming-to-australia
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/oct/25/shell-starts-rollout-of-ultrafast-electric-car-chargers-in-europe

According to people that have driven them around Australia if you can find somewhere that you can boil a kettle, you can recharge your car.  Admittedly that's a slow recharge but really it's just a matter of getting the infrastructure in place.  If you put a charging station at every petrol station then you can go anywhere you would take a normal ICE.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/sep/12/how-much-does-it-cost-to-power-an-electric-car-around-australia-150
 




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Edited
6 Months Ago by Munrubenmuz
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Sounds good. But still a bit pricey and the infrastructure isn't there to make it practical. Imagine waiting for the charge point and being 4th in line then waiting 20 minutes for an 80% charge. I don't think the technology and infrastructure is there for mass adoption and at $70K I think its out of range for most families.

Also, if the battery dies, you are up for big bucks to replace or a new Tesla.

I would love to see Tesla take off. I like the tech.

I prefer Tesla than the other hybrids kicking around. But you have to be brave to be an early adopter. I think the technology is going to develop more, and the current EVs are going to be obsolete very quickly.

I think the aim of 50% cars by 2030 is delusional as most people can't afford it and if they did, the grid wouldn't be able to cope. I think its headline grabbing. But long term goals to let's say 2060, might be achievable.

Edited
6 Months Ago by mouflonrouge
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mouflonrouge - 10 Apr 2019 2:43 PM
Sounds good. But still a bit pricey and the infrastructure isn't there to make it practical. Imagine waiting for the charge point and being 4th in line then waiting 20 minutes for an 80% charge. I don't think the technology and infrastructure is there for mass adoption and at $70K I think its out of range for most families.

Also, if the battery dies, you are up for big bucks to replace or a new Tesla.

I would love to see Tesla take off. I like the tech.

I prefer Tesla than the other hybrids kicking around. But you have to be brave to be an early adopter. I think the technology is going to develop more, and the current EVs are going to be obsolete very quickly.

The car comes with a 8 or 10 year battery warranty so forget about worrying about that.  If you spend $100 a week on petrol that's $50k you will spend over 10 years.  Plenty enough of savings to purchase a new set of batteries when they clag out after 10 years.

As for charging points there's a Tesla wall with points at my local shopping centre and I'm in a regional town.  https://www.tesla.com/en_AU/supercharger

And that's just Tesla.  Don't think service stations won't be soon putting them in.  A 20 minute stop on your drive from Sydney to Melbourne is an opportunity to get you to buy stuff from their stores.

Yes at $50k or $60k they are out of range for families but that's why the they need to get on with it.  Prices will fall when demand ramps up.


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Edited
6 Months Ago by Munrubenmuz
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