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Decentric
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xHere you go Paddles. So you don't feel left out. :)
The irony is that it happened against Pakistan, past masters of (ahem) "reverse swing". It's not a recent nor likely to be an isolated phenomena restricted to any particular team or something teams wait until they are losing to try. It's been happening in Aus domestic cricket for awhile. We've had coaches done for ball tampering! Not that it can't happen without tampering, but really how much of this spectacular "reverse swing" has ever been solely down to the bowler, and how much to "ball preparation"? By the way, what are your views on openly and blatantly "chucking"? That cheating? [quote] Take one bottle top. Cut into quarters. Apply tape, leaving sharp point exposed. Hide in pocket. Gouge cricket ball when required. It seems brazen, incongruous and bound to draw attention from match officials, but New Zealand's cricketers admitted doing all of the above in full view during a test in Pakistan in 1990. In those days of no match referees they were never sanctioned for ball tampering, despite Chris Pringle generating spectacular reverse swing in an 11-wicket haul which nearly spurred New Zealand to victory in the third test of that series in Faisalabad. Chris Pringle totally cheated. But NZ was crap back then. Not world class. No Hadlee, no Chatfield, no Bracwell, no Snedden Crap. Just crap. We cheated. Didn't even have Wright on that tour. We sucked.... see where this is going... You seem to be inferring that only crap teams cheat. If so, your present captain is a blatant chucker (and has been banned before), which is obviously cheating. As he has been reported again recently, would this infer that NZ are crap at the moment? They seem to be going ok. Williamson seems a fine bloke. That NZ team was so bad, Imran Khan refused to play. That is how bad that cheating Pringle team was. It was horrid. Akram and Younis thrashed that team. Much much much better bowlers.
Imran claims that he wasn't shy about putting a bit of extracurricular work on the ball himself (with bottle tops). Read the article further to find what the kiwis though of the Pakastani bowlers and why they decided to level the playing field.
But Pringle was never caught on camera, and admitted it happily after getting away with it... And he never said it was sticky tape with grit neither... he said what he did. And owned it like a champ...
Oh, all good then. If he had have captained a team with a particular knucklehead who was not very good at ball tampering schemes though, and then tried to do the right thing by standing by them, he would be the devil incarnate. Objectivity again. 1 KW has chucked. But he aint a bowler. Lets talk about Lee.... True, Williamson is not a bowler he's a chucker. That's cheating. Though he is also one of the nicer blokes in world cricket, and a great batsman. So is Smith and I wonder why he is treated so differently to Williamson, Khan, Atherton, Faff and any number of others. Let's talk about Lee then. If you could persuade that he was a genuine chucker (doubtful), that would at least destroy your inference that only crap teams cheat.
3 You can defend Smith as captain if you want. Smith is one of th etwo best batsmen I have ever watched. I rate him highly. Still a cheat, though. (Sorrry - he was captain and knew it wasn't sticky tape with grit).
Wasn't much of a Captain (tactically better than Paine though), but he seems a nice enough person. After the fact, yes he knew it wasn't sticky tape. His biggest mistake was that presser after play. Though CA never found or claimed that he had foreknowledge of the particular plan. He had knowledge of a "potential plot". Very different thing. He saw the two players in discussion, thought they were "up to something" but didn't take it further. I think he has been treated very unfairly.
Whathas any of this have to do with the Aussie bowlers are so bad, you only won 3 of your last 11 test series? Despite Smith? I dont get it...
You brought the "cheating" part up. Still not buying the World class attack part.... | View overall figures [change view] | Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Apr 2016  | | Grouped by team | | Ordered by bowling average (ascending) |
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| Statsguru includes the following current or recent Test matches: | England v Australia at The Oval, 5th Test, Sep 12-15, 2019 [Test # 2362]
| Bangladesh v Afghanistan at Chattogram, Only Test, Sep 5-9, 2019 [Test # 2361]
| England v Australia at Manchester, 4th Test, Sep 4-8, 2019 [Test # 2360]
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Your statistical (ahem) “analysis” seems a little cursory, and while I’m no statistician, it’s obvious that you certainly aren’t either lol. What factors have you considered which could modify/affect/skew the analysis, how have you allowed for this. None? You also seem to have accepted homogeneity across the board over the last few years, which is quite unreasonable. How did you allow for this. You didn't? We play most of our cricket on some of the most batting friendly surfaces on the planet where our batsmen plunder weak “away” attacks like the poms, the Lankans, Pakistan who come out here every four years or so and have been in the last few. At the same time such conditions offer little to our bowlers. It’s rare to get a bowler friendly pitch, (though it does happen i.e. our batsmen rolling over at Bellerieve). You don’t see how this could skew your “analysis” in favour of our batting, unrealistically? Or skew our bowling against averages of other attacks? Why wouldn’t our stats be perfectly consistent and expected? Have you consulted anything other than your own belief? What historical trends have you compared? A quick look shows that historically, our batting average is weaker over the last few years (by a couple of runs), while over the same period our bowlers are performing 5 whole runs better than our historical average. Not relevant? Our current bowlers are averaging the same over the last few years as we did from 2000- '09. We had weak attacks then too? Yet our current batting is worse on average by about 13 whole runs lol. Yet our bowlers are letting us down. :blink:It looks like you simply formed an opinion, then hit statsguru for statistics to support it. Lies and statistics. No, you just cant handle the truth, so you try to deny the stats. You're wasting my time. Your attack is not world class in this era. It was in the early 2000's. Stop wasting my time. | View overall figures [change view] | | Start of match date between 1 Jan 2000 and 1 Apr 2007 | | Grouped by team | | Ordered by bowling average (ascending) |
I agree with Baggers. Paddles, we are trying to build the forum. How about a civil post, welcoming the participation of a new member, even if he disagrees with you, mate? Flyslip isn't wasting anybody's time.
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Paddles
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+xPaddles you're on a losing battle, you're using common sense and logic, that won't win here. Here is the overall performances of the world's opening bowlers in the last 2 1/2 years, including the recent Ashes, that have played 10 or more tests (you'll have to teach me how to post the table) http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_positionmax1=2;bowling_positionmin1=1;bowling_positionval1=bowling_position;class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=10;qualval1=matches;spanmin1=15+Mar+2017;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowlingNot a single Australian bowler in the top 10, Starc 4th last and Hazlewood 2nd last, with Broad in between them (probably why some say Broad is a great bowler as it makes out our bowlers are better than what they are). As I've been trying to point out here, is those one off tests where good bowling has occurred ultimately only mean something when you follow them up with other consistent performances otherwise you end up with a 30 average. It's like banging your head against a brick wall, doesn't make a lot of sense but makes more sense than some of the arguments put up here. I see 4 Indian bowlers ahead of Starc, 3 SA bowlers, 2 NZ, 2 WI, and 2 Pakistan so their 2 opening bowlers are better than our best opening bowler in Starc Strike rates for these frontline bowlers http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_positionmax1=2;bowling_positionmin1=1;bowling_positionval1=bowling_position;class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=bowling_strike_rate;qualmin1=10;qualval1=matches;spanmin1=15+Mar+2017;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowlingStarc has moved up but Hazlewood now dead last. When I look at all the bowlers posiitons 1-4 (37 bowlers world wide) you now see Cummins come in at 9th but the others have all dropped down as the No 3 and 4 bowlers come in, so other world teams have No 3 and No 4 bowlers better than our opening bowlers. (I see 5 Indian, 3 English, 3 SA, 3 Pakistan, 3 WI, 2 NZ all better than our 2nd best Starc). There are 15 bowlers with averages of 24 or under, which is indicative of how poor world batsmen are presently. A 30 average when others are bowling at 24 or under which amounts to potentially a difference of 60 runs per innings or 120 per test, is not something the world's batsmen can afford when they are all struggling. Thankfully we have Smith who is so far ahead of the rest of the world, he is covering this deficiency and adding a few runs additional, but ultimately we still lose. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_positionmax1=4;bowling_positionmin1=1;bowling_positionval1=bowling_position;class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=10;qualval1=matches;spanmin1=15+Mar+2017;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowlingAnd when I look at SR http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_positionmax1=4;bowling_positionmin1=1;bowling_positionval1=bowling_position;class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=bowling_strike_rate;qualmin1=10;qualval1=matches;spanmin1=15+Mar+2017;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowlingCummins maintains his position so he is World Class but Starc you would say is average but look at Hazlewood, thank God for the all-rounders, it would be completely embarrassing. Anyone that claims Australia is "the best in the world" is either stupid or arrogant, as both qualities ignore the obvious. You cannot claim someone is the best unless they have been consistent over a period of time which is certainly not the case with Australia, one off series or even test match doesn't make someone the best. For Australia to continue with their current attack then they really have to develop the best batting line up in the world to move up the world rankings, batting on an even keel with the rest of the world is not winning matches and we will remain around the 5th position. As for "Australia bowling on batting friendly wickets" doesn't hold much water when Cummins has an overall average of 21.45 and in Australia averages 20.88, good bowlers can bowl in any conditions. Cummins has an average of 30 bowling in the subcontinent, so I would say it is easier to take wickets as a pace bowler in Australia than Asia, so why are so many Indian bowlers ranked so high? Bumrah averaged 17 on our "Batsmen friendly wickets" last season. He would love to play half his games in Australia. Poor bowlers use that argument as an excuse, Cummins may not make the team if he had to play for India in India. This really is an issue. Especially seeing Cummins rarely gets the new ball either. Bumrah hasn't actually played in India yet, but BK, Yadav, Sharma and Shami have done the hard yards there. Haze and Starc don't right now strike as world class. Patto aint back at full steam, and Siddle is a bit ordinary. But I actually find the Lyon question more interesting. I am done with the seamers question. | View overall figures [change view] | | On continent Asia | | Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2014 | | Type of bowler (by style) spin bowler | | Qualifications matches played greater than or equal to 3 | | Ordered by bowling average (ascending) |
Overall figures| Player | Span | Mat | Inns | Overs | Mdns | Runs | Wkts | BBI | BBM | Ave | Econ | SR | 5 | 10 | |
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| Rashid Khan (AFG) | 2018-2019 | 3 | 5 | 122.2 | 23 | 360 | 20 | 6/49 | 11/104 | 18.00 | 2.94 | 36.7 | 3 | 1 |  | | RA Jadeja (INDIA) | 2015-2018 | 25 | 49 | 1147.1 | 305 | 2676 | 130 | 7/48 | 10/154 | 20.58 | 2.33 | 52.9 | 7 | 1 | | | Shoaib Malik (PAK) | 2015-2015 | 3 | 6 | 77.5 | 14 | 228 | 11 | 4/33 | 7/59 | 20.72 | 2.92 | 42.4 | 0 | 0 | | | MJ Leach (ENG) | 2018-2018 | 3 | 6 | 142.4 | 16 | 385 | 18 | 5/83 | 8/153 | 21.38 | 2.69 | 47.5 | 1 | 0 | | | R Ashwin (INDIA) | 2015-2018 | 30 | 58 | 1401.2 | 295 | 3932 | 182 | 7/59 | 13/140 | 21.60 | 2.80 | 46.1 | 15 | 5 | | | Haris Sohail (PAK) | 2017-2018 | 7 | 9 | 63.0 | 9 | 155 | 7 | 3/1 | 3/35 | 22.14 | 2.46 | 54.0 | 0 | 0 | | | A Dananjaya (SL) | 2018-2019 | 5 | 10 | 186.5 | 19 | 705 | 31 | 6/115 | 8/44 | 22.74 | 3.77 | 36.1 | 4 | 0 | | | Kuldeep Yadav (INDIA) | 2017-2018 | 4 | 8 | 124.0 | 15 | 436 | 19 | 5/57 | 6/119 | 22.94 | 3.51 | 39.1 | 1 | 0 | | | A Mishra (INDIA) | 2015-2016 | 7 | 14 | 197.5 | 28 | 621 | 27 | 4/43 | 7/72 | 23.00 | 3.13 | 43.9 | 0 | 0 | | | Nayeem Hasan (BDESH) | 2018-2019 | 3 | 6 | 68.0 | 7 | 237 | 10 | 5/61 | 5/90 | 23.70 | 3.48 | 40.8 | 1 | 0 | | | HMRKB Herath (SL) | 2014-2018 | 31 | 59 | 1530.1 | 308 | 4383 | 181 | 9/127 | 14/184 | 24.21 | 2.86 | 50.7 | 16 | 5 | | | Yasir Shah (PAK) | 2014-2018 | 22 | 43 | 1261.3 | 217 | 3653 | 150 | 8/41 | 14/184 | 24.35 | 2.89 | 50.4 | 11 | 2 | | | WER Somerville (NZ) | 2018-2019 | 3 | 6 | 136.2 | 28 | 352 | 14 | 4/75 | 7/127 | 25.14 | 2.58 | 58.4 | 0 | 0 | | | Mehidy Hasan Miraz (BDESH) | 2016-2019 | 14 | 26 | 593.4 | 75 | 1856 | 73 | 7/58 | 12/117 | 25.42 | 3.12 | 48.7 | 6 | 2 | | | Bilal Asif (PAK) | 2018-2018 | 5 | 10 | 195.4 | 40 | 424 | 16 | 6/36 | 6/123 | 26.50 | 2.16 | 73.3 | 2 | 0 | | | JA Warrican (WI) | 2015-2018 | 4 | 7 | 155.4 | 24 | 426 | 16 | 4/62 | 6/105 | 26.62 | 2.73 | 58.3 | 0 | 0 | | | Taijul Islam (BDESH) | 2014-2019 | 20 | 37 | 850.4 | 131 | 2616 | 92 | 8/39 | 11/170 | 28.43 | 3.07 | 55.4 | 6 | 1 | | | AY Patel (NZ) | 2018-2019 | 5 | 9 | 221.5 | 35 | 627 | 22 | 5/59 | 7/123 | 28.50 | 2.82 | 60.5 | 2 | 0 | | | JP Duminy (SA) | 2014-2015 | 7 | 10 | 72.0 | 13 | 260 | 9 | 3/27 | 3/27 | 28.88 | 3.61 | 48.0 | 0 | 0 | | | NM Lyon (AUS) | 2014-2018 | 13 | 25 | 712.0 | 115 | 2113 | 72 | 8/50 | 13/154 | 29.34 | 2.96 | 59.3 | 5 | 1 | | | Mohammad Nawaz (3) (PAK) | 2016-2016 | 3 | 6 | 63.5 | 12 | 147 | 5 | 2/32 | 4/70 | 29.40 | 2.30 | 76.6 | 0 | 0 | | | Shakib Al Hasan (BDESH) | 2014-2019 | 20 | 35 | 767.2 | 123 | 2500 | 83 | 6/59 | 10/124 | 30.12 | 3.25 | 55.4 | 7 | 2 | | | KC Brathwaite (WI) | 2015-2018 | 9 | 10 | 94.2 | 10 | 302 | 10 | 6/29 | 6/29 | 30.20 | 3.20 | 56.6 | 1 | 0 | | | Jubair Hossain (BDESH) | 2014-2015 | 6 | 9 | 119.1 | 10 | 493 | 16 | 5/96 | 7/152 | 30.81 | 4.13 | 44.6 | 1 | 0 | | | SNJ O'Keefe (AUS) | 2014-2017 | 7 | 13 | 308.1 | 54 | 863 | 28 | 6/35 | 12/70 | 30.82 | 2.80 | 66.0 | 2 | 1 | | | MDK Perera (SL) | 2014-2019 | 31 | 57 | 1370.2 | 191 | 4388 | 139 | 6/32 | 10/78 | 31.56 | 3.20 | 59.1 | 8 | 2 | | | Mohammad Nabi (AFG) | 2018-2019 | 3 | 5 | 91.0 | 17 | 254 | 8 | 3/36 | 4/95 | 31.75 | 2.79 | 68.2 | 0 | 0 | | | D Elgar (SA) | 2014-2018 | 10 | 14 | 68.0 | 5 | 223 | 7 | 4/22 | 4/56 | 31.85 | 3.27 | 58.2 | 0 | 0 | Lyon is totally boosted by his results in Bangladesh. If Bangladesh is excluded, watch this: | View overall figures [change view] | | Host country India or Pakistan or Sri Lanka or United Arab Emirates | | Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2014 | | Type of bowler (by style) spin bowler | | Qualifications matches played greater than or equal to 3 | | Ordered by bowling average (ascending) |
Overall figures| Player | Span | Mat | Inns | Overs | Mdns | Runs | Wkts | BBI | BBM | Ave | Econ | SR | 5 | 10 | |
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| RA Jadeja (INDIA) | 2015-2018 | 25 | 49 | 1147.1 | 305 | 2676 | 130 | 7/48 | 10/154 | 20.58 | 2.33 | 52.9 | 7 | 1 | | | Shoaib Malik (PAK) | 2015-2015 | 3 | 6 | 77.5 | 14 | 228 | 11 | 4/33 | 7/59 | 20.72 | 2.92 | 42.4 | 0 | 0 | | | MJ Leach (ENG) | 2018-2018 | 3 | 6 | 142.4 | 16 | 385 | 18 | 5/83 | 8/153 | 21.38 | 2.69 | 47.5 | 1 | 0 | | | R Ashwin (INDIA) | 2015-2018 | 29 | 56 | 1370.2 | 287 | 3837 | 177 | 7/59 | 13/140 | 21.67 | 2.80 | 46.4 | 14 | 5 | | | Haris Sohail (PAK) | 2017-2018 | 7 | 9 | 63.0 | 9 | 155 | 7 | 3/1 | 3/35 | 22.14 | 2.46 | 54.0 | 0 | 0 | | | Kuldeep Yadav (INDIA) | 2017-2018 | 4 | 8 | 124.0 | 15 | 436 | 19 | 5/57 | 6/119 | 22.94 | 3.51 | 39.1 | 1 | 0 | | | A Mishra (INDIA) | 2015-2016 | 7 | 14 | 197.5 | 28 | 621 | 27 | 4/43 | 7/72 | 23.00 | 3.13 | 43.9 | 0 | 0 | | | HMRKB Herath (SL) | 2014-2018 | 28 | 53 | 1421.4 | 294 | 3976 | 169 | 9/127 | 14/184 | 23.52 | 2.79 | 50.4 | 16 | 5 | | | Yasir Shah (PAK) | 2014-2018 | 20 | 39 | 1167.0 | 204 | 3313 | 140 | 8/41 | 14/184 | 23.66 | 2.83 | 50.0 | 11 | 2 | | | WER Somerville (NZ) | 2018-2019 | 3 | 6 | 136.2 | 28 | 352 | 14 | 4/75 | 7/127 | 25.14 | 2.58 | 58.4 | 0 | 0 | | | Bilal Asif (PAK) | 2018-2018 | 5 | 10 | 195.4 | 40 | 424 | 16 | 6/36 | 6/123 | 26.50 | 2.16 | 73.3 | 2 | 0 | | | KC Brathwaite (WI) | 2015-2018 | 7 | 8 | 71.2 | 9 | 226 | 8 | 6/29 | 6/29 | 28.25 | 3.16 | 53.5 | 1 | 0 | | | SNJ O'Keefe (AUS) | 2014-2017 | 6 | 11 | 262.5 | 48 | 735 | 26 | 6/35 | 12/70 | 28.26 | 2.79 | 60.6 | 2 | 1 | | | AY Patel (NZ) | 2018-2019 | 5 | 9 | 221.5 | 35 | 627 | 22 | 5/59 | 7/123 | 28.50 | 2.82 | 60.5 | 2 | 0 | | | A Dananjaya (SL) | 2018-2019 | 4 | 8 | 171.5 | 16 | 661 | 23 | 6/115 | 8/195 | 28.73 | 3.84 | 44.8 | 3 | 0 | | | Mohammad Nawaz (3) (PAK) | 2016-2016 | 3 | 6 | 63.5 | 12 | 147 | 5 | 2/32 | 4/70 | 29.40 | 2.30 | 76.6 | 0 | 0 | | | MDK Perera (SL) | 2014-2019 | 27 | 49 | 1197.5 | 165 | 3810 | 124 | 6/32 | 10/78 | 30.72 | 3.18 | 57.9 | 7 | 2 | | | PADLR Sandakan (SL) | 2016-2018 | 10 | 18 | 303.5 | 34 | 1120 | 34 | 5/95 | 7/107 | 32.94 | 3.68 | 53.6 | 2 | 0 | | | J Yadav (INDIA) | 2016-2017 | 4 | 8 | 104.3 | 19 | 367 | 11 | 3/30 | 4/68 | 33.36 | 3.51 | 57.0 | 0 | 0 | | | Imran Tahir (SA) | 2014-2015 | 6 | 11 | 191.0 | 25 | 635 | 18 | 5/38 | 6/71 | 35.27 | 3.32 | 63.6 | 1 | 0 | | | NM Lyon (AUS) | 2014-2018 | 11 | 21 | 578.1 | 81 | 1798 | 50 | 8/50 | 8/132 | 35.96 | 3.10 | 69.3 | 2 | 0 | | | JP Duminy (SA) | 2014-2015 | 5 | 8 | 53.0 | 9 | 218 | 6 | 2/38 | 3/85 | 36.33 | 4.11 | 53.0 | 0 | 0 | | | Zulfiqar Babar (PAK) | 2014-2016 | 12 | 23 | 600.0 | 129 | 1641 | 45 | 5/74 | 8/233 | 36.46 | 2.73 | 80.0 | 2 | 0 | | | PM Pushpakumara (SL) | 2017-2018 | 4 | 6 | 143.2 | 14 | 520 | 14 | 3/28 | 5/92 | 37.14 | 3.62 | 61.4 | 0 | 0 | | | Saeed Ajmal (PAK) | 2014-2014 | 4 | 8 | 276.1 | 62 | 635 | 17 | 5/166 | 5/173 | 37.35 | 2.29 | 97.4 | 1 | 0 | Is he like an Aus specialist spinner? | View overall figures [change view] | | Host country Australia | | Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2014 | | Type of bowler (by style) spin bowler | | Qualifications innings bowled in greater than or equal to 2 | | Ordered by bowling average (ascending) |
Okay - but he made the ICC test team of year in 2018 right? | View overall figures [change view] | | Start of match date between 1 jan 2018 and 1 Jan 2019 | | Type of bowler (by style) spin bowler | | Qualifications innings bowled in greater than or equal to 2 | | Ordered by bowling average (ascending) |
Have to admit - I found it one of the more perplexing selections.
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BaggyGreens
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xHere you go Paddles. So you don't feel left out. :)
The irony is that it happened against Pakistan, past masters of (ahem) "reverse swing". It's not a recent nor likely to be an isolated phenomena restricted to any particular team or something teams wait until they are losing to try. It's been happening in Aus domestic cricket for awhile. We've had coaches done for ball tampering! Not that it can't happen without tampering, but really how much of this spectacular "reverse swing" has ever been solely down to the bowler, and how much to "ball preparation"? By the way, what are your views on openly and blatantly "chucking"? That cheating? [quote] Take one bottle top. Cut into quarters. Apply tape, leaving sharp point exposed. Hide in pocket. Gouge cricket ball when required. It seems brazen, incongruous and bound to draw attention from match officials, but New Zealand's cricketers admitted doing all of the above in full view during a test in Pakistan in 1990. In those days of no match referees they were never sanctioned for ball tampering, despite Chris Pringle generating spectacular reverse swing in an 11-wicket haul which nearly spurred New Zealand to victory in the third test of that series in Faisalabad. Chris Pringle totally cheated. But NZ was crap back then. Not world class. No Hadlee, no Chatfield, no Bracwell, no Snedden Crap. Just crap. We cheated. Didn't even have Wright on that tour. We sucked.... see where this is going... You seem to be inferring that only crap teams cheat. If so, your present captain is a blatant chucker (and has been banned before), which is obviously cheating. As he has been reported again recently, would this infer that NZ are crap at the moment? They seem to be going ok. Williamson seems a fine bloke. That NZ team was so bad, Imran Khan refused to play. That is how bad that cheating Pringle team was. It was horrid. Akram and Younis thrashed that team. Much much much better bowlers.
Imran claims that he wasn't shy about putting a bit of extracurricular work on the ball himself (with bottle tops). Read the article further to find what the kiwis though of the Pakastani bowlers and why they decided to level the playing field.
But Pringle was never caught on camera, and admitted it happily after getting away with it... And he never said it was sticky tape with grit neither... he said what he did. And owned it like a champ...
Oh, all good then. If he had have captained a team with a particular knucklehead who was not very good at ball tampering schemes though, and then tried to do the right thing by standing by them, he would be the devil incarnate. Objectivity again. 1 KW has chucked. But he aint a bowler. Lets talk about Lee.... True, Williamson is not a bowler he's a chucker. That's cheating. Though he is also one of the nicer blokes in world cricket, and a great batsman. So is Smith and I wonder why he is treated so differently to Williamson, Khan, Atherton, Faff and any number of others. Let's talk about Lee then. If you could persuade that he was a genuine chucker (doubtful), that would at least destroy your inference that only crap teams cheat.
3 You can defend Smith as captain if you want. Smith is one of th etwo best batsmen I have ever watched. I rate him highly. Still a cheat, though. (Sorrry - he was captain and knew it wasn't sticky tape with grit).
Wasn't much of a Captain (tactically better than Paine though), but he seems a nice enough person. After the fact, yes he knew it wasn't sticky tape. His biggest mistake was that presser after play. Though CA never found or claimed that he had foreknowledge of the particular plan. He had knowledge of a "potential plot". Very different thing. He saw the two players in discussion, thought they were "up to something" but didn't take it further. I think he has been treated very unfairly.
Whathas any of this have to do with the Aussie bowlers are so bad, you only won 3 of your last 11 test series? Despite Smith? I dont get it...
You brought the "cheating" part up. Still not buying the World class attack part.... | View overall figures [change view] | | Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Apr 2016 | | Grouped by team | | Ordered by bowling average (ascending) |
| Page 1 of 1 | Showing 1 - 12 of 12 | | First Previous | Next Last | |
| Statsguru includes the following current or recent Test matches: | England v Australia at The Oval, 5th Test, Sep 12-15, 2019 [Test # 2362]
| Bangladesh v Afghanistan at Chattogram, Only Test, Sep 5-9, 2019 [Test # 2361]
| England v Australia at Manchester, 4th Test, Sep 4-8, 2019 [Test # 2360]
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Your statistical (ahem) “analysis” seems a little cursory, and while I’m no statistician, it’s obvious that you certainly aren’t either lol. What factors have you considered which could modify/affect/skew the analysis, how have you allowed for this. None? You also seem to have accepted homogeneity across the board over the last few years, which is quite unreasonable. How did you allow for this. You didn't? We play most of our cricket on some of the most batting friendly surfaces on the planet where our batsmen plunder weak “away” attacks like the poms, the Lankans, Pakistan who come out here every four years or so and have been in the last few. At the same time such conditions offer little to our bowlers. It’s rare to get a bowler friendly pitch, (though it does happen i.e. our batsmen rolling over at Bellerieve). You don’t see how this could skew your “analysis” in favour of our batting, unrealistically? Or skew our bowling against averages of other attacks? Why wouldn’t our stats be perfectly consistent and expected? Have you consulted anything other than your own belief? What historical trends have you compared? A quick look shows that historically, our batting average is weaker over the last few years (by a couple of runs), while over the same period our bowlers are performing 5 whole runs better than our historical average. Not relevant? Our current bowlers are averaging the same over the last few years as we did from 2000- '09. We had weak attacks then too? Yet our current batting is worse on average by about 13 whole runs lol. Yet our bowlers are letting us down. :blink:It looks like you simply formed an opinion, then hit statsguru for statistics to support it. Lies and statistics. No, you just cant handle the truth, so you try to deny the stats. You're wasting my time. Your attack is not world class. It was in the early 2000's. Stop wasting my time. | View overall figures [change view] | | Start of match date between 1 Jan 2000 and 1 Apr 2007 | | Grouped by team | | Ordered by bowling average (ascending) |
Go easy on the newbie Paddles. He has made a valid point. So dont shoot him down in flames.
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BaggyGreens
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Paddles
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+xHere you go Paddles. So you don't feel left out. :)
The irony is that it happened against Pakistan, past masters of (ahem) "reverse swing". It's not a recent nor likely to be an isolated phenomena restricted to any particular team or something teams wait until they are losing to try. It's been happening in Aus domestic cricket for awhile. We've had coaches done for ball tampering! Not that it can't happen without tampering, but really how much of this spectacular "reverse swing" has ever been solely down to the bowler, and how much to "ball preparation"? By the way, what are your views on openly and blatantly "chucking"? That cheating? [quote] Take one bottle top. Cut into quarters. Apply tape, leaving sharp point exposed. Hide in pocket. Gouge cricket ball when required. It seems brazen, incongruous and bound to draw attention from match officials, but New Zealand's cricketers admitted doing all of the above in full view during a test in Pakistan in 1990. In those days of no match referees they were never sanctioned for ball tampering, despite Chris Pringle generating spectacular reverse swing in an 11-wicket haul which nearly spurred New Zealand to victory in the third test of that series in Faisalabad. Chris Pringle totally cheated. But NZ was crap back then. Not world class. No Hadlee, no Chatfield, no Bracwell, no Snedden Crap. Just crap. We cheated. Didn't even have Wright on that tour. We sucked.... see where this is going... You seem to be inferring that only crap teams cheat. If so, your present captain is a blatant chucker (and has been banned before), which is obviously cheating. As he has been reported again recently, would this infer that NZ are crap at the moment? They seem to be going ok. Williamson seems a fine bloke. That NZ team was so bad, Imran Khan refused to play. That is how bad that cheating Pringle team was. It was horrid. Akram and Younis thrashed that team. Much much much better bowlers.
Imran claims that he wasn't shy about putting a bit of extracurricular work on the ball himself (with bottle tops). Read the article further to find what the kiwis though of the Pakastani bowlers and why they decided to level the playing field.
But Pringle was never caught on camera, and admitted it happily after getting away with it... And he never said it was sticky tape with grit neither... he said what he did. And owned it like a champ...
Oh, all good then. If he had have captained a team with a particular knucklehead who was not very good at ball tampering schemes though, and then tried to do the right thing by standing by them, he would be the devil incarnate. Objectivity again. 1 KW has chucked. But he aint a bowler. Lets talk about Lee.... True, Williamson is not a bowler he's a chucker. That's cheating. Though he is also one of the nicer blokes in world cricket, and a great batsman. So is Smith and I wonder why he is treated so differently to Williamson, Khan, Atherton, Faff and any number of others. Let's talk about Lee then. If you could persuade that he was a genuine chucker (doubtful), that would at least destroy your inference that only crap teams cheat.
3 You can defend Smith as captain if you want. Smith is one of th etwo best batsmen I have ever watched. I rate him highly. Still a cheat, though. (Sorrry - he was captain and knew it wasn't sticky tape with grit).
Wasn't much of a Captain (tactically better than Paine though), but he seems a nice enough person. After the fact, yes he knew it wasn't sticky tape. His biggest mistake was that presser after play. Though CA never found or claimed that he had foreknowledge of the particular plan. He had knowledge of a "potential plot". Very different thing. He saw the two players in discussion, thought they were "up to something" but didn't take it further. I think he has been treated very unfairly.
Whathas any of this have to do with the Aussie bowlers are so bad, you only won 3 of your last 11 test series? Despite Smith? I dont get it...
You brought the "cheating" part up. Still not buying the World class attack part.... | View overall figures [change view] | | Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Apr 2016 | | Grouped by team | | Ordered by bowling average (ascending) |
| Page 1 of 1 | Showing 1 - 12 of 12 | | First Previous | Next Last | |
| Statsguru includes the following current or recent Test matches: | England v Australia at The Oval, 5th Test, Sep 12-15, 2019 [Test # 2362]
| Bangladesh v Afghanistan at Chattogram, Only Test, Sep 5-9, 2019 [Test # 2361]
| England v Australia at Manchester, 4th Test, Sep 4-8, 2019 [Test # 2360]
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Your statistical (ahem) “analysis” seems a little cursory, and while I’m no statistician, it’s obvious that you certainly aren’t either lol. What factors have you considered which could modify/affect/skew the analysis, how have you allowed for this. None? You also seem to have accepted homogeneity across the board over the last few years, which is quite unreasonable. How did you allow for this. You didn't? We play most of our cricket on some of the most batting friendly surfaces on the planet where our batsmen plunder weak “away” attacks like the poms, the Lankans, Pakistan who come out here every four years or so and have been in the last few. At the same time such conditions offer little to our bowlers. It’s rare to get a bowler friendly pitch, (though it does happen i.e. our batsmen rolling over at Bellerieve). You don’t see how this could skew your “analysis” in favour of our batting, unrealistically? Or skew our bowling against averages of other attacks? Why wouldn’t our stats be perfectly consistent and expected? Have you consulted anything other than your own belief? What historical trends have you compared? A quick look shows that historically, our batting average is weaker over the last few years (by a couple of runs), while over the same period our bowlers are performing 5 whole runs better than our historical average. Not relevant? Our current bowlers are averaging the same over the last few years as we did from 2000- '09. We had weak attacks then too? Yet our current batting is worse on average by about 13 whole runs lol. Yet our bowlers are letting us down. :blink:It looks like you simply formed an opinion, then hit statsguru for statistics to support it. Lies and statistics. No, you just cant handle the truth, so you try to deny the stats. You're wasting my time. Your attack is not world class in this era. It was in the early 2000's. Stop wasting my time. | View overall figures [change view] | | Start of match date between 1 Jan 2000 and 1 Apr 2007 | | Grouped by team | | Ordered by bowling average (ascending) |
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MikeR
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Paddles you're on a losing battle, you're using common sense and logic, that won't win here. Here is the overall performances of the world's opening bowlers in the last 2 1/2 years, including the recent Ashes, that have played 10 or more tests (you'll have to teach me how to post the table) http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_positionmax1=2;bowling_positionmin1=1;bowling_positionval1=bowling_position;class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=10;qualval1=matches;spanmin1=15+Mar+2017;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowlingNot a single Australian bowler in the top 10, Starc 4th last and Hazlewood 2nd last, with Broad in between them (probably why some say Broad is a great bowler as it makes out our bowlers are better than what they are). As I've been trying to point out here, is those one off tests where good bowling has occurred ultimately only mean something when you follow them up with other consistent performances otherwise you end up with a 30 average. It's like banging your head against a brick wall, doesn't make a lot of sense but makes more sense than some of the arguments put up here. I see 4 Indian bowlers ahead of Starc, 3 SA bowlers, 2 NZ, 2 WI, and 2 Pakistan so their 2 opening bowlers are better than our best opening bowler in Starc Strike rates for these frontline bowlers http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_positionmax1=2;bowling_positionmin1=1;bowling_positionval1=bowling_position;class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=bowling_strike_rate;qualmin1=10;qualval1=matches;spanmin1=15+Mar+2017;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowlingStarc has moved up but Hazlewood now dead last. When I look at all the bowlers posiitons 1-4 (37 bowlers world wide) you now see Cummins come in at 9th but the others have all dropped down as the No 3 and 4 bowlers come in, so other world teams have No 3 and No 4 bowlers better than our opening bowlers. (I see 5 Indian, 3 English, 3 SA, 3 Pakistan, 3 WI, 2 NZ all better than our 2nd best Starc). There are 15 bowlers with averages of 24 or under, which is indicative of how poor world batsmen are presently. A 30 average when others are bowling at 24 or under which amounts to potentially a difference of 60 runs per innings or 120 per test, is not something the world's batsmen can afford when they are all struggling. Thankfully we have Smith who is so far ahead of the rest of the world, he is covering this deficiency and adding a few runs additional, but ultimately we still lose. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_positionmax1=4;bowling_positionmin1=1;bowling_positionval1=bowling_position;class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=10;qualval1=matches;spanmin1=15+Mar+2017;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowlingAnd when I look at SR http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_positionmax1=4;bowling_positionmin1=1;bowling_positionval1=bowling_position;class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=bowling_strike_rate;qualmin1=10;qualval1=matches;spanmin1=15+Mar+2017;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowlingCummins maintains his position so he is World Class but Starc you would say is average but look at Hazlewood, thank God for the all-rounders, it would be completely embarrassing. Anyone that claims Australia is "the best in the world" is either stupid or arrogant, as both qualities ignore the obvious. You cannot claim someone is the best unless they have been consistent over a period of time which is certainly not the case with Australia, one off series or even test match doesn't make someone the best. For Australia to continue with their current attack then they really have to develop the best batting line up in the world to move up the world rankings, batting on an even keel with the rest of the world is not winning matches and we will remain around the 5th position. As for "Australia bowling on batting friendly wickets" doesn't hold much water when Cummins has an overall average of 21.45 and in Australia averages 20.88, good bowlers can bowl in any conditions. Cummins has an average of 30 bowling in the subcontinent, so I would say it is easier to take wickets as a pace bowler in Australia than Asia, so why are so many Indian bowlers ranked so high? Bumrah averaged 17 on our "Batsmen friendly wickets" last season. He would love to play half his games in Australia. Poor bowlers use that argument as an excuse, Cummins may not make the team if he had to play for India in India.
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flyslip
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+xHere you go Paddles. So you don't feel left out. :)
The irony is that it happened against Pakistan, past masters of (ahem) "reverse swing". It's not a recent nor likely to be an isolated phenomena restricted to any particular team or something teams wait until they are losing to try. It's been happening in Aus domestic cricket for awhile. We've had coaches done for ball tampering! Not that it can't happen without tampering, but really how much of this spectacular "reverse swing" has ever been solely down to the bowler, and how much to "ball preparation"? By the way, what are your views on openly and blatantly "chucking"? That cheating? [quote] Take one bottle top. Cut into quarters. Apply tape, leaving sharp point exposed. Hide in pocket. Gouge cricket ball when required. It seems brazen, incongruous and bound to draw attention from match officials, but New Zealand's cricketers admitted doing all of the above in full view during a test in Pakistan in 1990. In those days of no match referees they were never sanctioned for ball tampering, despite Chris Pringle generating spectacular reverse swing in an 11-wicket haul which nearly spurred New Zealand to victory in the third test of that series in Faisalabad. Chris Pringle totally cheated. But NZ was crap back then. Not world class. No Hadlee, no Chatfield, no Bracwell, no Snedden Crap. Just crap. We cheated. Didn't even have Wright on that tour. We sucked.... see where this is going... You seem to be inferring that only crap teams cheat. If so, your present captain is a blatant chucker (and has been banned before), which is obviously cheating. As he has been reported again recently, would this infer that NZ are crap at the moment? They seem to be going ok. Williamson seems a fine bloke. That NZ team was so bad, Imran Khan refused to play. That is how bad that cheating Pringle team was. It was horrid. Akram and Younis thrashed that team. Much much much better bowlers.
Imran claims that he wasn't shy about putting a bit of extracurricular work on the ball himself (with bottle tops). Read the article further to find what the kiwis though of the Pakastani bowlers and why they decided to level the playing field.
But Pringle was never caught on camera, and admitted it happily after getting away with it... And he never said it was sticky tape with grit neither... he said what he did. And owned it like a champ...
Oh, all good then. If he had have captained a team with a particular knucklehead who was not very good at ball tampering schemes though, and then tried to do the right thing by standing by them, he would be the devil incarnate. Objectivity again. 1 KW has chucked. But he aint a bowler. Lets talk about Lee.... True, Williamson is not a bowler he's a chucker. That's cheating. Though he is also one of the nicer blokes in world cricket, and a great batsman. So is Smith and I wonder why he is treated so differently to Williamson, Khan, Atherton, Faff and any number of others. Let's talk about Lee then. If you could persuade that he was a genuine chucker (doubtful), that would at least destroy your inference that only crap teams cheat.
3 You can defend Smith as captain if you want. Smith is one of th etwo best batsmen I have ever watched. I rate him highly. Still a cheat, though. (Sorrry - he was captain and knew it wasn't sticky tape with grit).
Wasn't much of a Captain (tactically better than Paine though), but he seems a nice enough person. After the fact, yes he knew it wasn't sticky tape. His biggest mistake was that presser after play. Though CA never found or claimed that he had foreknowledge of the particular plan. He had knowledge of a "potential plot". Very different thing. He saw the two players in discussion, thought they were "up to something" but didn't take it further. I think he has been treated very unfairly.
Whathas any of this have to do with the Aussie bowlers are so bad, you only won 3 of your last 11 test series? Despite Smith? I dont get it...
You brought the "cheating" part up. Still not buying the World class attack part.... | View overall figures [change view] | | Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Apr 2016 | | Grouped by team | | Ordered by bowling average (ascending) |
| Page 1 of 1 | Showing 1 - 12 of 12 | | First Previous | Next Last | |
| Statsguru includes the following current or recent Test matches: | England v Australia at The Oval, 5th Test, Sep 12-15, 2019 [Test # 2362]
| Bangladesh v Afghanistan at Chattogram, Only Test, Sep 5-9, 2019 [Test # 2361]
| England v Australia at Manchester, 4th Test, Sep 4-8, 2019 [Test # 2360]
|
Your statistical (ahem) “analysis” seems a little cursory, and while I’m no statistician, it’s obvious that you certainly aren’t either lol. What factors have you considered which could modify/affect/skew the analysis, how have you allowed for this. None? You also seem to have accepted homogeneity across the board over the last few years, which is quite unreasonable. How did you allow for this. You didn't? We play most of our cricket on some of the most batting friendly surfaces on the planet where our batsmen plunder weak “away” attacks like the poms, the Lankans, Pakistan who come out here every four years or so and have been in the last few. At the same time such conditions offer little to our bowlers. It’s rare to get a bowler friendly pitch, (though it does happen i.e. our batsmen rolling over at Bellerieve). You don’t see how this could skew your “analysis” in favour of our batting, unrealistically? Or skew our bowling against averages of other attacks? Why wouldn’t our stats be perfectly consistent and expected? Have you consulted anything other than your own belief? What historical trends have you compared? A quick look shows that historically, our batting average is weaker over the last few years (by a couple of runs), while over the same period our bowlers are performing 5 whole runs better than our historical average. Not relevant? Our current bowlers are averaging the same over the last few years as we did from 2000- '09. We had weak attacks then too? Yet our current batting is worse on average by about 13 whole runs lol. Yet our bowlers are letting us down. :blink:It looks like you simply formed an opinion, then hit statsguru for statistics to support it. Lies and statistics.
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Paddles
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+xHere you go Paddles. So you don't feel left out. :)
The irony is that it happened against Pakistan, past masters of (ahem) "reverse swing". It's not a recent nor likely to be an isolated phenomena restricted to any particular team or something teams wait until they are losing to try. It's been happening in Aus domestic cricket for awhile. We've had coaches done for ball tampering! Not that it can't happen without tampering, but really how much of this spectacular "reverse swing" has ever been solely down to the bowler, and how much to "ball preparation"? By the way, what are your views on openly and blatantly "chucking"? That cheating? Take one bottle top. Cut into quarters. Apply tape, leaving sharp point exposed. Hide in pocket. Gouge cricket ball when required. It seems brazen, incongruous and bound to draw attention from match officials, but New Zealand's cricketers admitted doing all of the above in full view during a test in Pakistan in 1990. In those days of no match referees they were never sanctioned for ball tampering, despite Chris Pringle generating spectacular reverse swing in an 11-wicket haul which nearly spurred New Zealand to victory in the third test of that series in Faisalabad. Chris Pringle totally cheated. But NZ was crap back then. Not world class. No Hadlee, no Chatfield, no Bracwell, no Snedden Crap. Just crap. We cheated. Didn't even have Wright on that tour. We sucked.... see where this is going... You seem to be inferring that only crap teams cheat. If so, your present captain is a blatant chucker (and has been banned before), which is obviously cheating. As he has been reported again recently, would this infer that NZ are crap at the moment? They seem to be going ok. Williamson seems a fine bloke. That NZ team was so bad, Imran Khan refused to play. That is how bad that cheating Pringle team was. It was horrid. Akram and Younis thrashed that team. Much much much better bowlers.
Imran claims that he wasn't shy about putting a bit of extracurricular work on the ball himself (with bottle tops). Read the article further to find what the kiwis though of the Pakastani bowlers and why they decided to level the playing field.
But Pringle was never caught on camera, and admitted it happily after getting away with it... And he never said it was sticky tape with grit neither... he said what he did. And owned it like a champ...
Oh, all good then. If he had have captained a team with a particular knucklehead who was not very good at ball tampering schemes though, and then tried to do the right thing by standing by them, he would be the devil incarnate. Objectivity again. 1 KW has chucked. But he aint a bowler. Lets talk about Lee.... True, Williamson is not a bowler he's a chucker. That's cheating. Though he is also one of the nicer blokes in world cricket, and a great batsman. So is Smith and I wonder why he is treated so differently to Williamson, Khan, Atherton, Faff and any number of others. Let's talk about Lee then. If you could persuade that he was a genuine chucker (doubtful), that would at least destroy your inference that only crap teams cheat.
3 You can defend Smith as captain if you want. Smith is one of th etwo best batsmen I have ever watched. I rate him highly. Still a cheat, though. (Sorrry - he was captain and knew it wasn't sticky tape with grit).
Wasn't much of a Captain (tactically better than Paine though), but he seems a nice enough person. After the fact, yes he knew it wasn't sticky tape. His biggest mistake was that presser after play. Though CA never found or claimed that he had foreknowledge of the particular plan. He had knowledge of a "potential plot". Very different thing. He saw the two players in discussion, thought they were "up to something" but didn't take it further. I think he has been treated very unfairly.
Whathas any of this have to do with the Aussie bowlers are so bad, you only won 3 of your last 11 test series? Despite Smith? I dont get it...
You brought the "cheating" part up. Still not buying the World class attack part.... | View overall figures [change view] | | Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Apr 2016 | | Grouped by team | | Ordered by bowling average (ascending) |
| Page 1 of 1 | Showing 1 - 12 of 12 | | First Previous | Next Last | |
| Statsguru includes the following current or recent Test matches: | England v Australia at The Oval, 5th Test, Sep 12-15, 2019 [Test # 2362]
| Bangladesh v Afghanistan at Chattogram, Only Test, Sep 5-9, 2019 [Test # 2361]
| England v Australia at Manchester, 4th Test, Sep 4-8, 2019 [Test # 2360]
|
| | | | I'm just not.... I worry more about your batsmen at home scoring huge runs. I could't care two hoots about your bowlers. tbh....
Warner and Smith scoring dobl centuries, that worries me. Haze nopes. Patto - you wont' even play him. Lyon - lol - only if he clearly edges it and the third umpire ignores it...
We clear?
Aus batsmen are outperforming their bowlers. And have done so for years.... But your bowlers, they aint world class... not even close. They give me no nightmares...
Dont ask global fans to respect the 5th ranked team as world class, and don't inverted comma "cheating" when Aus sandpaper a ball. Its Cheating. Capital C. Its a building tool on a ball. Its clearly cheating. Its not even a mint saliva, grit or a zipper. Its a building tool! What's next - an orbital sander?
We good now?
It's not rocket science, don't use "builder utensils" on a ball.
It's never going away. It was worse than underarm. Sandpaper, seriously.... Never going away. Ever... Do you know how much we laughed in the non Aus cricket world? We pissed ourselves.... We really did. Not going to lie... For me a loved one had just died, I laughed when I read the story.... I really did.... and watched the video, it was still sticky tape then... Thanks for the bereavement help CA...
Just being honest. Omg did I laugh... You could buy a cricket set here with a free roll of sandpaper. No lieS! |
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flyslip
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 192,
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+x+x+x+xHere you go Paddles. So you don't feel left out. :)
The irony is that it happened against Pakistan, past masters of (ahem) "reverse swing". It's not a recent nor likely to be an isolated phenomena restricted to any particular team or something teams wait until they are losing to try. It's been happening in Aus domestic cricket for awhile. We've had coaches done for ball tampering! Not that it can't happen without tampering, but really how much of this spectacular "reverse swing" has ever been solely down to the bowler, and how much to "ball preparation"? By the way, what are your views on openly and blatantly "chucking"? That cheating? Take one bottle top. Cut into quarters. Apply tape, leaving sharp point exposed. Hide in pocket. Gouge cricket ball when required. It seems brazen, incongruous and bound to draw attention from match officials, but New Zealand's cricketers admitted doing all of the above in full view during a test in Pakistan in 1990. In those days of no match referees they were never sanctioned for ball tampering, despite Chris Pringle generating spectacular reverse swing in an 11-wicket haul which nearly spurred New Zealand to victory in the third test of that series in Faisalabad. Chris Pringle totally cheated. But NZ was crap back then. Not world class. No Hadlee, no Chatfield, no Bracwell, no Snedden Crap. Just crap. We cheated. Didn't even have Wright on that tour. We sucked.... see where this is going... You seem to be inferring that only crap teams cheat. If so, your present captain is a blatant chucker (and has been banned before), which is obviously cheating. As he has been reported again recently, would this infer that NZ are crap at the moment? They seem to be going ok. Williamson seems a fine bloke. That NZ team was so bad, Imran Khan refused to play. That is how bad that cheating Pringle team was. It was horrid. Akram and Younis thrashed that team. Much much much better bowlers.
Imran claims that he wasn't shy about putting a bit of extracurricular work on the ball himself (with bottle tops). Read the article further to find what the kiwis though of the Pakastani bowlers and why they decided to level the playing field.
But Pringle was never caught on camera, and admitted it happily after getting away with it... And he never said it was sticky tape with grit neither... he said what he did. And owned it like a champ...
Oh, all good then. If he had have captained a team with a particular knucklehead who was not very good at ball tampering schemes though, and then tried to do the right thing by standing by them, he would be the devil incarnate. Objectivity again. 1 KW has chucked. But he aint a bowler. Lets talk about Lee.... True, Williamson is not a bowler he's a chucker. That's cheating. Though he is also one of the nicer blokes in world cricket, and a great batsman. So is Smith and I wonder why he is treated so differently to Williamson, Khan, Atherton, Faff and any number of others. Let's talk about Lee then. If you could persuade that he was a genuine chucker (doubtful), that would at least destroy your inference that only crap teams cheat.
3 You can defend Smith as captain if you want. Smith is one of th etwo best batsmen I have ever watched. I rate him highly. Still a cheat, though. (Sorrry - he was captain and knew it wasn't sticky tape with grit).
Wasn't much of a Captain (tactically better than Paine though), but he seems a nice enough person. After the fact, yes he knew it wasn't sticky tape. His biggest mistake was that presser after play. Though CA never found or claimed that he had foreknowledge of the particular plan. He had knowledge of a "potential plot". Very different thing. He saw the two players in discussion, thought they were "up to something" but didn't take it further. I think he has been treated very unfairly.
Whathas any of this have to do with the Aussie bowlers are so bad, you only won 3 of your last 11 test series? Despite Smith? I dont get it...
You brought the "cheating" part up.
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Paddles
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.5K,
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+x+x+xHere you go Paddles. So you don't feel left out. :)
The irony is that it happened against Pakistan, past masters of (ahem) "reverse swing". It's not a recent nor likely to be an isolated phenomena restricted to any particular team or something teams wait until they are losing to try. It's been happening in Aus domestic cricket for awhile. We've had coaches done for ball tampering! Not that it can't happen without tampering, but really how much of this spectacular "reverse swing" has ever been solely down to the bowler, and how much to "ball preparation"? By the way, what are your views on openly and blatantly "chucking"? That cheating? Take one bottle top. Cut into quarters. Apply tape, leaving sharp point exposed. Hide in pocket. Gouge cricket ball when required. It seems brazen, incongruous and bound to draw attention from match officials, but New Zealand's cricketers admitted doing all of the above in full view during a test in Pakistan in 1990. In those days of no match referees they were never sanctioned for ball tampering, despite Chris Pringle generating spectacular reverse swing in an 11-wicket haul which nearly spurred New Zealand to victory in the third test of that series in Faisalabad. Chris Pringle totally cheated. But NZ was crap back then. Not world class. No Hadlee, no Chatfield, no Bracwell, no Snedden Crap. Just crap. We cheated. Didn't even have Wright on that tour. We sucked.... see where this is going... You seem to be inferring that only crap teams cheat. If so, your present captain is a blatant chucker (and has been banned before), which is obviously cheating. As he has been reported again recently, would this infer that NZ are crap at the moment? They seem to be going ok. Williamson seems a fine bloke. That NZ team was so bad, Imran Khan refused to play. That is how bad that cheating Pringle team was. It was horrid. Akram and Younis thrashed that team. Much much much better bowlers.
Imran claims that he wasn't shy about putting a bit of extracurricular work on the ball himself (with bottle tops). Read the article further to find what the kiwis though of the Pakastani bowlers and why they decided to level the playing field.
But Pringle was never caught on camera, and admitted it happily after getting away with it... And he never said it was sticky tape with grit neither... he said what he did. And owned it like a champ...
Oh, all good then. If he had have captained a team with a particular knucklehead who was not very good at ball tampering schemes though, and then tried to do the right thing by standing by them, he would be the devil incarnate. Objectivity again. 1 KW has chucked. But he aint a bowler. No sandpaper, though. And no doosra. Lets talk about Lee.... 2 Imran refused to play that series. Im not saying more about a great. I know why Pringle did as he did... For decades... 3 You can defend Smith as captain if you want. Smith is one of the two best batsmen I have ever watched. Really is. I'll add Bradman, he is still in the top 3 I ever seen. I rate Smith highly. Still a sandpaper -aka building product cheat, though. (Sorrry - he was captain and knew it wasn't sticky tape with grit). What has any of this have to do with the Aussie bowlers are so bad, you only won 3 of your last 11 test series? Despite Smith? I dont get it... You wanna bring NZ into this. That's fine. NZ suck and our bowlers aint world class. But their non world cass record is better than Aussie's of late. Please explain.... we beaten who you beat... and then some, and not lost to those you have.,.. World Class Australian attack - not buying it... | South Africa | 27 | 2016-2019 | 32 | 15322 | 199 | 29.80 | 28 | 558 | 9/129 | 23.53 | 23 | 374 | 7 | 6.26 | | | India | 29 | 2016-2019 | 40 | 21049 | 303* | 37.58 | 55 | 709 | 7/48 | 25.48 | 30 | 407 | 10 | 12.09 | | | Afghanistan | 17 | 2018-2019 | 3 | 1249 | 102 | 23.56 | 1 | 49 | 6/49 | 25.97 | 3 | 20 | 1 | -2.41 | | | New Zealand | 24 | 2016-2019 | 27 | 12979 | 264* | 36.35 | 29 | 448 | 7/39 | 29.00 | 15 | 308 | 3 | 7.34 | | | Ireland | 17 | 2018-2019 | 3 | 1101 | 118 | 18.35 | 1 | 44 | 5/13 | 29.29 | 1 | 25 | 1 | -10.94 | | | Australia | 36 | 2016-2019 | 37 | 17917 | 239 | 29.61 | 35 | 635 | 8/50 | 29.49 | 25 | 433 | 13 | 0.12 | | | England | 40 | 2016-2019 | 47 | 23759 | 254 | 29.04 | 33 | 766 | 7/42 | 30.28 | 26 | 488 | 14 | -1.23 | | | Pakistan | 32 | 2016-2019 | 28 | 13531 | 302* | 27.67 | 18 | 460 | 8/41 | 31.11 | 23 | 262 | 4 | -3.44 | | | West Indies | 30 | 2016-2019 | 31 | 13045 | 202* | 24.02 | 17 | 454 | 8/49 | 32.26 | 19 | 268 | 6 | -8.23 | | | Sri Lanka | 33 | 2016-2019 | 40 | 19215 | 196 | 26.76 | 32 | 616 | 8/63 | 33.87 | 28 | 363 | 22 | -7.10 | | | Bangladesh | 32 | 2016-2019 | 22 | 10343 | 219* | 25.16 | 15 | 316 | 7/58 | 37.43 | 16 | 169 | 9 | -12.27 | | | Zimbabwe | 27 | 2016-2018 | 10 | 4816 | 160 | 24.69 | 8 | 130 | 5/71 | 44.87 | 3 | 87 | 4 | -20.17 | |
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flyslip
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+x+xHere you go Paddles. So you don't feel left out. :)
The irony is that it happened against Pakistan, past masters of (ahem) "reverse swing". It's not a recent nor likely to be an isolated phenomena restricted to any particular team or something teams wait until they are losing to try. It's been happening in Aus domestic cricket for awhile. We've had coaches done for ball tampering! Not that it can't happen without tampering, but really how much of this spectacular "reverse swing" has ever been solely down to the bowler, and how much to "ball preparation"? By the way, what are your views on openly and blatantly "chucking"? That cheating? Take one bottle top. Cut into quarters. Apply tape, leaving sharp point exposed. Hide in pocket. Gouge cricket ball when required. It seems brazen, incongruous and bound to draw attention from match officials, but New Zealand's cricketers admitted doing all of the above in full view during a test in Pakistan in 1990. In those days of no match referees they were never sanctioned for ball tampering, despite Chris Pringle generating spectacular reverse swing in an 11-wicket haul which nearly spurred New Zealand to victory in the third test of that series in Faisalabad. Chris Pringle totally cheated. But NZ was crap back then. Not world class. No Hadlee, no Chatfield, no Bracwell, no Snedden Crap. Just crap. We cheated. Didn't even have Wright on that tour. We sucked.... see where this is going... You seem to be inferring that only crap teams cheat. If so, your present captain is a blatant chucker (and has been banned before), which is obviously cheating. As he has been reported again recently, would this infer that NZ are crap at the moment? They seem to be going ok. Williamson seems a fine bloke. That NZ team was so bad, Imran Khan refused to play. That is how bad that cheating Pringle team was. It was horrid. Akram and Younis thrashed that team. Much much much better bowlers.
Imran claims that he wasn't shy about putting a bit of extracurricular work on the ball himself (with bottle tops). Read the article further to find what the kiwis though of the Pakastani bowlers and why they decided to level the playing field.
But Pringle was never caught on camera, and admitted it happily after getting away with it... And he never said it was sticky tape with grit neither... he said what he did. And owned it like a champ...
Oh, all good then. If he had have captained a team with a particular knucklehead who was not very good at ball tampering schemes though, and then tried to do the right thing by standing by them, he would be the devil incarnate. Objectivity again.
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Paddles
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+x+x+x+xHere you go Paddles. So you don't feel left out. :)
The irony is that it happened against Pakistan, past masters of (ahem) "reverse swing". It's not a recent nor likely to be an isolated phenomena restricted to any particular team or something teams wait until they are losing to try. It's been happening in Aus domestic cricket for awhile. We've had coaches done for ball tampering! Not that it can't happen without tampering, but really how much of this spectacular "reverse swing" has ever been solely down to the bowler, and how much to "ball preparation"? By the way, what are your views on openly and blatantly "chucking"? That cheating? Take one bottle top. Cut into quarters. Apply tape, leaving sharp point exposed. Hide in pocket. Gouge cricket ball when required. It seems brazen, incongruous and bound to draw attention from match officials, but New Zealand's cricketers admitted doing all of the above in full view during a test in Pakistan in 1990. In those days of no match referees they were never sanctioned for ball tampering, despite Chris Pringle generating spectacular reverse swing in an 11-wicket haul which nearly spurred New Zealand to victory in the third test of that series in Faisalabad. Chris Pringle totally cheated. But NZ was shit back then. Not world class. Crap. Just crap. We cheated. We sucked.... see where this is going... Don't tell me the 5th ranked team has a world class bowling attack with the world's best batsman, with a tail that can bat well. I don't believe you. Ever. At all. Ever. Unless you you show me the rest of the batsmen are tail enders. But they're not. Watch the recent series at all? With 1 1/2 notable exceptions out of 9 specialists that played (Labbers being the .5), including 1 that wasn't there for the Indian series, that is insulting to tail enders. Your bowlers aren't that good. Tbh, they sucked in SA, suck in Asia, and not not doing great everywhere else.... That's the thing with beliefs, you're allowed to have them. God is in heaven, bigfoot is running around North America, and we are no.5 not because of the batting (including having our only two world class batsmen just return after 16 months)...it's because our bowlers suck. :laugh:
I get that you don't like the Aussies. But you can still dislike them while being reasonably objective. Or at least while trying to be in the same universe with objectivity. this isn't beliefs. India's seam attack despite playing in India has beaten Aussie's since 2015 on stats. And we all know their spinners have too. Aussie's seamers -heck their entire attack - aren't world class. End of. SA are. India's now are. Aussie's - no. Aus couldnt even win Bangla. UAE humbled them. And SL - go back to 2011 for a win. Im objective on stats. And I am no BCCI fan. At all. I prefer CA to BCCI, tbh. Its not an Aussie vs India thing at all. Aus bowlers are not World Class. That's my premise. Not your seamers nor your entire attack.
You're desperate to bring emotional patriotism into it, but you cannot explain to me why your bowlers rank so low on stats.... At all... remotely.... You don't win away since NZ 2016. At all. True story. That was over 3 years ago.... World class my ass... Warne-Muralitharan Trophy (Australia in Sri Lanka)2016Sri Lanka3-0 (3)South Africa in Australia Test Series2016/17South Africa2-1 (3) Pakistan in Australia Test Series2016/17 Australia3-0 Border-Gavaskar Trophy (Australia in India)2016/17India2-1 (4)Australia in Bangladesh Test Series2017drawn1 (2) The Ashes (England in Australia)2017/18 Australia4-0 (5)Australia in South Africa Test Series2017/18South Africa3-1 (4)Pakistan v Australia Test Series (in United Arab Emirates)2018/19Pakistan1-0 (2)Border-Gavaskar Trophy (India in Australia)2018/19India2-1 (4) Warne-Muralitharan Trophy (Sri Lanka in Australia)2018/19 Australia2-0 ( 5)The Ashes (Australia in England)2019drawn2-2 (5)NZ sucks at cricket. We're a tiny population, and we massively prioritse rugby and sailing over cricket. And the best at both those sports. But seriously, if Aus is a world class bowling team, why they not winning? Cos your batsmen are doing well... Just behind India in 3rd.... Wake up, its your bowlers... In the last 3 years, you have beaten SL, Eng and Pak at home.. . that's literally it So has NZ... and we suck - but our bowlers did much better in Asia... we beat Pak awaym and don't lose to SL, deal with it... Heck we even beat India at home when they toured here last.... And our bowlers, aint world class.... There is nothing world class about NZC... bar KW... If this Aus team as WC bowling attack, seam or spin, I'm not here. Seriously. It looks ordinary to me... 5th. FIFTH. Channel 7 or Fox wont tell you this truth. I will. You aint winning. Anywhere. Ever bar home against SL, Pak and Eng. None of which are in the top 3. Its middling. MIDDLING. 3 series wins out of your last 11 series... and you say World Class attack, I say BS... BS....
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flyslip
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+x+x+xHere you go Paddles. So you don't feel left out. :)
The irony is that it happened against Pakistan, past masters of (ahem) "reverse swing". It's not a recent nor likely to be an isolated phenomena restricted to any particular team or something teams wait until they are losing to try. It's been happening in Aus domestic cricket for awhile. We've had coaches done for ball tampering! Not that it can't happen without tampering, but really how much of this spectacular "reverse swing" has ever been solely down to the bowler, and how much to "ball preparation"? By the way, what are your views on openly and blatantly "chucking"? That cheating? Take one bottle top. Cut into quarters. Apply tape, leaving sharp point exposed. Hide in pocket. Gouge cricket ball when required. It seems brazen, incongruous and bound to draw attention from match officials, but New Zealand's cricketers admitted doing all of the above in full view during a test in Pakistan in 1990. In those days of no match referees they were never sanctioned for ball tampering, despite Chris Pringle generating spectacular reverse swing in an 11-wicket haul which nearly spurred New Zealand to victory in the third test of that series in Faisalabad. Chris Pringle totally cheated. But NZ was shit back then. Not world class. Crap. Just crap. We cheated. We sucked.... see where this is going... Don't tell me the 5th ranked team has a world class bowling attack with the world's best batsman, with a tail that can bat well. I don't believe you. Ever. At all. Ever. Unless you you show me the rest of the batsmen are tail enders. But they're not. Watch the recent series at all? With 1 1/2 notable exceptions out of 9 specialists that played (Labbers being the .5), including 1 that wasn't there for the Indian series, that is insulting to tail enders. Your bowlers aren't that good. Tbh, they sucked in SA, suck in Asia, and not not doing great everywhere else.... That's the thing with beliefs, you're allowed to have them. God is in heaven, bigfoot is running around North America, and we are no.5 not because of the batting (including having our only two world class batsmen just return after 16 months)...it's because our bowlers suck. :laugh:
I get that you don't like the Aussies. But you can still dislike them while being reasonably objective. Or at least while trying to be in the same universe with objectivity.
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Paddles
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+xHere you go Paddles. So you don't feel left out. :)
The irony is that it happened against Pakistan, past masters of (ahem) "reverse swing". It's not a recent nor likely to be an isolated phenomena restricted to any particular team or something teams wait until they are losing to try. It's been happening in Aus domestic cricket for awhile. We've had coaches done for ball tampering! Not that it can't happen without tampering, but really how much of this spectacular "reverse swing" has ever been solely down to the bowler, and how much to "ball preparation"? By the way, what are your views on openly and blatantly "chucking"? That cheating? Take one bottle top. Cut into quarters. Apply tape, leaving sharp point exposed. Hide in pocket. Gouge cricket ball when required. It seems brazen, incongruous and bound to draw attention from match officials, but New Zealand's cricketers admitted doing all of the above in full view during a test in Pakistan in 1990. In those days of no match referees they were never sanctioned for ball tampering, despite Chris Pringle generating spectacular reverse swing in an 11-wicket haul which nearly spurred New Zealand to victory in the third test of that series in Faisalabad. Chris Pringle totally cheated. But NZ was shit back then. Not world class. Crap. Just crap. We cheated. We sucked.... see where this is going... Don't tell me the 5th ranked team has a world class bowling attack with the world's best batsman, with a tail that can bat well. I don't believe you. Ever. At all. Ever. Unless you you show me the rest of the batsmen are tail enders. But they're not. Your bowlers aren't that good. Tbh, they sucked in SA, suck in Asia, and not not doing great everywhere else.... You want to believe they're special, but they're not. There are so many teams of bowlers doing better than them, its not funny... they're not world class imo... deal with it. You can make this a NZ v Aus thing. I don't care. Aus has a much better cricket history. But your current bowlers aint world class. If they were, you'd match NZ in Asia and England. Where you've lost far more than NZ has since 2015... That is why NZ is number 2, with a non world class bowling line up, and Aus is number 5, with a so you claim world class bowling line up... I'm not buying it. Now the Windies, with their genuine batting spuds, could argue their bowling attack is world class... and I'd listen... I mean that is what a bad batting team with quality seam attack looks like to me... Even then I aint calling them world clas... Aus needs to start winning some series with their bowlers, to call themselves world class. Cos right now, you havnt won in Asian since 2011. Seriously. You havnt won in England since 2001. And England, India, and SA have made your home grounds series celebrations for themselves this decade. World class attack - you have to be kidding me.... Win in SA if you want to be the best SENA nation. And stop letting them beat you at home... And ftr seeing you want to get personal with Pringle - Im a dual NZ and Eng citizen. I prefer NZ cos I live here. My team sucks, it does, but its outperforming yours. And there is nothing world class about my team. At all. I dont even rate out batsmen that much. I'd drop Raval and Latham isn't an opener.... ;)
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Paddles
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Group: Forum Members
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+xHere you go Paddles. So you don't feel left out. :)
The irony is that it happened against Pakistan, past masters of (ahem) "reverse swing". It's not a recent nor likely to be an isolated phenomena restricted to any particular team or something teams wait until they are losing to try. It's been happening in Aus domestic cricket for awhile. We've had coaches done for ball tampering! Not that it can't happen without tampering, but really how much of this spectacular "reverse swing" has ever been solely down to the bowler, and how much to "ball preparation"? By the way, what are your views on openly and blatantly "chucking"? That cheating? Take one bottle top. Cut into quarters. Apply tape, leaving sharp point exposed. Hide in pocket. Gouge cricket ball when required. It seems brazen, incongruous and bound to draw attention from match officials, but New Zealand's cricketers admitted doing all of the above in full view during a test in Pakistan in 1990. In those days of no match referees they were never sanctioned for ball tampering, despite Chris Pringle generating spectacular reverse swing in an 11-wicket haul which nearly spurred New Zealand to victory in the third test of that series in Faisalabad. Chris Pringle totally cheated. But NZ was crap back then. Not world class. No Hadlee, no Chatfield, no Bracwell, no Snedden Crap. Just crap. We cheated. Didn't even have Wright on that tour. We sucked.... see where this is going... That NZ team was so bad, Imran Khan refused to play. That is how bad that cheating Pringle team was. It was horrid. Akram and Younis thrashed that team. Much much much better bowlers. But Pringle was never caught on camera, and admitted it happily after getting away with it... And he never said it was sticky tape with grit neither... he said what he did. And owned it like a champ...
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Paddles
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]
I am not calling this attack worldclass as yet. I think Archer will be, I don't know if Anderson will ever return, and I don't know enough about Stone. I don't know if Wood can shakes years of mediocrity, and I don't rate Stuart Broad. I just don't.
Broad doesn't always seem to travel wel l, but over the last decade has been immense in home ashes series at least. Despite Jimmy getting the hype, I struggle to remember a series where Broad wasn't the pick of the pom bowlers. He was in this series also IMO, despite the hype around Archer. He always seemed to have us at 2 for not many and on the back foot early. The Ashes aren't everything of course and I haven't followed other series as closely. In the end it's tough to take a series where your openers are nipped out early for next to nothing, in every single match. Broad against our openers...11 wickets @ 5 apeice with an average stay at the crease per wicket of around 13 deliveries. Which then leaves Australia, outbowled by India, ranking lower that NZ and WI, as world class? How is that possible? Is Cummins that good?
A bit harsh to make a judgement under those circumstances (if you are referring to the last B/G series?). We were in turmoil with a new coach, a new captain and the main directive from CA involved reinventing our image, our only two world class batsmen suspended and team moral at an all time low point. Almost anyone would have beat us. One ordinary series is unlikely to be representative of overall standard IMO, particularly under the circumstances. I think Bumrah is the best in the world at the moment, but under normal circumstances India aren't outbowling us in Aus, nor are they taking a series. | View overall figures [change view] | | Primary team England | | Home or away home venue | | Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2010 | | Ordered by wickets taken (descending) |
Heya, thanks for your thoughts and reply. I'll let the numbers talk for Broad and Anderson at home. Jimmy is getting those wickets cheaper and slightly faster too. In the past 3 years, Anderson has gone freak mode at home and averaged well under 20 all three seasons. Still, the other figures (ie. the relevant ones lol) suggest my opinion was more than reasonable in the context it was expressed (ie. "in home ashes series, at least"). I'm not arguing over who is the better all round bowler. I think Jimmy is, but not by that much. Broad is getting past it a bit, but from memory was the pick of the pom quick bowlers in 2009, 2013, 20015 and 2019 Ashes series (IMO). In fact the only series where he wasn't probably the best seamer on either side was 2013 (Rhino easily the best). No one ran through us like Broad did, a genuine matchwinner. Which would make your rebuttal and stats...in correct context... a bit of a "strawman". Home Ashes series for Jimmy. For Broad The figures above clearly support what I said previously, wouldn't you agree? Broad averages 26 in home ashes series while Jimmy averages 33. Broad has had magic spells that few bowlers in the game have ever had (8 for 15?), leaving us demoralised and staring at a loss from session 1. In fact when you take into account Jimmies incredible stats the last few years, he is still only averaging 27 to Broad's 28.6 overall. Broad has always been under rated IMO. I can take your point that Aus v India was a new captain and what not. But the Indian seam attack didn't announce itself in Australia when they outbowled Starc and Haze.
When they "announced themselves" is irrelevant to anything I argued. What is relevant is that the Indians bowled to what was probably our weakest batting line up in living memory. Possibly ever lol. Apart from other problems leading to Aus cricket generally being in disarray. The Aussie bowlers didn't have such luxury. If you wish to overlook all of this, that's up to you, but I think it's a bit biased to think it offers genuine objectivity. I feel our bowlers are probably better all round than India's, despite Bumrah himself being clearly the best at the moment (again "IMO"). Certainly in Aus they are. We probably have the best spinner also, as he not only plays most of his matches in what is generally considered a graveyard for offies, but often can travel ok as well. If you look at someone like Ashwin for example, his figures are consistently putrid outside of the subcontinent. Jadeja is better away, probably not as good as Lyon though. No strawman, to me the Ashes in England is just another home series for England. This time between 4th and 5th. It gets more publicity, and more global viewers, but cricket is cricket. No doubt, these two teams are ordinary despite the publicity the series gets. Yet in many ways the poor batting made the series more unpredictable and exciting. The observation that Broad had been very good for England "in home ashes series, at least" was what I put forward, and at least in part what you responded to. So I was referencing your rebuttal of this opinion as a being strawman argument. The jimmy stats and so forth didn't directly address that. Nothing much did. That you think Broad is not very good doesn't address it either. Broad has clearly been splendid for the poms and has a better record in home ashes series. An argument such as "yes, perhaps so, but I still think he is rubbish and Jimmy is better because xyz" wouldn't have been a stawman. Firstly because it would have directly addressed my point, then made it obvious your stats and argument were not in direct response to my point, but supporting a separate opinion. As for you saying the India bowling isn't relevant to anything you argued, well it is.
As to whether India have a better attack than the Aussies because they "outbowled us" in the Border/Gavaskar series, this contained no strawman arguments i could find (it was only in reference to above). I do tend to disagree though. Apologies for bringing spinners into it, I understood (wrongly it seems) that we were simply discussing bowling attacks. You do realise that sandpapergate happened during the series in SA, when it was 1-1, after our bowlers had ripped through them in the first match? That is the point at which we suddenly headed southwards and from which we are yet to recover. I appreciate you teaching me the basics of philosophy, but I have complete a LLM - I'm okay with logic, don't worry. I didn't straw man you, I simply ignored the Ashes confinement from your reply post to mine that never confined such a thing. I never straw manned you. Right. So you disagreed with my point about Broad and rebutted it by ignoring it and supplying arguments of irrelevance? If that's not a classic strawman technique, back to school for you. Supporting your argument that Broad is rubbish is irrelevant. Never said he wasn't. Only that he hasn't been rubbish in Ashes series in England. That's it. If you're trying to convince that Jimmy is a better bowler, I never argued otherwise (unless you are talking Ashes series in England of course, but there's more to cricket than the Ashes, as previously pointed out). It would be logic specifically, by the way. Philosophy is a broad subject (that probably takes up far too many academic resources). And if you werent losing the 3rd test in SA, why did they cheat?
Because it was simply de rigueur for teams with bowlers capable of reverse swing, would be a good guess. You realise Faff has been done a couple of times, Philander has also been done. Ever wondered where all of that prodigious reverse swing has gone to, or why it's not as apparent for teams, in the wake of monkeygate? Ugh - you totally missed the point. Start a new topic on Broad and Ashes, and not Broad is overrated in test cricket general then. Back to school with you. I can be rude and blunt too. I have no interest in hearing about the Ashes when its 4th vs 5th as as some overt form of excellence. Cos its two mediocre sides playing for middling. Got it? Aus can't even defend their home turf to India or SA. England hasn't beaten Pakistan or NZ in this generation. This is not elite plays 1 vs 2. Its just another series. Of many test series. From two middling teams, 4th and 5th. As painful as that is for you. England has done better, Anderson has done better, against higher ranked teams than Australia. SA and India for a starter. But again you go with your confinement. I AM NOT BUYING IT. I WILL NOT BUY YOUR SUBSET. Deal with it. Its not that I am straw-manning you. I just do not accept it. Broad is not as good as a bowler as Anderson, head to head over a decade. Deal with it. In England (or possibly away for that matter seeeing they drop Broad before Anderson). I don't put some special significance on the Ashes, that no other team, no better team, is competing for. RIght now, its 4th vs 5th. The Aus bowlers were so awesome in SA, that the Aus batsmen thought it would be a good idea to take sandpaper onto the field for reverse swing? I am not buying it. At all. They were completely outclassed. In Aus. And SA. So they cheated. Can you convince me otherwise? Look - Steve Smith is the best batsman in the world right now, but your bowlers aint world class. No stat, no result, remotely suggests they are. They got you to 5th... 5th.... that's not world class... your batsmen, well they are ranked 3rd.... do the math.... where are your bowlers ranked then?
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flyslip
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]
I am not calling this attack worldclass as yet. I think Archer will be, I don't know if Anderson will ever return, and I don't know enough about Stone. I don't know if Wood can shakes years of mediocrity, and I don't rate Stuart Broad. I just don't.
Broad doesn't always seem to travel wel l, but over the last decade has been immense in home ashes series at least. Despite Jimmy getting the hype, I struggle to remember a series where Broad wasn't the pick of the pom bowlers. He was in this series also IMO, despite the hype around Archer. He always seemed to have us at 2 for not many and on the back foot early. The Ashes aren't everything of course and I haven't followed other series as closely. In the end it's tough to take a series where your openers are nipped out early for next to nothing, in every single match. Broad against our openers...11 wickets @ 5 apeice with an average stay at the crease per wicket of around 13 deliveries. Which then leaves Australia, outbowled by India, ranking lower that NZ and WI, as world class? How is that possible? Is Cummins that good?
A bit harsh to make a judgement under those circumstances (if you are referring to the last B/G series?). We were in turmoil with a new coach, a new captain and the main directive from CA involved reinventing our image, our only two world class batsmen suspended and team moral at an all time low point. Almost anyone would have beat us. One ordinary series is unlikely to be representative of overall standard IMO, particularly under the circumstances. I think Bumrah is the best in the world at the moment, but under normal circumstances India aren't outbowling us in Aus, nor are they taking a series. | View overall figures [change view] | | Primary team England | | Home or away home venue | | Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2010 | | Ordered by wickets taken (descending) |
Heya, thanks for your thoughts and reply. I'll let the numbers talk for Broad and Anderson at home. Jimmy is getting those wickets cheaper and slightly faster too. In the past 3 years, Anderson has gone freak mode at home and averaged well under 20 all three seasons. Still, the other figures (ie. the relevant ones lol) suggest my opinion was more than reasonable in the context it was expressed (ie. "in home ashes series, at least"). I'm not arguing over who is the better all round bowler. I think Jimmy is, but not by that much. Broad is getting past it a bit, but from memory was the pick of the pom quick bowlers in 2009, 2013, 20015 and 2019 Ashes series (IMO). In fact the only series where he wasn't probably the best seamer on either side was 2013 (Rhino easily the best). No one ran through us like Broad did, a genuine matchwinner. Which would make your rebuttal and stats...in correct context... a bit of a "strawman". Home Ashes series for Jimmy. For Broad The figures above clearly support what I said previously, wouldn't you agree? Broad averages 26 in home ashes series while Jimmy averages 33. Broad has had magic spells that few bowlers in the game have ever had (8 for 15?), leaving us demoralised and staring at a loss from session 1. In fact when you take into account Jimmies incredible stats the last few years, he is still only averaging 27 to Broad's 28.6 overall. Broad has always been under rated IMO. I can take your point that Aus v India was a new captain and what not. But the Indian seam attack didn't announce itself in Australia when they outbowled Starc and Haze.
When they "announced themselves" is irrelevant to anything I argued. What is relevant is that the Indians bowled to what was probably our weakest batting line up in living memory. Possibly ever lol. Apart from other problems leading to Aus cricket generally being in disarray. The Aussie bowlers didn't have such luxury. If you wish to overlook all of this, that's up to you, but I think it's a bit biased to think it offers genuine objectivity. I feel our bowlers are probably better all round than India's, despite Bumrah himself being clearly the best at the moment (again "IMO"). Certainly in Aus they are. We probably have the best spinner also, as he not only plays most of his matches in what is generally considered a graveyard for offies, but often can travel ok as well. If you look at someone like Ashwin for example, his figures are consistently putrid outside of the subcontinent. Jadeja is better away, probably not as good as Lyon though. No strawman, to me the Ashes in England is just another home series for England. This time between 4th and 5th. It gets more publicity, and more global viewers, but cricket is cricket. No doubt, these two teams are ordinary despite the publicity the series gets. Yet in many ways the poor batting made the series more unpredictable and exciting. The observation that Broad had been very good for England "in home ashes series, at least" was what I put forward, and at least in part what you responded to. So I was referencing your rebuttal of this opinion as a being strawman argument. The jimmy stats and so forth didn't directly address that. Nothing much did. That you think Broad is not very good doesn't address it either. Broad has clearly been splendid for the poms and has a better record in home ashes series. An argument such as "yes, perhaps so, but I still think he is rubbish and Jimmy is better because xyz" wouldn't have been a stawman. Firstly because it would have directly addressed my point, then made it obvious your stats and argument were not in direct response to my point, but supporting a separate opinion. As for you saying the India bowling isn't relevant to anything you argued, well it is.
As to whether India have a better attack than the Aussies because they "outbowled us" in the Border/Gavaskar series, this contained no strawman arguments i could find (it was only in reference to above). I do tend to disagree though. Apologies for bringing spinners into it, I understood (wrongly it seems) that we were simply discussing bowling attacks. You do realise that sandpapergate happened during the series in SA, when it was 1-1, after our bowlers had ripped through them in the first match? That is the point at which we suddenly headed southwards and from which we are yet to recover. I appreciate you teaching me the basics of philosophy, but I have complete a LLM - I'm okay with logic, don't worry. I didn't straw man you, I simply ignored the Ashes confinement from your reply post to mine that never confined such a thing. I never straw manned you. Right. So you disagreed with my point about Broad and rebutted it by ignoring it and supplying arguments of irrelevance? If that's not a classic strawman technique, back to school for you. Supporting your argument that Broad is rubbish is irrelevant. Never said he wasn't. Only that he hasn't been rubbish in Ashes series in England. That's it. If you're trying to convince that Jimmy is a better bowler, I never argued otherwise (unless you are talking Ashes series in England of course, but there's more to cricket than the Ashes, as previously pointed out). It would be logic specifically, by the way. Philosophy is a broad subject (that probably takes up far too many academic resources). And if you werent losing the 3rd test in SA, why did they cheat?
Because it was simply de rigueur for teams with bowlers capable of reverse swing, would be a good guess. You realise Faff has been done a couple of times, Philander has also been done. Ever wondered where all of that prodigious reverse swing has gone to, or why it's not as apparent for teams, in the wake of monkeygate? *sandpapergate*.
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flyslip
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Here you go Paddles. So you don't feel left out. :)
The irony is that it happened against Pakistan, past masters of (ahem) "reverse swing". It's not a recent nor likely to be an isolated phenomena restricted to any particular team or something teams wait until they are losing to try. It's been happening in Aus domestic cricket for awhile. We've had coaches done for ball tampering! Not that it can't happen without tampering, but really how much of this spectacular "reverse swing" has ever been solely down to the bowler, and how much to "ball preparation"? By the way, what are your views on openly and blatantly "chucking"? That cheating? Take one bottle top. Cut into quarters. Apply tape, leaving sharp point exposed. Hide in pocket. Gouge cricket ball when required. It seems brazen, incongruous and bound to draw attention from match officials, but New Zealand's cricketers admitted doing all of the above in full view during a test in Pakistan in 1990. In those days of no match referees they were never sanctioned for ball tampering, despite Chris Pringle generating spectacular reverse swing in an 11-wicket haul which nearly spurred New Zealand to victory in the third test of that series in Faisalabad.
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flyslip
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]
I am not calling this attack worldclass as yet. I think Archer will be, I don't know if Anderson will ever return, and I don't know enough about Stone. I don't know if Wood can shakes years of mediocrity, and I don't rate Stuart Broad. I just don't.
Broad doesn't always seem to travel wel l, but over the last decade has been immense in home ashes series at least. Despite Jimmy getting the hype, I struggle to remember a series where Broad wasn't the pick of the pom bowlers. He was in this series also IMO, despite the hype around Archer. He always seemed to have us at 2 for not many and on the back foot early. The Ashes aren't everything of course and I haven't followed other series as closely. In the end it's tough to take a series where your openers are nipped out early for next to nothing, in every single match. Broad against our openers...11 wickets @ 5 apeice with an average stay at the crease per wicket of around 13 deliveries. Which then leaves Australia, outbowled by India, ranking lower that NZ and WI, as world class? How is that possible? Is Cummins that good?
A bit harsh to make a judgement under those circumstances (if you are referring to the last B/G series?). We were in turmoil with a new coach, a new captain and the main directive from CA involved reinventing our image, our only two world class batsmen suspended and team moral at an all time low point. Almost anyone would have beat us. One ordinary series is unlikely to be representative of overall standard IMO, particularly under the circumstances. I think Bumrah is the best in the world at the moment, but under normal circumstances India aren't outbowling us in Aus, nor are they taking a series. | View overall figures [change view] | | Primary team England | | Home or away home venue | | Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2010 | | Ordered by wickets taken (descending) |
Heya, thanks for your thoughts and reply. I'll let the numbers talk for Broad and Anderson at home. Jimmy is getting those wickets cheaper and slightly faster too. In the past 3 years, Anderson has gone freak mode at home and averaged well under 20 all three seasons. Still, the other figures (ie. the relevant ones lol) suggest my opinion was more than reasonable in the context it was expressed (ie. "in home ashes series, at least"). I'm not arguing over who is the better all round bowler. I think Jimmy is, but not by that much. Broad is getting past it a bit, but from memory was the pick of the pom quick bowlers in 2009, 2013, 20015 and 2019 Ashes series (IMO). In fact the only series where he wasn't probably the best seamer on either side was 2013 (Rhino easily the best). No one ran through us like Broad did, a genuine matchwinner. Which would make your rebuttal and stats...in correct context... a bit of a "strawman". Home Ashes series for Jimmy. For Broad The figures above clearly support what I said previously, wouldn't you agree? Broad averages 26 in home ashes series while Jimmy averages 33. Broad has had magic spells that few bowlers in the game have ever had (8 for 15?), leaving us demoralised and staring at a loss from session 1. In fact when you take into account Jimmies incredible stats the last few years, he is still only averaging 27 to Broad's 28.6 overall. Broad has always been under rated IMO. I can take your point that Aus v India was a new captain and what not. But the Indian seam attack didn't announce itself in Australia when they outbowled Starc and Haze.
When they "announced themselves" is irrelevant to anything I argued. What is relevant is that the Indians bowled to what was probably our weakest batting line up in living memory. Possibly ever lol. Apart from other problems leading to Aus cricket generally being in disarray. The Aussie bowlers didn't have such luxury. If you wish to overlook all of this, that's up to you, but I think it's a bit biased to think it offers genuine objectivity. I feel our bowlers are probably better all round than India's, despite Bumrah himself being clearly the best at the moment (again "IMO"). Certainly in Aus they are. We probably have the best spinner also, as he not only plays most of his matches in what is generally considered a graveyard for offies, but often can travel ok as well. If you look at someone like Ashwin for example, his figures are consistently putrid outside of the subcontinent. Jadeja is better away, probably not as good as Lyon though. No strawman, to me the Ashes in England is just another home series for England. This time between 4th and 5th. It gets more publicity, and more global viewers, but cricket is cricket. No doubt, these two teams are ordinary despite the publicity the series gets. Yet in many ways the poor batting made the series more unpredictable and exciting. The observation that Broad had been very good for England "in home ashes series, at least" was what I put forward, and at least in part what you responded to. So I was referencing your rebuttal of this opinion as a being strawman argument. The jimmy stats and so forth didn't directly address that. Nothing much did. That you think Broad is not very good doesn't address it either. Broad has clearly been splendid for the poms and has a better record in home ashes series. An argument such as "yes, perhaps so, but I still think he is rubbish and Jimmy is better because xyz" wouldn't have been a stawman. Firstly because it would have directly addressed my point, then made it obvious your stats and argument were not in direct response to my point, but supporting a separate opinion. As for you saying the India bowling isn't relevant to anything you argued, well it is.
As to whether India have a better attack than the Aussies because they "outbowled us" in the Border/Gavaskar series, this contained no strawman arguments i could find (it was only in reference to above). I do tend to disagree though. Apologies for bringing spinners into it, I understood (wrongly it seems) that we were simply discussing bowling attacks. You do realise that sandpapergate happened during the series in SA, when it was 1-1, after our bowlers had ripped through them in the first match? That is the point at which we suddenly headed southwards and from which we are yet to recover. I appreciate you teaching me the basics of philosophy, but I have complete a LLM - I'm okay with logic, don't worry. I didn't straw man you, I simply ignored the Ashes confinement from your reply post to mine that never confined such a thing. I never straw manned you. Right. So you disagreed with my point about Broad and rebutted it by ignoring it and supplying arguments of irrelevance? If that's not a classic strawman technique, back to school for you. Supporting your argument that Broad is rubbish is irrelevant. Never said he wasn't. Only that he hasn't been rubbish in Ashes series in England. That's it. If you're trying to convince that Jimmy is a better bowler, I never argued otherwise (unless you are talking Ashes series in England of course, but there's more to cricket than the Ashes, as previously pointed out). It would be logic specifically, by the way. Philosophy is a broad subject (that probably takes up far too many academic resources). And if you werent losing the 3rd test in SA, why did they cheat?
Because it was simply de rigueur for teams with bowlers capable of reverse swing, would be a good guess. You realise Faff has been done a couple of times, Philander has also been done. Ever wondered where all of that prodigious reverse swing has gone to, or why it's not as apparent for teams, in the wake of monkeygate?
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Paddles
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+x+x+xps. For some more irrelevance re spinners, and in general... Ashwin has had 3 series in Aus where he has averaged 63, 49 and in the last one... 25. It could be coincidence that he suddenly morphed into an in form Greame Swann at the same time as Aus cricket imploded and our only two world class batsmen were stood down...or it might not be lol. For this reason I don't take the bowling results with anything more than a pinch of salt that series. I don't begrudge them the series itself, not their fault what happened to us, but I don't think the bowling statistics will offer a genuine reflection or insight into respective ability. I also doubt non Aussies really understand the effect sandpapergate had, and is still having on our cricket. We have a very large population of casual sports fans who believe sincerely that our sporting teams are "tough but fair" bronzed Aussies, as well as a cricket board who have always known this isn't so and encouraged win at all costs, yet have been more interested in $'s, covering for their own shortcomings, and pandering to the (rather extreme) emotional whim of our holier than though fan base. Shattering delusions is a painful thing lol. It took years to recover from Monkeygate, it will take much longer to fully recover from this. On top of that, we weren't very good to begin with. That's the point.... We were never anywhere near the point where Ashwin would run through in Australia though, is the real point. What's ya point? Ashwin has failed in Aus? Sure. Lyon has failed in Sl, India and UAE.... I mean if we're talking the best spinner, should he be able to spin a win in spin conditions? No? Not really? Okay. Just one debut test series in 2011... in SL - and the Banga's draw then. Okay. You have not convinced me. Keep telling me how great Lyon is, when Aus has not won in Asia since 2011.... If you think I am just anti - Australian, Ill say this, Steve Smith is the best BEST batsman I have ever seen with Sangakarra, and I watched Ponting, Kallis, Tendy, Lara, et al. Smith is prob better than Sanga, cos Smith has nailed the best bowling in the toughest conditions. So I'm not just anti- Australian. The 4 batsmen I rate the most - Bradman 1 - 2 Sanga and Smith 4 Lara - then YK.... Kallis, Ponting, Tendy. Gavaskar, Dravid, G Chappel, et al Hobbes, Hutton, etc can follow behind them... Australia is easily the greatest cricketing nation in cricket history... but don't tell me your bowling attack is currently world class when you're 5th. Even SA can manage 3rd without the genius batting of Smith... Its nonsense. SA outbowled you in Aus, and in SA. And the cheating happened. India outbowled you in Aus and in SA. (And most likely England too despite their loss, they didn't have Smith's runs). And don't tell me Lyon is the best spinner, when you don't win in Bangladesh, and you get thrashed in UAE, India and SL. He has been out-bowled there. Simple. You wanna defend your players that is fine. Go for it. They're excellent. But are they the best? No. They're 5th. Your bating is a fraction below India's, and your bowlers a mile behind. That's why they are first. And you're 5th. Its that simple. Yes - Smith props up your batting like he is two wickets, he does, but he scores those runs. And your bowlers don't execute like India's. SA has less runs, and win more, cos of their bowlers... India, well - they're just clocking into gear like 1,5bn people obsessed with a sport now with money should be... Your batting is a problem, but on averages, Smith's over batting averages it out. He really does. He is averaging absurd numbers. Absurd. And your tail enders aren't the worst. If your bowlers need more runs than India's, which your batsmen give them, your bowlers aren't as good as India's. Its pretty simple.
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Paddles
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+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]
I am not calling this attack worldclass as yet. I think Archer will be, I don't know if Anderson will ever return, and I don't know enough about Stone. I don't know if Wood can shakes years of mediocrity, and I don't rate Stuart Broad. I just don't.
Broad doesn't always seem to travel wel l, but over the last decade has been immense in home ashes series at least. Despite Jimmy getting the hype, I struggle to remember a series where Broad wasn't the pick of the pom bowlers. He was in this series also IMO, despite the hype around Archer. He always seemed to have us at 2 for not many and on the back foot early. The Ashes aren't everything of course and I haven't followed other series as closely. In the end it's tough to take a series where your openers are nipped out early for next to nothing, in every single match. Broad against our openers...11 wickets @ 5 apeice with an average stay at the crease per wicket of around 13 deliveries. Which then leaves Australia, outbowled by India, ranking lower that NZ and WI, as world class? How is that possible? Is Cummins that good?
A bit harsh to make a judgement under those circumstances (if you are referring to the last B/G series?). We were in turmoil with a new coach, a new captain and the main directive from CA involved reinventing our image, our only two world class batsmen suspended and team moral at an all time low point. Almost anyone would have beat us. One ordinary series is unlikely to be representative of overall standard IMO, particularly under the circumstances. I think Bumrah is the best in the world at the moment, but under normal circumstances India aren't outbowling us in Aus, nor are they taking a series. | View overall figures [change view] | | Primary team England | | Home or away home venue | | Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2010 | | Ordered by wickets taken (descending) |
Heya, thanks for your thoughts and reply. I'll let the numbers talk for Broad and Anderson at home. Jimmy is getting those wickets cheaper and slightly faster too. In the past 3 years, Anderson has gone freak mode at home and averaged well under 20 all three seasons. Still, the other figures (ie. the relevant ones lol) suggest my opinion was more than reasonable in the context it was expressed (ie. "in home ashes series, at least"). I'm not arguing over who is the better all round bowler. I think Jimmy is, but not by that much. Broad is getting past it a bit, but from memory was the pick of the pom quick bowlers in 2009, 2013, 20015 and 2019 Ashes series (IMO). In fact the only series where he wasn't probably the best seamer on either side was 2013 (Rhino easily the best). No one ran through us like Broad did, a genuine matchwinner. Which would make your rebuttal and stats...in correct context... a bit of a "strawman". Home Ashes series for Jimmy. For Broad The figures above clearly support what I said previously, wouldn't you agree? Broad averages 26 in home ashes series while Jimmy averages 33. Broad has had magic spells that few bowlers in the game have ever had (8 for 15?), leaving us demoralised and staring at a loss from session 1. In fact when you take into account Jimmies incredible stats the last few years, he is still only averaging 27 to Broad's 28.6 overall. Broad has always been under rated IMO. I can take your point that Aus v India was a new captain and what not. But the Indian seam attack didn't announce itself in Australia when they outbowled Starc and Haze.
When they "announced themselves" is irrelevant to anything I argued. What is relevant is that the Indians bowled to what was probably our weakest batting line up in living memory. Possibly ever lol. Apart from other problems leading to Aus cricket generally being in disarray. The Aussie bowlers didn't have such luxury. If you wish to overlook all of this, that's up to you, but I think it's a bit biased to think it offers genuine objectivity. I feel our bowlers are probably better all round than India's, despite Bumrah himself being clearly the best at the moment (again "IMO"). Certainly in Aus they are. We probably have the best spinner also, as he not only plays most of his matches in what is generally considered a graveyard for offies, but often can travel ok as well. If you look at someone like Ashwin for example, his figures are consistently putrid outside of the subcontinent. Jadeja is better away, probably not as good as Lyon though. No strawman, to me the Ashes in England is just another home series for England. This time between 4th and 5th. It gets more publicity, and more global viewers, but cricket is cricket. No doubt, these two teams are ordinary despite the publicity the series gets. Yet in many ways the poor batting made the series more unpredictable and exciting. The observation that Broad had been very good for England "in home ashes series, at least" was what I put forward, and at least in part what you responded to. So I was referencing your rebuttal of this opinion as a being strawman argument. The jimmy stats and so forth didn't directly address that. Nothing much did. That you think Broad is not very good doesn't address it either. Broad has clearly been splendid for the poms and has a better record in home ashes series. An argument such as "yes, perhaps so, but I still think he is rubbish and Jimmy is better because xyz" wouldn't have been a stawman. Firstly because it would have directly addressed my point, then made it obvious your stats and argument were not in direct response to my point, but supporting a separate opinion. As for you saying the India bowling isn't relevant to anything you argued, well it is.
As to whether India have a better attack than the Aussies because they "outbowled us" in the Border/Gavaskar series, this contained no strawman arguments i could find (it was only in reference to above). I do tend to disagree though. Apologies for bringing spinners into it, I understood (wrongly it seems) that we were simply discussing bowling attacks. You do realise that sandpapergate happened during the series in SA, when it was 1-1, after our bowlers had ripped through them in the first match? That is the point at which we suddenly headed southwards and from which we are yet to recover. I appreciate you teaching me the basics of philosophy, but I have completed a LLM - I'm okay with logic, don't worry. I didn't straw man you, I simply ignored the Ashes confinement from your reply post to mine that never confined such a thing. I never straw manned you. But I wasn't going to buy into a red herring either. If you're as good at logic as I think, you'll know the term. We can all play sophistry. I think Broad is overrated. That was the topic you replied to. You tried to move the goal posts to ashes, and I simply ignored that change. Broad is below average for all bowlers, England visiting or domestic for over 4 years. Probably more if I checked. He's just not a great bowler. I showed why Jimmy get the credit and Broad gets less. Broad is totally overrated and very ordinary. Literally below average in England since 2016. Probably for his career too. I haven't checked. But wouldn't be surprised. You're talking about the frame of the argument, but you replied to my holistic view with a narrow "ashes" set, I simply ignored your modified ashes subset and carried on. You tried to make the Ashes the goal posts. I rejected this. Its not a straw man. Its just a rejection of the Ashes over holistic form. India, SA, they all have had batsmen too. And more teams. I just straight out ignored the change, tbh. Its not straw manning. Its just - i don't care for this small subset against one nation every 4 years when its 4th vs 5th. And if you werent losing the 3rd test in SA, why did they cheat?
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flyslip
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+x+x+xps. For some more irrelevance re spinners, and in general... Ashwin has had 3 series in Aus where he has averaged 63, 49 and in the last one... 25. It could be coincidence that he suddenly morphed into an in form Greame Swann at the same time as Aus cricket imploded and our only two world class batsmen were stood down...or it might not be lol. For this reason I don't take the bowling results with anything more than a pinch of salt that series. I don't begrudge them the series itself, not their fault what happened to us, but I don't think the bowling statistics will offer a genuine reflection or insight into respective ability. I also doubt non Aussies really understand the effect sandpapergate had, and is still having on our cricket. We have a very large population of casual sports fans who believe sincerely that our sporting teams are "tough but fair" bronzed Aussies, as well as a cricket board who have always known this isn't so and encouraged win at all costs, yet have been more interested in $'s, covering for their own shortcomings, and pandering to the (rather extreme) emotional whim of our holier than though fan base. Shattering delusions is a painful thing lol. It took years to recover from Monkeygate, it will take much longer to fully recover from this. On top of that, we weren't very good to begin with. That's the point.... We were never anywhere near the point where Ashwin would run through in Australia though, is the real point. 63...49...25. Notice an outlier there anywhere Paddles?
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flyslip
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+x+xps. For some more irrelevance re spinners, and in general... Ashwin has had 3 series in Aus where he has averaged 63, 49 and in the last one... 25. It could be coincidence that he suddenly morphed into an in form Greame Swann at the same time as Aus cricket imploded and our only two world class batsmen were stood down...or it might not be lol. For this reason I don't take the bowling results with anything more than a pinch of salt that series. I don't begrudge them the series itself, not their fault what happened to us, but I don't think the bowling statistics will offer a genuine reflection or insight into respective ability. I also doubt non Aussies really understand the effect sandpapergate had, and is still having on our cricket. We have a very large population of casual sports fans who believe sincerely that our sporting teams are "tough but fair" bronzed Aussies, as well as a cricket board who have always known this isn't so and encouraged win at all costs, yet have been more interested in $'s, covering for their own shortcomings, and pandering to the (rather extreme) emotional whim of our holier than though fan base. Shattering delusions is a painful thing lol. It took years to recover from Monkeygate, it will take much longer to fully recover from this. On top of that, we weren't very good to begin with. That's the point.... We were never anywhere near the point where Ashwin would run through in Australia though, is the real point.
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Paddles
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+xps. For some more irrelevance re spinners, and in general... Ashwin has had 3 series in Aus where he has averaged 63, 49 and in the last one... 25. It could be coincidence that he suddenly morphed into an in form Greame Swann at the same time as Aus cricket imploded and our only two world class batsmen were stood down...or it might not be lol. For this reason I don't take the bowling results with anything more than a pinch of salt that series. I don't begrudge them the series itself, not their fault what happened to us, but I don't think the bowling statistics will offer a genuine reflection or insight into respective ability. I also doubt non Aussies really understand the effect sandpapergate had, and is still having on our cricket. We have a very large population of casual sports fans who believe sincerely that our sporting teams are "tough but fair" bronzed Aussies, as well as a cricket board who have always known this isn't so and encouraged win at all costs, yet have been more interested in $'s, covering for their own shortcomings, and pandering to the (rather extreme) emotional whim of our holier than though fan base. Shattering delusions is a painful thing lol. It took years to recover from Monkeygate, it will take much longer to fully recover from this. On top of that, we weren't very good to begin with. That's the point....
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flyslip
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ps. For some more irrelevance re spinners, and in general...
Ashwin has had 3 series in Aus where he has averaged 63, 49 and in the last one...25. It could be coincidence that he suddenly morphed into an in form Greame Swann at the same time as Aus cricket imploded and our only two world class batsmen were stood down...or it might not be lol.
For this reason I don't take the bowling results with anything more than a pinch of salt that series. I don't begrudge them the series itself, not their fault what happened to us, but I don't think the bowling statistics will offer a genuine reflection or insight into respective ability.
I also doubt non Aussies really understand the effect sandpapergate had, and is still having on our cricket. We have a very large population of casual sports fans who believe sincerely that our sporting teams are "tough but fair" bronzed Aussies, as well as a cricket board who have always known this isn't so and encouraged win at all costs, yet have been more interested in $'s, covering for their own shortcomings, and pandering to the (rather extreme) emotional whim of our holier than though fan base. Shattering delusions is a painful thing lol.
It took years to recover from Monkeygate, it will take much longer to fully recover from this. On top of that, we weren't very good to begin with.
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flyslip
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+x+x+x+x+x[quote]
I am not calling this attack worldclass as yet. I think Archer will be, I don't know if Anderson will ever return, and I don't know enough about Stone. I don't know if Wood can shakes years of mediocrity, and I don't rate Stuart Broad. I just don't.
Broad doesn't always seem to travel wel l, but over the last decade has been immense in home ashes series at least. Despite Jimmy getting the hype, I struggle to remember a series where Broad wasn't the pick of the pom bowlers. He was in this series also IMO, despite the hype around Archer. He always seemed to have us at 2 for not many and on the back foot early. The Ashes aren't everything of course and I haven't followed other series as closely. In the end it's tough to take a series where your openers are nipped out early for next to nothing, in every single match. Broad against our openers...11 wickets @ 5 apeice with an average stay at the crease per wicket of around 13 deliveries. Which then leaves Australia, outbowled by India, ranking lower that NZ and WI, as world class? How is that possible? Is Cummins that good?
A bit harsh to make a judgement under those circumstances (if you are referring to the last B/G series?). We were in turmoil with a new coach, a new captain and the main directive from CA involved reinventing our image, our only two world class batsmen suspended and team moral at an all time low point. Almost anyone would have beat us. One ordinary series is unlikely to be representative of overall standard IMO, particularly under the circumstances. I think Bumrah is the best in the world at the moment, but under normal circumstances India aren't outbowling us in Aus, nor are they taking a series. | View overall figures [change view] | | Primary team England | | Home or away home venue | | Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2010 | | Ordered by wickets taken (descending) |
Heya, thanks for your thoughts and reply. I'll let the numbers talk for Broad and Anderson at home. Jimmy is getting those wickets cheaper and slightly faster too. In the past 3 years, Anderson has gone freak mode at home and averaged well under 20 all three seasons. Still, the other figures (ie. the relevant ones lol) suggest my opinion was more than reasonable in the context it was expressed (ie. "in home ashes series, at least"). I'm not arguing over who is the better all round bowler. I think Jimmy is, but not by that much. Broad is getting past it a bit, but from memory was the pick of the pom quick bowlers in 2009, 2013, 20015 and 2019 Ashes series (IMO). In fact the only series where he wasn't probably the best seamer on either side was 2013 (Rhino easily the best). No one ran through us like Broad did, a genuine matchwinner. Which would make your rebuttal and stats...in correct context... a bit of a "strawman". Home Ashes series for Jimmy. For Broad The figures above clearly support what I said previously, wouldn't you agree? Broad averages 26 in home ashes series while Jimmy averages 33. Broad has had magic spells that few bowlers in the game have ever had (8 for 15?), leaving us demoralised and staring at a loss from session 1. In fact when you take into account Jimmies incredible stats the last few years, he is still only averaging 27 to Broad's 28.6 overall. Broad has always been under rated IMO. I can take your point that Aus v India was a new captain and what not. But the Indian seam attack didn't announce itself in Australia when they outbowled Starc and Haze.
When they "announced themselves" is irrelevant to anything I argued. What is relevant is that the Indians bowled to what was probably our weakest batting line up in living memory. Possibly ever lol. Apart from other problems leading to Aus cricket generally being in disarray. The Aussie bowlers didn't have such luxury. If you wish to overlook all of this, that's up to you, but I think it's a bit biased to think it offers genuine objectivity. I feel our bowlers are probably better all round than India's, despite Bumrah himself being clearly the best at the moment (again "IMO"). Certainly in Aus they are. We probably have the best spinner also, as he not only plays most of his matches in what is generally considered a graveyard for offies, but often can travel ok as well. If you look at someone like Ashwin for example, his figures are consistently putrid outside of the subcontinent. Jadeja is better away, probably not as good as Lyon though. No strawman, to me the Ashes in England is just another home series for England. This time between 4th and 5th. It gets more publicity, and more global viewers, but cricket is cricket. No doubt, these two teams are ordinary despite the publicity the series gets. Yet in many ways the poor batting made the series more unpredictable and exciting. The observation that Broad had been very good for England "in home ashes series, at least" was what I put forward, and at least in part what you responded to. So I was referencing your rebuttal of this opinion as a being strawman argument. The jimmy stats and so forth didn't directly address that. Nothing much did. That you think Broad is not very good doesn't address it either. Broad has clearly been splendid for the poms and has a better record in home ashes series. An argument such as "yes, perhaps so, but I still think he is rubbish and Jimmy is better because xyz" wouldn't have been a stawman. Firstly because it would have directly addressed my point, then made it obvious your stats and argument were not in direct response to my point, but supporting a separate opinion. As for you saying the India bowling isn't relevant to anything you argued, well it is.
As to whether India have a better attack than the Aussies because they "outbowled us" in the Border/Gavaskar series, this contained no strawman arguments i could find (it was only in reference to above). I do tend to disagree though. Apologies for bringing spinners into it, I understood (wrongly it seems) that we were simply discussing bowling attacks. You do realise that sandpapergate happened during the series in SA, when it was 1-1, after our bowlers had ripped through them in the first match? That is the point at which we suddenly headed southwards and from which we are yet to recover.
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I am not calling this attack worldclass as yet. I think Archer will be, I don't know if Anderson will ever return, and I don't know enough about Stone. I don't know if Wood can shakes years of mediocrity, and I don't rate Stuart Broad. I just don't.
Broad doesn't always seem to travel wel l, but over the last decade has been immense in home ashes series at least. Despite Jimmy getting the hype, I struggle to remember a series where Broad wasn't the pick of the pom bowlers. He was in this series also IMO, despite the hype around Archer. He always seemed to have us at 2 for not many and on the back foot early. The Ashes aren't everything of course and I haven't followed other series as closely. In the end it's tough to take a series where your openers are nipped out early for next to nothing, in every single match. Broad against our openers...11 wickets @ 5 apeice with an average stay at the crease per wicket of around 13 deliveries. Which then leaves Australia, outbowled by India, ranking lower that NZ and WI, as world class? How is that possible? Is Cummins that good?
A bit harsh to make a judgement under those circumstances (if you are referring to the last B/G series?). We were in turmoil with a new coach, a new captain and the main directive from CA involved reinventing our image, our only two world class batsmen suspended and team moral at an all time low point. Almost anyone would have beat us. One ordinary series is unlikely to be representative of overall standard IMO, particularly under the circumstances. I think Bumrah is the best in the world at the moment, but under normal circumstances India aren't outbowling us in Aus, nor are they taking a series. | View overall figures [change view] | | Primary team England | | Home or away home venue | | Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2010 | | Ordered by wickets taken (descending) |
Heya, thanks for your thoughts and reply. I'll let the numbers talk for Broad and Anderson at home. Jimmy is getting those wickets cheaper and slightly faster too. In the past 3 years, Anderson has gone freak mode at home and averaged well under 20 all three seasons. Still, the other figures (ie. the relevant ones lol) suggest my opinion was more than reasonable in the context it was expressed (ie. "in home ashes series, at least"). I'm not arguing over who is the better all round bowler. I think Jimmy is, but not by that much. Broad is getting past it a bit, but from memory was the pick of the pom quick bowlers in 2009, 2013, 20015 and 2019 Ashes series (IMO). In fact the only series where he wasn't probably the best seamer on either side was 2013 (Rhino easily the best). No one ran through us like Broad did, a genuine matchwinner. Which would make your rebuttal and stats...in correct context... a bit of a "strawman". Home Ashes series for Jimmy. For Broad The figures above clearly support what I said previously, wouldn't you agree? Broad averages 26 in home ashes series while Jimmy averages 33. Broad has had magic spells that few bowlers in the game have ever had (8 for 15?), leaving us demoralised and staring at a loss from session 1. In fact when you take into account Jimmies incredible stats the last few years, he is still only averaging 27 to Broad's 28.6 overall. Broad has always been under rated IMO. I can take your point that Aus v India was a new captain and what not. But the Indian seam attack didn't announce itself in Australia when they outbowled Starc and Haze.
When they "announced themselves" is irrelevant to anything I argued. What is relevant is that the Indians bowled to what was probably our weakest batting line up in living memory. Possibly ever lol. Apart from other problems leading to Aus cricket generally being in disarray. The Aussie bowlers didn't have such luxury. If you wish to overlook all of this, that's up to you, but I think it's a bit biased to think it offers genuine objectivity. I feel our bowlers are probably better all round than India's, despite Bumrah himself being clearly the best at the moment (again "IMO"). Certainly in Aus they are. We probably have the best spinner also, as he not only plays most of his matches in what is generally considered a graveyard for offies, but often can travel ok as well. If you look at someone like Ashwin for example, his figures are consistently putrid outside of the subcontinent. Jadeja is better away, probably not as good as Lyon though. No strawman, to me the Ashes in England is just another home series for England. This time between 4th and 5th. I started holistically, and I will carry on holistically. Ashes gets more publicity, and more global viewers, but cricket is cricket. Noone ever wants to lose tests at home. But I don't how Broad can be under rated, when he still averages ABOVE the average in England for years in a row blows me aside. I mean that global, including the AWAY touring bowlers in England. He just isn't that good in my mind. But my stats above demonstrate my opinion on that. As for you saying the India bowling isn't relevant to anything you argued, well it is. You think Australia's current crop are better than India's. I don't think so. You blame sandpaper bans to batsmen for it. I still don't think so. India's seam bowlers performed better in SA in 2018, than Aussie's. You both toured there. India announced themselves to the global cricket fan then. All keen observers noticed that India's seam attack was on song. They then outperformed then in Aus. And have been outperforming them overall since 2016. As the stats show. I never included any of the spinners, we were only ever talking seamers. That is strictly seam bowlers. Read the headnote and you'll see it confirmed. If I included Jadeja and Ashwin, their numbers get even better as against Lyon's. But its seam only. No tricks here. Not into straw manning and point scoring. Just my honest opinion that I think India's seam attack is currently performing at world class level just behind SA's, and I am not convinced Australia's is. At all. India's seam attack is playing the same countries, in the same places as Australia has been. And they have to play on the worst pitches for seamers in India. They're outperforming Australia's. And have been since 2015... thats 49 and 53 tests as a sample, and they didn't even have Bumrah for half of those! SegueThe Lyon call as better is interesting though. Cos he averages over 30 in SL, Ind and over 50 in the UAE. The only place in Asia he has performed in Bangladesh. He does out perform Ashwin in Australia, sure, but Jadeja is doing better in a small sample in Aus... Lyon: | in Australia | 2011-2019 | 43 | 82 | 1846.1 | 353 | 5506 | 164 | 7/152 | 12/286 | 33.57 | 2.98 | 67.5 | 5 | 1 | | | in Bangladesh | 2017-2017 | 2 | 4 | 133.5 | 34 | 315 | 22 | 7/94 | 13/154 | 14.31 | 2.35 | 36.5 | 3 | 1 | | | in England | 2013-2019 | 13 | 25 | 497.5 | 99 | 1423 | 45 | 6/49 | 9/161 | 31.62 | 2.85 | 66.3 | 1 | 0 | | | in India | 2013-2017 | 7 | 13 | 293.3 | 28 | 1040 | 34 | 8/50 | 9/165 | 30.58 | 3.54 | 51.7 | 3 | 0 | | | in New Zealand | 2016-2016 | 2 | 4 | 64.0 | 13 | 226 | 10 | 4/91 | 7/123 | 22.60 | 3.53 | 38.4 | 0 | 0 | | | in South Africa | 2011-2018 | 9 | 17 | 366.5 | 74 | 1113 | 28 | 5/130 | 6/178 | 39.75 | 3.03 | 78.6 | 1 | 0 | | | in Sri Lanka | 2011-2016 | 6 | 12 | 248.5 | 36 | 806 | 24 | 5/34 | 7/233 | 33.58 | 3.23 | 62.2 | 1 | 0 | | | in U.A.E. | 2014-2018 | 4 | 8 | 257.5 | 39 | 807 | 15 | 4/78 | 8/213 | 53.80 | 3.12 | 103.1 | 0 | 0 | | | in West Indies | 2012-2015 | 5 | 9 | 184.3 | 52 | 491 | 21 | 5/68 | 7/156 | 23.38 | 2.66 | 52.7 | 1 | 0 | |
| home | 2011-2019 | 43 | 82 | 1846.1 | 353 | 5506 | 164 | 7/152 | 12/286 | 33.57 | 2.98 | 67.5 | 5 | 1 | | | away | 2011-2019 | 44 | 84 | 1789.2 | 336 | 5414 | 184 | 8/50 | 13/154 | 29.42 | 3.02 | 58.3 | 10 | 1 | | | neutral | 2014-2018 | 4 | 8 | 257.5 | 39 | 807 | 15 | 4/78 | 8/213 | 53.80 | 3.12 | 103.1 | 0 | 0 | |
Those numbers in UAE are horrid... lets be honest... Jadeja: | | in Australia | 2018-2019 | 2 | 3 | 89.0 | 25 | 200 | 7 | 3/82 | 5/127 | 28.57 | 2.24 | 76.2 | 0 | 0 | | | in England | 2014-2018 | 5 | 8 | 233.0 | 28 | 678 | 16 | 4/79 | 7/258 | 42.37 | 2.90 | 87.3 | 0 | 0 | | | in India | 2012-2018 | 28 | 55 | 1302.1 | 374 | 2838 | 144 | 7/48 | 10/154 | 19.70 | 2.17 | 54.2 | 7 | 1 | | | in New Zealand | 2014-2014 | 2 | 4 | 89.0 | 17 | 257 | 3 | 1/10 | 2/130 | 85.66 | 2.88 | 178.0 | 0 | 0 | | | in South Africa | 2013-2013 | 1 | 2 | 62.2 | 15 | 154 | 6 | 6/138 | 6/154 | 25.66 | 2.47 | 62.3 | 1 | 0 | | | in Sri Lanka | 2017-2017 | 2 | 4 | 108.2 | 18 | 374 | 13 | 5/152 | 7/236 | 28.76 | 3.45 | 50.0 | 1 | 0 | | | in West Indies | 2016-2019 | 3 | 6 | 84.5 | 25 | 230 | 9 | 3/58 | 4/77 | 25.55 | 2.71 | 56.5 | 0 | 0 | |
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| home | 2012-2018 | 28 | 55 | 1302.1 | 374 | 2838 | 144 | 7/48 | 10/154 | 19.70 | 2.17 | 54.2 | 7 | 1 | | | away | 2013-2019 | 15 | 27 | 666.3 | 128 | 1893 | 54 | 6/138 | 7/236 | 35.05 | 2.84 | 74.0 | 2 | 0 | |
His away number is unimpressive, but its blown out by 2014 in England and NZ, where he was smashed. Since then, he has been tidier. Ashwin: | in Australia | 2011-2018 | 7 | 12 | 426.3 | 69 | 1298 | 27 | 4/105 | 6/149 | 48.07 | 3.04 | 94.7 | 0 | 0 | | | in Bangladesh | 2015-2015 | 1 | 2 | 31.0 | 8 | 95 | 5 | 5/87 | 5/95 | 19.00 | 3.06 | 37.2 | 1 | 0 | | | in England | 2014-2018 | 6 | 9 | 175.1 | 33 | 461 | 14 | 4/62 | 7/121 | 32.92 | 2.63 | 75.0 | 0 | 0 | | | in India | 2011-2018 | 38 | 74 | 1919.1 | 421 | 5309 | 234 | 7/59 | 13/140 | 22.68 | 2.76 | 49.2 | 20 | 6 | | | in South Africa | 2013-2018 | 3 | 6 | 118.3 | 22 | 323 | 7 | 4/113 | 5/191 | 46.14 | 2.72 | 101.5 | 0 | 0 | | | in Sri Lanka | 2015-2017 | 6 | 12 | 260.4 | 47 | 820 | 38 | 6/46 | 10/160 | 21.57 | 3.14 | 41.1 | 3 | 1 | | | in West Indies | 2016-2016 | 4 | 7 | 131.0 | 29 | 394 | 17 | 7/83 | 7/126 | 23.17 | 3.00 | 46.2 | 2 | 0 | |
| home | 2011-2018 | 38 | 74 | 1919.1 | 421 | 5309 | 234 | 7/59 | 13/140 | 22.68 | 2.76 | 49.2 | 20 | 6 | | | away | 2011-2018 | 27 | 48 | 1142.5 | 208 | 3391 | 108 | 7/83 | 10/160 | 31.39 | 2.96 | 63.4 | 6 | 1 | |
Better away figure than Jadeja, but blamed for the loss in England last year when he missed the rough that Ali exploited. England counter punched him to win the series. Given a chance in Aus, but swiftly dropped again. Jadeja isn't even India's most threatening spinner away, which is chinaman Kuldeep, but Jadeja has all round skills that get him preferred for selection as India has had some batting problems of late outside Kohli's brilliance. Ashwin is Asia only for now. He didn't play in WI after being dropped in England and Aus both. I think I'd take Jadeja as a cricketer over Lyon any day with his fielding and batting. But even on just bowling, which is the moot, I'd need to know more why it should be Lyon. Has Lyon even ever lead a series win in Asia since after his debut test series? I don't think he has. Lyon just seems to be a containment bowled for the Aussie quicks to be rotated around. At that he is brilliant. But he isn't spinning all that many wins in Asia is he?
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flyslip
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I am not calling this attack worldclass as yet. I think Archer will be, I don't know if Anderson will ever return, and I don't know enough about Stone. I don't know if Wood can shakes years of mediocrity, and I don't rate Stuart Broad. I just don't.
Broad doesn't always seem to travel wel l, but over the last decade has been immense in home ashes series at least. Despite Jimmy getting the hype, I struggle to remember a series where Broad wasn't the pick of the pom bowlers. He was in this series also IMO, despite the hype around Archer. He always seemed to have us at 2 for not many and on the back foot early. The Ashes aren't everything of course and I haven't followed other series as closely. In the end it's tough to take a series where your openers are nipped out early for next to nothing, in every single match. Broad against our openers...11 wickets @ 5 apeice with an average stay at the crease per wicket of around 13 deliveries. Which then leaves Australia, outbowled by India, ranking lower that NZ and WI, as world class? How is that possible? Is Cummins that good?
A bit harsh to make a judgement under those circumstances (if you are referring to the last B/G series?). We were in turmoil with a new coach, a new captain and the main directive from CA involved reinventing our image, our only two world class batsmen suspended and team moral at an all time low point. Almost anyone would have beat us. One ordinary series is unlikely to be representative of overall standard IMO, particularly under the circumstances. I think Bumrah is the best in the world at the moment, but under normal circumstances India aren't outbowling us in Aus, nor are they taking a series. | View overall figures [change view] | | Primary team England | | Home or away home venue | | Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2010 | | Ordered by wickets taken (descending) |
Heya, thanks for your thoughts and reply. I'll let the numbers talk for Broad and Anderson at home. Jimmy is getting those wickets cheaper and slightly faster too. In the past 3 years, Anderson has gone freak mode at home and averaged well under 20 all three seasons. Still, the other figures (ie. the relevant ones lol) suggest my opinion was more than reasonable in the context it was expressed (ie. "in home ashes series, at least"). I'm not arguing over who is the better all round bowler. I think Jimmy is, but not by that much. Broad is getting past it a bit, but from memory was the pick of the pom quick bowlers in 2009, 2013, 20015 and 2019 Ashes series (IMO). In fact the only series where he wasn't probably the best seamer on either side was 2013 (Rhino easily the best). No one ran through us like Broad did, a genuine matchwinner. Which would make your rebuttal and stats...in correct context... a bit of a "strawman". Home Ashes series for Jimmy. For Broad The figures above clearly support what I said previously, wouldn't you agree? Broad averages 26 in home ashes series while Jimmy averages 33. Broad has had magic spells that few bowlers in the game have ever had (8 for 15?), leaving us demoralised and staring at a loss from session 1. In fact when you take into account Jimmies incredible stats the last few years, he is still only averaging 27 to Broad's 28.6 overall. Broad has always been under rated IMO. I can take your point that Aus v India was a new captain and what not. But the Indian seam attack didn't announce itself in Australia when they outbowled Starc and Haze.
When they "announced themselves" is irrelevant to anything I argued. What is relevant is that the Indians bowled to what was probably our weakest batting line up in living memory. Possibly ever lol. Apart from other problems leading to Aus cricket generally being in disarray. The Aussie bowlers didn't have such luxury. If you wish to overlook all of this, that's up to you, but I think it's a bit biased to think it offers genuine objectivity. I feel our bowlers are probably better all round than India's, despite Bumrah himself being clearly the best at the moment (again "IMO"). Certainly in Aus they are. We probably have the best spinner also, as he not only plays most of his matches in what is generally considered a graveyard for offies, but often can travel ok as well. If you look at someone like Ashwin for example, his figures are consistently putrid outside of the subcontinent. Jadeja is better away, probably not as good as Lyon though.
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Paddles
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I am not calling this attack worldclass as yet. I think Archer will be, I don't know if Anderson will ever return, and I don't know enough about Stone. I don't know if Wood can shakes years of mediocrity, and I don't rate Stuart Broad. I just don't.
Broad doesn't always seem to travel wel l, but over the last decade has been immense in home ashes series at least. Despite Jimmy getting the hype, I struggle to remember a series where Broad wasn't the pick of the pom bowlers. He was in this series also IMO, despite the hype around Archer. He always seemed to have us at 2 for not many and on the back foot early. The Ashes aren't everything of course and I haven't followed other series as closely. In the end it's tough to take a series where your openers are nipped out early for next to nothing, in every single match. Broad against our openers...11 wickets @ 5 apeice with an average stay at the crease per wicket of around 13 deliveries. Which then leaves Australia, outbowled by India, ranking lower that NZ and WI, as world class? How is that possible? Is Cummins that good?
A bit harsh to make a judgement under those circumstances (if you are referring to the last B/G series?). We were in turmoil with a new coach, a new captain and the main directive from CA involved reinventing our image, our only two world class batsmen suspended and team moral at an all time low point. Almost anyone would have beat us. One ordinary series is unlikely to be representative of overall standard IMO, particularly under the circumstances. I think Bumrah is the best in the world at the moment, but under normal circumstances India aren't outbowling us in Aus, nor are they taking a series. | View overall figures [change view] | | Primary team England | | Home or away home venue | | Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2010 | | Ordered by wickets taken (descending) |
Heya, thanks for your thoughts and reply. I'll let the numbers talk for Broad and Anderson at home. Jimmy is getting those wickets cheaper and slightly faster too. In the past 3 years, Anderson has gone freak mode at home and averaged well under 20 all three seasons. | View overall figures [change view] | | Primary team England | | Home or away home venue | | Start of match date between 1 Jan 2016 and 2 Jan 2019 | | Ordered by wickets taken (descending) |
Even with Broad's latest series - there is quite a distance between Jimmy and Broady. Broad is lucky to be in the team still really cos others keep getting injured - like Stone who England really want for his pace, or TRJ with his bounce off a seam. In fact, for both England and tourists both, Broad is below the average for Seamers in England since 2016... Here is the England average: | England | 17 | 2016-2019 | 27 | 6082 | 167* | 26.21 | 8 | 387 | 7/42 | 23.96 | 15 | 170 | 6 | 2.25 | |
Broad weighs the attack down according to the numbers. No matter how valuable he seems to England. The next is for every seamer - tourists as well. | View overall figures [change view] | | Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2016 | | Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler | | Grouped by host country | | Ordered by wickets taken (descending) |
68 fast bowlers have played in England in this time. This is quite some sample to get a feel for Broad and where he is at, and why Jimmy gets the hype. So that's my take on Broad done. I can take your point that Aus v India was a new captain and what not. But the Indian seam attack didn't announce itself in Australia when they outbowled Starc and Haze. They announced themselves much earlier in the year when they took on and destroyed SA - which the Aus attack was failing to match after the first test over there. SA only won cos of ABdV magic and their own destructive bowlers. The games were shootouts. India then more than competed, thanks only to their bowlers, in England against an Anderson who was on fire averaging like 14. Bhuevnish Kumar cannot even make the Indian team. Look at his record. Its excellent. Dropped after averaging 20 in SA... The same season your Aussie boys were there. I'm not fond of the BCCI, but credit due where its due, BCCI have a great seam attack. Sharma, who used to be the laughing stock of world cricket, is bowling slower, tighter, and more controlled than ever before. And he is getting rewards. Shami has pace and an outswinger, 150 clicks, then there is Bumrah. They have Kumar, a lovely swing bowler, carrying the drinks. And Yadav if they get desperate. Here are the bowling averages for pace bowlers by team since 2015 started, and it becomes obvious that India only went beserk with their attack since Bumrah in 2018. But - they are still beating your seamers in every segment. And these guys have had to play a lot of games in India, come on. Give India some credit, their seam attack has taken their team to a whole new level, that they were never at before. | View overall figures [change view] | | Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 jan 2018 | | Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler | | Grouped by team | | Ordered by bowling average (ascending) |
So lets wind back the clock then... Batting | Bowling | Fielding | All-round | Partnership | Team | Umpire and referee | Aggregate/overall| View overall figures [change view] | | Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2016 | | Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler | | Grouped by team | | Ordered by bowling average (ascending) |
Shall we go back further still? | View overall figures [change view] | | Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2015 | | Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler | | Grouped by team | | Ordered by bowling average (ascending) |
| Page 1 of 1 | Showing 1 - 12 of 12 | | First Previous | Next Last | |
I just don't buy into Aus seamers being as good as India's at present. And I think SA has been continuously world class for a long time.
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flyslip
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I am not calling this attack worldclass as yet. I think Archer will be, I don't know if Anderson will ever return, and I don't know enough about Stone. I don't know if Wood can shakes years of mediocrity, and I don't rate Stuart Broad. I just don't.
Broad doesn't always seem to travel well, but over the last decade has been immense in home ashes series at least. Despite Jimmy getting the hype, I struggle to remember a series where Broad wasn't the pick of the pom bowlers. He was in this series also IMO, despite the hype around Archer. He always seemed to have us at 2 for not many and on the back foot early. The Ashes aren't everything of course and I haven't followed other series as closely. In the end it's tough to take a series where your openers are nipped out early for next to nothing, in every single match. Broad against our openers...11 wickets @ 5 apeice with an average stay at the crease per wicket of around 13 deliveries. Which then leaves Australia, outbowled by India, ranking lower that NZ and WI, as world class? How is that possible? Is Cummins that good?
A bit harsh to make a judgement under those circumstances (if you are referring to the last B/G series?). We were in turmoil with a new coach, a new captain and the main directive from CA involved reinventing our image, our only two world class batsmen suspended and team moral at an all time low point. Almost anyone would have beat us. One ordinary series is unlikely to be representative of overall standard IMO, particularly under the circumstances. I think Bumrah is the best in the world at the moment, but under normal circumstances India aren't outbowling us in Aus, nor are they taking a series.
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