Youth development in Australia, where did it all go wrong?


Youth development in Australia, where did it all go wrong?

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tomw
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jas88 - 10 Dec 2021 8:25 PM
I think its quite similar to other industries like video games, 10-15 years ago everyone did it because they loved games now the industry is filled with people who love money not games.

Quite off topic I admit, but why on earth would you get into video games for money? You'll get paid twice as much for half the work in a real business, and will have time left over to actually enjoy some games.

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Neveraeurosnob - 16 Dec 2021 9:46 AM
Thanks for everyone for their insights and supportive comments! Appreciated. 
To cover some of the other questions and comments:
We live on the Central Coast. We have the Mariners and Central Coast United (CCU) as rep teams. Both  play NPL in football NSW (Sydney). Now these teams cover a population of 400K. Mariners are well known for picking Sydney and Newcastle youth players and almost impossible to infiltrate. They are good though and if you look at NPL positioning they tend to either win the comp or go close to winning most age groups. Not always the case but generally very good.  CCU pick the rest based on who they think are the best and of course 'who you know'.  Clearly by the way they perform, they aren't picking the best. 
This leaves a massive gap. There are a large number of very good youth that either can't or don't know how to develop further from a playing perspective as they have nowhere to go (or feels like that). We have been sold this idea that you 'need to be in the system'.  Many go to Newcastle and play there, but so many parents just can't drive that distance four times a week. The issue for the Central Coast, is that we are caught in no-mans land, between football NSW and football Northern NSW. I have never seen such a ridiculous system. Yet this area here is a breeding ground for quality players. It's a sporty area with sporty kids. There are huge numbers of community players and some players have managed to find their way to pro football, however so many more have that potential but are lost because they don't know what to do. I grew up in Sydney and thought it was a solid football city but the central coast - per population is amazing for football passion. Yet what do the kids here do beyond community football?


Feel your pain about travel and being in a 'no man's land'. There's some real talent up here in the mid north coast but at 5 hours each way to play in the NPL comp in Newcastle many give playing in the NPL away. (And the NPL sides from here have won the comp many times in the past.)

As for adult football for example, Coffs United was one game away from making the final 32 of the FFA cup only losing 1 nil to a Newcastle Olympic. And these blokes here are all rank amateurs. Not sure about Newcastle Olympic. Maybe Mono can tell me if they're paid and what they're actually level is.


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Can't edit the above so will repost here.

Having said that I don't know what the answer is to NPL zones. We're almost far enough North that it would make sense to play at the Gold coast. I think Lismore do that. Anything they try and work out has problems.




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Youth development will rise though a key difficult but crucial change needed along with Domestic Transfer System (Development Focus):
 - Increase and align the calendar for whole game (from Aleagues to grassroots) to be 36+ games, 9.5/10 months - Jan/Feb - Oct/Nov. Pro/rel throughout with 2nd div. Football must use its power through far superior participation numbers than any other code to push for this as this is necessary for our players to compete internationally and raise standards. All of the top countries are playing way more games than us with more teams and this is impacting our development. This will also increase and improve our fan culture/engagement as long offseasons can impact peoples love, development and continued support of the game in Aus.
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Munrubenmuz - 17 Dec 2021 8:32 AM
Can't edit the above so will repost here.

Having said that I don't know what the answer is to NPL zones. We're almost far enough North that it would make sense to play at the Gold coast. I think Lismore do that. Anything they try and work out has problems.


Couldn't places like Coffs Harbour, Port Macquarie, Tamworth et al. have rep teams playing in the NNSW NPL? Then players would only have to trek down to Newcastle for away games, and I imagine the first grade teams would even gather some fan support if they're playing at a high level and uniting the community behind them. Given that there's something like 800k people in NNSW outside the Hunter Valley, it seems like a massive missed opportunity for player development. 
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Great thread and thank you for clarifying your posts Neveraeurosnob.. 
Often while reading threads the real issues can be missed. It looks as though the main issue is the lack of a transfer system, which will create a market place and the demand for better development academies/ environments.

The questions this brings to mind are
-  If A higher division club (most likely A league club or NPL ) paid money for a player they take from a lower division (community or NPL) would this start a market place? 
- Is the transfer of Money for an athlete ( youth or any footballer) illegal in Australia? 

A bit of a stretch but does the Australian football market (a club/s) need to take a leaf out of the Crypto market, start with buying 1 player and work out the legalisation and any of the required control mechanisms later to ensure no malpractice. 

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tomw - 17 Dec 2021 8:22 AM
jas88 - 10 Dec 2021 8:25 PM

Quite off topic I admit, but why on earth would you get into video games for money? You'll get paid twice as much for half the work in a real business, and will have time left over to actually enjoy some games.

its bigger than the music and film industries combined...that's why... biggest industry on the planet... you must be over 40/50 I presume?

I know a guy who made a mobile chess game retired at 26.
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jas88 - 17 Dec 2021 1:28 PM
tomw - 17 Dec 2021 8:22 AM

its bigger than the music and film industries combined...that's why... biggest industry on the planet... you must be over 40/50 I presume?

I know a guy who made a mobile chess game retired at 26.

(I'm over 50 and I know this.)

Yes and the stupid short sighted government does nothing to try and help the industry in Australia. Meanwhile they're shelling out grants and incentives to movies and TV.

Another example of old people not seeing the future in front of them.





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df1982 - 17 Dec 2021 12:22 PM
Munrubenmuz - 17 Dec 2021 8:32 AM

Couldn't places like Coffs Harbour, Port Macquarie, Tamworth et al. have rep teams playing in the NNSW NPL? Then players would only have to trek down to Newcastle for away games, and I imagine the first grade teams would even gather some fan support if they're playing at a high level and uniting the community behind them. Given that there's something like 800k people in NNSW outside the Hunter Valley, it seems like a massive missed opportunity for player development. 

They do. https://northernnswfootball.com.au/competitions/npl/

Scroll down to youth. There's Port (Mid coast) and Coffs (North Coast).

10 out of 12 games are in Newcastle x 2.

Regional football is always going to have issues. To be fair at least the opportunities exist. They actually had to fight to get in is what I heard because the Newcastle teams didn't fancy a 5 hour bus trip each way. Meanwhile the poor buggers here are leaving at 6.00am on a Saturday (4 teams on the bus) and coming back at 10.30pm at night. (No parents allowed on the bus. That's not a complaint, just an observation.)


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Edited
3 Years Ago by Munrubenmuz
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jas88 - 17 Dec 2021 1:28 PM
tomw - 17 Dec 2021 8:22 AM

its bigger than the music and film industries combined...that's why... biggest industry on the planet... you must be over 40/50 I presume?

I know a guy who made a mobile chess game retired at 26.

Sure, but that money doesn't go to the developers (who I assume you are referring to above). They get eaten up and shat out by the development companies, who in turn are eaten up and shat out by the big publishers. This has been the case for decades, and is only getting worse. Which is why I decided against it.

Edited
3 Years Ago by tomw
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Munrubenmuz - 17 Dec 2021 2:22 PM
df1982 - 17 Dec 2021 12:22 PM

They do. https://northernnswfootball.com.au/competitions/npl/

Scroll down to youth. There's Port (Mid coast) and Coffs (North Coast).

10 out of 12 games are in Newcastle x 2.

Regional football is always going to have issues. To be fair at least the opportunities exist. They actually had to fight to get in is what I heard because the Newcastle teams didn't fancy a 5 hour bus trip each way. Meanwhile the poor buggers here are leaving at 6.00am on a Saturday (4 teams on the bus) and coming back at 10.30pm at night. (No parents allowed on the bus. That's not a complaint, just an observation.)

So they do for youth team football but not at senior level? That seems to be getting things the wrong way around. 
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df1982 - 17 Dec 2021 4:13 PM
Munrubenmuz - 17 Dec 2021 2:22 PM

So they do for youth team football but not at senior level? That seems to be getting things the wrong way around. 

Yes it's hard on regional areas and travel will be required if you want to play NPL. Mid north coast seem to do pretty well in NPL though so coaches are doing something right there. 
However the issue for Central Coast is that it is basically 'northern Sydney". Huge population, and yet only 2 rep teams and nowhere else for incredibly talented youth to play. As a country, we are missing out on the development of youth in an area where football is exceptionally strong. I would go as far to say that football is the number one sport here (overtaken taken Rugby league some years ago) and may be one of the few places in Australia where football is the no1 sport. 
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salary cap makes big transfer fees impossible thus it isnt really worth developing talent to sell if you cant make a profit 

thus the salary cap does more to hurt the viability of the league then help it. 

this isnt afl players have choices to ply there trade else where 

these Kangaroos can play football - 
Ange P. (Intercontinental WC Play-offs 2017) 

KEEP POLITICS OUT OF FOOTBALL

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Munrubenmuz - 17 Dec 2021 8:27 AM
Neveraeurosnob - 16 Dec 2021 9:46 AM

Feel your pain about travel and being in a 'no man's land'. There's some real talent up here in the mid north coast but at 5 hours each way to play in the NPL comp in Newcastle many give playing in the NPL away. (And the NPL sides from here have won the comp many times in the past.)

As for adult football for example, Coffs United was one game away from making the final 32 of the FFA cup only losing 1 nil to a Newcastle Olympic. And these blokes here are all rank amateurs. Not sure about Newcastle Olympic. Maybe Mono can tell me if they're paid and what they're actually level is.

Sorry Muz, I know next to nothing about Newcastle Olympic.
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Neveraeurosnob - 17 Dec 2021 7:03 PM
df1982 - 17 Dec 2021 4:13 PM

Yes it's hard on regional areas and travel will be required if you want to play NPL. Mid north coast seem to do pretty well in NPL though so coaches are doing something right there. 
However the issue for Central Coast is that it is basically 'northern Sydney". Huge population, and yet only 2 rep teams and nowhere else for incredibly talented youth to play. As a country, we are missing out on the development of youth in an area where football is exceptionally strong. I would go as far to say that football is the number one sport here (overtaken taken Rugby league some years ago) and may be one of the few places in Australia where football is the no1 sport. 

Hey mate, great to hear your journey and good luck with your lad  hope it works out. I know absolutely nothing about the central coast but do the state league clubs up there not have the opportunity to be promoted up to NPL?  If its the  umber one sport surely there are a club or two that can rise up the table?
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Monoethnic Social Club - 17 Dec 2021 9:29 PM
Neveraeurosnob - 17 Dec 2021 7:03 PM

Hey mate, great to hear your journey and good luck with your lad  hope it works out. I know absolutely nothing about the central coast but do the state league clubs up there not have the opportunity to be promoted up to NPL?  If its the  umber one sport surely there are a club or two that can rise up the table?

Cheers mate. Unfortunately no, there is no opportunity. 
Central Coast Football is a member of football NSW but only 2 NPL teams and there is no 'state league' here or teams playing in a state league.
There is a 'state league' in 'football northern NSW' and I know quite a few central coasties play in that league in Newcastle teams, but again draining players away from this region. 
Sure there are other ways of getting ahead: Trent Behagiar is a prodigy of the international football school we have on the central coast, while as I understand it Lachie Wales scored a spot at the Mariners academy from playing at his local community club, Terrigal.
The way I see it as a bit of a novice (i.e. just  a football loving parent) is Football nsw and central coast football have not been able to keep pace with the growth of football and the growth of the population in this region. Ultimately it means all of us (I mean all Australians who want to see football prosper) are missing out on seeing this football breeding ground developing to its full potential.



Edited
3 Years Ago by Neveraeurosnob
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Neveraeurosnob - 18 Dec 2021 7:48 AM
Monoethnic Social Club - 17 Dec 2021 9:29 PM

Cheers mate. Unfortunately no, there is no opportunity. 
Central Coast Football is a member of football NSW but only 2 NPL teams and there is no 'state league' here or teams playing in a state league.
There is a 'state league' in 'football northern NSW' and I know quite a few central coasties play in that league in Newcastle teams, but again draining players away from this region. 
Sure there are other ways of getting ahead: Trent Behagiar is a prodigy of the international football school we have on the central coast, while as I understand it Lachie Wales scored a spot at the Mariners academy from playing at his local community club, Terrigal.
The way I see it as a bit of a novice (i.e. just  a football loving parent) is Football nsw and central coast football have not been able to keep pace with the growth of football and the growth of the population in this region. Ultimately it means all of us (I mean all Australians who want to see football prosper) are missing out on seeing this football breeding ground developing to its full potential.



I think you will find that State League is now Football NSW League Three Mens. 

Lachlie Wales (Terrigal) came through the Mariners Academy as did Trent (Umina). Ollie originally came from Avoca Beach before the Academy (his father Vic - a former Socceroo ran his own Academy), Matty Simon played for East Gosford and I think also played for Central Coast Lightning ( a forerunner of CCU). Of the current young guys  in the squad that came through the Academy Jacob Farrell, Harrison Steele and Matt Hatch are all local.

The Mariners cast their net far and wide with recent players coming from Vic, Tas, ACT, SA and Qld as well as rural NSW, Sydney (especially Western Sydney) and Newcastle ,  - not just the Coast. That is unlikely to change.

What really needs to change is another rep side under the Football NSW umbrella with a full academy to complement CCU. I would like to see something around Doyalson or Budegwoi that caters for the northern part of the Coast better (Central Coast Lakers?). As you said a number of Coasties player in the NNSW area - but I find that that Federation is well below that of Football NSW. e.g. Jets Academy have chosen to play in Football NSW League Three Mens. rather than Football NNSW
 
Edited
3 Years Ago by patjennings
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patjennings - 18 Dec 2021 12:50 PM
Neveraeurosnob - 18 Dec 2021 7:48 AM

I think you will find that State League is now Football NSW League Three Mens. 

Lachlie Wales (Terrigal) came through the Mariners Academy as did Trent (Umina). Ollie originally came from Avoca Beach before the Academy (his father Vic - a former Socceroo ran his own Academy), Matty Simon played for East Gosford and I think also played for Central Coast Lightning ( a forerunner of CCU). Of the current young guys  in the squad that came through the Academy Jacob Farrell, Harrison Steele and Matt Hatch are all local.

The Mariners cast their net far and wide with recent players coming from Vic, Tas, ACT, SA and Qld as well as rural NSW, Sydney (especially Western Sydney) and Newcastle ,  - not just the Coast. That is unlikely to change.

What really needs to change is another rep side under the Football NSW umbrella with a full academy to complement CCU. I would like to see something around Doyalson or Budegwoi that caters for the northern part of the Coast better (Central Coast Lakers?). As you said a number of Coasties player in the NNSW area - but I find that that Federation is well below that of Football NSW. e.g. Jets Academy have chosen to play in Football NSW League Three Mens. rather than Football NNSW.
 

Well elucidated. Couldn't have put it better myself :)
I really agree with everything you've noted and you obviously have intricate knowledge of the Central Coast: Yes, another academy team in Central Coast is sorely needed. I thought Trent B was at the football school and didn't really go through the academy system per se?
However I might slightly disagree in that from what I've seen the top teams of the NNSW youth could match it with many of the football NSW teams. I believe the Jets academy experiment to play in football NSW NPL 2 was the wrong move. Sure, they seem to be winning or close to winning the various ages but when I was at the trials the feedback I received was parents of these kids just couldn't hack the travel of playing in Sydney every second week. I think in all likelihood they will revert back to NNSW. I think that would help that federation ultimately. 




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The next step for FNSW to take, having done the right thing in compressing the existing NPL clubs into 3 levels each with 16 clubs to give players more games, is to start an NPL 4 division with another 16 clubs.  NPL 4 and 3 could have less requirements to reduce the costs of participating for those clubs.

There is difficulty in a state the size of NSW to provide equal opportunity for regional players.  There are 45k registered players spread across the FNSW regions, 15k on the Central Coast, 15k in the Illawarra and the remainder spread across 15 Regional Associations of 500 to 3k in size.  With 190k spread across the 15 District Associations in Greater Sydney it is obvious that the large majority of clubs on the competitive pathway will be located there.
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3 Years Ago by Gyfox
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Gyfox - 19 Dec 2021 10:55 AM
The next step for FNSW to take, having done the right thing in compressing the existing NPL clubs into 3 levels each with 16 clubs to give players more games, is to start an NPL 4 division with another 16 clubs.  NPL 4 and 3 could have less requirements to reduce the costs of participating for those clubs.

There is difficulty in a state the size of NSW to provide equal opportunity for regional players.  There are 45k registered players spread across the FNSW regions, 15k on the Central Coast, 15k in the Illawarra and the remainder spread across 15 Regional Associations of 500 to 3k in size.  With 190k spread across the 15 District Associations in Greater Sydney it is obvious that the large majority of clubs on the competitive pathway will be located there.

Do you we have number of participants for each association? We could then work out if certain associations are under represented in Football NSW competitions.
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theFOOTBALLlover - 19 Dec 2021 1:07 PM
Gyfox - 19 Dec 2021 10:55 AM

Do you we have number of participants for each association? We could then work out if certain associations are under represented in Football NSW competitions.

The 2019 Yearbook is the last FNSW source without being affected by Covid.  There is a table on Page 81.

https://footballnsw.com.au/about/annual-reports-and-yearbooks/

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Gyfox - 19 Dec 2021 7:45 PM
theFOOTBALLlover - 19 Dec 2021 1:07 PM

The 2019 Yearbook is the last FNSW source without being affected by Covid.  There is a table on Page 81.

https://footballnsw.com.au/about/annual-reports-and-yearbooks/

So Central Coast is one of the largest associations, with 14.5K players. From what I can tell, the entire northern NSW football federation only has about 33K registrants and some of these would be central coast players but registered in northern NSW. 
https://www.soccerscene.com.au/northern-nsw-football-record-strong-player-registration-numbers-for-2021-season/
It would be good to hear other voices, but I'm really not sure we have the development system right in NSW to cater for where the players are, but acknowledge the constraints outlined.
I think one short sighted issue has been not taking into account population projections. In the 1970's there were only about 70K on the central coast. It's risen roughly 6x fold since then. 




Edited
3 Years Ago by Neveraeurosnob
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Neveraeurosnob - 19 Dec 2021 7:33 AM
patjennings - 18 Dec 2021 12:50 PM

Well elucidated. Couldn't have put it better myself :)
I really agree with everything you've noted and you obviously have intricate knowledge of the Central Coast: Yes, another academy team in Central Coast is sorely needed. I thought Trent B was at the football school and didn't really go through the academy system per se?
However I might slightly disagree in that from what I've seen the top teams of the NNSW youth could match it with many of the football NSW teams. I believe the Jets academy experiment to play in football NSW NPL 2 was the wrong move. Sure, they seem to be winning or close to winning the various ages but when I was at the trials the feedback I received was parents of these kids just couldn't hack the travel of playing in Sydney every second week. I think in all likelihood they will revert back to NNSW. I think that would help that federation ultimately. 


Can't hack the travel to Sydney? Tell that to the 13 to 17 year olds travelling 5 hours each way to play in the NPL Newcastle from Coffs. Some of the kids were coming from Yamba and Maclean (1 and half hours north) to get on the bus in Coffs at 6am and then travel down.

I realise you're not saying the travel is too much just pointing out what you've heard.

Harden up young fellas.




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Gyfox - 19 Dec 2021 7:45 PM
theFOOTBALLlover - 19 Dec 2021 1:07 PM

The 2019 Yearbook is the last FNSW source without being affected by Covid.  There is a table on Page 81.

https://footballnsw.com.au/about/annual-reports-and-yearbooks/

Thanks for the link. Where's Football Mid North and Far North coast in that? 

In fact where's Ballina, Byron, Maclean etc? (Or have I missed something?)







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Edited
3 Years Ago by Munrubenmuz
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Munrubenmuz - 20 Dec 2021 10:45 AM
Neveraeurosnob - 19 Dec 2021 7:33 AM

Can't hack the travel to Sydney? Tell that to the 13 to 17 year olds travelling 5 hours each way to play in the NPL Newcastle from Coffs. Some of the kids were coming from Yamba and Maclean (1 and half hours north) to get on the bus in Coffs at 6am and then travel down.

I realise you're not saying the travel is too much just pointing out what you've heard.

Harden up young fellas.


Sorry I think I meant to say it's the parents issue not a prob for the kids!
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Munrubenmuz - 20 Dec 2021 10:50 AM
Gyfox - 19 Dec 2021 7:45 PM

Thanks for the link. Where's Football Mid North and Far North coast in that? 

In fact where's Ballina, Byron, Maclean etc? (Or have I missed something?)





That's football NSW annual report. Those areas you mention are part of northern nsw football. 
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Neveraeurosnob - 20 Dec 2021 12:33 PM
Munrubenmuz - 20 Dec 2021 10:50 AM

That's football NSW annual report. Those areas you mention are part of northern nsw football. 

Ah. That'd explain it.

Thanks


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Lack of money

CF English football has spent one billion pounds in 10 years of the elite player pathway
4 per cent transfer levy helps

Europe is funding the war not Chelsea football club

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dirkvanadidas - 25 Dec 2021 7:49 AM
Lack of money

CF English football has spent one billion pounds in 10 years of the elite player pathway
4 per cent transfer levy helps

Maybe explains England's youth development, but doesn't explain Central and South America. Nor many parts of Europe without those levels of investment and of course there is Africa to consider.
From my observations, Its about weak football culture, much of this is reflected in our football architecture [Closed Football League with associated salary caps, EOI for entry into First Tier,  and regulations, NPL Licence requirements, Member Federation involvement in youth identification and development, no transfer system], we don't use the proven Global Model and we pay for it.
These all contribute to our poor player development outcomes.
Let alone our geographic location in the world, we border no world powers in football, this also isolates us from the pressures of competitiveness.
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Arthur - 25 Dec 2021 11:16 AM
dirkvanadidas - 25 Dec 2021 7:49 AM

Maybe explains England's youth development, but doesn't explain Central and South America. Nor many parts of Europe without those levels of investment and of course there is Africa to consider.
From my observations, Its about weak football culture, much of this is reflected in our football architecture [Closed Football League with associated salary caps, EOI for entry into First Tier,  and regulations, NPL Licence requirements, Member Federation involvement in youth identification and development, no transfer system], we don't use the proven Global Model and we pay for it.
These all contribute to our poor player development outcomes.
Let alone our geographic location in the world, we border no world powers in football, this also isolates us from the pressures of competitiveness.

All good points - but I think it is more about the culture than the architecture. Kids play FIFA more than live with a football at their feet all the time. Training - even every day is still not the same as living and breathing football every day. When kids wake up and kick a ball around from morning to night all day, where people play for the love of the game we will have a football culture  - until then we will have a football industry. 
GO


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