The discussion in the 4th Test is probably more pertinent now to the 5th test, so I started this thread.

Other than Paddles rating Australia as currently having a pop gun bowling attack and Mike advocating the dropping of Hazlewood from the Test team and NSW Shield dream, are there any other thoughts about selections for the last Ashes test?

Lol, I didn't say pop gun, but I won't call it world class. You dropped Haze and Starc for a reason, and they only just returned...

The only issue is whether your openers get another chance. And whether you bring back Pattinson or Siddle for Starc. 

The openers have failed to score more than a 13 run partnership over 8 attempts this Ashes series. It is an appalling state of affairs.

Shame Renshaw isn't in better form.

Appalling is an understatement. Yes ditto about Renshaw. He would have done better than this dross they call openers. At least he boasts a decent technique with not many flaws that I can see.  I wanna see him smash down the door this summer and put up an irresistible claim for a national recall. If a player like Matt Wade with far less talent can do that.. Renshaw can. He needs to rediscover his confidence.

Renshaw would have been a horrible choice. He averaged 22 in Sheffield Shield.He did play div 1 county cricket but I cant find him listed anywhere on the top run scorer charts. Hes also a lefty and lefties have struggled this series. The big omission was Joe Burns

We dont know that. Before this English county season he hit three centuries and scored 500 - runs in county red ball matches. His form was at its peak at that stage then it nosedived dramatically and inexplicably. Would love to know why.

Why not Joe Burns? He scored a 100 last test?! 

He was harshly dropped to begin with. Everyone bar Smith was struggling vs SA and SL in 2016.

I think Burns is more suited to batting further down the order. 

Joe struggles against  the moving ball. Who doesnt these days. There is simply too much white ball cricket and blokes forget their techniques. Both he and Kurtis Patterson were harshy treated after coming off last test centuries. Reckon both would have scored more runs than this lot. Surely some of them wont be incumbents for much longer. 

I was very impressed with him in some Subcontinental Tests. 

Renshaw had a good defence and could bat time at only 20-21 years of age. 

He was remniscent of Bill Lawry. 

Bowlers are interesting.

I think only H and Starc should definitely be retained based on form and freshness.

Cummins -  is exhausted. He needs a rest and should be preserved unit the next Test match in Aus.

Lyon - I think has a finger injury in his bowling hand effecting his performances. If he is injured  he should be replaced.

Pattinson - bowled well in his two games, apart from  two expensive overs in the last game.  

Or just a CA cover up for his mediocre performances. Hard to say if it is the finger injury affecting this performance as they dont appear to be any different from his others when he supposedly had all fingers intact. That is.. except the first match when he actually looked like the GOAT.

Mate you try to take the Dukes away from Cummo now. No way. There is plenty of time for all our quicks to freshen up before the first test of the summer.
If CA was sentimental it should give Peter Siddle a swan song as almost certain this is his last series in a baggy green .

Mike as usual is an absolute joke DC. Or is he only trying to rile me? He knows, like you and I and thousands of supporters..that Josh is having a superb Ashes. Just hates to admit it. As for our pop gun pace attack...includes Pattinson and the brilliant Jhye Richardson..I would pit it against any in the world at the moment.. specially on these Pommie decks.

While I think it would be fair to see those in the squad that have not had a crack so far.. namely Mike Neser and Mitch Marsh.. I suspect CA will remain with the 11 that sealed the win. Warner will remain for this summer on past glories .. nothing else. Time he was moved on as eye players like him.. go quicker than touch players. His dropping figures reflect that both at home and abroad. But CA will drag out this old chestnut'' Davey has credit in the bank" I'd prefer to see Khawaja stay and Warner go.

My thoughts exactly, Baggers.

They say great minds think alike, or fools never differ!

I'l go with the first one DC.

Funnily enough, after talking to DC, I have invited this very conversation in the intl cricket thread. And included the current ratings. :P

I would be very pleased for you to have a read and comment. DC too. I left out what I think of as a pop gun seam attacks, SL, and Bangladesh. Although, I probably should have included Ireland cos Murtagh is some player :)

I agree eye players fade more quickly as they have less technique to fall back on. But this is the same David Warner who crunched how many centuries in the world cup? 3 of them! Bowlers bowl faster in limited overs than test. And he crunched the IPL before that this year too averaging an absurd 69 in t20! You can seam, swing, red ball, etc, but some of these test pitches have been quite flat mid way through the games. And he always facing at least a couple of overs of seam and swing as an pyajama opener. 

I think its more mental. I think Broad, the English crowds, what happened in SA, I don't think he's quite with it. Despite his early run leading in the WC, he was never being talked up with Rohit or Shakib. He was never going to make the ICC team, which on performances, he deserved ahead of Jason Roy (who scored 1 ton and missed half the games!!!).  The press did not comment on this, in fact, the only time it was raised, it was like - well you know why he won't be in the ICC team.

He has never liked playing tests in England, the crowd has been into him ever since Joe Root in 2013, he has a bad record in NZ, with only one score above 50 in test and odi combined, and I can tell you that not only the crowd go after him here, the media does too. 

I think its mental. I think he is mentally checked out right now.He needs a break, and watch some car dunes on his OLED, and get ready to smash Pakistan and NZ at home.

Please dont compare white ball with red ball performances. Warner is and has always been crap facing the moving red ball. Reason his average in England is mediocre at best while overinflated in Oz. I dont give a hoot whether he smashed 10 centuries in the WC the Ashes are oranges and lemons. or is it apples? There may have been some mental strain given the Pommie crowds vitriole towards he and smithy but he is a big boy now. Put simply Broad had the wood over him because of his crap technique and habit of staying stuck deep in his crease because of lack of footwork. Of the Broad dismissals I saw he did not come onto the front foot once. 

Fine, red ball only -

Warner carried his bat in his second test in a greenie in Hobart that Aus lost with the ball doing all sorts. His second ever test.

He averages 63 in SA. SA, some of the deadliest pitches of them all. Philander, Steyn, Morkel, Abbot, all taken to the sword by Davey in SA. Class of 2018, Davey again put up some fight against Rabada, Ngidi, Philander, Morkel, he was doing better there than Smith that series.

So I think its safe to say he can handle a red ball with some life in the pitch, or some bowlers much the better of Broad. This is his worst Ashes ever, and Anderson is not even playing right now. 7 single figure scores. So you say his eye is going, 

But this is 3 ducks in a row. 3 ducks. If his eye was going he'd have a problem with pace, I believe. But he clearly doesn't. Like you say, its lack of footwork, just dabling, proding, leaving his bat hanging out. Playing at stuff he should be leaving or having a real crack at. He is checked out. At least when he concrete foot before, he would go hard at the ball, but he's not. He's tentative. He needs to crack a few off the middle of the bat, and I think he will be back in no time. 

I do not believe his eye is just going yet. It may be. You may be proven right. But I don't think so just yet. I think he is mentally exhausted. Now with the Ashes secure, he can perhaps play with some freedom in the next test? 

he's a class player but I think if someone is good at the short forms some people can be biased against their abilities in test

Don't disagree, there. Rohit Sharma, Martin Guptill, now J Bairstow, Jason Roy and Jos Buttler are magnificent examples of this. 

But none of these guys - bar perhaps Guptill - have lost their eye just yet. They can smash the ball coming down at 150 clicks. They've just never had the shot rotation for test cricket success like  Smith, Kohli and KW do. Now its easy to say that Warner has always been a boundary hitter, and less of a foot mover, and compared to a text book wall like Pujara, this is certainly the case. But Warner has found success in red ball in the past in tricky decks. I don't think its Warner's eye. 

yeah its tough coming off a year break. Just makes what smith did even more crazy

Not good if that is CA’s thinking. 

If Usman is younger than Warner, I’d prefer to see him open instead. 

What is our record since 2001 at The Oval? Will look up some stats.  Just an aside in my opinion this is the ugliest ground in England with its eyesore of a gas metre and ordinary looking stands.

It is ugly. 


It has often been a bouncy wicket.

Matches at The Oval since 2001.

5th Test: England v Australia at The Oval - Sep 8-12, 2005

England 373 and 335; Australia 367 and 4/0

5th Test: England v Australia at The Oval - Aug 20-23, 2009

England 332 and 373/9d; Australia 160 and 348 (102.2 ov, target: 546)

5th Test: England v Australia at The Oval - Aug 21-25, 2013

Australia 492/9d and 111/6d; England 377 and 206/5 (40 ov, target: 227)

5th Investec Test: England v Australia at The Oval - Aug 20-23, 2015

Australia 481; England 149 and 286 (101.4 ov) (f/o)

6 quicks averaging less then 30 that you can rotate around (in an era where the home pitches are drop in roads) I would call the best we've ever had

remember brett lee who I'd call world class averaged 30

I hope we rotate again and give pattinson the new ball. He's shown a lot of promise and I can't wait for him to come good

Back on topic, team selection wise what do we do. Say its one last test and keep Warner in because he'll be needed come home summer? Or bring in Khawaja for him or Harris? Only other question would be the quicks. Do we take Starc back out or rest Cummins or go unchanged? 

redcat it is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. They all suck over here. Personally I'd give Bancroft another crack. Yes he has a dodgy technique that he must fix soon.. but his stats show he eats up deliveries and time against the hard Dukes cherry before falling. This then makes it easier for those following. Khawaja also spent some time too before his leaden feet gets him out.

I addressed this in an earlier post. 

Because of Cummins’ fatigue, where his average speed is dropping from Test to Test, rest him and retain Starc. 

Bring in Patto to replace Cummins. 

If Lyon has a finger injury, we could replace him with Holland, or Siddle. 

I am not sure if Labu, Smith and Head could perform the back up spin though? 

I liked.. firstly that Tim had confidence in bringing Marnus in at a crucial time in the match and secondly the way he bowled using his bouncy leggies into the footmarks. It showed the heart for the battle that this little guy possesses. I had hoped Smithy had tidied up his bowling as he gives it a big tweak. He is a touch tidier but still can not build sufficient pressure to be any more than a part time option.

I have Siddle playing as a swan song for the big-hearted Vicco. Not sure who he replaces. Starc is my choice as his three wickets were at @31 while his strike rate was almost 60. DC even if Cummins pace has dropped he is still a serious competitor. He has plenty of time to recuperate before his next test match on Nov 21..

I reckon they will bring Khawaja back in for Warner. Pattinson for Starc.

Thought Starc did enough against the Poms at Old Trafford.

I dont. He had the one good spell. Figures reflect his inconsistency. @31.5 - 57s/r. The bloke is toast. I want Cummins, Hazlewood, Jhye Richardson and Pattinson as our attack for the summer. But Starc will be picked as lefties add balance. Oh for a consistent leftie then. Is Behrendorff able to play a five day game?

Dorff is a pop gun, who swings a new ball and then becomes innocuous.

I've seen him play Shield cricket at Bellerive a bit. He is one of the plethora of Aussie mediocre fast bowlers, who look great in the Shield, but will be innocuous in international red ball cricket.

We disagree here. I have seen him play shield cricket at other venues. Did he not take 8 or was in 9for at the WACA a year or so back before his latest back injury. he will provide the balance a lefty offers plus he will not leak runs like Starc does. He has almost as lethal an inswinging yorker as Starc tho a touch slower.

Dorf is about 15 - 20 kph slower than Starc! 

From what Langer is saying publicly, it is unlikely.

Inexplicably, like many young players, he lost form. 

We really need Renshaw firing again. 

Think there may be more to it. A loss of form usually means for several months. Renshaw's has been lost for at least 12 months. It looks like a confidence issue to me. Some take longer to bounce back from adversity than others. Must have been a huge blow to him when he was dropped from the side. I heard he had run ins with Langer over being late for training too. That certainly will put you off side with a coach. 

Informative post, Baggers. 

I’m sure Langer can realise Renshaw’s potential if he evaluates his Test performances. 

Issue with Renshaw is his peak wasn't great either. He can bat time but honestly he is average at best

Peter Handscomb. Is his technique solid enough at Test level or is it flimsy as per his reputation? I haven’t watched much of him 

He had a good first  test season at home.

Then Hanscomb struggled away and at home since that first successful season when he played test cricket.

His technique is definitely an issue if the pitch is doing anything at all, so always.

I'd have to disagree.

When he was selected and in form, I saw him bat longer than most of his Aussie team-mates who struggled in the Subcontinent.

Renshaw's defence was sound - a rare quality in most of our batters.

 Maybe he didn't  score quickly enough, but he was able to keep his wicket intact under great pressure when team-mates were falling around  him.