Dunno DC.. prob not.. Just a matter of going thru the archives. I am betting there have been far less embarrassing collapses under Paine than were under Smith. There was however a silver lining to those collapso days.. it established Smith as the batsmen he has become. How often did he carry us in those days.

The last post is probably more applicable to the return of Warner and Smith. 

At at least one has always been in from, plus the emergence of Labu. 

Boult was the worst I have seen him bowl. Clearly under done for this match. It was he that got Head going with a succession of flashing square cuts off very wide deliveries. The Kiwis quicks sure missed a trick not bowling in the correct areas against he and Paine.. neither have a sound technique.

It probably is an excellent point, Baggers, but do we have stats to support less collapses since Paine’s captaincy? 

Particularly in the context of the death of Phil Hughes. 

McCullum thought the Kiwis gave up too much. 

Santner may be outclassed, but I thought the Kiwis bowled many good balls, particularly Southee swinging the ball into the lefties with his orthodox outswinger to right hand batters. 

I don’t have the knowledge, but maybe you are correct about not bowling more at 4th and 5th stumps? 

One Aussie plan seems to be trying bowling line and length to hit the top of off to the right handers. 

Similarly I wonder if its no coincidence that we started playing with more determination and mental strength (with more results to show) since Tim Paine reformed our sportsmanship. I mean I like sledging  as much as the next person but there is a difference between sledging and bullying. How often have we collapsed since Paine has taken over? 
That is a very good point.

I am not sure who else saw it? 

On Fox Paine took a journo into the change rooms. He presented very much as a much more mature man leading some fairly immature boys - including Smith. 

He interacted  with Labu, Smith, Head, Hazlewood and Neser in front of the camera. 

Importantly, he, Cummins and Lyon have lived as ordinary citizens outside the elite cricket milieu or bubble. 

I missed that, what did he say?

Southee seemed afraid of the stumps. I'm not going off stats mind you but it seemed like very few of his balls were near the 4th or 5th stump let alone the off stump

De grandhomme was a bit better

ATM using short balls a lot is losing them the series. 

It may have effected Wade and Smith’s confidence but other Aussies have cashed in. 

I thought McCullum’s crtiticism Of The Kiwis was overly harsh. 

I thought they fought hard all day in the field. 

yeah as I explained in the other thread, I don't think its effective. This has been an unusually ineffective kiwi team given how tough they've been in the past to beat. The problem is the safety and the example. Even if it caused run rates to go to 6po and averages to balloon over 40 I'd still call it out

I remember hearing R Hadlee once saying the short ball had a low probability of taking wickets for him - hence he didn’t bowl many. 

I just wonder if the short pitched bowling was good for Paine having more opportunities to score runs? 

Paine sledges, but it is often funny. 

In a mid pitch break yesterday, I loved how Wagner and Paine/Head had a friendly conversation. 

Importantly, which seems to be lost in the attitude on some cricket forums, the respect of the Aussie cricket team has been regained by the public. 

I don’t know if we fight harder in adversity, but a better team spirit helps. 

yeah variable bounce on day 1 first session. Hope it doesn't break up

a fair bit in it for the bowlers

Merry Xmas, TB. 

From what I’ve seen it is a hard pitch to score quickly on ATM. 

yeah its insane how unnecessary it is. New zealand have one of the best attacks in the world and nearly won a world cup with beautiful conventional sportsman like line and length bowling. When it comes to the scoreboard I'm much more worried about bowlers who attack the stumps, my problem is with the safety and the bad influence

I've gotta wonder if this unsportsmanlike behaviour is affecting their performance. Regardless of ICC rankings, NZ have always been one of the most difficult teams to face on home soil with their heroic determination. They've even drawn series here when we had our golden period if I recall correctly. Right now they are as competitive as zimbabwe here despite our team being weak by our historical standards (to be fair there is still some time to turn things around in the series I suppose. They certainly have the class to do it). Its kind of sad, with even kane williamson playing like a bunny. I mean I'm sure the kiwi team says all the right things to the camera but I'm sure it has to affect you mentally to be a team whose natural game is to be nice and see your teammate play like this.

Similarly I wonder if its no coincidence that we started playing with more determination and mental strength (with more results to show) since Tim Paine reformed our sportsmanship. I mean I like sledging  as much as the next person but there is a difference between sledging and bullying. How often have we collapsed since Paine has taken over? There are times that we have shown more mental strength than in the Michael Bevin days with the exception maybe of Warner in the ashes (who is probably still a bit of a bad boy, sublimely talented mind you). Paine is hopeless at the DRS and I don't rate his keeping as high as others, I also don't have any illusions about us being the good guys now, but gee its made a difference the change in team culture. Ironic because the old culture was justified as "winning at all costs"

Got a laugh out of the kiwi commentator when Wagner got Smith with a rare really good short one lol. Seems that they're happy getting him for anything less than a hundred, a mere 85 is a great victory apparently. 

I also thought it was strange the way they bigged up the short stuff to Smith in the first test too. They seem to have overlooked that he was struggling and had already nicked off to the slips a couple of times that weren't taken (and should have been run out). But nah, gotta to bowl short. I think they might end up playing him into form at this rate.

edit.

Good to see Paine free his arms, also a good knock from Head. Full marks to Smith also, for steadying the ship on day 1. It didn't seem like such an easy wicket to score on.

As it's a different base to the old drop in, hope it breaks up towards the end of the match. Will help Lyon if it does.

I wonder if the kiwis bowled first because of the conditions, or they just didn't like the idea of facing our bowlers those conditions. Maybe both?

Only Abbot and Bumrah have outbowled Wagner in Australia as a tourist this decade so far.... Not bad seeing Southee stole all the tail end wickets today (again). Bumrah, though - clearly an outstanding bowler. But then - Wagner is taking on the full Australian team. It does seem, match after match, that Australian batsmen do not find his military medium short stuff easy to score from and not lose their wicket too. Match after match. Its 3 matches in a row now. If only the rest of the Kiwi bowlers gave Neil some support. NZ should really be looking for a new Neil Wagner clone already.  And several of them. 

I think Australia might have to expect a few more short barrage sessions coming their way soon until they learn to play it as well as the other nations Neil bowls it too. Cos right now - he likes bowling to Aus.

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
KJ Abbott (SA)	2016-2016	2	4	74.5	19	193	13	6/77	9/118	14.84	2.57	34.5	1	0
JJ Bumrah (INDIA)	2018-2019	4	8	157.1	48	357	21	6/33	9/86	17.00	2.27	44.9	1	0
N Wagner (NZ)	2019-2019	2	3	98.0	22	234	11	4/83	7/151	21.27	2.38	53.4	0	0
CS Martin (NZ)	2011-2011	2	4	61.0	11	179	8	3/46	4/89	22.37	2.93	45.7	0	0
K Rabada (SA)	2016-2016	3	6	108.1	20	336	15	5/92	7/170	22.40	3.10	43.2	1	0
Mohammad Asif (PAK)	2010-2010	2	4	92.0	22	246	10	6/41	8/94	24.60	2.67	55.2	1	0
CT Tremlett (ENG)	2010-2013	4	8	158.3	33	517	21	5/87	8/150	24.61	3.26	45.2	1	0
TT Bresnan (ENG)	2010-2013	4	8	145.1	39	421	16	4/50	6/75	26.31	2.90	54.4	0	0
M Morkel (SA)	2012-2012	3	5	109.0	23	399	14	5/146	8/196	28.50	3.66	46.7	1	0
RA Jadeja (INDIA)	2018-2019	2	3	89.0	25	200	7	3/82	5/127	28.57	2.24	76.2	0	0
VD Philander (SA)	2012-2016	5	9	170.3	38	482	16	5/21	5/52	30.12	2.82	63.9	1	0
Mohammed Shami (INDIA)	2014-2019	7	14	263.1	43	956	31	6/56	6/136	30.83	3.63	50.9	2	0
JM Anderson (ENG)	2010-2018	15	28	627.1	163	1713	55	5/43	7/127	31.14	2.73	68.4	1	0
RAS Lakmal (SL)	2013-2019	2	3	57.0	14	188	6	5/75	5/75	31.33	3.29	57.0	1	0
DAJ Bracewell (NZ)	2011-2015	5	10	159.1	25	540	17	6/40	9/60	31.76	3.39	56.1	1	0
Z Khan (INDIA)	2011-2012	4	6	147.0	22	477	15	4/77	7/130	31.80	3.24	58.8	0	0
DW Steyn (SA)	2012-2016	4	6	122.1	25	421	13	4/40	7/112	32.38	3.44	56.3	0	0
BA Stokes (ENG)	2013-2014	4	8	116.5	14	492	15	6/99	8/161	32.80	4.21	46.7	1	0
KP Pietersen (ENG)	2010-2014	10	3	9.0	1	33	1	1/10	1/10	33.00	3.66	54.0	0	0
ST Finn (ENG)	2010-2010	3	6	107.4	9	464	14	6/125	6/150	33.14	4.30	46.1	1	0
HMRKB Herath (SL)	2012-2013	3	5	134.4	16	407	12	5/95	7/142	33.91	3.02	67.3	1	0
Wahab Riaz (PAK)	2016-2017	3	5	100.0	14	400	11	4/89	5/136	36.36	4.00	54.5	0	0
PD Collingwood (ENG)	2010-2011	5	6	31.0	6	73	2	1/3	1/5	36.50	2.35	93.0	0	0
TA Boult (NZ)	2011-2019	5	9	171.0	23	660	18	5/60	7/101	36.66	3.85	57.0	1	0
TG Southee (NZ)	2011-2019	7	12	256.0	49	851	23	5/69	9/162	37.00	3.32	66.7	1	0
SCJ Broad (ENG)	2010-2018	12	21	426.4	96	1264	34	6/81	8/136	37.17	2.96	75.2	1	0

Philander, Steyn, Anderson, Broad, all in his wake tbh... interesting. But for me - and I said beofre the series started I would be interested in this - its getting Smith 3/3 this series and 4/5 in career with the short ball. I find this fascinating. Smith made a great 80 odd today - total champion, but that's half his career average at the MCG. And he was rattled with so many times yesterday and today by Wagner. 

Fascinating stuff. Love test contests between bat and ball. Love Neil Wagner. Such a great addition to world cricket. Hope he gives us 3 more years.

I get why Australia are so bad in Asia, it spins, but why are you so bad against short pitched military medium? I mean the Asian teams like SL seem to play it better, tbh. Only Bangladesh has played it as badly as Aus.

Still unlike most teams, Aus will get a 4th test after this one to show that they can play the short military medium 5'8" Wagner half trackers... But I think Aus may have to get used to a lot more short stuff next year...

The kiwis aren't out of it yet obviously, but they are making it difficult for themselves. That wasn't a great bowling performance on day 1 especially. When you put the opposition in to make use of good bowling conditions with the ball swinging and seaming around, yet your 120k part time trundler is by far your best and most threatening bowler, something is wrong.

Some very strange tactics being used. It seems they must have concluded before the series began that their bowling wasn't up to task, so they are going unconventional. It's making for some scrappy (aka ugly) cricket. It is also helping us IMO, apart from slowing the scoring rate. Perhaps slowing us down is the aim of it?

They may storm it from here and make it seem a genius move. Then again Santner might also bag a five fa (0-228 after 3 innings at the moment). 

If they can dawdle their way to 300 or more this might be drawn match, unless someone collapses spectacularly 2nd innings.

Starc fast but inaccurate. I saw him swing one with the new cherry. Agree on Pattinson.. All the talk that he was ready to rip in. Looked menacing at first and then he dropped off. Star for mine was Cummins.. accurate, threatening. Back to his best. Be good to see what they produce tomorrow as the temps are rising.

Bowling outside leg stump isnt a wide in test cricket unless a deliberate no scoring ploy. You want a new wide rule for Wagner or for test cricket in general?

It won't stop Wagner, he bowls far less outside leg than Hick claims. Fox, 7 and cric vix have the stats. It won't stop Neil. He is fit enough, and successful enough to bowl 27 wides a day and not care. But he won't be bowling that many wide of leg stump :) Maybe 8 a day max. Being generous against Neil. I doubt its even that high. He is a left armer after all and bowls around to left hand batsmen...

And you don't get a wide for hitting a player. Anywhere. Ever. A wide means wide of the person. You cannot be hit as a batsman and ask for a wide. Not even on your pad. You need to find a reason why Wagner should be stopped.

If its safety, bouncers at the head and bowling 140+ are far more dangerous to player welfare and safety. if the batsman cared about their own safety, they would play a shot or evade it, instead of letting it hit them in wicket preservation mode and not even trying to move out of the way early.

That is the problem with every argument. Wagner is not as dangerous as a fast bowler at the head. Starc will likely kill or hospitalize someone if not many before Neil. We all know this. Neil isnt at heads. And isn't fast. So its not about safety. Wade wears these on the elbow repeatedly and happily. He could wave the bat or avoid them. He chooses not too.

So if not safety. And if Wagner wants them to play shots on the leg side, which he does, as he bowls it close enough to hit, its not negative, so what's the issue? 

The issue is you don't like it. It's that simple. But there is no other reason. Its not safety, you like fast bowlers bowling at heads at 150km. Its not defensive or negative cricket, Wagner wants the batsman to play a pull shot. He really does. Here is a short ball at 128 km/h - hit it. But they don't want to cos a fielder is there. And that is why you just don't like it. It's that simple. You don't like the field being set for it. Fielders have nothing to do with safety. :) And bowling to your field is not negative - esp when you want catches!

Wagner and world cricket needs a better reason than Aussie fans don't like it. Now if he does it to India and Kohli, and they cry, the rules may get changed, or NZC just tell him to stop. But what rule changes, no pitching outside leg ever?  Bye bye Warnie bowled behind legs. Nothing bouncing above hip more than twice an over? Bye bye catches off cut shots and many gully catches. I mean any rule change will wreck cricket for life.

But its India's game for fans. No other fans matter cos they're not worth money.  Let's see if Wagner does it to India. And if their fans moan. :) And demand changes. Lets see how cricket gets ruined for life.

If India does, NZC  might bow to India and stop letting him bowl it seeing they own the world game and will actually tour NZ once every 6 years and let us make some money playing them... -unlike certain nations. :) But NZC only owes every other nation that it abides by the rules. India is special, we need their crumbs. You may worry about Wagner'ship and rub balls. I worry about how NZC, Ban, SCA, Pak, SL, WI will remain financially viable. But noone else seems to care about that... :) Different priorities I guess. But if NZC dig deep, and the rules change. Well if the game descends to what fans do like and do not like, the only fans that matter are Indian. That's the reality.

Will India with Yadav, Bumrah, Shami and Sharma want to bowl it next year to Smith? Or have above hip height balls banned. Hmmm. Interesting.

When I was a kid, Cricket Australia ruled world cricket. Its hilarious some of their fans seem to think they still do. The Aus fan is not paying anyone else's bills, the only thing that matters is the Indian fan that is paying bills. If fan likes matter to rule changes...

Put simply, its not about safety. Its about what fans like. Aus fans don't pay the bills for NZC, SCA, SL, Ban, WI, Pak, Afg, Ire, Ind, Eng, so we need a better reason than you don't like it before wrecking the rules of test cricket for your tastes.

Maybe the only way to stop Wagner bowling his leg theory stuff is to wide him every time the ball passes outside the leg stump or is perceived to hit a player outside.

You are about two days too late Bobbie.:P

Best MCG pitch I have seen for ages.  Yesterday it was in favor of the ball. Smithy said he "never felt in". Today it looked a good cricket wicket. You bowl well you get wickets.. bat well you score runs. They did not bowl all that well.. except Wagner and we did bat well. Looks like a winning score for us.

They were fresh the whole time. So it doesn't matter really. Commentators gave Starc some grief. But he was fast and fierce.

For mine, J Patto's pace dropped real fast. I am worried about his future.  I think he as much talent as anyone. But not if his pace drops this fast, esp after getting KW and only bowling 5 overs.

But that's just me. others may think differently. Pat Cummins was sharp for his speel. Outside off and short as usual. Tidy.

Merry Christmas, everyone! What's the thought on the pitch, so far?

Ta.

What about the Aussie pace attack's discipline?