Just for record - Arzani was injured again from Feb til May this year which kept him sidelined at AGF. But you’re right - he is lacking experience either way and needs go to lower league just to get regular game time. AL could be best tbh, as many people on here have always said

we all remember what happened to mooyzil on his return home

it really isn't so bad

Would love to know which Belgian club Atkinson is linked with. Anyone know? 

And you’re trying to argue that the Daniel Arzani is an example of why a footballer shouldn’t leave too early when Arzani is irrelevant to that argument. He did his ACL. Nothing to do with leaving too early or too late. Poor example.

Granted, I don’t think that pre-ACL, his very very brief stint with Celtic can be painted as a success. But not a failure. Personally, I’d sooner he’d gone to Germany. But thr ACL was just bad luck.

Arzani probably said - I can become a world class attacking footballer. I can play it safe in the a poor quality league with no P/R and a short season. Meanwhile, the other guys born in ‘99 will be playing lots of football each week at the highest level. Or I can move into a higher quality competition.

So, no thanks, I don’t want to be yet another mediocre footballer from Australia. I want to be a world-beater. I’m going to do what other world-beaters do and move to Europe to compete at the highest level. That’s where the Mbappés and Haalands are improving their football.. For some reason or other, they haven’t bothered with the A-League

Yeah, Aussies can  aspire fo play in the Chinese league. 

Which part? Did Kewell, Cahill, Viduka, Neill, Moore, Grella, Bresciano leave Australian professional football after the age of 21?


We've only had a handful of players do well in a top league. Full stop.

And virtually all of those players have left before the age of 21. Certainly the best of those players. The only real exceptions are Brett Emerton who left at 21 and  Mark Schwarzer who was a goalkeeper, not an outfield player. There haven't been players who've stayed in the NSL/A-League for ages.

You're going about this the wrong way, imo. Everyone acknowledges this:

% of those who leave young and succeed < % of those who leave and don't succeed

No-one disputes that. The point is this:

However slim, there is a chance of becoming a world-class footballer by playing professional football in Europe from a young age. By contrast, there have been very few, if any, world-class footballers who spent the formative part of their professional careers playing football in Australia.

Therefore, the only chance is to leave early and do what the other world-class footballers have done (i.e. play professional football in Europe/South America from as young as possible)

Really well compared to whom/what? On a personal level, Aaron Mooy did really well. If I were him, I'd be very proud, I think.

Compared to other footballers in the Premier League, however, he did quite well. He was hardly one of the standouts in the entire league.


Except for those players who left for Europe without having played a single professional game in Australia. E.g. Harry Kewell, Tim Cahill, Lucas Neill, Craig Moore.


All right. Let's look at a couple of non-Aussie/non-European examples.

Christian Pulisic  and Giovanni Reyna, both play for the USMNT, went to Borussia Dortmund at the age of 16. Were those kamikaze moves?

???? Eh? 

Where did I say that?!

The point i was making was that he made a decent start but then had a horrific injury... so how on earth can you say he left too early?! Horrible call.

Of course we'll never truly know but I genuinely believe being a celtic supporter and following him at the time, that he would have kicked if not for the injury. 

@Quickflick. You been banging on this same argument for years now. I don’t think anyone will argue more games at a higher level from a younger age will improve development. The issue is you continually ignore is other variables as to why Aussie kids moving to Europe at 16 isn’t always the best idea. The vast majority who leave at such a young age come home without developing into the world beater you’re saying they should be. Naming 10/15 who succeeded years ago further demonstrates they’re the exception not the rule. 

and maybe it also shows where we're still really at no ?
We can go on fapping over our current young prospects in our bubble BUT getting more game time here at home isn't going to turn them into overall rounded promising players like Haalands etc as quickflick mentions.
Its a very valid point.
Why they are coming home is because they haven't cut it period - we got to accpet this, not good enough.
With the amount of scots around today, who don't have to travel but get/vids/you tube etc at this stage no one is calling that much from abroad/Euro for our guys at present.
Like the saying here banged on about growing our game, fish where the fish are, well same goes for improving your craft on the pitch, getting to Europe young.
Look at those U23 spanish players, Pedri for eg, played em off the park in Euro, 18yrs old !
We have no one near his level imo.
and we have some here saying better to stay in the AL till you've matured more, missed the boat by then for there is countless more Pedris already there and ahead in the cue compared to ours.
Mooy/Arzani's were the exceptions to the rule, 2, over how many years.

I think most players we have seen go overseas have gone backwards in their development if they don't get game time. Even those that get time really don't seem to be improving faster than when they stay at home unless they are playing at the very top. That is true even of rogic and oar who made it into their starting line ups quickly. I'm not even convinced that mooy was better for the national team once he was playing week in week out in the epl compared to playing at home. That's not to mention the dozens of youngsters who leave too early and get their career ruined. Our national team is often made up of the second best groups of our youngsters, because the best are frequently wasted on bad career moves. Europe only seems to help your development once this league gets too easy. If a player has good enough advice to correctly tell them that the domestic game is already too easy, then it certainly helps. But that advice better be correct, and most of the time it isn't

We ultimately have lost dozens of our best players over the last few years to rot on the pine in europe. Sure if we keep doing this for the next twenty years, maybe we find that one player who makes it (who probably would have made it just as well anyway through a couple of seasons in the a league). But in that time we have lost hundreds of our best youth, weakening our domestic league and weakening our national league. In the end, yeah we get that one superstar sometime in the next twenty years but the rest of the national team is that much weaker. 

I completely disagree here, our players are good enough here but the numbers they getting in terms of match minutes is well short of the Europeans are achieving. 

Also how many players in recent times have players gone to Europe early on and have made careers of a higher level? Not many in fact our best Socceroos have benefited from playing in the aleague for a few seasons.

The players are good enough but the environment lets them down.

If anything the players level has surprised me they can compete with these countries but clearly we can improve the envionment.

The inertia players have to leave for Europe very early on and expect them to make it is becoming a myth as the chances of making it at a higher level is so small.

Our last 6 players that have made it at a high level are mabil, rogic, ryan, kruse, mooy, jedi all played a lot here before leaving and, more importantly, dominated the league. Leckie left after few games but also dominated. I also wonder if he would have been a bit better if he played an extra season here. He also went to buli 2, which is barely better than the a league, and spent quite a bit of time there before making the jump

Barca, were a long way off having our guys playing a 35/40+ game season. Its cyrstal ball stuff.
So we got to deal with the now and next 5yrs say, not much is going to change as much as I wish it would.
The players who do have a go OS at least are in Clubs who do play alot more games, they obviously are not able to force their way IN getting more game time.
Thats how it is mate.
IF they had the real potential the Club would perservere with them.
Our best recent Roos are doing ok but its a long way yet to prove it, the next WC Qualis will give us more indication and hope, lets see where we end up when the crunch comes of having to actually make it through.

Until our league grows were battling along, so our guys stay here longer, get into their early 20's to mid before going out into the big wide world of football.
I hope you guys plan/vision works.

It isn't a myth elsewhere in the football world.

Even the guys overseas we dont have many are in the top 4 leagues in Europe, alot of them are playing in mid tier leagues so even that plan isnt good enough for us if competing at a World Cup level.

I look at our neighbours in Asia such as Japan, they dont have a problem developing players for the bigger leagues in Europe and the thing is they are not leaving at a very young age either.

Simply enough we have to improve our standards and there is no excuses to do that, as we have seen here we have a decent little league but clearly we have can improve it more and more but its also not bad for us enough and sometimes we dont give it credit for what its done for the players and coaches too.

I think we forget to add some perspective here too, more of than half of our best players have played in the aleague and for more than 1 season too.

What was the last time we had an outlier to this? Adjin Hrustic but thats just one player alot of these guys that leave for Europe early most of them don't reach a higher level from their youth days and thats a fact.

Also for further context Pedri has played the most match minutes more than any other 18 year old in the world with over 5000 match minutes...

and there's the bar today though he's special......huge one I know.
What an amazing feat by him.

Yep JLeague is a great mention, 20team comp with P/R.
We've known for a long time they stepped up long long ago.

grazorblade, good the mention of those 6.
Jedi/Ryan the standouts for me.
Leckie and domination ? what you mean.
Also he would have prospered more being there than being here imo.

Look I get it where you guys are coming from, you need to take into account also some people adjust and prosper away some do not.
Its not all about its better staying here longer, for some it may set them back, others may improve.
Its not black and white.

leckie played 35 games before leaving, which is a bit skinny but he was impressive in the acl and got 7 goals in 25 games that season, which is dominant for a winger

You’ll have to point out what those other variables and why the affect Aussies but not non-Aussies.


It isn’t always the best idea. It depends on the individual. However, for those young footballers who are exceptionally talented, it’s virtually the only chance they have of becoming world-class.

Developing in a very average league, while other people the same age are playing at the highest level, won’t help.


Of course. It’s elite sport. Very few make it to the high levels in Europe (be they from Australia, from Europe or from anywhere else).

The point is that the only ones who have made it did leave young.

And that point has been necessary to repeat for years and years. That situation hasn’t changed at all.

Outlier? Barely any Aussies make it at all. And virtually none have stayed in Australia past the age of 21.

To make it at all is to be an outlier. And the majority of those outliers left rather young.

Sorry but my world standards none of Mabil, Rogic, Ryan, Kruse, Mooy, Jedi or Leckie have done all that much. It’s setting the bar rather low. Mabil is a work in progress. Ryan is more of a mainstay but, again, a goalkeeper.

As it stands, none of them are standouts by world standards. If you ask anybody who knows world football well but isn’t Australian, they’re not likely to cite any of those guys as highly successful footballers who are significant in European competition.

As I say, dime-a-dozen in other countries.

Maybe I’m excessively critical but I think we set the bar very low.

Ah ok thanks for clarifying.
Yes he was running in good form early back then, I think also he had great grounding playing in the VPL prior, 37 games for a return of 15goals.
Why did it dry up over the years lol, just saying, I know changes of coaching/tactics where playing in the Bundas over the years.....but a shame it effected his finishing.

I'm with quickflick in the big picture.
Yep it is so damn hard breaking through, a given, thousands don't make it even from countries with good grounding/foundations and reputations.
So we throw up our arms and say staying here is for the better outcome, ah ok.
Having the luxury being in a good Club with lots of top competition pushing their efforts for eg, Ajax we all know.
VanDeBeek gets signed by United @23.
DeJong @ 22 to Barca
DeLigt @ 20 Juve
I know its not comparing apples with apples but young players like Pedri (you could say he's a spanish outlier might I add @ 18yrs) and the many others its about being in competitive cut throat surroundings, its elite nothing is easy, the ony way to make it is keep trying and trying whilst our systems keep playing catch up.
Europe is the yardstick in the big picture BUT going with Barca mentioning our Asian neigbours, JL/KL should be a good target for our "possibles" getting more competition/experience, especially the JL.
20Club comp,P/R competitive cut throat top to bottom.
Whereas here, our bottom 3 it no matter.
How do ours adjust mentally in the big picture when/if they get to a good league @ 23/25yrs.
Take another season or 2 to adjust.
Some maybe late bloomers, some not, %'s %'s.....

Maybe our Roos we/I too high expectations, maybe our Roos will always be a team that punchs above their weight.

It would be setting the bar much lower to just send our best youth like lemmings to end their career and fill our national team with the next best for the hope of 1 world class player every 30 or so years

Its not black and white, however the PFA and FFA have done studies and those that stay here end up for around 70-100 games end up doing better in Europe than those that leave at a young age. Its not just about talent, its about being away from support networks, learning a new language and culture, proving you deserve an opportunity over a local, etc.

I guess the way to frame should be more like "You are more likely to do well in Europe if you stay here and develop". Obviously this means the clubs need to blood players younger so they can develop earlier and we need to get players playing a minimum of 35 games a season. But most decent talent we have had have gone over too young and struggled and ended up returning home. That is a fact, so we do need to try a different strategy. The other side of this is if more talent stayed a little longer, the league gets stronger, which improves the talent behind them and has a flow on effect. 

yep and a better league reduces the need to leave in the first place making a virtuous cycle

Even if that were the case, it’s got nothing to with setting bars (i.e. benchmarks).

You’re looking at Australia as a bubble which is somehow detached from the rest of the world.

Meanwhile, elsewhere the rest of the world doesn’t share your view which is, with all due respect, imo somewhat protectionist and decidedly isolationist.

Other countries look at the world and use global standards as a benchmark. For some reason, in this country there’s a tendency to accept mediocrity as an acceptable benchmark and then to get defensive.

I think to be world class from Oz is.

aged 16/17 starting in a-league - dominating by 3rd season, proper dominating like clearly a step above everyone like mooy was at city.. move to europe at 20 but to decent euro league and actually be playing.

how do you know how I'm looking at it? Let's not engage with mind reading
I'm looking at how to optimize the national team. Wasting our best youth for 1 world class player every 30 years is not a smart strategy. I'm happy for them to go when they dominate domestically

protectionism would mean not letting players go at all. What you are advocating if we make trade analogies would be taking the countries best jewels and dumping on another country's border in the hope they might deem one of the jewels good enough for them every thirty years