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Monoethnic Social Club
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+x+x+x[quote]
This is the funniest post ever. How many NSL clubs can afford to play in the AL? We have been over this time and again in the expansion thread. NSL bitters love the romance of former NSL clubs being involved, they have no concept of reality.
I saw a few calls over the weekend on Sokkah Twitter for Wollongong to be included. They have no money. Western United bid 4 times more than what Wollongong offered.
It is rumoured that only 6 teams (so far) have put in a bid for the NSD. Read my lips: S-I-X. Were is the shortfall coming from?
With all due respect I think you really misunderstand how football works. And I will use SMFC as the example, as people like to lay boots in so much. Currently SMFC plays in NPL1 in Victoria. A competition for all intent purposes is a suburban league. In any suburban competition there are ceilings, in terms of investment and interest. A fact of life, though Preston Lions is bucking the trend with weekly crowds of 2,000-3,000 in NPL3. NPL also has further restrictions, having read the Licence agreements, the premise is that NPL Clubs should be developing "talent". Now that AL teams have Academies with preferential treatment that objective is not such a priority. And Clubs have quickly gone back to what there purpose is, to serve their members ambitions, and in most cases that means either winning trophies or not getting relegated. SMFC just announced a yearly $200K sponsorship with CF Capital, a sponsorship even AL Teams would be interested in. And they have a sponsorship portfolio of over $1Mill. And all this in a Suburban competition. What is evidenced in Football, here and the world over, is the higher division a club plays in the more revenues come into that club, be it Sponsors, Memberships, Attendances, Media Revenues and exposure, gate sales, corporate hospitality, signage, pourage and catering. To say any Club currently in NPL will look the same at a financial level, if they went to a NSD or AL next year is at the very least facicious. Also lacking in the nuances of the Club Licensing system, that requires the prerequisite infrastructure and capital guarantees to participate at a higher division. In my view the most important and key issue or the game here is the growing of more and better Clubs. What is better for this nations football, 12 pro clubs or 24 or 36? Expansion of the AL to 16 teams isn't going to do it. And how do you help more Clubs to get to higher levels? One way is a National platform, which we have in the AL, a NSD would be another way to increase the quality of Clubs, a domestic transfer system that rewards clubs for developing players, promotion and relegation through the tiers based on Club Licensing encouraging more investment wether AL NSD NPL1 to NPL3 and below. This how we get there and this will take time. Your point seems to be if only SMFC and Preston were in the top tier, the money and support would just roll in. Fact is both SMFC and Preston *were* in the top tier national league. That league went broke. Since 2005 over $1 billion dollars in TV deals and sponsorships has been spent on 10 or so pro clubs. How much do you think would be required for 24 or 36 of them? Where will that come from.? I think Arthur is trying to say that SMFC and Preston have some money and support rolling in DESPITE not being in the top tier. This is obviously at a level matching the reality of where both clubs find themselves in terms of national exposure and value for the sponsorship revenue stream sought after. Any opportunity to better improve the clubs exposure would lead to more opportunity both financial and developmental (forgive my presumption if I'm wrong Arthur) To put it another way - Even if, say Preston, only had 300 spectators and a revenue income of 100K in 2018 that is 300 more spectators and 100k more than what WU had at the same time.. Give them a license in 2018 and do you not think they would have grown at much greater pace? Top points if you can reply without mentioning a now dead NSL or the word "effnik"
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Arthur
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+xYour point seems to be if only SMFC and Preston were in the top tier, the money and support would just roll in. Fact is both SMFC and Preston *were* in the top tier national league. That league went broke. Since 2005 over $1 billion dollars in TV deals and sponsorships has been spent on 10 or so pro clubs. How much do you think would be required for 24 or 36 of them? Where will that come from.? I'm confused now. So after $1Billion has gone into the AL we still have franchises that can't meet their commitments without benefactors covering the operating losses? Is that your point? Or is tit that the bar is set to high in terms of Licence commitments that its too expensive a model?
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Arthur
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+xBefore promotion is introduced I can see a canberra franchise, a 2nd bris team, maybe a hobart or geelong team (should move wu there) could plausably do significantly better than the nsl average. Probably we should reach 16 teams through some combinations of expansion and promotion before p/r is introduced Why? Why not put them in a NSD where the cost is lower and they can build their Club towards AL expansion?
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Arthur
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+xI probably mentioned this in another thread but playing in suitably sized stadiums is the key for these franchises/clubs to not only survive but also be successful. The problem is that the infrastructure is not great for all sports in Oz, too many play in big stadiums to fit the needs of the commercialisation of modern sports but less emphasis of the needs of the communities and face bases that to watch. The NRL and some extent the AFL did this 30 years ago and we saw alot of passion and colour when they play in suitable sized stadiums, for me this is the future of the a-league and probably the future when the NSD comes up and running. Prefer 10K stadiums with an good atmosphere than 30K with little atmosphere plus will help get the costs down too. Agree, the PFA created a document that supported appropriate sized stadiums, the APL. Along with Scudamore making the same proposition to the AL owners after they paid for his advice.
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Arthur
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+xNot bitter, just pragmatic. Of course, I hope the NSD gets up and we have pro/rel before the decade is out. But I just can’t see the NSD being made up of NPL and former NSL teams. Like it or not, we need a mix of NPL And franchise teams. I can’t see the NSD having 10-12 teams without it. The ACT needs to be a franchise team. Tassie needs to be a franchise team. North Queensland will likely see the return of a resurrected franchise team. Those advocating for Auckland… we’ll need another franchise team (unless Auckland City put their hand up). You can also look at Perth and the Gold Coast. Are there any NPL teams putting their hand up? Why?
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LFC.
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+x+xFTB, it seems your bitter coming from the opposite perspective..... Rumours about 6 , one poster mentioned this some weeks ago and its probably around other SM. Nothing is out officially so no one can claim anything hot of the press that is legit but you bring it up, a rumour your doing the same and belittling the level below. Some of those Clubs may still be holding back to commit being the NSD has dragged the chain to date for nothing concrete has yet to be brought out but proposals/discussions. Who in their right mind commits without a proposal officially set that it seems still up in the air. TBH you should be in hope this gets up and running for the bigger picture of our game, that whats its more about. Not bitter, just pragmatic. Of course, I hope the NSD gets up and we have pro/rel before the decade is out. But I just can’t see the NSD being made up of NPL and former NSL teams. Like it or not, we need a mix of NPL And franchise teams. I can’t see the NSD having 10-12 teams without it. The ACT needs to be a franchise team. Tassie needs to be a franchise team. North Queensland will likely see the return of a resurrected franchise team. Those advocating for Auckland… we’ll need another franchise team (unless Auckland City put their hand up). You can also look at Perth and the Gold Coast. Are there any NPL teams putting their hand up? pramatic maybe just doesn't come across that way you should be more specific in that case....... Forget having Franchise's in the NSD in the short term - that just doesn't mix and brings in more politics/discussion/rulings its bogged down enough as it is at this stage, maybe through relegation way down the track but years off even getting to that kind of scenario. We still don't know how many Clubs will form the NSD for starters, 10 Club comp who knows to date. I'd sooner be positive than negative. ACT/Gong/NQ and or GC need to be local NPL Clubs if at all, any of the support base will come from the locals and surrounds NOT from a Franchise one for in general the proof is in the pudding. I'm sorry at the NSD infancy stage imo for Tas and to a degree Perth - don't know how the funds support them being involved unless there is some FA $$$'s supporting the logistics.
Love Football
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someguyjc
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Franchises are only realistically an option if a someone (or a group) is willing to stump up the cash to start one (and continue to fund one). I'm not so sure that is the case when it comes to the NSD. Especially an NSD that may or may not have a definitive path into the A-League. The risk is too high and the reward is too low. The NPL clubs are already established. They already either have venue agreements in place or own their own venue. They have branding already done. They have established connections with sponsors and partners. They already have some players that would step right into an NSD squad. They have corporate structures and staff. They have fanbases to build upon. A franchise would be doing all that from scratch. It's not a small task. Established clubs also have a fallback if things don't work out in the NSD. The established clubs already have a business model based on competing in the NPL and below. Competing in the NSD would just be a cherry on top. If the NSD doesn't work out for them for any reason they can fallback to that NPL business model without too many losses. A new franchise would have a model based on competing in the NSD. Falling back to the NPL or out of existence would be far bigger risk for a new franchise. Then you have the issues of fanbases. There is no guarantee they will show up. We've seen it a bunch of times now in the AL. Make a few mistakes early on and you're dead in the water.
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Arthur
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+xFranchises are only realistically an option if a someone (or a group) is willing to stump up the cash to start one (and continue to fund one). I'm not so sure that is the case when it comes to the NSD. Especially an NSD that may or may not have a definitive path into the A-League. The risk is too high and the reward is too low. The NPL clubs are already established. They already either have venue agreements in place or own their own venue. They have branding already done. They have established connections with sponsors and partners. They already have some players that would step right into an NSD squad. They have corporate structures and staff. They have fanbases to build upon. A franchise would be doing all that from scratch. It's not a small task. Established clubs also have a fallback if things don't work out in the NSD. The established clubs already have a business model based on competing in the NPL and below. Competing in the NSD would just be a cherry on top. If the NSD doesn't work out for them for any reason they can fallback to that NPL business model without too many losses. A new franchise would have a model based on competing in the NSD. Falling back to the NPL or out of existence would be far bigger risk for a new franchise. Then you have the issues of fanbases. There is no guarantee they will show up. We've seen it a bunch of times now in the AL. Make a few mistakes early on and you're dead in the water. Logical, pragmatic and correct
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Feed_The_Brox
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because there is no bloody money. Geez. +xpramatic maybe just doesn't come across that way you should be more specific in that case....... Forget having Franchise's in the NSD in the short term - that just doesn't mix and brings in more politics/discussion/rulings its bogged down enough as it is at this stage, maybe through relegation way down the track but years off even getting to that kind of scenario. We still don't know how many Clubs will form the NSD for starters, 10 Club comp who knows to date. I don’t know if i can more specific than I already have. Money Money Money. NPL clubs lack money. There is only a very few select NPL clubs that may be able to afford to play in the NSD. A franchise club with a sugar daddy can. Yes, we don't know how many clubs. But those who think it'll be 14-16 in season 1 is in la-la land. It'll be 12 at best, but probably 8 or 10.
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someguyjc
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+xbecause there is no bloody money. Geez. +xpramatic maybe just doesn't come across that way you should be more specific in that case....... Forget having Franchise's in the NSD in the short term - that just doesn't mix and brings in more politics/discussion/rulings its bogged down enough as it is at this stage, maybe through relegation way down the track but years off even getting to that kind of scenario. We still don't know how many Clubs will form the NSD for starters, 10 Club comp who knows to date. I don’t know if i can more specific than I already have. Money Money Money. NPL clubs lack money. There is only a very few select NPL clubs that may be able to afford to play in the NSD. A franchise club with a sugar daddy can. Yes, we don't know how many clubs. But those who think it'll be 14-16 in season 1 is in la-la land. It'll be 12 at best, but probably 8 or 10. So could an NPL club with a sugar daddy. Every football club is for sale for the right offer. Hypothetically if I were to win powerball this week and if I had my heart set on splashing some cash on an NSD club, I would buy a controlling share of one of the NPL clubs. Far smarter investment than starting from scratch. I agree with you about the number though. 8-10 for sure. 12 at an absolute stretch. No chance of anything above 12 anytime soon.
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Arthur
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+x
because there is no bloody money. Geez.
We shall see, won't we. By the way why don't you tell us who the six clubs are that can afford to be in NSD?
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petszk
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+x+xSth Melbourne in AL would provide more than just 3,000 paying spectators for home games at least We did it 20 years ago with rabidly hostile media coverage, no buy in from "mainstream" Australia and the stigma of soccer being a game for "sheilas, wogs and pooftas" I dont see why we couldn't now? We "almost' get that in the NPL, surely the national exposure of NSD or Aleague would bring more fans? Certainly more than the current "Champs" bring to the table.... For what it's worth... I'd love to see SMFC back in the top level of football in Australia.
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Feed_The_Brox
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+xSo could an NPL club with a sugar daddy. Every football club is for sale for the right offer. Hypothetically if I were to win powerball this week and if I had my heart set on splashing some cash on an NSD club, I would buy a controlling share of one of the NPL clubs. Far smarter investment than starting from scratch. I agree with you about the number though. 8-10 for sure. 12 at an absolute stretch. No chance of anything above 12 anytime soon. fair enough. Hope it happens.
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Monoethnic Social Club
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+x+xbecause there is no bloody money. Geez. +xpramatic maybe just doesn't come across that way you should be more specific in that case....... Forget having Franchise's in the NSD in the short term - that just doesn't mix and brings in more politics/discussion/rulings its bogged down enough as it is at this stage, maybe through relegation way down the track but years off even getting to that kind of scenario. We still don't know how many Clubs will form the NSD for starters, 10 Club comp who knows to date. I don’t know if i can more specific than I already have. Money Money Money. NPL clubs lack money. There is only a very few select NPL clubs that may be able to afford to play in the NSD. A franchise club with a sugar daddy can. Yes, we don't know how many clubs. But those who think it'll be 14-16 in season 1 is in la-la land. It'll be 12 at best, but probably 8 or 10. So could an NPL club with a sugar daddy. Every football club is for sale for the right offer. Hypothetically if I were to win powerball this week and if I had my heart set on splashing some cash on an NSD club, I would buy a controlling share of one of the NPL clubs. Far smarter investment than starting from scratch. I agree with you about the number though. 8-10 for sure. 12 at an absolute stretch. No chance of anything above 12 anytime soon. We really DO think alike ...... already pegged 60mill of my winnings on Thursday to signing Mbappe :) No controlling share though .... generous donation, the club belongs to EVERYONE......
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Monoethnic Social Club
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+x+x+xSth Melbourne in AL would provide more than just 3,000 paying spectators for home games at least We did it 20 years ago with rabidly hostile media coverage, no buy in from "mainstream" Australia and the stigma of soccer being a game for "sheilas, wogs and pooftas" I dont see why we couldn't now? We "almost' get that in the NPL, surely the national exposure of NSD or Aleague would bring more fans? Certainly more than the current "Champs" bring to the table.... For what it's worth... I'd love to see SMFC back in the top level of football in Australia. It always IS :) Wherever we play IS the top level .... at least in my world :)
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Enzo Bearzot
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+x+x+x+x[quote]
This is the funniest post ever. How many NSL clubs can afford to play in the AL? We have been over this time and again in the expansion thread. NSL bitters love the romance of former NSL clubs being involved, they have no concept of reality.
I saw a few calls over the weekend on Sokkah Twitter for Wollongong to be included. They have no money. Western United bid 4 times more than what Wollongong offered.
It is rumoured that only 6 teams (so far) have put in a bid for the NSD. Read my lips: S-I-X. Were is the shortfall coming from?
With all due respect I think you really misunderstand how football works. And I will use SMFC as the example, as people like to lay boots in so much. Currently SMFC plays in NPL1 in Victoria. A competition for all intent purposes is a suburban league. In any suburban competition there are ceilings, in terms of investment and interest. A fact of life, though Preston Lions is bucking the trend with weekly crowds of 2,000-3,000 in NPL3. NPL also has further restrictions, having read the Licence agreements, the premise is that NPL Clubs should be developing "talent". Now that AL teams have Academies with preferential treatment that objective is not such a priority. And Clubs have quickly gone back to what there purpose is, to serve their members ambitions, and in most cases that means either winning trophies or not getting relegated. SMFC just announced a yearly $200K sponsorship with CF Capital, a sponsorship even AL Teams would be interested in. And they have a sponsorship portfolio of over $1Mill. And all this in a Suburban competition. What is evidenced in Football, here and the world over, is the higher division a club plays in the more revenues come into that club, be it Sponsors, Memberships, Attendances, Media Revenues and exposure, gate sales, corporate hospitality, signage, pourage and catering. To say any Club currently in NPL will look the same at a financial level, if they went to a NSD or AL next year is at the very least facicious. Also lacking in the nuances of the Club Licensing system, that requires the prerequisite infrastructure and capital guarantees to participate at a higher division. In my view the most important and key issue or the game here is the growing of more and better Clubs. What is better for this nations football, 12 pro clubs or 24 or 36? Expansion of the AL to 16 teams isn't going to do it. And how do you help more Clubs to get to higher levels? One way is a National platform, which we have in the AL, a NSD would be another way to increase the quality of Clubs, a domestic transfer system that rewards clubs for developing players, promotion and relegation through the tiers based on Club Licensing encouraging more investment wether AL NSD NPL1 to NPL3 and below. This how we get there and this will take time. Your point seems to be if only SMFC and Preston were in the top tier, the money and support would just roll in. Fact is both SMFC and Preston *were* in the top tier national league. That league went broke. Since 2005 over $1 billion dollars in TV deals and sponsorships has been spent on 10 or so pro clubs. How much do you think would be required for 24 or 36 of them? Where will that come from.? I think Arthur is trying to say that SMFC and Preston have some money and support rolling in DESPITE not being in the top tier. This is obviously at a level matching the reality of where both clubs find themselves in terms of national exposure and value for the sponsorship revenue stream sought after. Any opportunity to better improve the clubs exposure would lead to more opportunity both financial and developmental (forgive my presumption if I'm wrong Arthur) To put it another way - Even if, say Preston, only had 300 spectators and a revenue income of 100K in 2018 that is 300 more spectators and 100k more than what WU had at the same time.. Give them a license in 2018 and do you not think they would have grown at much greater pace? Top points if you can reply without mentioning a now dead NSL or the word "effnik" History tells us that these clubs had a ceiling of support limited to their small community. History tells us that they couldn't expand beyond those communities when they were in the top flight. There is zero evidence that these clubs support base has broadened to any significant degree. The idea that if these clubs were only given a chance at the big time-again- they would make it big is just wishful thinking.
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Enzo Bearzot
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+x+xYour point seems to be if only SMFC and Preston were in the top tier, the money and support would just roll in. Fact is both SMFC and Preston *were* in the top tier national league. That league went broke. Since 2005 over $1 billion dollars in TV deals and sponsorships has been spent on 10 or so pro clubs. How much do you think would be required for 24 or 36 of them? Where will that come from.? I'm confused now. So after $1Billion has gone into the AL we still have franchises that can't meet their commitments without benefactors covering the operating losses? Is that your point? Or is tit that the bar is set to high in terms of Licence commitments that its too expensive a model? My point is that costs of professional football today is far beyond what the ex-NSL clubs could and would be able to achieve to create that expanded professional competition you were suggesting.
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Muz
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+x+x+x+x+x[quote]
This is the funniest post ever. How many NSL clubs can afford to play in the AL? We have been over this time and again in the expansion thread. NSL bitters love the romance of former NSL clubs being involved, they have no concept of reality.
I saw a few calls over the weekend on Sokkah Twitter for Wollongong to be included. They have no money. Western United bid 4 times more than what Wollongong offered.
It is rumoured that only 6 teams (so far) have put in a bid for the NSD. Read my lips: S-I-X. Were is the shortfall coming from?
With all due respect I think you really misunderstand how football works. And I will use SMFC as the example, as people like to lay boots in so much. Currently SMFC plays in NPL1 in Victoria. A competition for all intent purposes is a suburban league. In any suburban competition there are ceilings, in terms of investment and interest. A fact of life, though Preston Lions is bucking the trend with weekly crowds of 2,000-3,000 in NPL3. NPL also has further restrictions, having read the Licence agreements, the premise is that NPL Clubs should be developing "talent". Now that AL teams have Academies with preferential treatment that objective is not such a priority. And Clubs have quickly gone back to what there purpose is, to serve their members ambitions, and in most cases that means either winning trophies or not getting relegated. SMFC just announced a yearly $200K sponsorship with CF Capital, a sponsorship even AL Teams would be interested in. And they have a sponsorship portfolio of over $1Mill. And all this in a Suburban competition. What is evidenced in Football, here and the world over, is the higher division a club plays in the more revenues come into that club, be it Sponsors, Memberships, Attendances, Media Revenues and exposure, gate sales, corporate hospitality, signage, pourage and catering. To say any Club currently in NPL will look the same at a financial level, if they went to a NSD or AL next year is at the very least facicious. Also lacking in the nuances of the Club Licensing system, that requires the prerequisite infrastructure and capital guarantees to participate at a higher division. In my view the most important and key issue or the game here is the growing of more and better Clubs. What is better for this nations football, 12 pro clubs or 24 or 36? Expansion of the AL to 16 teams isn't going to do it. And how do you help more Clubs to get to higher levels? One way is a National platform, which we have in the AL, a NSD would be another way to increase the quality of Clubs, a domestic transfer system that rewards clubs for developing players, promotion and relegation through the tiers based on Club Licensing encouraging more investment wether AL NSD NPL1 to NPL3 and below. This how we get there and this will take time. Your point seems to be if only SMFC and Preston were in the top tier, the money and support would just roll in. Fact is both SMFC and Preston *were* in the top tier national league. That league went broke. Since 2005 over $1 billion dollars in TV deals and sponsorships has been spent on 10 or so pro clubs. How much do you think would be required for 24 or 36 of them? Where will that come from.? I think Arthur is trying to say that SMFC and Preston have some money and support rolling in DESPITE not being in the top tier. This is obviously at a level matching the reality of where both clubs find themselves in terms of national exposure and value for the sponsorship revenue stream sought after. Any opportunity to better improve the clubs exposure would lead to more opportunity both financial and developmental (forgive my presumption if I'm wrong Arthur) To put it another way - Even if, say Preston, only had 300 spectators and a revenue income of 100K in 2018 that is 300 more spectators and 100k more than what WU had at the same time.. Give them a license in 2018 and do you not think they would have grown at much greater pace? Top points if you can reply without mentioning a now dead NSL or the word "effnik" History tells us that these clubs had a ceiling of support limited to their small community. History tells us that they couldn't expand beyond those communities when they were in the top flight. There is zero evidence that these clubs support base has broadened to any significant degree. The idea that if these clubs were only given a chance at the big time-again- they would make it big is just wishful thinking. Worth a go though.
Member since 2008.
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Footyball
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With pro/rel between the NSD and NPL1, the ethnic based clubs may not al be at the top level, others will though. As long as there is a NSD!
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Melbcityguy
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You guys really need to use a paragraph when you post a long message thanks
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aussie pride
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Macarthur from memory screwed up early with 'business' like decisions.
Own goals with high membership prices, expensive seating and screwing around the bullpen all were PR disasters which impacted their 'first impressions' they were trying to make.
WSW are the template model on how you gather support early, who remembers the packed friendlies in pre season at suburban venues and strong atmosphere which generated strong momentum which carried through with great success in it's early seasons.
Macarthur have a great football venue and are the main tenant, they need to attract fans, build an atmosphere before even thinking about having expensive pricing.
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aussie pride
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WU were always a terrible choice and 99% of Victorians always knew this was going to be a disaster.
There were literally 4 options which could've been far better such as:
Dandenong - even if it was at Casey Fields temporarily they wouldve represented something. The South East of Melbourne is established and is continuing to sprawl.
Gallops comment that the Dandenong bid had no suitable venues was an insult when we've seen WU gypsy their way around the state and burnt all behind them when proved unsuccesful. Tarneit is ah a farm at the time they got issued a license.
South Melbourne - self sustainable, established club with a home base. Athletics track or not, they would've had crowds much larger than WU's and the derbies with MC & MV really would've meant something and generated plenty of interest.
Geelong based side - When WU called Geelong home in season 1 the crowds were almost passable. They seemed to at least represent the region and they got some publicity locally. Then once they started moving games and pissing off the fan base the locals basically gave up on them. Reap what you sow WU.
If a side was set up with 'Geelong' in the name and bedded down at Kardinia, it could've gone ok. Similar to the Mariners in side.
Melbourne Knights would've represented stronger with a purpose built stadium and established fan base. Again WU should've tried harder to stay in Sunshine and at least remotely represent the 'West' that it says it is.
Would love to see the consultants report on how they thought Western Utd was the best bid in Victoria...
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Butler99
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+x+x+x+x+xI'm fine with Macarthur. Western United should never have been allowed in, and South Melbourne was clearly the best bid of the lot at the time. WU just go in on the $$$ paid. I wonder if the worry about South Melbourne getting in, would've been them getting bigger crowds than Melbourne City potentially. Would not have been a good look at all. opposed to almost having no crowds.... WU looks bad and so does the Bulls i feel for the players as they are both filled with some decent players it must be 'disheartening' to have poor support it is why a 'salary cap' league doesnt work, as good players get picked up by big clubs play infront of big crowds and not as good players grind it out to prove they are worth signing at lower clubs. Are you having a dig at the salary cap for players signing for MB and WU? You do realise that WU would be among the highest spenders in the league. And MacArthur not far behind. They also got an exemption of extra 3-400k in first few years in the salary cap. Don't worry. Players are ok playing in front of small crowds. They are getting higher wages than many other clubs are willing to pay them. They are not going to WU because of the salary cap. They are going their because they get paid more. Some ridiculously more. are you saying the salary cap is a good thing if so i dont know how to help you No. You missed my point. You're saying the salary cap has forced players to play for WU. Against their wishes..that they had no other options by to play for a club with minimal fans. But that is false. Players happily chose to go there. Most because they got offered more than anywhere else.
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Flytox
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There has been a lot of comment about the small crowds at the Bulls and Western home games and I agree that they are low but are they low compared to the NSL attendances when the NSL was struggling in its dying years?
Over a 3 year period:-
5 clubs had average crowds less than 3,000.
2 clubs had average crowds in the 3,000 to 4,000 range.
1 club had average crowds in the 4,000 to 5,000 range.
2 clubs had average crowds in the 5,000 to 6,000 range.
1 club had average crowds in the 6,000 to 7,000 range. This is the summation of Adelaide City and Adelaide United and Adelaide United on its own was in excess of 10,000.
1 club had average crowds in excess of 10,000.
The clubs with the highest attendance, Adelaide United and Perth Glory, were accepted into the A-League. Both were broad-based clubs. Of the other clubs only South Melbourne I think would have transitioned easily into the A-League.
The fact that both Western and the Bulls support is equal with the bottom half of the NSL clubs puts their position in context. As start up clubs in growth locations they are doing as well as clubs that had been through the struggles all football clubs go through for 20+ years in the NSL. That they have a lot of work to do to grow their fanbase goes without saying. For the good of football in their locations I hope they succeed.
Looking at those NSL crowds I think that they represent a target for the clubs that get into the NSD. If they meet that level of support I think they will make a positive contribution to football and the development of talented players that is sorely needed.
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df1982
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+x+xNot bitter, just pragmatic. Of course, I hope the NSD gets up and we have pro/rel before the decade is out. But I just can’t see the NSD being made up of NPL and former NSL teams. Like it or not, we need a mix of NPL And franchise teams. I can’t see the NSD having 10-12 teams without it. The ACT needs to be a franchise team. Tassie needs to be a franchise team. North Queensland will likely see the return of a resurrected franchise team. Those advocating for Auckland… we’ll need another franchise team (unless Auckland City put their hand up). You can also look at Perth and the Gold Coast. Are there any NPL teams putting their hand up? Why? I think it's clear that future clubs from Canberra and Tasmania have to be "franchises" (for want of a better word): i.e. new clubs that hope to draw support from the entire football community, like the Jets in Newcastle, Adelaide Utd in Adelaide, etc. At the moment those two cities in particular are essentially excluded from the pyramid, as their NPLs are very low-level and there is no team that could really make the step up, since they wouldn't be able to draw support from the whole state. In other countries this process of smaller cities having one team representing the whole town happened gradually but geography prevented that in these cases, and we don't have the luxury of time any more. Auckland is in the same boat if the A-League wants to add another NZ team. Wollongong and Gold Coast are lucky that they already have teams like this (the Wolves and GCU), enabled by earlier spells in the national league and geographic proximity to state capitals. Townsville and Cairns had the same but they had to bow out due to the travel costs. They and places like Geelong, Ballarat, Bendigo, Albury-Wodonga, even Coffs Harbour deserve a proper place in a national pyramid. The era of starting up brand new professional clubs in the state capitals is probably over, with the possible exception of Penrith in Sydney and Ipswich in Brisbane, but even then the fate of WU and Macarthur would be a chastening one, and they would most likely start at a lower level in the pyramid and try to work their way up if a pathway is open to this.
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df1982
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+x+xI probably mentioned this in another thread but playing in suitably sized stadiums is the key for these franchises/clubs to not only survive but also be successful. The problem is that the infrastructure is not great for all sports in Oz, too many play in big stadiums to fit the needs of the commercialisation of modern sports but less emphasis of the needs of the communities and face bases that to watch. The NRL and some extent the AFL did this 30 years ago and we saw alot of passion and colour when they play in suitable sized stadiums, for me this is the future of the a-league and probably the future when the NSD comes up and running. Prefer 10K stadiums with an good atmosphere than 30K with little atmosphere plus will help get the costs down too. Agree, the PFA created a document that supported appropriate sized stadiums, the APL. Along with Scudamore making the same proposition to the AL owners after they paid for his advice. That's all very well and good, but where these stadiums? Sydney and Brisbane both experimented with suburban grounds and saw their crowds tanking. Both are now either back in their original over-sized stadiums. Governments only seem interested in building multi-purpose behemoths, and clubs here don't have the resources to build their own new grounds, or if they do it's out in the boondocks like WU (and many NSL clubs back in the day). That said, WU, Brisbane, City and Wellington need to build their own appropriately sized grounds at some point. WU already have plans. Redeveloping Perry Park (possibly as part of the Olympics) makes sense for Brisbane, either ground-sharing with the Strikers or letting them move out to a more modest ground. With City you have to hope that the Dandenong plans come through. Phoenix had some plans for Petone Reserve but had too much of a backlash from NIMBYs. They could try to resurrect a similar kind of proposal somewhere else. Once you fix those the other clubs are in tolerable stadium situations (although a boutique stadium for the Jets also wouldn't go astray).
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bettega
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As we continue aligning the A-Leagues (men and women), it follows that Canberra United will have a mens team.
That becomes the obvious 13th team.
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Monoethnic Social Club
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+x+x+x+x+x[quote]
This is the funniest post ever. How many NSL clubs can afford to play in the AL? We have been over this time and again in the expansion thread. NSL bitters love the romance of former NSL clubs being involved, they have no concept of reality.
I saw a few calls over the weekend on Sokkah Twitter for Wollongong to be included. They have no money. Western United bid 4 times more than what Wollongong offered.
It is rumoured that only 6 teams (so far) have put in a bid for the NSD. Read my lips: S-I-X. Were is the shortfall coming from?
With all due respect I think you really misunderstand how football works. And I will use SMFC as the example, as people like to lay boots in so much. Currently SMFC plays in NPL1 in Victoria. A competition for all intent purposes is a suburban league. In any suburban competition there are ceilings, in terms of investment and interest. A fact of life, though Preston Lions is bucking the trend with weekly crowds of 2,000-3,000 in NPL3. NPL also has further restrictions, having read the Licence agreements, the premise is that NPL Clubs should be developing "talent". Now that AL teams have Academies with preferential treatment that objective is not such a priority. And Clubs have quickly gone back to what there purpose is, to serve their members ambitions, and in most cases that means either winning trophies or not getting relegated. SMFC just announced a yearly $200K sponsorship with CF Capital, a sponsorship even AL Teams would be interested in. And they have a sponsorship portfolio of over $1Mill. And all this in a Suburban competition. What is evidenced in Football, here and the world over, is the higher division a club plays in the more revenues come into that club, be it Sponsors, Memberships, Attendances, Media Revenues and exposure, gate sales, corporate hospitality, signage, pourage and catering. To say any Club currently in NPL will look the same at a financial level, if they went to a NSD or AL next year is at the very least facicious. Also lacking in the nuances of the Club Licensing system, that requires the prerequisite infrastructure and capital guarantees to participate at a higher division. In my view the most important and key issue or the game here is the growing of more and better Clubs. What is better for this nations football, 12 pro clubs or 24 or 36? Expansion of the AL to 16 teams isn't going to do it. And how do you help more Clubs to get to higher levels? One way is a National platform, which we have in the AL, a NSD would be another way to increase the quality of Clubs, a domestic transfer system that rewards clubs for developing players, promotion and relegation through the tiers based on Club Licensing encouraging more investment wether AL NSD NPL1 to NPL3 and below. This how we get there and this will take time. Your point seems to be if only SMFC and Preston were in the top tier, the money and support would just roll in. Fact is both SMFC and Preston *were* in the top tier national league. That league went broke. Since 2005 over $1 billion dollars in TV deals and sponsorships has been spent on 10 or so pro clubs. How much do you think would be required for 24 or 36 of them? Where will that come from.? I think Arthur is trying to say that SMFC and Preston have some money and support rolling in DESPITE not being in the top tier. This is obviously at a level matching the reality of where both clubs find themselves in terms of national exposure and value for the sponsorship revenue stream sought after. Any opportunity to better improve the clubs exposure would lead to more opportunity both financial and developmental (forgive my presumption if I'm wrong Arthur) To put it another way - Even if, say Preston, only had 300 spectators and a revenue income of 100K in 2018 that is 300 more spectators and 100k more than what WU had at the same time.. Give them a license in 2018 and do you not think they would have grown at much greater pace? Top points if you can reply without mentioning a now dead NSL or the word "effnik" History tells us that these clubs had a ceiling of support limited to their small community. History tells us that they couldn't expand beyond those communities when they were in the top flight. There is zero evidence that these clubs support base has broadened to any significant degree. The idea that if these clubs were only given a chance at the big time-again- they would make it big is just wishful thinking. You havent been paying attention to them then mate... Yes obviously the core base of a club like Preston (Im using Preston not to keep rattling on about SMFC all the time, not for any other reason) would be built around their long loyal community but did you know they actually have an indigenous players program? Are VERY heavily invested in advertising themselves to the general public in the northern suburbs of Melbourne and have recently won a community services award in their local council for the charity/community engagement work they do.... I would argue they are a more "known football brand" in Coburg, Preston, Northcote, Fairfield areas than anyone other club in Australia..... These are community owned clubs mate, maybe they wont make your so called "big time" but they certainly have an ambition too. Is the fear of the APL that perhaps they are more like to evolve than the franchises? Whats is the stumbling block to letting them form a national comp under the Aleague?
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Monoethnic Social Club
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+xThere has been a lot of comment about the small crowds at the Bulls and Western home games and I agree that they are low but are they low compared to the NSL attendances when the NSL was struggling in its dying years? Over a 3 year period:- 5 clubs had average crowds less than 3,000. 2 clubs had average crowds in the 3,000 to 4,000 range. 1 club had average crowds in the 4,000 to 5,000 range. 2 clubs had average crowds in the 5,000 to 6,000 range. 1 club had average crowds in the 6,000 to 7,000 range. This is the summation of Adelaide City and Adelaide United and Adelaide United on its own was in excess of 10,000. 1 club had average crowds in excess of 10,000. The clubs with the highest attendance, Adelaide United and Perth Glory, were accepted into the A-League. Both were broad-based clubs. Of the other clubs only South Melbourne I think would have transitioned easily into the A-League. The fact that both Western and the Bulls support is equal with the bottom half of the NSL clubs puts their position in context. As start up clubs in growth locations they are doing as well as clubs that had been through the struggles all football clubs go through for 20+ years in the NSL. That they have a lot of work to do to grow their fanbase goes without saying. For the good of football in their locations I hope they succeed. Looking at those NSL crowds I think that they represent a target for the clubs that get into the NSD. If they meet that level of support I think they will make a positive contribution to football and the development of talented players that is sorely needed. Not a fair comparison in my opinion.... WU and MacArthur have the benefit of competing in a pro league with other clubs with vastly larger attendances, in a market place that accepts soccer as an Australian sport and one were their matches get broadcast favourably to potential fans... They should be doing 10 x times better than a failed, shoddy, tinpot league from 20 years ago no? Otherwise what was the point of the great Frank Lowy "cleanisng" of the "effniks"? Nothing?
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patjennings
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+x+x
because there is no bloody money. Geez.
We shall see, won't we. By the way why don't you tell us who the six clubs are that can afford to be in NSD? I've heard 5 from NSW already - so assume there would be quite a few from Vic
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