yeah I think once the 2nd div starts, if any club up the top of the table is getting larger crowds than the lowest attended a league club, there really isn't a reason not to promote them. If there are 16 teams in both comps, there are hopefully enough teams to handle the unique challenges of australia to have p and r

having said that, I'm open to more expansion clubs as I do think there are a few places that can get bigger crowds than the nsl average. There probably aren't any 20k clubs out there but maybe 4 places where 6-8k is possible

I'm no anti pro-rel but I do think if Brisbane, CCM, WU, Macarthur etc were relegated they'd definitely fold. Would make things awkward in the NSD.

To be fair there are probably only 4 potential Vic clubs at this moment in time. SMFC, Knights, Preston and maybe Oakleigh. However only SMFC would be an absolute lock, the others would be in varying degrees of the maybe category. A few years ago, I would have said Team 11 may have thrown their keys in the bowl again, but since CFG have intentions of migrating out east it wouldn't make sense anymore.

between enzo flytox (whatever multi he is) on and on living in the past......
Carrying on about 20yrs ago just doesn't add up period anymore.
NSL had its issues but never let them live it down eh..piss easy target.
Its was always gonna fail the so called big time into the modern era for liitle ol australia was behind the 8ball in any case.
Christ you can't keep beating this old drum of crowds back then to todays world let alone the difference of circumstances, numbers of the past sync with current Bulls/WU.
FFS we have grown a little in general population, general outlook regards to migrants has changed so so much obviously as well, media is at your finger tips, what a load of bollocks.

In todays world what Franchise of any style business (I deal with some Franchise companies HQ and Franchisee's) can afford its own sugar daddy keep putting in to keep their investment alive by continuous DD $'s into their account, unless they from the ME in most case's talking football, hello CFG.
WU IF they survive their consort has to have money on tap to keep burning, we shall see.
The Bulls in such a growth area and a football pool I'll give the benefit of the doubt due to starting up upon covid hitting us BUT they should be double what they have attending right now even at the current low numbers.
Something is very wrong here for no way is wanderers sucking up most of their support, let alone their management blunders ie over priced ticking, going down hard on the limited active support they had, the takeover of NBridge getting into PL1, why hasn't that SW and west region got on board some, forget talking about crowds of 20yrs ago + a non tech time and wog league - the world has moved on 1000mph since - something doesn't add up, who can afford that long for a sound supporter base and ROI, business is business.

In saying the above what damage does a half baked supported Club do to the image of the league in the big picture, to some may say thats the same everywhere of low supported Clubs BUT this is Australia, we're a minnow, fighting against other codes that are way ahead commercial wise, thats what Joe Average sees and pass's judgement.
What about the elephant in the room talking Sydney and WSW, the golden child and people carry on about its template of the past.
Their supporter base numbers are a third to what they once were.
Forgetting the RBB being rubbed out to a degree what of the other fair weathered supporters, seems they only back when winning which is typical Aussie generally as well.

Leave the NSD alone you guys, no one is expecting big numbers, I'm sure the FA and the Clubs aren't going into this half cocked.
Long overdue having something that creates a better pyramid and nuture the game where its needed big time getting out of the dark.

I feel ccm would do ok. The other three are a worry, particularly if BR don't have a smaller stadium to play at. WU and Macarthur aren't as big a loss as the roar since they are getting nsl level crowds in cities with other clubs

Whilst its easy to take pot shots at the Bakarie's for their management of their investment in Brisbane Roar, one of the failures of the FFA was not locating the 11th and 12th teams in Brisbane and Adelaide. Both are crying out for derbies, and would have also spiced up the interests viz Melb/Adelaide and Syd/Bris.

It seems that Adelaide City are a viable entity and likewise in Brisbane we could have had one of Peninsular Power, Brisbane Strikers, or even Gold Coast lining up against the Roar.

kind of says more about how poorly the AL is doing then an argument against Pro/Rel 

CCM would likely not fold. Financial structure is now more spread and football is by far the biggest sport on the Coast these days.  

What makes you suggest one of these clubs could step up that far??
Do you know what sort of that leap is for these clubs??

The only potentially viable option in QLD and SA that I can see if Lions FC. But they were initial owners of Roar licence and stepped away quick smart. Obviously the finances required to run an A-league club was too much of a burden even for them. Let alone any of the other clubs you mentioned. 

What about the strikers out of curiosity?

I don't know the QLD market intimately, but Lions FC seem to be the benchmark by a mile up there. 
So if they think  running a pro team is not financially viable then no other club has any chance at all. 

Qld'ers can clarify. 

My understanding is Lions FC won't be entering the NSD initially.
As are many Clubs.

What I have understood from my dealings with Clubs is that even though they won't enter initially they will implement strategies to get there eventually.

And this is very important in terms of building football infrastructure.

We are talking investment in match day facilities, training facilities, coaches, academies, admin, sponsorships, bringing on new investors, growing the support base due to new ambitions.

So the effect of the NSD is not just an end in itself, its also about providing the Clubs below an incentive, one that  I believe many are planning for.

I agree.

The main reason is if P/R happened today and relegation was to a State NPL competition they would fold ASAP.

When you look into this there are reasons.

For example;
* when the AL model was created P/R was never considered a possibility.
* Licence entry fees to AL implied a payment for jumping the queue
* Licence entry fees to AL implied permanency or in perpetuity, AL organisations are not structurally prepared for relegation
* Below the AL rules and regulations of MF's and FA were intended to weaken the Club Landscape
* Below AL the FA and MF's have failed or are incompatent or incapable, in commecialise their competitions
* the last 17 years FA and MF's have siloed what a club is and what they can do, AL professional centre piece, NPL develop talent, Community recreational no room for growth, or allowance for innovation

Hence the need to have a NSD, and have P/R right through from lowest State League team to NSD straight away.
Hence the need for a NSD to start a low bar initially (noting that the football landscape has stagnated at State Level) and grow the NSD and the Leagues below it.

At the same time there comes a point where we have to say to the AL organisations your ROI (Return On Investment) has gone on long enough. You've had your opportunities enough is enough the game needs more strong clubs.
The decision to bring on P/R to the AL needs a grace period whether that's 5 years or 10 years, once the NSD starts a date should be declared.

It gives the AL organistations the opportunity to prepare themselves and the Clubs below to prepare themselves also.

Allow investors to buy an NPL Club or NSD Club or a State League Club and work their way up.

your experience and intel from NPL and AL understanding is very valuable and good reading Arthur.
The above is spot on - just a shame its going to take another decade or more (IF it ever gets off the ground) and this not started 15yrs back or more.
The game has been in a mosh pit for too long covered up by a shop front.
What a crying shame.

Where is the money going to come from to fund an additional 8-14 teams? 
Most A-league and NPL Clubs struggling to stay a float as it is.
Will the NPL clubs attract fans which don't support A-league clubs, or will they just take away from current A-league clubs?

I think you'll find the teams that enter already exist

Jesus mate we've been discussing this for 5 years.

Yeah haha I haven't seen any solutions/answers. 

All fantasy stuff really.

If there's no money, it won't happen.

If there's money it will.

YOU IDIOTS ARE ASKING THE WRONG QUESTION! IT'S NOT WHICH NPL CLUBS CAN AFFORD IT. IT'S HOW MUCH IS THE FA WILLING TO BUY THE EXISTING IP FOR?

Why would FA have to buy the IP?  I would hope that in this more enlightened age the clubs will retain their IP.

FA is pretty flush at the moment: the broadcast deal with Paramount, new sponsorships, WC qualification and WWC hosting have delivered them a tidy surplus. If their mission is developing the game in Australia, then there is hardly a better project out there to support this than an NSD. All the other structures in the game are in place (grassroots, state-level pyramids, pro league, national teams), even if man of them need improvement. The NSD is the missing link. JJ seems to finally be the one to recognise this.

And all they really need to do is cover interstate travel costs. All other costs for a semi-pro national tier would be in line with what the top NPL clubs are already paying at the moment anyway.

WU and Macarthur maybe, unless their owners are willing to continue losing money on the teams. But if the Brisbane Strikers and Wollongong Wolves survived the implosion of the NSL and being demoted to state leagues with no evident pathway for ever returning to the top flight, then the Roar and the Mariners would likely manage with an orderly relegation to an NSD that provides the opportunity for a subsequent promotion back up. Both have now been around for longer than the Strikers were in 2004, and nearly as long as Wollongong, and have an entrenched fanbase that has followed them throughout this period (although the Bakries have done as much as they can to alienate this fanbase).

The Mariners could play at Pluim Park and the Roar at Perry Park to manage costs. The latter would probably even be better for fans than cavernous Suncorp or remote Dolphins.

if that happens, so be it. the cream rises  to the top

Both Power and Strikers have been talked about as interested in the NSD. Whether that results in them taking the next step we will have to wait and see. Another possibility that has been mentioned is Sunshine Coast as its got quite a lot of growth (both population and developments) going on there and there is a small stadium already at Maroochydore. Whilst the first two would be stand alone, the Coast would need a sugar hit from someone.

What are you smoking?  The EPL exists because of "sugar daddies".  Your own club in the EPL is owned by several of them.  Hello  Fenway Sports Group.  Without their half a billion USD, Liverpool was fucked..  Community clubs can survive small time.  The big time requires dollars.  Lots of them.  From people with deep pockets. Not by selling cavapi and beers.

Face it.  Sugar daddies gave you 2005 WC qualifiers, gave you the  2006 and 2010 WC's where we actually won games, and he give you 60,000 to watch two "plastic" franchise.  teams.  They gave your Liverpool an EPL title.

Now the failed NSL clubs want in to be a part of something they could never have achieved because no-one wanted to invest in them. And tell us this it will be different today? how?

What works for football Australia is 1. marquee players- (strikers or attacking mids need only apply) 2. Active support 3. Successful socceroos.  4.  That's it.

And with it commercial death.  and with that, the best players leave and its a downward spiral.

oh what an attack - you thought about it for a while, the modern day euro/latino/chinese/merican sugar daddys are in P/R comps.
Open comps nothing wrong there Plus they have full house's near on every single game, your point is moot and your smoking something..
05/06/10 came from the backbone broke/failed nsl, guess thats a failure by you.

Your other points or questions are still living in the past, move on.
A NSD first and foremost for the ol Clubs, whatever develops from that in the long term we shall see, sink or swim.

This has to be one off, if not the dumbest posts i've seen on this forum, and there is a fair few of them. 

The EPL exists cause of the TV deal and global audience, not because of the sugar daddies. The sugar daddies only really hit the EPL in the last 15 or so years, these EPL & English clubs have been around since the 1800's lol.  Liverpool's most successful period was in the 70s without all that.

Sugar daddies made Australia qualify for WC's? haha. 

if you think marquee players is what makes australian football tick and is the most important, than you are what's wrong with football in this country. 

what a stupid post lol. 

Say the final one and I can fill in my "APL hate any competitor to its closed shop model" bingo card ... you know, the one about "effniks"......