With our thread on Aussies Abroad, there is an inherent  assumption that many leagues overseas are better for Socceroos to play in than the ALM.

There are some extremely knowledgeable posters on this forum who know a lot about where our Aus players play overseas football. I'm not one of them.

What has changed in this World Cup, is that with us reaching the last 16, no longer can accusations be levelled at the Socceroos, or Asia in general, for qualifying in a weak Confederation. Hence, denigrating our quality. Pertinently, we were only 5th ranked in Asia in the WCQ campaign.

Yet since we've qualified as 5th ranked Asian team, beating the UAE, we've:

 *Beaten the 5th ranked South American team in WCQs - Peru.

*We've beaten one of only 5 African nations to qualify for the WC - Tunisia.

*We've beaten the 10th ranked team in the world in the WC, Denmark, where quite a number of our players play football. Looking up Denmark, the three teams  our players have played for are the three best teams in Denmark, with one of them having significant Champ League/Europa league pedigree - FC Copenhagen.

*We've also pushed Argentina to the limit in the round fof 16.

The current problem is that many overseas leagues where our players play club football are usually playing with and against domestic players in those leagues who have no experience in international football. Or a failed experience in international football.

Many mid ranked UEFA leagues have teams who regularly  don't qualify for Euro Champs and World Cups. These are leagues that our club players play in. They are also often coached by coaches  who have no direct experience of international football and international football trends, depending on their  domestic football federations.

A few leagues where it might be better for the development of international players outside the European big four, who our players are rarely good  enough for,  supposedly, could be Croatia, Japan, South Korea, Mexico, the USA.

 I'm surmising they redress the phenomenon that is our major problem in Aus - the short 26 games home and  away season.   In ALM there are a few  Football Aus Cup games, and, at least  ACL games for one/ two clubs. Which is close to ideal if  a club is in the ACL.

With Croatia as a league, it is dominated by two big clubs, with European Champ League and Europa League pedigree - Dynamo Zagreb and Hadjuk Split. Croatia national team  comprises players  generally  from the UEFA big four, or they play for  Split and Zagreb. 

Of course, Netherlands, Belgium and Portugal are  desirable locations, if players can  gain a contract. These are constant solid performers in World Cups and Euro Champs. The also have  2-3 big clubs, who provide a lot of national team players, along with domestic players who play in the big four UEFA leagues.

I have not watched much English Championship  League  for a while, but there were  some awful hoofball, second ball teams in that league who played  football dross a few years back.  Which is useless to develop international players.

At the same time when I was watching the Eng Championship, there were an increasing number of teams who like  Coach Benitez, had teams playing quality possession football. The Championship is the 6th richest league in the world, but tactically, and in terms of style of football, it was generally  useless for developing  players who reach the last 16 teams of the  World  Cups.

Australia has achieved a lot  reaching the last 16 in Qatar.

Playing against  teams like Argentina, France and even Denmark in World Cups, and reaching the last 16 is a far higher standard that most players club  scenario  play against - even in the 6 big World Powerhouse leagues.

One issue is  that UEFA football prepares  players to play well in Europe. Many   UEFA national teams, highly ranked is world rankings,  choke playing in Asia, the Mid East,  Africa, or Asia. Despite our modest playing resources, Aus are able to produce a battle hardened football team used to playing  in countries with unfamiliar   cultural phenomena.

Maybe it is time to rethink where our Aussie players play overseas  club football to be the best players they can be at international level?

Is it time to give Scotland, Austria, Norway, Austria, Israel, Greece, Turkey,  and lately, Italy, plus any national second divisions,  the flick?

I've always maintained that the best league for players to play in are determined by a number of factors (not in order of precedence):
1. The heritage of the player (ie ethnic background. This is seriously underrated in my opinion)
2. The position of the player (some leagues are better for honing defensive rigour whilst others suite more technical players)
3. What is the player's work permit status (this is applicable mostly to the UK but some other countries too)
4. Probability of getting significant game time or at least support by the club via loan deal 

I've read about  this issue in so many  biographies with Euroroo and Socceroo careers.

Many of our Socceroos only managed to get contracts in Europe because of having tenuous  relationships to a distant relative in  a particular country.

This is a really good point.

However, whereas it was  considered  to be a terrific education to play in  Italy as a defensive player, their national paradigm can be considered problematic at this point in time.   They  have failed to qualify  for the last two World Cups.

Their average current  Italian domestic   players one would assume to  be inferior to what the Italians used to be - relative to the rest  of the national teams in UEFA.  

Switzerland topped their UEFA WCQing group for Qatar, and  Italy were knocked out by North Macedonia, who failed to qualify themselves.

Italy are the current Euro champions.

I knew that, but  Italy failing to qualify  for the last  last two World Cups, is astonishing. 

 It is perplexing that a team can be best in Europe, but two years prior to and two years after that victory,  Italy can't beat modest UEFA teams to qualify for  the biggest  tournament.

Italy's status as a big five UEFA league can be considered only in monetary terms does it qualify. Moreover, things change in football very quickly. England, Spain, Germany and France, the current UEFA big four leagues, in terms of the domestic national teams playing standards at international level,  qualified effortlessly for Qatar in comparison to Italy.

In terms of national teams in UEFA - Belgium, Portugal, Croatia, Netherlands and Switzerland - have been more consistent than  Italy since 2017. That is despite those countries having domestic leagues that are not considered to be the UEFA big leagues.  

Not to mention Decentric's new obsession with Italy/Serie A bashing is misguided at best.

Even if the national team managed to lose a game (with 37 shots to 1) and miss the world cup, the league itself still had a huge representation at the world cup.

I posted the stats here a few weeks ago of which leagues are most represented at world cups in the last 20 years and even with Italy missing two world cups they were third. Would have been second had they made it.

Yeah he's a strange one. In another post he advocated he would pick players like Duke, Irvine, Goodwin and Leckie over Viduka, Culina, Cahill, Bresciano, Emerton and Grella.  I was really shocked to read that, but then when I read that he was a member of the Labor party and union movement it all made sense.

If I  left  Cahill out it was playing as an attacking mid, but  Bresciano would get a starting  position in the current team. 

Go back and have look at the footage in 2006.

You might not  realise  it, but this Socceroo  team in Qatar, has been the best  performed we've  ever had, results wise, at a World Cup. They are our greatest ever Socceroos. They accrued 6 points,  two wins, in the group stage.

The only two teams who beat the Socceroos  are playing in the  World Cup Final.

The point is  Italy haven't made the last two World Cups, not just Qatar. Switzerland topped their group.  Italy then lost to North Macedonia in a play  off.

 I've been a huge admirer of  ltalian football. I love the tactics of the  national  team.

I'm not Italy bashing. If Spain, England,  Germany, France or Netherlands ( who missed out on qualifying for   WC 2018),  failed to miss out on one, let alone two successive World Cups, it would be considered a crisis.

When Netherlands failed to qualify, the KNVB sent Ed Ten Kate into  France, Germany, and Belgium, to see what they were doing that  the Dutch weren't .  They revamped coaching practices  immediately in the Netherlands.

I think you're conflating the performance of a National Team with its domestic league. 

France has a striker and its right-back playing in Serie A. Deschamps became a successful national team manager only after conquering the Serie A with Juve. 

Half of Argentina's front 1/3rd play in the Serie A and Parades whose performed well for Argentina this WC also plays there. 

You see what I did there? 

We can spin narratives any way we like. 

The fact is, we should want BOTH a strong domestic competition AND aspirations for our best graduates to move to one of the Big 5 leagues. 

There was a bit of tongue in cheek about  Italy, because axiomatically the  national team, The Azzurri, is considered to be a  world powerhouse. Also, the Serie A league is considered to be one of the big five in Europe.

From the data that Davide provided, and I found the extra numbers  to 10,  Serie A has provided 68 players for the Qatar WC, despite not having their national team playing in Qatar. If one added at least another  20 odd players from The Azzurri, Serie A would have more players than any other league outside the EPL, playing in Qatar. 

Until I saw that data, I thought maybe Serie A and The Azzuri, could both be declining relative to other leagues and football nations. The Azzurri could be, but Serie A probably isn't. They still recruit many foreign imports of high quality to Serie A. Many have played in Qatar for other countries outside Italy.

The best thing we can do is develop and retain players in the A league. That way the choice for any rising young players will be A league > EPL, Bundesliga etc rather than > Pohang Steelers or St Pauli junior academy, where they are unlikely to improve much. Croatia, Greece, Denmark, etc probably provide only modest, if any, improvement over the A league.

You could possibly even add shop window.

No expert here - But it appears DECENT players can become GOOD players if they have a club coach willing to give them opportunities (mostly game time) to develop. Standards are higher in top Euro leagues but much harder to get consistent game time in? Spfl has been great for Rowles, Devlin, Baccus etc development but not so much Cummings who was bench warming at Dundee United before thriving in AL and getting minutes in a WCup. 
Harry Souttar has thrived playing in ECL of course.

A league doing ok too producing likes of Goodwin, Tilio, Kuol etc 

Don’t think it’s that league specific anymore with rest of world catching up to Euro leagues a bit recently 

I think Belgium would be a good starting point for Australian players wanting to establish a career in Europe, and in the past many Australian players had great careers in Belgium.

The Belgium league is a good league of a high standard.

Other good leagues for Aussies to play in would be obviously the EPL, La Liga, France, Germany and The Netherlands.

Agreed. I'd add Portugal to that list and maybe Turkey, although warnings have been issued in the past about clubs there not honouring contracts. 

Behich had a successful career in Turkey (122 games for Bursaspor) as did Ersan Gulum (84 games fro Besiktas). 

I think their heritage helped them navigate the tricky cultural clash/bureaucracy over there.

The upcoming NSD could be the new go to league, pro/rel with the NPL, it'll be massive.

I don't want to sour the boys achievement but this has been a different world cup, lot of big teams bowed out early. I think we could give morocco some trouble if we sat back and made them come to us.

Meaning im not sure what you can grasp in terms of data this WC has had the most "tournament" football where anything can happen over that 90 mins.

In terms of league, I think language plays a big part... somewhere that English is quite common Belgium, Netherlands, Scotland, Championship, some German clubs, but also the guys with euro backgrounds going to countries they know like Croatia/Serbia/Turkey etc. I think going to Italy or Spain would be tough if you dont know the language.

I think you made some very good points highlighted.
How could you even think to consider power shifts are occoring, certain leagues are on the spiral when
A WC during the normal Euro etc season.
Just 2 odd weeks from Club stoppage head to a WC.
Normal fixtures pre WC we're condensed.
WC in Qatar of all places.

Plus one thing that is so obvious - you can group countless best players from many top leagues isn't the recipe for success.
Its nothing new of some big ones dropping off but this WC more than ever before it seems.
Also most if not all the top players don't play in their local leagues so thats not a reflection on the local league barring the exceptions ala Saudi's for eg and the likes.

As for what is the best league for promising Roos to play in ?
Well that all comes down to their talent and who's calling - the bar is set based on your talent, oh I'll go to Belguim ? or Portugal one that I think is a rippa nursing pool BUT the Club has to want you in the first place.
So its up to the player who has the "it" factor a Club wants - Volpato for eg, take the politics out of it regards us etc but thats the bar right now, be it SerieA isn't a top league to D2 due to them not making the WC x times is bollocks to me, he's playing in a comp way above any of our current Roos are in thats for sure !

The thing I find most interesting about your thoughts D2, is that you have written 735 words but not used the word "milieu" at all.

The Qatari league might be a good option, it produced 3-4 times the amount of players to the World Cup then that of the A-League 🤔😜

And Qatar had an even a greater number of times than Scottish nationals at the World Cup!

Qatar didn’t make it out of their group like Roos did - wouldn’t have made it to Qatar without Scottish players Boyle and Souttar - Souttar was brilliant for Australia - probably the best Roos player in WCUP 👏

I don't like our players going to Portugal or Greece as they seem to go missing and are hard to track. Th EFL provides plenty of games and has smaller benches.

The holy trinity is still there. Switzerland is a good place to be. 

It's really not.. 
Bundi 2 (and 1), Belgian and Swiss leagues have fallen away a lot since we made that. Only really the Dutch league has come on since then. At that time I think it was around the 10th best league now is ranked 6th. Leagues such as the Danish, Norwegian, Scottish and especially the Austrian league have jumped up in that time. 

Isn't that down to the league's performance in European competition? While an indicator of sorts, Turkey had jumped 8 spots in a year down too good European results from part of their league. Austrian league is basically anchored by Salzburg. 

The Dutch league no doubt has their big guns but I find the range of that league akin to English Super rugby league where teams are smashing others every week.

Thankfully we've seen that playing regularly matters although I do find the majority of some of those leagues pretty dire at times.

I mentioned the Swiss league predominantly as it's a popular shopping window for German clubs. The Croatia path is popular for Italy but if your name doesn't end in 'ic' I doubt they'd be interested. 

They are the markets Arnie said the ALeague compares with btw. I would of said the Epl being a wannabe Euro snob.

I'm basing these comments off the  UEFA Coefficient league rankings btw as well as ClubELO.

Scotland has risen a lot in the last 5-7 years, so too Austria and netherlands.  I stand corrected about the swiss and belgian leagues though they are still quite high after looking at coefficients again now. Scotland are actually 9th!! No doubt helped by rangers Europa league run last season

Interesting?

I'd like more Australian players to play in Holland.  High quality league, 34 game season, 18 teams and we share a footballing 'philosophy' of sorts.   Better than playing in Scotland.

If we play our cards right, we can become the "Croatia, Serbia, Portugal" of Asia. Rekindling our youth prospects and setting up as a "selling league". That is the kind of international prestige we can build on.

No other code in Australia can make insane revenue from player transfers. We have to capitalise on this unique situation to compete and I think MLS is learning this too. I don't care where kids go because we should be able to build the culture to be trailblazing mercenaries that succeed no matter where we play... like many south americans, africans and eastern european players do. 

We gotta make of what we have here absolutely sublime because not many countries can offer the lifestyle factor that we are so acclimatised to. I have seen too many friends try and chase the dream abroad and come back with a tail between their legs because of multiple factors and end up fizzling out. 

TL;DR - Promote a positive environment and attitude HERE for going abroad for youth but also increase our reputation (connecting NPL and adding NSD will help) so our prospects dont have to go to the Moldovan 3rd division for a last ditch effort chasing the dream.

well said TheDjentleman agreed.

also after the results of this WC, Arnie should be on the phone to guys like Chipperfield, Circati, Volpato and Robertson and show them how the aussies boys are being treated atm and ask if they want to be gods here or average players for a euro team.

does australia need more feeder leagues than just the SPL?

I still think The Netherlands is the almighty pinnacle transition league for our boys to see if you're gonna cut it with Europe's top dogs. 

At this current time, we have fallen out of favour from that market and we have dropped down a tier. I just saw a kid get transferred to the Faroe Islands from Perth RedStar (formerly ECU Joondalup). Good luck to him but damn we can't catch the eyes like we did in the past anymore...

I still remember when Oar, Sarota and Zullo went to Utrecht like it was yesterday and ever since then despite like De Silva and a few others (best of luck to Rawlins), the Dutch league has not been easily approachable for our prospects. Just gotta keep working hard proving our worth again.

As this is our best World Cup result, it surely has to be Scotland.  The younger they go there the better too.

I know we had a 'good world cup' but this post 'reeks' of blind bias - we have won 3 games in the world cup since joining Asia, drawn 2 and lost 10...... 

I mean Mitch Ditch Duke plays in the J2 League..... settle down now. 

Now as for the rest of you question i got nothing against players playing in 2nd tier divisions like the Championship, 2. Bundesliga etc as most of the top 5 leagues have a better 2nd division then most top division. - in Europe and the world ie the Championship is probably better then the Eredivisie... 

Now - were this post needs clarity is players should be aiming for leagues better then the AL - i would argue Turkish Super Liga are a lot better then the AL but the 4 nations i highlighted you could argue if they are not any better then the AL (however a few big clubs might be an exception) 

I dont think the SPL is much 'better' then the AL however Rangers and Celtic are fairly big clubs both have regular UCL/ECL football and the money is significantly better then the shit show that the AL pays so it could be seen as a gateway for players to Europe - as Scotland has a 'similar' standard of living/Culture to Australia ie English speaking etc 

Players will head to where the $$$ is we need to break this 'mentality' players need to go to Europe to get better and change it to players will go to Europe to star at a good level. 

Until Top 5 leagues are directly signing players from the AL (and the wider part Asia) the focus should be solely on how to 'up' standards to the level in which a clubs like Manchester United, Juventus etc turn around and say this 'young Australia player is gunning it in the AL and ACL lets sign him and give him a shot' 

Standards have 'come a long way' but we still have loads of players heading over to Europe and sitting on the bench - although we can moan they aren't given a chance the fact is the players aren't good enough to break into the 1st team at a decent level. - until that happens consistently nothing will meaningfully change. 

Take away the rose tinted glasses and it does bring the performances in to respective. 

The only 2 teams that beat Australia are now in WCUP final 😉

Yep, and there is really no shame to losing to those teams (performance wise I cannae comment as I didn't watched any of the matches) as both Argentina and France a fine teams. Argentina was my pick at the beginning of the Tournament, but either of the teams could win the whole thing.

My comment about Davstar's was he brought in some perspective, nothing more, nothing less.

Side Note... Is it just me, or do things feel kind of weird that we are both being civilised towards one another (and have for a wee while)??🤔😄

Not even the one at 9pm? Not even a mini-match?
Aha that's almost impressive!

If I lived in Scotland and (I assume) moved my entire life there, I'm pretty sure I'd have watched ONE of their games at a world cup.

Yeah, I've not watched any of the matches period. I've checked the results, but that's it, I haven't seen any of it.

A Celtic player was playing for Roos - and played well - so you missed out not watching 🙁
but yep I’m trying to be less of a dick on forum these days (but doesn’t always happen 😆)

Quite an achievement!

A point I'm making, is that  some of those UEFA  leagues where we are pleased our players play club football, don't even make World Cups or Euro Champs, or rarely qualify for them.

So despite us having a moderate  record at World Cups, we are becoming a  battle hardened, respected international team by teams who play against us.

Argentina's Messi, their coach and  keeper, said we were the toughest team they had played, and that we were  a quality international football team in the Argentinian English language media - although they had a tougher quarter final against the Dutch.

Looking at Mexico, Japan, South Korea and the USA, apart from Japan, most of their players played domestic club football.  And  of the South Koreans who played abroad, most played in the J League.

The question has to be asked, are the mid-ranking European leagues where our  Euroroos play, and whose  national teams rarely qualify  for Euro Championships and World Cups, better than both the two big North American leagues and two successful  East Asian leagues?  The four leagues I've mooted are regular qualifiers for  World Cups and their Continental championships.

Mitch Duke has scored a superb headed goal at the World Cup, despite playing in J2. 

Even  Saudi A, who beat Argentina  in Qatar, and outplayed the Socceroos in WCQs, have all their players playing  domestically. The Saudi league may be superior to the A L. Is it a better option than the mid ranked European leagues?

And before he says the last 20 years isn't a valid unit of time, let's look at 2022 alone.
Serie A had the 4th most WITHOUT Italy being there.

Add 20-26 serie a players onto this list if they did make it and see what happens too

Premier League	England	136
La Liga	Spain	83
Bundesliga	Germany	75
Serie A	Italy	68

I'm not biased.

Thanks  for posting this, Davide.

It is very, very useful data. For  Italy not to qualify for Qatar, yet for Serie A to have the 4th highest number of players playing in Qatar, is salutary and very impressive.

It also completely refutes any of my previous views (with a bit of tongue in my cheek) about  Italy being a less worthwhile destination, relative to what it was,  for Aussies.

It must be very frustrating for  Italy - Coverciano and Italian fans -  to see so many Serie A imports playing in the World Cup.

Deleted.

To  augment this table.

French Ligue  54
MLS ( USA) 35
Saudi Pro League 33
Qatar Stars League 33
English Championship 26
Liga MX (Mexico ?) 23

It is easily the big UEFA five leagues that provide most players to the WC.

I thought the Brazilian and Argentinian Leagues might  have more players?  Have not checked, but I thought a few more Ecuadorean and Uruguayan players might  play in them, as well as a few domestic players playing for the two South American powerhouses in Qatar.

I also thought the Dutch and Portuguese leagues would have provided more players for the Qatar WC too?

If you're happy with being a middling football nation, then yeh, Scotland's great.

Scotland is mid AF

But that's ok because we are mid AF

Hey Decentric, does the fact that morocco and croatia made the semi mean that their leagues are better then england and spain? Germany couldnt even get out of the group but Ghana did maybe we should send players to Ghana instead of la liga.

Duurrrrr 

This is a wind up!

Of  course they aren't.  Croatia in particular, who are frequently  performing well in senior international football, are doing something right though.

I have read they have a very good football academy at Dynamo Zagreb. 

Portugal is the best stepping stone and relatively easy for visas for non euro heritage nationals.
All the big clubs keep tabs on Portuguese football.

I know Portugal is a good destination, but how seriously would they  look at Aussie players? Portugal has quite a number of very technically adept players. 

I suppose finishing in the last 16 in Qatar might have raised the status of Aussie players - a bit.  Hopefully, Aussie mental strength, attitude, tactical acumen, communication on the ground skills, and football conditioning might help, given the technical chasm between most Aussie and Portuguese players.

I think Portuguese is one of the harder languages to learn too. Italian, Spanish and French are easier. It would be terrific for Aussies to play against clubs  like Benfica, Sporting Lisbon, Porto, Braga and Boavista. The first three clubs feature in big European comps and often do quite well.

Portugal also has a climate where it is easy to produce good pitches in winter, particularly in the south.  They are comfortable conditions for players too.

English is the language of football even on continental Europe