just for course of conversation mentioning Sydney and neutrals/supporters attending a GF.
TBH me as an example being a football supporter, unless I had nothing on I agree would have NO interest to attend a Final if my fav Club wasn't playing.
I'm sure I wouldn't be in the minority no matter the State.
I'd have interest checking live scores but couldn't give a toss being there unless I had someone provide me a freebie or some friends haggle say come along.
So for eg say the GF was held in Melb and the teams competing were BR/Jets - how many melbites (barring those BR/Jets supporters living there) really would attend for the sake of it ?
Maybe a small % ?
Re air travel or driving, who would bother no matter where if your team isn't in the game ?
Would be a very devoted football neutral (if there is one or hundreds who doesn't have a fav Club) or other Club supporter go to the expense to watch opposing Clubs.
Again would be small % ???? no ?

F T B, you make some very good points in posts I appreciate your train of thought regards the GF outcome and attitude towards your club But for one, the Finals.
OK its a good event/day But no its not about the euro snob but its about the games DNA from way back and to date around the rest of the world.
Finals, A sporting tradition here due to the hybrid galic football roots and NRL hybrid game of aru supported by those who are afl/nrl supporters and then football supporters.
That many varied posters here are from > Vics/SA WA.
Someone will jump on saying the NSL also introduced it back in 77 - well ofcourse they did what choice have you in this mixed up outpost - a little history here re NSL >" The competition at this stage was a simple first past the post. A post season finals series was played during this era but was considered more of an exhibition series rather than a legitimate game to decide the national champion"
The Finals is another battle and should never have devalued the Prem winner like the afl/nrl's do because its who's tradition ? yer those other codes that some have grown up with.
Nah not with ya for I have NO interest in afl and very limited of nrl having grown up in Sydney.
The Prem winner should be way up in lights and showing to those other codes but who cares, the King is the overall season's best full stop and the Finals winner is the token winner of 2/3 games no more no less.

Don't forget that CCM v NJFC drew almost 37000 to a grand final in Sydney in season 3. Nothing is impossible.

Ideally it would be all about finishing first but with no relegation and the ACL being a bit of a joke with no money in it, what are the teams playing for once they cant finish top? I mean if there were no finals this year, the season is pretty much already done as City are miles out in front. Would teams just play the kids  and try and sell off any players they can to save money before next season?

Then we don't even have an even home and away draw so the team that finishes top may not even be the best performed team. The A-League is a mile off what it needs to become to get more football fans interested. 

AL 7,500 average compared to NPL average? It's worse than skewed.

you know what, you sling the same shit to counter MSC.
7500 is nothing to boast about compared to the NPL that has worked on fumes for so long.
Its still going for the better of the game and countless people who support it watching their kids even if they don't attend PL1 games for without them the Clubs would be up the creek due what happenned then where would we be.
The AL thrives getting kids from the NPL Clubs let alone some coachs, they can't produce them enough themselves.
If, just IF we had a proper top league that worked with the below and we did introduce the juices of P/R over those 17yrs let alone started 10/5yrs ago then maybe some die hards who don't attend AL for whatever reasons may feel inclined to start going to top flight games that had some bearing on results and the excitiement of relegtions etc....
There's a reason why many NPL families and supporters don't attend AL, and they are a major core of football supporter base left behind.
You might even gain a small % of the euro snobs who normally only come out for those exhibition games for the stads are full for those then they are gone till next time.
I've tried and just can't get enough buzz from it, its a mucked up lopsided football comp wiht most with nothing to lose many can't relate to, just as the post above from banzai, you can sugar coat it all you want, quote 7500 but its choking - 7500 div x 12 = 625 in todays market and the money invested puff the chest out compared to the NPL yer right.

Interesting comments from Muscat that he and his team try to play entertaining football and take their responsibility to the game seriously. Do any A League clubs have that ethos?

No one is boasting about 7,500 however a code can't survive with hundred's (as with the NPL) as 2nd tier attendances either. Football as a whole is up against it. The answer is not as simplistic as you make out. It is difficult and no-one has a clear solution, but romanticizing is not the way forward.

Lowy had his dream and worked for a little while commercially with a half baked model if it wasn't for the money it wouldn't have got off the ground but its died a slow burn running on fumes as well.
What it showed that you build it they will come, well more so the bandwaggoners but you need them as well.
Whats hard is the layers and people talking and not doing - like he did took his dummy and started his own revolution.
You have a weak leader everything is - difficult and no clear solutions, clears the decks make the solutions, bangs heads this is the path we're going down with or without you.
People are waiting for a vibrant balanced H/A top flight competition with Clubs involved they can relate to and yep some newbies.
Like you quoted about a full P/R yep not in our lifetime, ALM also won't be the comp this country needs in our lifetime as well.

Using the clubs that might get into the NST competition the average attendance of those clubs over the last 3 seasons of the NSL was just over 3,000 per game.  That was when the NSL was not performing so it is a reasonable comparison with the A-League now.

Can't disagree the ALM needs improvement. To be honest I also wish we had a complete P&R system from top to toe, like prior to the NSL as I mentioned, but maintaining all the good aspects of the A-League. Don't know if that's even possible. The most realistic scenario I can currently see is an improved ALM with a NST and limited P&R with certain criterias being one part of it.

Last NSL season vs the worst ALM season of all time in comparison = ALM 250% better attended.

 

Why is the NSL season in 2004 relevant to the conversation? The median house price in Melbourne was under $300k in 2004 and the population was also 2 million less than today....
Stop living in the past Paulie.... 19 years of franchsing to get to  first division games STILL getting less than 2k people to some games is major failure whichever way you slice it.

Whatever happened to the "football but not as you now it" garbage you lot where promised back in 2005?

The thread is diminishing Aleague attendances and your counter is "but it's better than NSL" FFS who cares?

Also don't forget the 2 Melbourne teams played off in a grand final at AAMI park in front of 10,000 empty seats. 

That's was embarassing and costly to the league. 
A GF in Sydney for the next 3 years is guaranteed money for the league, and ultimately the club's. 

The GF home team gets a big chunk of the ticket sale money. Hosting a home GF interstate almost guarantees that chunk will be much much smaller. 56k+ attended the Perth GF at Optus stadium. There is no way they would get that same level of ticket sales in Sydney, especially if the away team is also from interstate. Then there is the added money they get from match day merch sales, events, etc. Non-NSW clubs lose money in this deal. 

that was 15 years ago. maybe re-read the title of the thread. 


Some people (especially Sydneysiders) are pushing the crazy narrative of "Well last year’s GF didn't sell out, so we may as well have it in Sydney to get a few sponsorship dollars."

This emphasises the exact opposite argument for me. If we can’t sell out a GF coz the host team isn’t big enough to sell it out, then it proves the AL is not big enough (and not ready) to host the GF in a designated/neutral city with thousands of fans ready and willing to travel. 

We are not the AFL where members of competing clubs get 17,000 tix each and the rest go to AFL/MCC members and corporates… and not 1 ticket ever goes on sale to the public. We are a league trying to grow and get more fans on board. The Sydney GF decision will/is having the opposite affect by encouraging people to walk away from the game due to disillusionment.

As for 22,000 in last year’s GF being "embarrassing…" it will be more embarrassing if its City v Adelaide in front of 8,000 at Allianz (and half of those are theatre going neutrals due to boycotts).

When did they change the arrangement for splitting the GF gate revenue?  Under the FFA the whole of the gate from the finals series went to the FFA.

I could be completely wrong, but I vaguely remember hearing an interview (with O'Rourke I think) where he mentioned that was one of the things the APL were doing differently. Originally there was meant to be prize money for the Premiers/Champions but that never happened and I think this was a way to reward the clubs.

Thanks.  I wonder if the home club has to pay for the venue hire etc out of the gate revenue then.

Anything involving Western United has to be discounted. 

ALM getting good average attendance depends on Sydney, Wanderers, Victory and Brisbane getting good home crowds.  Anybody else getting good home crowds is a bonus.

Sydney has been drawing good crowds despite not playing well up until recently.  Wanderers has been sitting near the top but not really playing well and their non derby crowds haven't gone up much from the covid years where their fans supported them quite well.  Victory understandably has a low average of 12,000 at the moment which makes a big dent in the ALM average when compared to a more normal year.  Brisbane, what can you say?  Gone are the days of great football and excited crowds but unfortunately the owners hang around like a bad smell.  With 3 of the big four underperforming by significant numbers it is not surprising that the average attendance at the moment is 7,400.

Looking at the 4 biggest drawing clubs this season, which includes Adelaide instead of Brisbane, their combined average attendance is around 13,000 while the remaining 8 clubs combined average 5,300 a game.

So why the need for "regional" represention then?? If metrics are the be all and end all why not just do away with the other franchises and set up a few more in Sydney and Melbourne?

There's over a dozen posts that mentioned the NSL before I ever did. Season 2004 is relevant because someone else raised it and I commented on it. 

You are indeed bitter and a lying one at that.

Totally incorrect
Finals are wholly and solely owned and run by the league. 
Clubs may have opportunities to sell merch and corporate boxes only. 

Ticket sales go back to the APL as it did to FFA previously.
This has not changed. 
There is no distribution to the finalists from finals income. 

The APL suffered losses on last year GF. Not the club's.  
The income guaranteed from NSW govt plus any further gate takings will ensure the GF always makes a serious profit. 

I'm definitely not a Sydneysider but I'm ok with the decision and let's see how it goes over the 3 years. 
If it works, great. If not, then we go back to what we did before. 
Time will tell. 

Yes. 
You're completely wrong. It may have been discussed, but it hasn't happened. 

Meanwhile during home/away season the Apl are losing $ thousands (probably $millions by end of season?!) from poor attendance numbers due to the same sydney gf decision… the irony 😆 really was the last nail in the coffin for many AL supporters and the poor attendance numbers since decision is proof.

City and Adelaide GF please 🙏 

will be interesting how many supporters don’t renew club memberships again next season

Perhaps an initial decline. 
Bit not as dramatic for most clubs. Apart from victory perhaps. 
Adelaide back to normal. 
Perth are selling their ground out. Albeit small. 
Brisbane up and down. Always like that at Redcliffe. Poor performances too. 
Wellington. No change really. 
WU and Mac same poor crowds. 
SFC - may have been poor because of performance. 
WSW - not the same since Parra days.
MC - always ordinary. 

Let's see what the derby is like. 
The major incident last derby doing more damage than the GF decision perhaps. 

Early to say the GF decision has had a lasting impact. 

Pitch invasion was fueled by anger about gf decision 

Incorrect. 
Flares were fueled by GF decision. Perhaps. 
(There have always been flares at MV games, esp derbies)

Glover throwing flare into crowd instigated the pitch invasion.  

No it was 100% moron powered.