From a couple of PMs I will differentiate some KNVB training ground methodology from the FFE thread.


KNVB stands for- Kingdom of the Netherlands Voetbal association.



Edited by Decentric: 1/6/2011 03:20:45 PM

In KNVB trainin there is a TIC model.

T =Technique
I = Insight (game intelligence)\
C = Communication

TIC is applied to every age group.

From ages of 5-10, Technique acquisition is considered paramount. Insight and Communication are secondary, barely touched on up to 10.


This is supposedly achieved through 4v4 SSGs and specific technique instruction.

Why 4v4 SSGs? KNVB claim that players get a lot of touches with 4v4. At the same time they gain a sense of width and depth with a diamond shaped 1-2-1 formation in the scenario.

IN former FFA training, before Baan and Berger rewrote the FFA curriculum, everything was supposed to be taught in a game context. The problem was that faulty technique can't be rectified if all instruction is done exclusively in match scenarios. The Barca Academy drills reinforce this point.

Insight is emphasised more as players start 7v7 and 11 v 11 in Holland.


Rob Baan deviates from standard KNVB methodology. He claims he is more eclectic and kids in Holland are over coached.

He is keener on the Brazilian based model for kids up to age 12.

A guy I know is a Vikings futsal coach. We'll call him coach P. He was sent to Brazil for training.

P said futsal is the only formal form of competition football played for kids aged 5-12. He also said 11 v 11 for outdoor football starts at age 12-13 in Brazil.

There is some consideration for this proposal in KNVB circles.

I certainly like it.

Playing all futsal and football in 4v4 SSGs, with goalies or without, all the way up to age 12 in a 1-2-1 diamond formation, is ideal.

For the 4v4 SSG model, show players a 2 metres x 2 metres grid.

Demonstrate a 4v4 SSG using cones.

Set out a diamond shape using using the same coloured cones, eg. white. This can be labelled a 1-2-1. It also incorporates the width and depth which was an integral component of KNVB.

Have the players sitting around the 2m x 2m grid it with some at the back kneeling.

Explain that when a team has the ball they must open passing lanes for other players to pass to.

Explain when they don't have the ball they must close down the passing lanes of the other team. They also need the first defender pressurising the player with the the ball. Initially this is a quick movement, slowing down at the last instant.

The second and third defenders should be two covering the two flankers in the diamond shape.


!_____________________________________________!

..............................X


.....X ........................................... ... ....X



............................X

!______________________________________________!

The solid lines are two sides of the 2m x 2m grid.

The Xs are the players in the diamond shape of 1-2-1.

There is one forward, two flankers and one back.

One can add goals to each end.

The demonstration grid is 2 metres by 2 metres.

This helps players understand the role.

Even get players to stand in the 2m x 2m grid on top of the cones in the diamond formation to demonstrate 1-2-1.

Then get the same players to stand in a stationary position in the SSG grid in the same diamond 1-2-1 formation.

Then play this formation in a 4 v 4 SSG in a 10m x 10 m grid, 15m x 15m grid, 20m x 20 m grid, depending on age.

This 1-2-1 diamond can be extrapolated to 11 v 11 using the variations of the 4-3-3. It is often useful to use 7 v 7 as a precursor to the 11v11.

In the pre Baan/Berger epoch, FFA curriculum was really, really nebulous with this type of explicit instruction. There is probably still some carry over of this from even our top FFA Australian coaches.

your missing the point of whole part whole methodology.
here is my take, you have identified in a game that the players are unable to beat the oppo in 1 v 1 situations.
Training session starts with a ball per player warm up, the warm up incudes getting the players to perform step overs, scissors etc. We then move to a 1 v 1 game situation, pitch 30 x 20 with a goal at each end, split players up into 2 groups, give a number to each player . Ask what the players coud do in a 1 v 1 situation to beat the oppo, move onto the 1 v 1 numbers game related (ie opposed practice) , players behind goal line, coach calls number and feeds ball in from half way. Progress the numbers game to 2 players called, they now have a decision to pass shot or dribble. Move onto normal game with all players on , extra goal for performing 1 v1 move in the coaches opinion the right area , right time, normal goals count as well. Finsh with free play game.

I'll elaborate on this later, Dirk.



What you have proposed probably has too many players waiting around watching other players inactively. You have too many inactive players wasting valuable time on the training track.

This is probably an archetypal FFA pre Berger/Baan Australian drill.

Edited by Decentric: 23/4/2011 03:44:44 PM

Edited by Decentric: 18/2/2013 11:18:56 PM

10 players or less one pitch, 12 players 2 pitches of 6 ,

All sessions are imperfect, some more than others


one could say that by doing a majority isolated technique session is a waste of players time as that is something they could do at home, if you have the players then play a game


Edited by dirkvanadidas: 23/4/2011 02:48:53 PM

Looks like I have time after all.

Lets look at your hypothetical scenario in a KNVB match context of the four stage training module.

The match identified main problem was that the team were unable to dribble past opponents in the game.

Four stage module.

1. Reinforce individual problem identified in a match and work on corrective technical exercises to overcome weakness.
2. 4v4
3. 7v7.
4. 11v11

Was the problem dribbling in tight spaces with lateral techniques, or more dribbling in open spaces like wings?




Next try some 4v4 games in small grids.

Instead of prescribing minimum number of passes for scoring, decree that players in a four person team must beat at least one opposition player before a team can score.
Goals are scored by dribbling over any line in a square, maybe even putting the sole of the foot on the ball to score a goal as a player takes it over the line.
4v4 in this SSG dribbling game provides some width and depth.

With the team's dribbling weakness it may not be as important to go to the 7v7 and 11 v 11 progressions.












Edited by Decentric: 23/4/2011 10:51:31 PM

Edited by Decentric: 18/2/2013 11:21:26 PM

I intend to show variations of the 4-3-3 over time in the next week. One forumite , who did the FFA Senior Licence claimed it was essentially an attacking formation. I can also be used defensively too, with a number of positional adjustments. I'll demonstrate it with markers over the next few weeks.

One can have the flat midfield 4-3-3 as Barcelona did in 1996.

One can have the current preferred Dutch model with two defensive screeners in a midfield triangle. This safeguards against the modern phenomenon of effective accelerated attacks. This was manifest in the last European championships.

To make it more defensive again, the 4-2-3-1 can be utilised by moving the wingers further back. This can also present as a 3-3-3-1 by pushing a full back up to attack. It can be also changed to the defensive Christmas tree formation of a 4-3-2-1 by changing a midfielder from the attacking midfield line to the defensive midfield line.

To make it more attacking one can use the midfield triangle with one screener and two attacking midfielder scenario.

The midfield triangle with one screener can be converted to a 4-5-1 by pushing the two wingers further back in a line with the two attacking midfielders.

This attacking midfield triangle formation can also be adjusted by having a back four with a 3:1 system.

The back four can also manifest as a diamond. This can also look like a 3-4-3 in attack and a 3-4-2 -1 in defence.

There is also a cross over to the 4-4-2 diamond, or 4-3-1-2, which a few Dutch trained coaches like Baan, Arnold and occasionally Verbeek, eclectics, use the 4-4-2 diamond shaped midfield. The attacking three revert, with the central striker playing deeper and two forwards playing narrower.

So the 4-3-3 is a flexible system, offensively and defensively, even though any team under pressure can lose their shape.


Edited by Decentric: 7/5/2011 11:55:14 AM

IMO at ages 10 and up
The 433 should be played as 2 attacking mids and wing backs.
The FFA suggests playing with 2 defensive mids
I think my region already struggles in attacking prowess

Just dusted off my calculator.

The net result is:

Seven of your (11) ten year olds should be groomed as defenders?

That'll get the kids flocking to sockah. :lol:

This woud never have happened under past SA coaching philosophies.

Hi Judy Free, what is your background in Football?

Cheers

Just quickly, decentric.

When you are running your sessions do you make (direct) reference to KNVB terms, jargon and TLA's to the players?

And, have you ever handed out any written documention to these kids?

11 v 11 games should soon be started with 13 year olds according to FFA's Building Blocks.



You just don't seem to learn do you, regarding the KNVB preferred midfield triangle?

Why is the two screener system used in preference?

What is a considerable strength of contemporary teams for the two screener system to have been used more often than in the past?

If you had done some contemporary football theory you would know why. But you haven't, and continue to refuse to do so.



Edited by Decentric: 9/5/2011 12:34:05 AM

Edited by Decentric: 18/2/2013 11:22:40 PM

The 4-3-3 with the two screener system for the midfield triangle is harder to teach than the the one screener midfield triangle.

Andy J. came up with an interesting way to teach the 4-3-3 with the two screener system.

He used it in 4 lines as a 4-2-3-1.

I haven't heard that anywhere else. It certainly has merit.

I'm going to lay all the 4-3-3 variations out in this thread over the next few weeks. There seems to be some misunderstanding about the
4-3-3 and its flexibility as an attacking and defensive system.

Edited by Decentric: 9/5/2011 12:31:46 AM

You non answer to this is worrying.

One thing we've confirmed on here, without equivocation, is that you are no more than a text book coach. That's not even up for discussion. Nothing else in your kitbag, 'cept a pile of dog-eared and costly documentation.

I sssume your sessions with the "mobile school of sockah theory" go something like this:

"children, today I will be teaching you about contemporary methodology"
"this methodology is what made [insert name of current world superstar]"
"Michel Owen was not coached under this methodology, hence the reason why he's a dud and life failure"
"and Zidane could have been significantly better, if only he had access to my email address"
"now, I shall be introducing you to KNVB, TIC, 433, midfield diamonds, bowls, yadda yadda"
"I shall also be pointing you to the Matthews cut and the Kleberson double twist in pike position - see page 147 of the prepared texts"
"this will be followed by a short written examination -marks will be deducted for incorrect spelling and grammar"
"next session will be by correspondence - I'll shall email you the PDF's anon"

A tip for you decentric. Kid's aren't totally stupid, regardless of their playing ability. Won't take them long to spot a dullard fraud. I'd suggest you keep that school very mobile. Repeat customers might become an issue.



Edited by judy free: 9/5/2011 08:10:02 AM

'](*,)


This is the most fatuous troll I've seen to a post I've made on the interweb in five years. If you genuinely mean it, you must be a dead set moron who lacks any cognitive capacity whatsoever to critically evaluate or interpret.

I have 25 years plus experience and have had success teaching kids to write, read, think and become numerate. I've even had other teachers come into my room to observe sound teaching practice, because of the success I have with students 6-8 years old. I've even assisted other teachers to train.

Of course I don't use lots of jargon speaking to young kids. I have to simplify everything and break things own into sequential and incremental steps. I have to use simple, concise, clear language. I also taught kids learning English as a second language in the middle- east. I also coached them in football.

These classroom techniques extrapolate to football coaching.

All those years of teaching infant kids 30 hours a week equate to useful practical experience to assist children toacquire football skills/game intelligence on the training track.

It is the same scenario for any professional teacher, like Mikey S, Two Dogs, Claudmiarron, Indio, etc, if they coach football.

My communication skills on the training track are sound, acquired over years doing this professionally as a teacher, particularly with players age 12 down to 6 years old.
I've spent 25 years plus dealing with that age group every day, forty weeks per year, with considerable success at work. It would be the same for most other professional primary teachers if they had played and trained in football, then coached kids.

One of the greatest inherent buzzes I get is that how quickly the kids I've coached in the last few years are learning. If the kids are nice too and appreciative, it is even better.

Any of us with this skill set can still learn from others though.
[/










Edited by Decentric: 26/6/2012 11:27:47 PM

[i]Edited by Decentric: 18/2/2013 11:24:57 PM

This is the 4-3-3 with the flat midfield which is fairly easy to set out compared to the midfield triangular formations.

It was used by Juventus when they won the Champions' League in 1996.


Flat midfield 4-3-3


....X................X...............X.................X.....


..............X..............X................X


....X.......................X.........................X

Edited by Decentric: 17/5/2011 10:19:58 PM

Another mystery solved.

Thank you, decentric.

FMD:lol: :lol: :lol:

This is the preferred system that KNVB suggest starting with.


The 4-3-3 midfield triangle with two screeners and one attacking midfielder.


...X................X...............X.................X.....

................X........................X

............................X

....X.......................X.........................X



To develop the team playing the shape, use the back seven a lot in games against 2 players increasing to 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 attacking players. Two is used to limit the amount of offensive pressure as the back seven are learning the shape.


...X................X...............X.................X.....

................X........................X

............................X


When the ball is on the left, the midfield triangle rotates. The inverse would operate on the right.

------X
---------------X

O--------X

O denotes ball


This two screener system was deployed to prevent the accelerated attacking capabilities of contemporary football teams.

Edited by Decentric: 17/5/2011 10:20:59 PM

A number of coaches including state youth coaches, have found the one screener midfield triangle is easier to utitilise than the two screener triangle with players learning the system.

On eoption set out by Andy J was to try the 4-2-3-1 to teach the 4-3-3 with the two screener triangle. The four lines model has merit.

Th eincremental stages a can work well onteh trainjg ground with the two screener system, but under match conditions can break down more easily than hte one screener triangle for teams familiarising themselves withthe sytem..


4-3-3 with the two screener triangle in midfield.

...X................X...............X.................X.....

................X........................X

............................X

....X.......................X.........................X

THis 4-3-3 variation can become this as a 4-2-3-1 by moving the wingers back to the attacking midfield line. The 4-2-3-1 is a more defensive variation of the 4-3-3 version with midfield screeners in the midfield triangle.


4-2-3-1

...X................X...............X.................X.....

................X........................X

.....X.....................X......................X

...........................X......

One can also use the 4-3-3-in attack and the 4-2-3-1 in defence.



KNVB recomend the ideal shape to be compact in a 40 metre by metre square depending on the size of the pitch.

The ideal distancing between the lines and between the players within the lines is 10 to 15 metres.

STFA Striker has just finished his FFA Senior Licence. He claimed that coaches were confused about the 4-3-3 at the end of the course. He said he thought it was essentially an attacking system. These are two more conservative/defensive variations of the 4-3-3.



Edited by Decentric: 17/5/2011 10:22:19 PM

THis is the more attacking version of the 4-3-3. The triangle which has one screener and two attacking mids.

The 4-3-3 with one screener in the midfield triangle.


..X................X...............X.................X.....

............................X

................X......................X

....X.......................X.........................X


Empirically a few of us have found this easier to coach. The single midfield screener seems to be able to hold position more easily than the twin screener system.

Of course like the two screener midfield system it should be taught as a defensive seven against limited pressure from attacking players.


X................X...............X.................X.....

............................X

................X......................X

Again it is best to have the seven playing against 2 offensive players, then 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7, as the ability to hold the shape improves. The 7v7 is the precursor to the full 11 v 11 one screener triangular midfield shape in 4-3-3.


When the ball is on the left, the triangle needs to rotate. The inverse applies when the ball is on the right for the midfield triangle.


-----------X

----X
O-------------X

O denotes ball.

Edited by Decentric: 17/5/2011 10:49:49 PM

The 4-3-3 with one screener in the midfield triangle.


..X................X...............X.................X.....

............................X

................X......................X

....X.......................X.........................X


Now to make this formation more defensive one can move the two wingers back to the attacking midfield line. The two attacking midfielders tuck in more centrally.

This assumes the 4-5-1 formation in the 4-1-4-1 manifestation.


..X................X...............X.................X.....

............................X

..X................X................X............... X

...........................X


Hiddink sometimes used this formation for Australia. He used this 4-3-3 variation in attack and the 4-5-1 variation in defence.

Generally Verbeek used the 4-2-3-1. Sometimes the team manifested as a 4-3-3 in attack, but with two screeners creating the midfield triangle in midfield.

Hiddink also used the two screener option on occasions too.

Edited by Decentric: 17/5/2011 10:48:50 PM

There are many more variations to come yet for the 4-3-3. I'll post them when I have time.

I can't believe the guys who received their FFA Senior Licences were so nebulous about the formation if it was taught correctly.

Pim and Guus could use 4-3-3 very effectively as a defensive system!!!!

Pimm's 7-3-0 system has been written into aussie sockah folklore.

4-2-3-1

...X................X...............X.................X.....

................X........................X

.....X.....................X......................X

...........................X......

The 4-2-3-1 can be made more defensive again by inverting the the 2 and 3 in midfield to become a 4-3-2-1.

This is also known as the Christmas tree formation. Verbeek used it against Japan, in Japan, when Australia only needed a draw. Verbeek played Culina, Grella and Valeri in the defensive midfield line. It is not 4-3-3, but it is a derivative of 4-2-3-1, which is a defensive 4-3-3.

4-3-2-1


...X................X...............X.................X.....

...........X...............X..................X

................X......................X

...........................X......

4-2-3-1

...X................X...............X.................X.....

................X........................X

.....X.....................X......................X

...........................X......




One way Verbeek made the 4-2-3-1 more attacking was sometimes to make it a 3-3-3-1. He stacked the midfield. He moved Wilkshire up on the wide right as an extra midfielder. Carney tucked in to become a left centre back in a back three.


3-3-3-1

.......X....................X..................(C).X.


.(W).X.....................X.....................X.....


.....X.....................X......................X


...........................X......

The 4-3-3 midfield triangle with two screeners and one attacking midfielder.


.The 4-3-3 midfield triangle with two screeners and one attacking midfielder.


...X................X...............X.................X.....

................X........................X

............................X

....X.....................X.........................X



The 4-3-3 midfield triangle with two screeners and one attacking midfielder, can become a 4-3-3 with a back 1:3. Netherlands played this formation at the 1978 World Cup final when Krol played behind Brandts.
Argentina played a 4-3-3 with the one screener midfield triangle in the same game.

4-3-3 with a back 1:3.

...........................X

......X...................X................X.....

................X.....................X
............................X

....X......................X......................X




Edited by Decentric: 22/5/2011 05:40:17 PM

.The 4-3-3 midfield triangle with two screeners and one attacking midfielder.


...X................X...............X.................X.....

................X........................X

............................X

....X.......................X.........................X


This formation can also become a 3:1 defensive line, or a midfield diamond, which can be interpreted as a 3-4-3. Ajax won the European Champions' League with this formation in 1995.


3-4-3




...X........................X..........................X.....

............................X

................X........................X

...........................X

....X.....................X.........................X


Edited by Decentric: 22/5/2011 05:41:19 PM