It is merely because the 4-3-3 system is very easy to implement in stages. Once you are past the purely learning period of player development (13 and up to me) then the 4-3-3 system has less relevance a tool to drive player learning. During actual competitive matches the system should be flexible to deal with the strengths and weaknesses of the opposition, the team should have the ability to compress and expand their lines and move the players to vary between numerous formations depending on the individual game conditions. Sticking ridgidly to a single formation regardless of the way the game is being played out shows nothing but a basic lack of understanding in the way that a game is a fluid encounter, not a static and predictable situation.

Given your arrogance and willingness to pontificate over the last four years, explain to the punters the inherent strengths/weaknesses of these formations, Chips?

You say they are paper formations, but there are variations. You still cannot explain optimum distances for players within the lines, and, between the lines in a formation, because you lack the methodological and theoretical knowledge to do so.

So for all your arrogant self- acclaimed experience, Chips, if it has been derived from methodologically unsound sources, you lack the credibility to pontificate like you do.
I will ask you again, for the umpteenth time. If FFA have got it wrong with the appointment of Berger ad Baan, who would you advocate as TD appointees instead with the same world acclaimed methodological training?


Which 4-4-2 formation is most easily interchangeable with which 4-3-3 system?

The 4-3-3 advocated by Han Berger has a sound methodological base. Certain geometric formations are more conducive to enhance passing lanes when a team has possession of the ball with which formation? Why?

As usual you will fail to answer these questions I've posed, yet you continue to denigrate FFA. You will continue to provide no alternatives to the path FFA have proposed.
There is a difference between the normative and the empirical. The ought and the is. Because the implementation has problems it doesn't mean the methodological base of FFA is flawed.

I agree there have been problems with implementation, with the message reaching the grass roots coaches in Australa, but that doesn't detract from the sound methodological basis which hads been embarked on by FFA.


In this state the FFA TD is providing logistical support for our mobile football school to achieve this end. An edict was issued by FFA for him to do so. This is a tangible example of FFA enhancing the grass roots development of coaching reaching the grass roots coaches and players. There needs to be more of it fast.

A Football Federation Tasmania staff coach has also been holding seminars for local coaches to teach the nuances of the 4-3-3 system. This is a positive development.



Edited by Decentric: 3/5/2011 11:24:04 AM

Another point is that 4-3-3 with its inherent triangular shapes is much harder to teach than the flat 4-4-2.

It is far easier for a player to adapt to the 4-4-2 with a flat midfield as a senior player with earlier training at youth level in the 4-3-3, than the inverse scenario.

I see.

A kid who's been used mainly off the bench in the HAL is the star performer of the new coaching paradigm?

What a wonderful ROI compared to past epochs of the strayan fotball milieu.

I wouldn't be using Scott McDonald as a star performer either though Chips.

That's an interesting line of thought, GA.

But isn't SSG's considered vital up until the age of around 13?

How do you develop players <12 in utilising 433 in an SSG setting?

Oh and classic decentric.....triangles are the exclusive domain of 433. :lol:

It takes time to learn a different way of playing.


Like Chips, with Berger's salary, who would you employ instead with similar qualifications in world acclaimed football methodology?

Which countries sought Australian football expertise to develop their methodology prior to 2003? Conversely, why have so many countries sought French, Dutch, Italian and Brazilian expertise?

If nobody took up the Australian coaching paradigm, why? How could it be better than the current KNVB oriented FFA training methodology?

Berger is not a second rate hack.

No, he's not.

But at age 18 (and now) he had progressed to far superior company than the current dutch-stamped mob.

Which is exactly the point that was being discussed.

come on chips scotty is bloody 26-27, amini and the like are only 18....... i cant see that you can pass jusdgement on their success until they are of a similar age

One develops players younger than 12 by incremental stages of learning a 4-3-3.

There is a four stage KNVB process in teaching specific SSGs to teach the nuances of the 4-3-3. It is a very good, prescriptive system. Anyone wanting more detail can look at the KNVB thread I've started in the Performance Section.

I've used it successfully to win a state championship against very experienced coaches with more talented players than the team I coached.

Explain what the incremental KNVB process is Chips, and how you would apply it in context.

I've noticed you have failed to answer the aforementioned methodological questions I've posed in previous posts, yet again. Your arrogance matches your ignorance.

You don't get it, do you.

Very easy to fap yaself silly over a plethora of promising kids.

Didn't we do this, ad nauseum, over someone called Kaz Patafta?

BENFICAHHHHHHGHH! :lol:

Issue here is that not one player has managed to step up to the plate since the 5th rate dutch hacks pulled up their caravan on strayan shores. Our production line of good young prospects has gone backwards.

But hey, if it's not about individual players making themselves known internationally, let's have a look at things a little more tangible i.e. recent U16's results. Even decentric would wince at their sheer ugliness of it all.

Can you expand, STFA striker?

Were there incremental stages provided to teach the 4-3-3?

I circumvented the Senior Licence.

1999 under17s made the final, but that is the only time. Most other generations were uncompetitive, plus as others stated, none from that team play at any elite level. So i wouldnt be using that as the sole factor for the current systems inferiority. Nor what i be using the clubs the players were contracted too at the time of that tourni as a factor, as most were youth based and never involved in senior duties. Go through a list of under20s/17 players currently overseas and youll find some impressive list of clubs. Julius Doe Davis is contracted to Bayern Munich, does that champion the current development system? no. Neither does Kewell at leeds champion Soccer Australias development system.

4-3-3 has about 6/7 variations.

4-4-2 also has many variations.

Some Dutch trained coaches have expressed a liking for the diamond midfield 4-4-2 because the back seven is similar to the attacking midfield triangle of the 4-3-3. That is a useful crossover point between the 4-3-3 and the 4-4-2.

The difference is in the front three.

Yes, I know, you've told us 27,000 times.

IIRC your gala day successes with your junior girls team was the catalyst for comparing yourself with Arsene Wenger.



I don't doubt your thirst for text book theory, decentric. And your copy and paste skills are probably better than mine. But player development is done on the park, not on the internet or in written exams.

I've never said that.

You've failed to answer the methodological questions again.

I can't believe you are are willing to suffer the ignominy of it.



Edited by Decentric: 3/5/2011 12:00:05 PM

It is, but they don't progress to full sized games until the last few years. Early on SSGs are 3v3, 4v4, 5v5 and 7v7, it is much easier to use 4-3-3 as the basic formation when you have those numbers of players. You start with a trangle, then a diamond, then a diamond with keeper and then you add 2 more players to give more strength in transition from defense to attack.

Conceptually these are easier to teach to kids than starting with a full on 11v11, especially as that results in some kids doing basically nothing over the course of a game.

Another thing is that when kids are little and playing SSGs winning is completely irrelevant, all you want them to be doing is playing with their mates in a small area and starting the long process of developing spacial awareness in a game situation. I also think that we should be looking at incorporating futsal into the national cirriculum along with beach football to compliment SSGs.

I just re read what I wrote and realised I didn't really answer your question!

OK utilising 4-3-3 as the basic formation in its incremental stages during kids development within a SSG environment is for the purpose of encouraging kids to come up with inovative ways to beat an opponent and also to encourage them to support each other through their field positioning. Early on in SSGs you will essentially see a pack of kids clustered around the ball and kicking it into each others legs. By teaching the kids the basics of the game whilst utilising simple static shapes (triangles and diamonds/squares) you are encouraging them to think about making angled passes and about possitioning themselves in order to both make and receive those types of passes. This directly correlates to the development of the all important game awareness that people note in top level players, that ability to receive a ball and then hit a cross field pass without looking to where you 'know' a player is going to be.

Also by utilising these simple static shapes in direct opposition to each other you encourage 1v1 situations that force the kids to discover ways of beating an opponent to either make a pass/shot or to strip them of possession and covert your defense to attack.

Am I answering your question Chips? I am sorry if I am not being as clear as I want.

I've applied the KNVB process successfully on the training ground and I'm continuing to do so. The same as the other coaches who did the course, with Arthur Papas achieving success at a pretty high level.

Mehmet Durakovic is having success with Victory at the moment, applying it on the training ground, if his match formations and tactics are a guide.

Havent you learnt yet!! Stop being so positive/optimistic/supportive[-x .....lol...

Errrrrrrr papas is achieving success because of the benefactor of the club he coaches has opened the cheque book and recruited the best players in the VPL on the highest wages in the league.

You did well, mate.

Appreciated.

But SSG's, with triangles, diamonds etc were being used as far back as 1990 in the Sydney sockah scene, without reference to full field shape.

Technique learnt at age 10 is transportable to any system. Even Pimms classic 8-2-0 formation.

We need to be careful of not getting ourselves majoring in the minor shit.

Yeah i also heard Sir Alex Furguson is actually a pony that ManU players take show rides on at training..

http://player.globalfootballsystem.com/index.php?sample&cfm=VGhlIGFnZSBncm91cCBpcyBjaGFuZ2VkLg==

I don't know if the link above will work but it points to Global Football System which outlines quite nicely the preferred formation for small sided games leading up to 11v11 and 4-3-3 formation.

Look no doubt papppas is a decent coach but at the moment in his career he has not achieved much.

And it is quite mischievious of decentric not to mention the recruitment of the best players in the VPL on exorbitant wages.

Sorry probably not mischievious as much as ignorant as decentric would have had NFI about that.

I agree wholeheartedly that it is transportable to any system. What I like about the 4-3-3 formation as the graduation formation is that it actively continues to encourage the skills and abilities being taught during those initial SSGs. It also encourages kids to utilise every player on the pitch in order to break down the opposition and also to defend against them. 4-4-2, in particular the flat 4-4-2, does not do this to quite the same extent. Players need to stick more to their 'position' in order for the team as a whole to keep its structure. The 4-3-3 seems (I could be very wrong) to be more flexible in it response to changes in game situation and the structure of the team is less vulnerable to breaking down.

edit: It is good to know about how the developmental power house that was Sydney was utilising these techniques, what I think you will find is that they were not techniques that were being utlised Australia wide or being actively encouraged by Soccer Australia. By enforcing SSGs and the 4-3-3 it is making more coaches utilise these techniques which already have strong evidence within Australia as to being best practise. In many ways paying someone relatively big money to come in and enact this is worth every penny as we would have found it much harder to generate these same procedures entirely internally given the inherent conservatism in Australian society.

Edited by General Ashnak: 3/5/2011 12:50:34 PM

And a development system not based on paper based philosophy doesn't?



Rule number one of coaching. Without the ball every team member is a defender. With the ball every team member is an attacker. You teach this in U8's. Most semi decent coaches do not require a paper based model to tell them that.




GA, it only takes one player in, say, a 442 to shift 10m in any direction and you have a new variation of any system. Happens in all games, everywhere. Primarily 'cos informed coaches give their playere specific ROLES.

Of course it does, my preference on 4-3-3 is purely asthetic - I like how it looks!


But most kids are not taught by semi decent coaches and so that is why we need a paper based model to tell them that.


I agree, yet most coaches are at a level of knowledge where the ability to impart this information to their players is insufficient. The FFA's iniative to enforce this knowledge onto the next generation of coaches and those existing coaches who do not already understand this is a good thing.

Chips you are obviously good at what you do, you also obviously know what you are doing - but you are not an example of what the majority of coaches in Australia are, and you are not an example of what the vast majority of kids playing the game experience. I know you are a big believer in the cream rising to the top, but wouldn't you like to have more milk in the vat?

Sorry for referring back to an argument from page 1, but...



Not an issue provided they also reduce squad sizes by 3 and cancel the injury replacement rule - thus forcing teams to use youth players rather than bring in the next journeyman from the state league.

Well it hasn't happened yet, Berger is on record stating he is against its absolution. Personally the only issue with the current squad details I have are the size of the bench, the salary floor being too high and the injury replacement rule resulting in clubs not looking at their NYL team as a serious developmental squad.

I should have driven to SBS last night to hit on Julie Nehme…

Han spoke OK to me, we’re not Brazil, but at least we have something. Also the time to talk about this technical shit was when the National Plan was being developed, not years after it was accepted as standard. With internet streaming and so on, any old idiot from around the plant could have tuned in and listened to Han and the FFA is paying him $600,000 if Duty Free Chips is right in his wage guess.