I noticed the crowd for the grand final of the VPL was 3-4k. I’m unsure of past crowds but that is woeful, i would have thought a crowd of 10k for a state final should be the minimum expected.

The three major areas that affect a leagues sporting attendance generally are, price, entertainment and connection/passion.

The price is already cheap. Entertainment/standard of play is good and will always be limited compared to higher levels, it is difficult to improve this area without setting unrealistic expectations.

That leaves connection, either the sport is a crap sport and no one is willing to support it or the clubs are not connecting with their local area enough. There are two ways that a connection can be increased. From the top down [a-league interest] and from the bottom up [local support]. At the moment top down interest is limited and the bottom up interest appears to be very low.

While the bottom up responsibility falls back to the clubs, the competition structure could be changed to help assist them.

To increase bottom up interest:
- Reduce divisions to a single division with ~12 teams geographically based teams [removes any ethnic connotation whatsoever].
- Connect each state team to a junior association with only zonal recruiting allowed from that area
- Based on this increase in support from the changes above, look for an increase in local media support much as the VFL, WANFL, SANFL receive i.e. abc coverage rather than channel 31 or less.

To increase top down interest [requires the competition to be of more use to a-league clubs]:
- Reduce divisions to a single division with ~12 teams, raises standard of play and concentrates talent
- Give move emphasis on youth, mechanism of how this is done is not important
- Align 1/2 of the teams to each a-league team, joint activities, community days etc
- Joint promotional support, for instance the VPL grand final should have been on the victory website
- Players from each a-league to play for their locally aligned club in the off season

This was only written in 10 mins but i think that just about covers it. As these reforms are obvious i can't help but think there is something i'm not aware of which is holding them up.

A bit of promotion by the local media wouldn't hurt either....

You're an idiot

So to increase interest in the A-League as well should we limit teams to only recruit from their respective areas as well?

To generate more crowds, the game needs to feel important to people. This is through media promotion and as you said TV coverage. Personally I think it would be great if a station like SBS or the ABC could do a match of the week broadcast. The FFV are slowly making in roads to promote the game more, but I feel more could be done. The last VPL round was actually quite exciting with every spot in the top 5 still up for grabs, but nothing was done to make a big deal about this.

I agree with some point's but it's not exactly possible any time soon.

Edited by nhub24: 5/9/2011 07:12:03 PM

Except for the A-League alignment, what you just described sounds dangerously similar to the Victorian Champions League, which runs over summer alongside the VPL, is divided into geographical regions, and sucks.

Edited by paladisious: 5/9/2011 07:52:59 PM

4,000 was actually a decent turnout considering Gully and Oakleigh have no real fan base.
You'll only ever a get a good crowd if a South, Preston, Knights, Heidelberg, Dandy Thunder are involved in the final nowdays. No one apart from the die-hards give a stuff about 2nd tier football. And even less or no one will care if there was a 'zonal' comp. As if there aren't better things to do than follow your local 2nd tier manufactured zonal franchise

:roll:.

The FFV's main objective nowdays is to fine the fuck out of every club it possibly can for the most trivial of matters rather than to promote its competition and teams. Just ask anyone out there malaka.

True.

Bingo!!!

X 2

The more people start to realise just how weak an idea is to create new SL clubs, the moment we can all move on with the game. I used to think the idea had merit, but I now see no value in such an idea.

If many people see no value in the HAL, for numerous reasons, how will they bother to connect to a new 2nd tier team? Just not going to happen.

Completely agree, and also for the most part people in this country have no interest in second tier teams. I hear a lot the reason people stopped supporting their NSL team is that they wanted to support a team playing at the highest level. It's just what happens here.

Refer FFV Summer League Expression of Interest Document;

http://www.awfa.asn.au/site/images/stories/pdfs/080523%20-%20summer%20league%20-%20explanatory%20memo%20-%20final.pdf

your an idiot

I am sure you would consider any of the A League games bigger than a VPL GF

However Heart minus Victory and other clubs averaged less or there abouts of 4k last season

smfc in a VPL GF would get 10k

get rid of the ethnic element and the game will be crippled for good at all levels




Edited by chris: 7/9/2011 05:14:14 PM

It would definitely help, but to get that media coverage there needs to be more demand from the community.


Recruiting from your own zone increases the importance, it creates a stronger local bond, if you live in a certain area you know that’s your local team and it focuses the club to work/develop the area in order to be successful.

More media coverage will help gain greater crowds, but to get the coverage the game needs to generate demand/interest and be selling a different message. That won’t happen by changing nothing.


Ignoring politics, as far as i can tell almost all would be immediately possible.


Sloppy post and subsequent posts by others. The only similarities are less teams and i presume zonal recruiting and those similarities work well in other sports e.g. aussie rules and athletics. The remainder is not similar at all. What i am suggesting is taking what we have and organising better it to attract more, not creating a new hostile competition.


You’re misinterpreting the word zonal, it doesn’t mean a '2nd tier manufactured zonal franchise' it means giving existing and merged clubs a region to develop and it works in other sports.

I’d also like to think there’s ways to improve and grow rather than just put on the defeatist attitude that no one would be interested in the 2nd tier and blame the FFV for everything, although i can see how that would be popular talk on the terraces.



The game has well and truly moved beyond the ethnic element now, for most clubs it's not even relevant anymore, but that was only a minor part of my post, most was about concentrating and localising the support.

Edited by kapow!: 7/9/2011 07:33:28 PM

Response written in 10 minutes, could spend all night suggesting better methodology.

I like a good old fashioned champions league model where every club in the state plays in the local zonal/regional league comps viying for spots in a state-wide finals tourney

I don't mind the idea, but whether or not it benefits or detracts from the quality of the game is questionable. It would likely just add more complexity to the structure.

The VPL is a good comp, and with the Mirrabella Cup there is a good amount of football opportunities across the state.

Good in what regard HF? At the moment the VPL at the moment is a bit of a nothing competition, it's not getting enough local support and is not optimised towards developing a-league talent either.

You might do 'your' methodology, but i don’t think anything substantial will come of it, because what i have suggested in my first post is just copied from what is done in other sports which works really well.


Edited by kapow!: 8/9/2011 05:45:03 PM

You appear to be operating under the mistaken belief that people would go to watch a zonal development league in Melbourne.

In my experience people go to see elite competitions, or they go to see teams they have an emotional connection to, if a competition fails in either of these regards, it won't get large support...

State leagues by definition are not the elite - that's the national competition. Thus, clubs who could pull in 5-10k in the NSL are now only able to pull in 1k in the VPL.

An emotional connection is forced via long term association - thus clubs at the state league level need to have been around for a while in order to get a crowd.

Start-up zonal teams will not attract local interest simply because they exist. It doesn't happen.

The FFV expected to have their new zonal teams and competition up and running in 2008. We are still waiting. With no possibility of "investors" it's won't and never will.

nah it's almost if you deliberately misread? I didn't suggest start up zonal teams, i suggested taking the existing teams and merged smaller teams and giving them a zone to develop. It works in other sports in enhancing the local connection.

If you’re selling the same message over and over and the local community has already made their mind up, the situation isn't going to magically come good over time without reforms or if it does it will be a lot slower process. The VPL clubs are proof of that.


You do have a knack of adding very little don't you? Unless of course it's misguided theories on youth development.

What you are suggesting is that clubs that have existed for up to 50 years should surrender their identity and merge with rivals - do you honestly believe that's plausible?

Accepting that the miraculous merging of teams and giving up of identity is not going to happen - then the only way to pull off your idea would be for new teams to be started up.

It may work in other sports (I don't know enough about other sports to say), but this is not any other sport - this is football, arguable the most tribal sport in the world.

The argument about local football being unattractive because of the ethnic perceptions would be acceptable if the non-ethnic clubs in other states actually got crowds... But they don't. They don't for the simple reason that sports fan don't want to watch second grade competitions.

You seem to write a lot, but say little don't you?

You have a knack of be-littling people that don't tag along with your view of the world, but I will put my experience, relevance and performance in the area of Youth Development up against you any day.



Arthur 1 Kapow! 0


Your opinion is not FACT Kapow! Please understand that. Drawing conclusions from your opinions as if they were fact only makes you look silly.

Take this classic Kapowism?



Based On?
Have you any research in this area?
Plenty of stuff on the internet about it, you can refer to even some academic studies. Too lazy I guess.

Then to eliminate the ones you don't like on pure guess and use the tird point to ram home your point, is exposing your prejudice and the height of narcisistic arrogance.

Here's a

For you.

Then the classic of classics;



Think what you could acheive if you spent 20 minutes on it?


PS Thought you'd enjoy the picture:lol:

Edited by Arthur: 9/9/2011 09:27:07 PM

So, Arthur, go to your room and once again, don't come out till you learn to add more and correct your misguided theories. Ya hear? [-x

And it goes on, and on and.....................................zzzzzz

An idea for next season - I wonder what people would think of it...

Take the existing 10 teams, plus the 2 promoted sides

Then 'create' two new clubs - one based in the north-east with a squad mainly consisting of Melbourne Victory youth/reserves (and old boys), the other based in the south-west with a squad mainly consisting of Melbourne Heart youths/reserves.

This would provide new 'broadbased' clubs with no ethnic ties in two parts of the city currently not represented in the VPL - it would also provide an opportunity for Victory and Heart to clarify a geographical identity - one from the east and the west.

The 'i'm persecuted' line would make more sense if you weren't the one posting snide remarks in my topic. I gave you the courtesy of ignoring the first one, but as you're a bit like skeptic in that unless you're addressed you keeping posting in the hope of getting some attention, i thought i'd nip it in the bud.



The history and identity of state league teams is no different to teams in other competitions which merge. Unless a rivalry is especially strong it's not insurmountable, it just means that not everyone will be converted, however a fair chunk will be and *it will be enough to form a club*. As we're dealing with such small numbers in an attempt grow the game i'd encourage it. Staying the same won’t change a thing.


Zones enhance tribalism they don’t decrease it. In Australia aussie rules is the number 1 tribal sport by a mile in which it works well.


The simple evidence that they are unattractive is a club like SM can't diversify it's board or supporter base. However that *wasn't* the point being made, it was how can we put mechanisms in place to strengthen state league teams local connection, as that is their main selling point.

The other states have the same problems as us, as far as i’m aware none have any of my suggestions, i was just concerned with our competition.


The only reason you’re against aligning state league clubs to a-league clubs is because you unrealistically hold onto the hope that the club you support will one day be in the a-league.

Setting up new a-league state teams in those areas, doesn’t make sense symbolically as the a-league clubs are state representatives, not representatives of those areas and leaving the remaining state league teams unaligned doesn’t maximise the amount of follow through and feedback support.

I’d also say having a reserves team would cheapen the competition, compared to having players going back and adding to existing clubs.

I forgot to mention in my opening post that i would *slightly* skew clubs towards the outer suburbs and country areas, as the VFL does, to compensate for the two a-league clubs being ‘melbourne’ teams. I’d throw a tassie team in too like the VFL does if it is feasible.

Anyway, i’d say this topic has run its race, it's a shame nothing will happen and the game will continue to shoot itself in the foot.