You've only said that Abbott should have copied Obama and offered not to spy and given a personal apology. That is insufficient on two counts. Firstly its insufficient because, as ive outlined already, it would be exceptionally naive to think that a promise not to spy would be a promise that would actually be carried out. Secondly, going for the apology and approaching it with our tails between our legs is exactly what Indonesia want so that they can benefit greatly from this and gain some political advantage. So your reasoning for saying Abbotts response is very weak. Id be willing to see your point explained from a slightly different to that so i can at least see where you are coming from because at the moment it just seems like an attack on abbott (as ive already outlined)

No doubt China is spying on Australia, China is spying on Indonesia, and Indonesia is spying on Australia. These things happen.

But - Australia was caught.

Abbott needs to swallow his pride, and apologise on behalf of Australia. It's the correct diplomatic decorum in this case, and in case he doesn't realise it - with him being the Prime Minister, he is responsible for what occurs.

Not at all saying that either. Merely saying what is wrong with a country spying on another country when every country seems to spy one each other?

You've only said that Abbott should have copied Obama and offered not to spy and given a personal apology. That is insufficient on two counts. Firstly its insufficient because, as ive outlined already, it would be exceptionally naive to think that a promise not to spy would be a promise that would actually be carried out. Secondly, going for the apology and approaching it with our tails between our legs is exactly what Indonesia want so that they can benefit greatly from this and gain some political advantage. So your reasoning for saying Abbotts response is very weak. Id be willing to see your point explained from a slightly different to that so i can at least see where you are coming from because at the moment it just seems like an attack on abbott (as ive already outlined)

10GbE on Cat7 which requires a far far higher power input/output and that technology isn't applicable for something like NBN (it's a core->server or edge type medium connection only) and certainly not at lengths of more then 100m lol.

-PB

So what exactly did Australia do wrong?

Or is it a 'oooo lets just senselessly attack Abbott'

no we are doing 10gig on cat6A, in the lab cat6a is doing gig over rather long lengths, seen it experienced it....it's not smoke and mirrors...cat 7 and future standrads are yet to be fully ratified ....

If you're quite finished putting words in my mouth...

Abbotts actions speak for themselves. I have already explained why his response has been insufficient.

I would be saying the same of any leader in the same position.

That's only good at less than 100 meters.

At which point, you might as well just build FTTP all the way anyway, since you'll end up needing half a million nodes for a FTTN plan with 100 meter lengths into the house and you need to replace the copper going into the house from the existing copper to new copper.

If you'd like to stop throwing up red herrings, ad hominems and straw men I would be more than happy to discuss why you are wrong.

Yudhoyono suspends people-smuggling cooperation with Australia
INDONESIAN President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono says Jakarta will suspend cooperation with Australia on people-smuggling operations until he gets an official response from Tony Abbott over the spying allegation scandal.

Speaking to the Indonesian nation live on television the President said he was still demanding an official explanation from Australia.

"I am still waiting ... We will be sending a letter to the Prime Minister," he said.

Tony Abbott has refused to apologise over revelations Australian spies monitored Mr Yudhoyono's mobile phone, but expressed regret at any embarrassment felt by the President.

Speaking to the BBC earlier today, Marty Natalegawa said Indonesia had already begin downgrading the bilateral relationship, and Australia could not simply "press on regardless".

In an apparent reference to US Barack Obama's apology to Germany's Angela Merkel over similar spying revelations, Mr Natalegawa said that a more "nuanced" approach was required from Australia.

"Australia must take concrete steps and strong signals of its wish to repair the almost irreparable damage that they are causing,'' Dr Natalegawa said.

"The Australian intelligence community has run amok. It has conducted activities that are illegal in Indonesia, illegal in Australia, and certainly in contravention of international law and humanitarian rights practices as well" he said.

"I think there are recent examples elsewhere, involving other countries, where a far more considered and far more nuanced response was able to channel a resolution of the issue. Perhaps the Australian authorities should look to these kind of experiences elsewhere."

Meanwhile, the head of Indonesia's intelligence service says he has been assured by his Australian counterparts that they will not tap the phones of the country's president again.

Marciano Norman, chief of the Indonesian State Intelligence Agency (BIN), said the body has spoken to Australian intelligence officials about the claims.

''Indonesia's intelligence body has communicated directly with Australian intelligence and in our communication, they stated that now and in the future, the most important thing that it won't happen again,'' Mr Norman told reporters at Jakarta's presidential palace.

''That's their language, now and in future, they assured that it won't happen again.''


Speaking before his meeting with Mr Kesoema, Dr Natalegawa said that the level of the downgrade in relations, including co-operation over people-smuggling, would depend on Australia's response to rising Indonesian anger over the scandal.

"Downgrading the level of the relationship between Indonesia and Australia has been done,'' Dr Natalegawa said.

''We have already adjusted various forms of cooperation.

''We are turning off the tap by degrees.''

'It is being measured according to (Australia's) response and stance.''

Leaving the Foreign Ministry a short time ago, Dr Natalegawa said: ''Right now we are going to meet Mr President to report the latest developments."

In the only sign of pull-back by the Indonesian government so far today, Coordinating Minister for Politics Security and Law Djoko Suyanto said: ''We are reviewing a number of cooperations (with Australia), it doesn’t mean all.”

Mr Djoko declined to discuss whether Indonesian intelligence agencies had spied on Australia.

''I cannot give an explanation yet, because the meeting (with Dr Yudhoyono) is about to start now''

Trade Minister Gita Wirjawan has reportedly warned that Indonesia will seek alternative trade sources if the Australian crisis worsened.

Republika website quoted Mr Gita in Surabaya yesterday (tuesday) saying: It is a serious issue.

''We need therefore to make our position clear so that the Australian Government acts quickly.

''If these relations are disrupted we will beed to seek other countries as trading partners. "

Live cattle trade sources told The Australian today there was no indication of Indonesia seeking again to clamp down on the sensitive trade.

On the contrary, the Trade Ministry had authorised quotas for an additional 120,000 head of cattle in the December, trying to curb near-record beef market prices for this time of year.

Indonesian Law and Human Rights Ministry spokesman Marolan J. Barimbing also said preparations are under way to ``lower the level of cooperation'' with Australia in relation to anti-people-smuggling operations.

''Once there are instructions, we are ready to lower the level of co-operation,'' Mr Marolan told the Jakarta Post newspaper.

''We are anticipating such an instruction.''

Tony Abbott yesterday refused to apologise to Indonesia or provide any assurances that such activities would not occur again.

Opposition Leader Bill Shorten, who suggested Australia follow the lead of the US, today demanded to know what the government had done to repair relations with Indonesia in the past 24 hours.

Mr Abbott reiterated that he considered Indonesia "perhaps one of the very best friends that Australia has anywhere in the world".

But he said he would not over-react, and appeared to compare the situation to Australia's muted reaction to Indonesian admissions of spying on Australia in 2004.

"I do note that there have been allegations and even admissions in the past on this subject," he said.

"People didn't overreact then and I certainly don't propose to overreact now. My intention ...is to do everything to help to build and strengthen the relationship."

That was inevitable. So now if Abbott wants their cooperation he has to give a big apology for something everyone does and then give Indonesia an exceptionally favourable deal to them to get back to cooperation over boat people.

incorrect...the 100m is only the distance stipulates in the standards that we have to adhere to during installation, it's a recommendation.....i have sites in sydney for my clients running 10gig over cat6a for 150m easily.....cheacked it with a LAN network analyser.....we have a factory in blacktown running 1 gig over 450m with no problems....its running over cat6a 1091c systimax cabling

Indonesia officially downgrades its relationship with Australia
Foreign minister says decision was taken in accordance with Australia's 'response and attitude’ to spying claims

Indonesia has officially downgraded its relationship with Australia, according to a number of media reports.

Jakarta-based paper Media Indonesia reported that the foreign minister, Marty Natalegawa, said on Tuesday that bilateral relations had been officially downgraded.

"We will continue to downgrade our relationship with Australia," Natalagewa said. “Downgrading includes reviewing all bilateral co-operation between the two countries – not only information and intelligence exchange. It's no longer business as usual.

"We will continue to monitor and evaluate further steps in a measured manner."

AAP quoted Natalegawa as saying on Wednesday that “the downgrading in the level of the Indonesian-Australian relationship has been done.

"We have taken measured steps in accordance with their response and attitude."

On Tuesday the Indonesian president, Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, held high-level talks with a number of Indonesian ministers after voicing his outrage on Twitter at the phone-tapping revelations published by Guardian Australia and the ABC. He said he was not happy with the response so far offered from Canberra.

On Wednesday the president summoned the returned Indonesian ambassador to Australia, who arrived in Jakarta on Tuesday, for a palace meeting. Guardian Australia understands that the head of Indonesian intelligence, Marciano Norman, has also been summoned.

With enough strands of pure copper, insulation and enough electricity you can have as much bandwidth as you like. I'm sure what the point of this argument is?

Indonesia has been very careful in their language here.

Tony's cooked.

:-S The events happened under Rudd's tenure didn't they?

the later....desperate people

The events are not the issue. The response is.

I'm not sure why this is such a hard concept for people to grasp.

Untrue. Light travels faster than electrical current.

That doesn't explain how it's untrue, just that fibre optics are more efficient. No argument from me there.

With enough strands of pure copper, insulation and enough electricity you can have as much bandwidth as you like. I'm sure what the point of this argument is?

The argument is pointless and I'm done with it, because he keeps bringing up local area network quality ethernet cables as some kind of justification for a FTTN connection that doesn't use that sort of copper wiring anyway.

The argument is pointless and I'm done with it, because he keeps bringing up local area network quality ethernet cables as some kind of justification for a FTTN connection that doesn't use that sort of copper wiring anyway.

Queensland party crackdown out of control
By Chris Berg

But for all the absurdities of the anti-bikies legislation, the bill currently being considered by the Queensland parliament is probably worse.

The bogey-man in this bill is "out-of-control" parties. No doubt you can conjure up such a threat to public order in your mind. Hundreds of drunk teenagers spilling out on the street and damaging nearby property.

But according to the draft bill, a party is a gathering of twelve or more people. And it is considered out-of-control if three people at that party do something like be drunk in a public place, cause excessive noise, unreasonably block the path of a pedestrian, litter in a way that might cause harm to the environment, or use "indecent" language.

The punishment for holding a party that gets out-of-control? A $12,000 fine or a year's jail. In other words, a party host is punished for the actions of party guests. For good measure, the bill allows police to enter property uninvited without a warrant.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-19/berg-queensland-party-crackdown-out-of-control/5101438

incorrect...the 100m is only the distance stipulates in the standards that we have to adhere to during installation, it's a recommendation.....i have sites in sydney for my clients running 10gig over cat6a for 150m easily.....cheacked it with a LAN network analyser.....we have a factory in blacktown running 1 gig over 450m with no problems....its running over cat6a 1091c systimax cabling

The response is difficult and precarious. But how do you handle a scenario like that? Get on your knees and grovel for forgiveness? If he did that people would be calling him soft and too readily willing to take it up the arse from Indonesia. Point out that Indonesia were caught spying on us in the past? If he did that he'd be accused of potentially inflaming the scenario.

It's a bit of a no-win position to be in.