I think its unfair to give him a free pass, he didn't stop it from happening. For sure he would have known about it.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/state-politics/campbell-newman-sacks-qld-parliamentary-committee-overseeing-corruption-watchdog-cmc/story-e6frgczx-1226765767563

Indonesian protesters call for 'war with Australia' over phone-tapping scandal as Aussies warned of danger
JULIAN SWALLOW AND KOMANG ERVIANI ESCAPE NOVEMBER 21, 2013 8:00PM



Australian flags have been burnt at a protest in front of the Australian embassy in Jakarta. Picture: AAP Source: Supplied

VIOLENT protests erupted outside the Australian embassy in Jakarta with flags burnt and calls for war over the phone tapping scandal as the government issued a warning against travelling to Indonesia.

As the Indonesian spy crisis entered its fourth day, hundreds gathered in Jakarta carrying signs with the words "Merah" meaning "red" and sprayed red pain on the front wall of the embassy.

Relations between Jakarta and Canberra have plunged to dangerous levels following revelations Australian spies tapped the phones of the Indonesian president, his wife and ministers.

At the protests, one banner held by protesters read: "PPM, GM, FKPPI Ready!!! War with Australia.''


Protesters at the front of Australian Embassy in Jakarta, Indonesia. Picture: Tri Saputro Source: Supplied

Another banner was hung on the overpass near the compound, demanding an immediate apology from Australian prime minister Tony Abbott.

"If Abbott still not apologise to us, President could make more harsh action."

A protester from Pemuda Panca Marga, a group which represents the children of veterans, said Australian citizens in Indonesia would be targeted unless an apology was forthcoming.

"Within 24 hours, if the Australian government does not apologise, we're ready to attack this place. We're ready to (target) Australians."


Protesters burn a paper Australian flag in front of the Australian Embassy in Jakarta. Picture: AAP Source: AAP

The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade has upgraded its travel advice for Indonesia and warned Australians to monitor local media, avoid protests and maintain vigilance because of the crisis.
About 910,000 Australian visited Indonesia in 2012, making it the country's second most popular tourism destination after New Zealand.

DFAT says there are 4456 Australians registered with its Smartraveller service in Indonesia, with many more also in the country.


Protesters at the front of Australian Embassy in Jakarta, Indonesia. Picture: Tri Saputro Source: Supplied

The number of Australian visitors in Indonesia are also set to grow as Schoolies celebrations ramp up in Bali and the Christmas holidays begin next month.

Irene Leben has just returned from a week-long trip to Bali, during which the worst of the spying allegations came to light.

She said while the revelations were featured prominently on the front page of the Jakarta Post and other national newspapers, ordinary Balinese were more interested in welcoming Australians than denouncing them.

"When I arrived a week ago and picked up the Jakarta Post and saw there was this dispute, I thought 'oh'," she said.

"(But) Honestly, there were no problems about being Australian at all.

"I never had a comment by anyone, the service was always really good and people were really nice," she said.


Australian tourists Fiona Howard, Julian Tydd and Kyle Miller enjoy Kuta Beach, Bali. Source: Supplied

Kyle Miller, Julian Tydd and Fiona Howard, from Port Macquare, arrived in Bali two days ago.

Mr Tydd said he was concerned the spying revelations would damage relations between the two countries.

"Australia should apologise," he said.

"It is important to keep our relationship with Indonesia."

While potentially serious, Indonesia experts believe the current downturn in Indonesia-Australia relations is still far removed from the heated tensions that followed Australia's championing of East Timorese independence in 1999 or the fear sparked by the 2002 and 2005 Bali bombings.

Instead, they say tourists have little to fear from the increasing rift between the two governments.

"It certainly has made front-page headlines in Indonesia and it's certainly something that people are aware of, but I don't think there are any concerns for tourists on the ground," Dr Ross Tapsell from the Australian National University said.

"Tourism will operate as normal. People in Bali won't have any problems. Tourism is very important to the local economy.

"I'm certainly not worried about an overreaction by Indonesians," Dr Tapsell said.

Travel companies say they are experiencing normal demand for trips to Indonesia for this time of the year, while airline bookings remain strong.

Flight Centre general marketing manager Colin Bowman said Australians were "resilient travellers" who were not going to let a diplomatic slanging match put pay to their holidays.

there is no doubt fibre is faster, quite simple.

i am not against fibre, i am just pointing out there ARE copper cables capable of delivering 1 gig over distance...

that's all....over and out

C'mon guys, I think you're being a tad unreasonable. Do you want him to put his hand up and apologize for something done by the previous government? Something he wasn't responsible for? Hell, I'd rather a PM who stood up for something instead of Kevin who would probably have sucked Bangbang I'vegotayoyo off again.

Absolute hogwash. As the leader of this country it's his responsibility to accept culpability with regard to the actions of this nation regardless of the time. He has failed as a leader if he can't accept that out country has been caught with its pants down and make recompense for that.

Why? I doubt in the few weeks he has been in charge that he has organized the alleged tapping of their phones.

Besides, are you so naive as to think that other countries don't spy on Australia?

was gonna post something similar but couldn't be stuffed with the shit storm.

Just to add to your list we almost went to war with them in the 90s and Indonesia don't allow journalists free entry into West Papua.

But the inclined leftists on this forum want us to bend down and kiss their arse. This is global politics, not domestic issues, you play a completely different kind of game on this stage.

The guy calling for war must be a complete moron as it is a war they would lose in a matter of weeks, oh and only complete scum burn other countries flags.

Indonesia's former spymaster says both sides are exaggerating
November 22, 2013
Michael Bachelard
Indonesia correspondent for Fairfax Media


Indonesia's former top spymaster has accused his own President of exaggerating the problem of phone tapping, saying attempts by intelligence agencies to snoop on national leaders were "normal".
Former spy agency chief Abdulah Mahmud Hendropriyono has also punctured claims by Foreign Minister Marty Natalegawa that Indonesia would never tap the phones of Australian politicians, insisting it was a routine part of "black intelligence".
Despite this, Mr Hendropriyono has urged Prime Minister Tony Abbott to apologise to Indonesia and get back to the business of building good relations.
Mr Hendropriyono, the head of Badan Intelijen Negara (BIN) until 2004, has been thrust into the Australian political debate because of a TV interview he gave that year, in which he admitted to bugging Australian politicians. That interview has been widely used by Mr Abbott's supporters to defend his position.
In an interview with Fairfax Media, the former Indonesian army general amplified his 2004 comments, saying of Australia's attempts to listen to the conversations of President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, the first lady and their confidants: ''For intelligence, it's normal.''
He said Indonesia not only had the capacity to tap the phones of Australians, but that intelligence agencies also had a responsibility to try it, ''friend or foe''.
''We are fighting for life. We have to compete with many competitors so … we should collect as much as possible information,'' Mr Hendropriyono said.
Foreign Minister Natalegawa has explicitly denied that Indonesia listens to the phone calls of its ''friends'', saying that such behaviour was illegal, immoral and ''we don't do it''. President Yudhoyono made a similar point as he suspended all military
co-operation with Australia.
But Mr Hendropriyono contradicted both men. ''Indonesian intelligence is smart, so it's not revealed,'' he said.
Asked if Indonesia could listen to Mr Abbott's phone calls, he said: ''We have the ability to tap and to counter-tap.'' However, he also suggested that Australian counterintelligence would prevent this happening.
''There is no permanent friend, or there is no permanent foe. However, there is a permanent interest … our nation's interest … How can intelligence not spy [on] anybody? He must spy himself, spy his friends and spy his enemy. It's what he should do.''
He acknowledged the practice was illegal, but said the main fault leading to Australia's current embarrassment was that the information had leaked, and the politicians had become involved. Now that it was in the political arena, the politicians had overreacted, he said.
''[It is] overreaction from both sides … None has any deep enough understanding about intelligence,'' he said.
''Your Prime Minister also, I think, is exaggerating. He said he … doesn't want to apologise … You can say, yes, in the diplomatic view we are supposed to apologise.
''I hope that both our leaders, SBY as well as Tony Abbott, should not be too emotional … Please do not deteriorate [the relationship] because of a very small thing. This is a very technical thing.''
Mr Hendropriyono also revealed a previously hidden motive for giving the 2004 interview to the Nine Network's Sunday program.
''I have a very good relationship with my friends, the directors of ASIS and ASIO, and I would like them to be more alert, to raise the capability of their intelligence, and that is why I mentioned, 'I tapped you' … Then your intelligence gets more budget for counterintelligence. That is the way of intelligence techniques.''

Why? I doubt in the few weeks he has been in charge that he has organized the alleged tapping of their phones. Besides, are you so naive as to think that other countries don't spy on Australia?

Indonesia don't care which political party was in charge. All they care is that Australia was caught with its hand in the cookie jar. That's the be-all and end-all.

Do you see Barack Obama going "Nope, it was the other guy. Not interested" when drawn on the issue if the Iraq war? No.

Do you see David Cameron going "Nope, it was the other guy. Not interested" when asked about Hillsborough? No.

Why should we care what Indonesia thinks about us?

I'm not sure what your point is here. A football stadium collapsing is different to international politics and relations.

THE POINT IS THAT YOU STILL TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR EVENTS THAT HAPPENED UNDER A PREVIOUS LEADER! Fuck me.

You are a representative of the people, not a fucking despot!

But the government literally had no control over the stadium collapse.

So you're essentially saying that Abbott is responsible for the 2009 bushfire because Rudd/Gillard refused to?

Not the stadium collapse, the events that followed it. Go do some reading before you make a bigger fool of yourself.

We should be spying on Indonesia, it's Indonesia...not the U.K. or New Zealand.

Dale C. Copeland, "Economic Interdependence and War: A Theory of Trade Expectations," International Security, Vol. 20, no.4 (Spring 1996)

Does economic interdependence increase or decrease the probability of war among states? With the Cold War over, this question is taking on importance as trade levels between established powers such as the United States and Russia and emerging powers such as Japan, China, and Western Europe grow to new heights. In this article, I provide a new dynamic theory to help overcome some of the theoretical and empirical problems with current liberal and realist views on the question.

The prolonged debate between realists and liberals on the causes of war has been largely a debate about the relative salience of different causal variables. Realists stress such factors as relative power, while liberals focus on the absence or presence of collective security regimes and the pervasiveness of democratic communities.(1) Economic interdependence is the only factor that plays an important causal role in the thinking of both camps, and their perspectives are diametrically opposed.

Liberals argue that economic interdependence lowers the likelihood of war by increasing the value of trading over the alternative of aggression: interdependent states would rather trade than invade. As long as high levels of interdependence can be maintained, liberals assert, we have reason for optimism. Realists dismiss the liberal argument, arguing that high interdependence increases rather than decreases the probability of war. In anarchy, states must constantly worry about their security. Accordingly, interdependence - meaning mutual dependence and thus vulnerability - gives states an incentive to initiate war, if only to ensure continued access to necessary materials and goods.

The unsatisfactory nature of both liberal and realist theories is shown by their difficulties in explaining the run-ups to the two World Wars. The period up to World War I exposes a glaring anomaly for liberal theory: the European powers had reached unprecedented levels of trade, yet that did not prevent them from going to war. Realists certainly have the correlation right - the war was preceded by high interdependence - but trade levels had been high for the previous thirty years; hence, even if interdependence was a necessary condition for the war, it was not sufficient.

At first glance, the period from 1920 to 1940 seems to support liberalism over realism. In the 1920s, interdependence was high, and the world was essentially peaceful; in the 1930s, as entrenched protectionism caused interdependence to fall, international tension rose to the point of world war. Yet the two most aggressive states in the system during the 1930s, Germany and Japan, were also the most highly dependent despite their efforts towards autarchy, relying on other states, including other great powers, for critical raw materials. Realism thus seems correct in arguing that high dependence may lead to conflict, as states use war to ensure access to vital goods. Realism's problem with the interwar era, however, is that Germany and Japan had been even more dependent in the 1920s, yet they sought war only in the late 1930s when their dependence, although still significant, had fallen.


Continue reading here....

https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/copeland.htm

by apologising you admit to being guilty....so no apology....

the contempt, gall and audacity that these people had towards Australians was blood curdling

What do you mean admit to being guilty? It's a bit late for the 'not guilty' plea.
correct me if i am wrong, but so far there is only the accusation??, but i'm sure it's true
There's no doubt at all that Australia was tapping Indonesia's high ranking politicians' phones.

The way some Australians present themselves overseas, combined with the international community's opinion on Abbott explains that pretty quickly.

correct me if i am wrong, but so far there is only the accusation??, but i'm sure it's true

sorry but having had an office in singapore and travelled throughout asia, this is a long standing distain for caucasions.......

It was detailed in official documents leaked by Edward Snowden. There's no real plausible deniability.

In my time in Singapore I found the people to be friendly, polite and very helpful regardless of ethnicity. Unless you were a douche to them.

Edited by afromanGT: 23/11/2013 03:45:50 PM

Ok so I wouldnt really say we got caught, more like we got our backs stabbed by Edward Snowden and totally fucked us over big time.

here's my message to Americas NSA: Fuck you for letting this happen. Because of you lot for not doing your jobs and preventing this from happening, Australias friendship with indonesia is at risk. Good job seppos