Dare I say then with no small amount of irony that the last flare thrown at Clarendon St may have been by Melbourne Victory supporters, that fateful night? I remember it well.

Heart are not going to limit their potential growth to a specific corridor until Victory do the same... otherwise you limit your ability to outgrow your competition.

Graphs and population charts are all wonderful but they are meaningless in this State because Victory chose to take the form of the big V - a state symbol while also using state colours. They had no competition so positioned themselves as the club for all Victoria... any club who came second was always going to struggle after this because everywhere else in Melbourne is still part of Victoria so a Geographic identity would prove foolish.

Heart has to rely on results and community engagement to feed one another... In addition to the many clinics and community engagement activities Heart have also been quite innovative in a footballing front also - particularly in the form of the Futsal team, their NYL team playing State League this year as well as Coach the Coach sessions.

The crowd increases are modest because the results have been modest... If Heart's in field performances had been higher a lit more of those (nominally Heart fans - who mainly show up for Derbies) would turn up more readily. It has to work in combination because community engement in and of itself is not enough and neither is winning if noone has a connection to it. You might think it's a dangerous tactic to run but just consider this if Victory had not won a title in season 2 or 4 they would not have had the growth they achieved.

:shock: What time line are we working on here?

Recheck the data I posted - it doesn't tell a lie.

You couldn't miss the octopuis stand. It was written in big letters.
Chestnuts? You mean pumpkin seeds. I remember well the little old man in a grey wrinkled suit selling them. Never missed a beat.

It refers to growth not total fanbase... ie for every say 3 new Victory fans Heart would aim to attract 4 or 5 (figures are simply for demonstration I don't know what projections the club are actually working towards). In anycase this is what I refer to as outgrowing your competition. If Heart were to be an eastern suburbs (or wherever) they would limit their ability to do this... furthermore any new fans to the game outside of the east (or whereever) would naturally gravitate to the Victory. Anyway it's a stupid idea because Melbourne is not like Sydney.

No I mean Chestnuts!

FYI The pumpkin seed guy passed away just recently. The one who also sold the Greek Soccer papers and porno's.

And then how will that work out for a third Melbourne club? Will they be another generic team?

I never felt Victory represented me and I don't feel a specific attachment to east/west/noth/south (though I live east abd work inthe city). I'm an AFL fan and love the big V but that holds not cache for me either. I didn't change on account of a particular playing style or because Merrick/Muscat did/said this (though Muscat's behaviour after I'd made the fecision to join Heart only helped reaffirm my decision) - I changed because Victory didn't provide a means for me to engage with them. Yhey appeared (to me) a closed shop. They went about business their own way and didn't make any attempt (in my expeirnece - and community engagement in a footballing sense is all about the experience not where you live) to make me feel part of the club. Heart do this for me. I feel part of their success and a really feel their defeats - I'm not saying that a Victory fan experiences their wins/losses any differently but Heart are determined to create that connection with the people they engage. It takes time.

Back tot he AFL growth stats. That is less and less meaningless as time passes - if you/your family grew up in Firzroy (as mine did) then that's who you supported with the expansion of the city people don't have the same relationship to the club and its location but to the experiences they have as a follower of that club (after all they all play from the same stadiums now). Heart don't need a location to base themselves around they need people to be 'engaged' by the club in a meaningful way so that when they see the results they care enough to go to the next match. When they attend they care about the result. When they win they celebrate and when they lose they actually feel the loss - not feel ambivelent about the club and it's results. This is what the community engaement angle is all about - creating that connection! Like I said - I never felt that with Victory.

As far as I see it:
- Victory have Victoria's colours and symbol in the big "V"
- Heart have Melbourne's colours in the Red & White as per the City of Melbourne Flag and the City of Melbourne Coat of Arms, i.e. a red cross - which is the cross of St. George, the patron saint of England - the same red cross found on the English flag ;)

The Victory of Victoria
The Heart of Melbourne

There's your point of difference!

Edited by red_or_dead: 13/2/2013 10:49:56 AM

I dont care!

Don't tell us, tell Scott Munn and Peter Sidwell they are the ones with an identity crisis.

It's a nice idea - pity Heart haven't tried it. Would enjoy seeing the Victory fans ripping into the idea that MELBOURNE Victory isn't representative of Melbourne.

Also, the red and white being part of the George Cross... Excellent... So now we have a Scottish team and an English team to choose from. Diversity is where its at. ;)

As I said Kriss, "some" was exhibited until the end of the NSL not necessarily last year. You want to forget all of Hellas' past? Do you think Hellas will be judged by one year alone? In context of my comments, I'll respond to you in red.





Edited by paulc: 13/2/2013 11:21:36 AM

I and many others do care because we would like the game to grow, such that there will be at least 24 and ideally 32 teams, with a 1st and a 2nd division. The scenario you have described pretty much limits Melbourne to two clubs, and will stymie the ambition of having a strong two-tiered league.

paulc's scaremongering borders on xenophobia, and as it isn't really relevant at all in the post-NSL era doesn't contribute to the discussion. It's a shame the mods (ie. not Benjamin) won't do anything about it.

Errr...when did I say that Victory isn't representative of Melbourne??? If what I learned at school is correct, Melbourne is the capital of Victoria, hence the Victory are also representative of Melbourne. Heart will just focus on Melbourne metropolitan area :)

Victory can have Morwell!! lol

Ok, so it's a little short sighted of me to say I don't care - but this whole thread is predicated on short-sightedness!!!

Attempts to close a bonafide discussion unless its under your terms is laughable and piss poor.

There are very good reasons why SM Hellas should not be allowed to be represented in the A-League let alone at the demise of Heart.

Many of these issues have been made public before, reported on and commented by many others on forums. It's one of the main issues that FFA have a strict criteria. It's justified.

In fact there's been calls to lock this thread but until it remains open I shall contribute to balance the SM Hellas propaganda cheered on by a mod and pimple faced kids that go by what their Greek old man tell them.

[/quote]

I never felt Victory represented me and I don't feel a specific attachment to east/west/noth/south (though I live east abd work inthe city). I'm an AFL fan and love the big V but that holds not cache for me either. I didn't change on account of a particular playing style or because Merrick/Muscat did/said this (though Muscat's behaviour after I'd made the fecision to join Heart only helped reaffirm my decision) - I changed because Victory didn't provide a means for me to engage with them. Yhey appeared (to me) a closed shop. They went about business their own way and didn't make any attempt (in my expeirnece - and community engagement in a footballing sense is all about the experience not where you live) to make me feel part of the club. Heart do this for me. I feel part of their success and a really feel their defeats - I'm not saying that a Victory fan experiences their wins/losses any differently but Heart are determined to create that connection with the people they engage. It takes time.

That's great that you feel a connection, but the numbers overall are pretty bad. I know it's still a young club but the Melbourne market is big and it needs to do much better soon - how long will the investors hang on for?

Back tot he AFL growth stats. That is less and less meaningless as time passes - if you/your family grew up in Firzroy (as mine did) then that's who you supported with the expansion of the city people don't have the same relationship to the club and its location but to the experiences they have as a follower of that club (after all they all play from the same stadiums now). Heart don't need a location to base themselves around they need people to be 'engaged' by the club in a meaningful way so that when they see the results they care enough to go to the next match. When they attend they care about the result. When they win they celebrate and when they lose they actually feel the loss - not feel ambivelent about the club and it's results. This is what the community engaement angle is all about - creating that connection! Like I said - I never felt that with Victory.

I understand that AFL club support is spread out across Melbourne for each team now, but the rivalry was established when there was clearer geographical segmentation. There is no way you could create ten new generic clubs from scratch today.

[/quote]

Agree numbers are low... but they are improving (as a trend - minus debies). Heart have a definite long term plan and I'm pretty sure Sidwell (and others) would be aware of how it's tracking. If you do hold such concerns, aside from becoming a 'zonal' club what else for you think they should do?

I understand where you are coming from but people (in Melb in 2013 as opposed to 1913) don't relate to their location as much as Syd-West Syd. The closest thing to a geographic rivalry is north and south of the river (and this is so specific and inner city that it makes no sense to base a footballing rivalry around it - and anyway I can't see Victory choosing one over the other). Heart already has an established rivalry - it's 9 games in and the passion is no less intense than some other falsified geographic rivalry intended just to make room for other teams in the future. If other teams want to enter the league in the future they may well learn from Heart's successes and failures (and Victory's for that matter) but to worry about some future clubs sustainability by jeopardising a current club is just silly.

Edited by quichefc: 13/2/2013 11:43:33 AM

Oh, the xenophobe is playing the freedom of speech card. Cry me a river. What's piss poor is your continual raising of problems of the past that are simply not relevant in 2013. I'll be laughing loud when the first team that has mono-ethnic roots is promoted via the new promotion/relegation system. It will happen.

The discussion is good, your contribution is what's piss poor.

From your pro Greek perspective and brown nosing efforts, I think I understand.

lol. More evidence for the prosecution.

Your the one pushing for Hellas being in the A-League. I have my club that represents and is followed by - all communities. :lol:

Hear that Arthur and Chris... Pimple faced kids... He's nailed you guys now. His insight is astounding. :lol:

I hear ya Benjamin. There's only those two that a pro Hellas. Can't be any other way. So clever, sure your name is not Sherlock? :lol:

relax paulc

i find your agenda amusing

If my counterbalancing comments is deemed to be an agenda, then it's an agenda. It pales in comparison to your agenda and many others like you. And I am totally relaxed about it ;)

What is your most memorable game you watched Hellas play?

Mine was against Marconi when Roberto Vieri played. Massive crowd.

Edited by paulc: 13/2/2013 12:38:40 PM

You keep constantly pointing out the club hasn't changed at all. What I'm trying to show you is that it has, and all you can bring up is things from the NSL, and mainly the same things again and again.

You won't recognise any positive change the club makes. And I honestly want to know what your problem with the club is?