In Search of Perfection: National Premier League Victoria (Part 1)A damn great critique


In Search of Perfection: National Premier League Victoria (Part 1)A...

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Arthur
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One of the best if not the best damn critiques of the NPLV captures some of the key issues facing clubs in Victoria and Australia.

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In Search of Perfection: National Premier League Victoria (Part 1)
Posted by editor
http://leopoldmethod.com.au/in-search-of-perfection-p1/

Why Now?

What’s the stink in Victoria? As news broke at the end of May that Melbourne Knights and Green Gully would not apply for the proposed National Premier League (NPL), cracks were beginning to show in Football Federation Victoria’s (FFV) grand plans. Over the following few days, Hume, Altona Magic, Bentleigh Greens and Cairnlea (Port Melbourne is considering not to submit an application) all joined the Knights and Green Gully in deciding not to apply for the competition, causing the governing body significant headaches and embarrassment. The FFV website proclaims that it is “gaining momentum”, having received 44 “expressions of interest” from clubs around the state. However, with some of the strongest clubs deciding to take their business elsewhere, fans around the country are more worried than excited by developments down south. Cataclysmic talk of breakaway leagues is being bandied about, and the whole episode has turned into a public relations disaster for the FFV.

The interested parties have submitted their applications, and the disgruntled have furiously typed up their press releases, but confusion reigns over why the house seems to be falling in. With the FFV standing firm on one side and the clubs digging in on the other, opinions are polarised and speculation is rife as to the what, where, how and why. The fact is, there are several issues at play in this stand-off, some more important than others.With the National Premier League supposedly a panacea for Australia’s player development issues, and a ‘second tier’ for the A-League, these problems need to be explained and analysed for the good of the game. While the immediate problem centres around Victoria, they have implications for clubs, players and fans around the country.

Versions of the National Premier League have been rolled out in New South Wales, ACT, Tasmania and Queensland, with varying degrees of success. The model is designed to synchronise and standardise player pathways and development around the country, in order to resolve some of the fractures in our game. The FFA press release states that the NPL will:

Create consistency across the Member Federation top leagues across Australia;
Recognise the role that State league clubs are playing to develop players, and showcase local talent;
Raise overall standards in club management;
Improve the financial and commercial position of state leagues and clubs.
Since the inception of the A-League in 2005, the disconnect between the national league, the state leagues and the grassroots have been cause for plenty of anger and disenchantment among football fans. However, the FFA have a historic opportunity to bring the states into line with the national plan. There has even been talk of promotion and relegation as a future prospect, although the criteria for promotion into the A-League is still not clearly specified. Still, that carrot has been dangled in front of the state league sides, in particular the National Soccer League clubs who have been left out in the cold for so many years.

http://leopoldmethod.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/NCR.png

The NPL is a product of the FFA National Competitions Review (NCR), which was completed in 2012. Essentially, the NCR addressed issues of consistency in the delivery of football across the country, increase the level of ‘elite’ football being played, and fill some of the gaps in youth development. For too long, the development of Australian youth has relied on clubs, rather than an overarching strategy from the top. In turn, this has meant that Australian kids are being taught how to play football in a fairly arbitrary way. There has been no central ideology and vision, causing uneven development around the country.

It all seems fair enough, then, that the governing bodies at a state and national level should come together in a systematic way. However, the devil is in the detail. In other states, not least New South Wales, the rollout of the NPL has been massaged to fit particular environments, but in Victoria the governing body has taken a more hardline approach with clubs, leaving many fans and club administrators angry at the lack of dialogue. Despite the fact that Victoria was given an extra year to get up to speed with the national plan, it seems little has been done to explain the process to clubs, and the NPLV now looks to be going ahead without some of the strongest and most historic clubs in the state. Leopold Method has identified three major areas of concern, which are inevitably intertwined. The first is cost, the second control and the third trust.

Issue 1: Costs.

Already, football is an extremely expensive game to play. Anybody who is involved in the game faces the annual heartache of having to fork out their hard-earned just for the privilege of their weekly kick-about. Still, most clubs do it tough, and for those wishing to participate in the NPLV, the new competition will only increase their costs, with little room to raise their own revenue from the usual sources. Firstly, the licence fee for the NPLV is set at $50,000 per annum, with the applicant needing to prove that it can pay the fee detailed in three year budget forecasts. Secondly, the FFV will cap fees on registrations at $1700 plus GST per player per season, with no room given to clubs for ‘add-ons’ such as extra clinics or private sessions. At present, to play for one of the top clubs in the state costs anywhere between $400 and $3,200 per season. But, even if clubs participating at the elite level increase their fees to the maximum amount, it is believed that they are still set to lose significant amounts of money on operational costs. Anthony Siokos raised this concern around this time last year, when the NCR was first released:

“How much will it (the NPL) cost? When will this structure be delivered? Are all of the States and Territories in agreement with the NCR, practically not tentatively or in theory? Most importantly, what resources are required to ensure youth development outcomes equate to quality football(ers) across the country?

It seems that twelve months on, many of these questions remain unanswered and unexplained. One of the central reforms, and also the main costs, is in the upskilling of Australian coaches. The FFA rightly wants to create a situation whereby the ‘elite’ clubs have the highest quality coaching possible. The FFV has set out a phased plan for the next four years, which clubs must meet to fulfill their obligations. Coaches will need to have obtained certain licenses to maintain their position. For example, a club technical director must hold a ‘B’ licence for 2014-15, but by 2016-17 they must hold a new A-Licence or an old A-Licence with a “refresher certificate.” At the other end of the spectrum, an Under 18′s coach must progress from a Senior Licence to a new ‘B’ Licence over the same period of time. It’s a good plan, and one that most clubs seem to broadly agree upon. However, all this education costs money, and as there are precious few coaches that currently meet the criteria, it creates a market for the coaches to charge relatively high rates for their services.

“The fees are not going to be enough to pay the coaches” Green Gully General Manager Raymond Mamo told Leopold Method,

“We support the principle of coaching accreditation, but what is the cost to the club per week? Nobody knows. It’s an astronomical amount of money to be part of the ‘elite. It’s simply not viable for us to be entering into the competition.”

Considering the lack of manpower on the ground, it stands to reason that market forces will inevitably push up the wages of coaches. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing, as full time coaches will likely produce better outcomes. However, where will that extra revenue come from? The FFV has pushed the cost of development down the chain to the clubs. In the search of perfection, the NPL model is designed to reduce player wages at a state level, however its consequence is higher costs in employing accredited coaches (who have paid to get themselves accredited) and operational costs.

The FFA and the state bodies have had issues implementing the National Curriculum and the NCR due to their lack of understanding of club economics, particularly in the area of revenue generation. At all levels of the game, the primary source of revenue is from registration fees and sponsorship. Unlike in NSW, FFV is not allowing any NPLV clubs to have amateur component (sub-junior teams), and by doing so there is a risk that they will generate less revenue from registrations, along with their ability to obtain larger sponsorship dollars. Moreover, less players in clubs means less money from other revenue raisers such as fundraising and canteen sales. Alternatively, the FFV could look to obtain their own large sponsors for the NPLV, and then split the revenue across the clubs to be used to offset their player development costs. This could also drive down registration fees.

Many clubs are worried that they will have to raise their registration fees enormously to meet costs. Leopold Method also spoke to Melbourne Knights committee member Pave Jusup, who was not happy with the situation facing his club:
“We expect costs to go up for the club and for parents. The ‘cap’ in registration fees is actually being used as a cost recovery mechanism. We are from an under-privileged area in Melbourne, and some of our players may be lost to the game if the cost to play goes up under the proposed scheme. We think that football should be fully accessible to all, regardless of socio-economic position.”

It’s an important point. The fact is, both Green Gully and Melbourne Knights do plenty of social work in their area to ensure that kids of all ages, abilities and backgrounds are able to enjoy football. The FFV has stated that it expects clubs to continue these programs for disadvantaged kids, but have stopped short of providing them any assistance to do so. Raising fees to the cap level may help recover some costs, but it leaves nobody happy. The astronomical increases in fees goes against club ethos, and even then, it will not be enough for the club to stay out of the red.

These concerns were reflected in the Melbourne Knights press release, which is accessible from the club website,

“Members were concerned that the club would be forced to charge excessive fees in order to meet exorbitant operational costs, thus making the game or pathway accessible to only those who could afford it. Members questioned the enormous financial strain imposed upon clubs with little to no support from any of the country’s football governing bodies.”

The fact is, the FFV have given clubs like Melbourne Knights and Green Gully little room to move. Point 12 of Section 2 states that clubs “may only recruit players who are registered to play with a community club located within the geographical boundaries of the zone in which the Applicant is located.” But what happens if a player moves from one area to another mid-season? Does that mean they will have to sit out for the remainder of the season? How is that good for their development? And what if a talented player can’t find their way into an elite level club in their particular area? Are they simply going to be consigned to the community leagues? In an ideal world, every Australian would have the finances to play ‘elite’ level football. But in the real world, there are rich areas and there are poorer areas. Sunshine, in Melbourne’s west, is not known for it’s affluence. Therefore, instead of continuing to provide affordable pathways for it’s community, clubs like Melbourne Knights will only be able to provide for those who can afford it. Presumably, the FFA want their NPL teams to be an integral part of their communities, in order for them to properly form the so-called ‘B’ League. Immediately raising fees by some 200% in an area like Sunshine is hardly a good way to start this process.

Issue 2: Control.

On June 1, Melbourne Knights celebrated their sixty year anniversary with a gala event at the Croatian club in Footscray. From the very beginning, the club has struggled against authorities to maintain their independence. Battles have been fought over symbols, names and control of the board of directors. Rightly or wrongly, the club has been a centrepiece of the Croatian community in Melbourne, and provided tangible pathways for players around the country. Having produced generations of Socceroos, the club rightly feels as if they have the runs on the board when it comes to developing Australian talent and creating a stable club culture. While the NPLV is supposed to raise that level, it’s a delicate proposition to put forward to proud clubs like these. Lecturing clubs on finances and development was never going to be welcomed, not least because the state and national federations have been the most wasteful and incompetent over the past few decades. Indeed, the FFV last year announced a deficit of just under $783,000, although it promises us that this was just a “one off”.

http://leopoldmethod.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/FFV-Financials.png


The issue of who controls the delivery of football has plagued our game for decades. The tension between club administrators and the state and national federations is one that seemingly never ends. The NPLV model is specifically designed for uniformity and consistency in order for the player pathways to be less fragmented. Unsurprisingly, clubs are not happy at being forced to meet stricter guidelines with regards to coaching, grounds, recruitment and intellectual property rights. Inevitably, this infringes upon their autonomy, and places them at the mercy of change from the top. In many ways, this is exactly the point of the whole program. The FFA and the states want to retain control of delivery, and therefore have legislated certain standards.

However, this kind of dogmatism supposes a tabula rasa where there is a Jackson Pollock. Most of these clubs have survived against all odds, and are generally run on the smell of an oily rag, driven by a small but passionate group of members, sponsors and fans. According to Pave Jusup from Melbourne Knights, this is a “power grab” by the FFV. “It comes from an ideological point of view that the clubs are inept” Jusup told Leopold Method. Raymond Mamo agrees, “the FFV should listen to the clubs” he says. You can hear the frustration and disappointment in his voice. The paternalistic attitude of the governing body is clearly a source of great resentment among many clubmen. Green Gully, for example, has a sound track record when it comes to financial stability and player welfare. They pay their players on time, into a preferred bank account, with superannuation. They deal appropriately with player agents. Their financial records are usually impeccable.

But it’s not just the clubs that have a problem with the FFV plans. City councils around Victoria are also worried about the use of public facilities. While many clubs own their own grounds, clubs like Green Gully, Bentleigh Greens and Hume City play on council grounds, which are open to everybody. Brimbank City Council, which leases Green Gully Reserve, is worried about the term ‘elite.’ Put simply, councils cannot be seen to be giving exclusive access to public property. Again, it is a situation where the FFV is letting it’s vision get in the way of realistic goals. In an article published by Donald Sutherland at MFootball, Hume City’s Club Communications Manager Ezel Hikmet said:

“Our clubs stance is that our facility is a community facility that needs to be available for everyone not just the ELITE. Our stance is in accordance with Hume City Council and their position on the NPL.”

Altona Magic, in the south-west of Melbourne, have other problems regarding grounds. Their home ground, Paisley Park, is unlikely to be up to scratch for the NPLV criteria. However, upgrading the stadium to meet this criteria costs money, which they have little of. Meanwhile, other second tier clubs like Preston Lions have stated that they are not going to be applying, perhaps because they are still heavily indebted to the tax office. It’s illustrative of the mess the FFV finds itself in. Do they know their constituents?

The FFV’s participation requirements are also problematic. Point 5 of Section 3 states that once an application is processed, the FFV possesses the intellectual property rights to clubs. In other words, clubs sign away their ‘brand’ to the governing body. This means that the FFV can, theoretically, produce and sell merchandise which trades upon the logos, colours and names of clubs, with no guarantee of remuneration. Meanwhile, Point 2 of Section 2 states that clubs must submit an appropriate name, as well as three alternatives. Unsurprisingly, names cannot:

“Make reference to any ethnic name, nickname or slogan or any abbreviation thereof, sponsor or business or any word or words which in the reasonable opinion of FFV represents only one gender… make reference to a foreign country, place or state… contain any reference direct or indirect to any organisation that is associated or synonymous with any political racial or religious organisation.”

http://leopoldmethod.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/IP.png


While it is not the opinion of this column that all clubs should revert back to names like Ajax, Croatia and Hellas, it is worth wondering why this is still an issue in football at all. What is a “reasonable opinion of FFV”, and what exactly constitutes a reference to a foreign country or slogan? When you combine this with the anxiety over signing away intellectual property rights, FFV have created an issue where there needn’t be one. In all seriousness, the most important issues surrounding the implementation of the NPLV are player development and sustainable financial planning. Why dig up old symbolic grievances? There is no conspiracy here, but if it’s in the fine print, clubs have a right to be worried.

About Joe Gorman   


Edited by Arthur: 12/6/2013 08:04:42 AM

Edited by Arthur: 12/6/2013 08:13:31 AM
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Didn'treadlol.gif

Also move to state league
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Is there a tldr summary of this?
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notorganic wrote:
Is there a tldr summary of this?


yes please
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tbitm wrote:
Didn'treadlol.gif

Also move to state league


Yeah sorry thought I did put it in SL's
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Moved to State League because no follower of the game in Australia would actually want to know about elite player development pathways. ;)
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If they do not want to join fine.If they want to start a breakaway league do it. Why not just do it and shut up about it. When they were locked out of the A league many of their supporters bagged the league and said they could not do with out them 8 years on and everything is going ok. If SMH FC does not want to join the NPL dont. It will go on with out them.Maybe the two groups are incompatible and should just go about their business independently.](*,) ](*,) ](*,)

Edited by krones3: 12/6/2013 04:30:43 AM
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krones3 wrote:
If they do not want to join fine.If they want to start a breakaway league do it. Why not just do it and shut up about it. When they were locked out of the A league many of their supporters bagged the league and said they could not do with out them 8 years on and everything is going ok. If SMH FC does not want to join the NPL dont. It will go on with out them.Maybe the two groups are incompatible and should just go about their business independently.](*,) ](*,) ](*,)

Edited by krones3: 12/6/2013 04:30:43 AM


Jesus Christ. These clubs are the reason this game is even here.


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krones3 wrote:
If they do not want to join fine.If they want to start a breakaway league do it. Why not just do it and shut up about it. When they were locked out of the A league many of their supporters bagged the league and said they could not do with out them 8 years on and everything is going ok. If SMH FC does not want to join the NPL dont. It will go on with out them.Maybe the two groups are incompatible and should just go about their business independently.](*,) ](*,) ](*,)

Edited by krones3: 12/6/2013 04:30:43 AM


Why single out SMFC - one of the few teams that has committed to the NPL?
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They deride a cap on registrations, then later complain that the cap is too high and will price out juniors.

And are they really willing to sit out over seemingly minor issues like
Quote:
Point 12 of Section 2 states that clubs “may only recruit players who are registered to play with a community club located within the geographical boundaries of the zone in which the Applicant is located.” ...
and
Quote:
Point 2 of Section 2 states that clubs must submit an appropriate name...


Certainly there are some major issues that need to be addressed, but for all of these clubs to not apply seems rather backwards to me. To choose not to apply because their ground may be not up to scratch, or not have full use of it seems like they have admitted failure and are not keen to resolve the issues, instead would rather pass the blame onto the FFV.
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Benchwarmer wrote:
They deride a cap on registrations, then later complain that the cap is too high and will price out juniors.

The issue with registrations is that the FFV are saying "you MUST provide this" which will cost a certain amount, then they are saying "you CAN'T charge this much". It's an impossible scenario.

And are they really willing to sit out over seemingly minor issues like
Quote:
Point 12 of Section 2 states that clubs “may only recruit players who are registered to play with a community club located within the geographical boundaries of the zone in which the Applicant is located.” ...


They want the freedom to sign any player that is willing to travel to them. Why should players be limited to where they can play, or clubs be limited to who they can sign, based on a geographical determination?

and [quote]Point 2 of Section 2 states that clubs must submit an appropriate name.../quote]

Who defines 'appropriate'?

Certainly there are some major issues that need to be addressed, but for all of these clubs to not apply seems rather backwards to me. To choose not to apply because their ground may be not up to scratch, or not have full use of it seems like they have admitted failure and are not keen to resolve the issues, instead would rather pass the blame onto the FFV.


As I understand it, several clubs have decided not to enter because:
(a) there are numerous points included that they don't believe are of benefit to the game
(b) there are numerous points included that they don't believe are of benefit to their club
(c) the FFV have offered no hope to them that they are open to discussion on these points
(d) going any further in the process will cost the clubs money in preparation costs

You could suggest that the clubs are admitting defeat - or alternatively you could ask what you yourself would do if you put in the same position.

Imagine if you had a job - and the boss told you that you could pay to submit an application for a new job - that would probably pay less and most likely have worse working conditions, and that the terms of the new job were non-negotiable... Would you apply?

Edited by Benjamin: 12/6/2013 05:12:45 PM
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The costs argument is not really one i agree with. Having gone through this process in NSW, and currently having to pay C-Licence coaches in all our youth squads, the costs has not really gone up by much. If anything, the benefit is greater, as we're charging more for rego fees than in previous years, and that's something across the board. I think its important that every coach has the appropriate accreditation. Australia is a country who has one of the smallest accredited coach to registered players ratio in the world, and its something we're just catching on to. the accreditation will hopefully move all kids and grown ups in to playing the same, or similar type of football that will one day be recognised as the australian way.

The only issue we had with costs here was that no club could be affiliated with an academy, saying that the structure that fnsw was implementing would provide sufficient coaching to the kids. 3 nights a week and game day for youth is probably enough i think. We've had situations in previous seasons where clubs take the rego fee then force their kids to join academies and go on trips at additional costs, and thankfully something is being done about this. Clubs here have however been allowed to maintain their juniors/association links, which plays a part with regards to costs, as they bumo up canteen and fundraising revenue, however, most clubs would struggle to charge association fees above what others in the association are charging, that would be suicide.

The zonal thing here isn't an issue as most zones here generally have more than one club thats satifactory. So i guess it'll depend how flexible the zones are.
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Benjamin wrote:
krones3 wrote:
If they do not want to join fine.If they want to start a breakaway league do it. Why not just do it and shut up about it. When they were locked out of the A league many of their supporters bagged the league and said they could not do with out them 8 years on and everything is going ok. If SMH FC does not want to join the NPL dont. It will go on with out them.Maybe the two groups are incompatible and should just go about their business independently.](*,) ](*,) ](*,)

Edited by krones3: 12/6/2013 04:30:43 AM


Why single out SMFC - one of the few teams that has committed to the NPL?

Only because as i said "their supporters bagged the A league and said they could not do with out them 8 years on and everything is going ok." If SMH FC wants to join the NPL, all good if not all good, they can do what ever they want to do.
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Benjamin wrote:
Benchwarmer wrote:
They deride a cap on registrations, then later complain that the cap is too high and will price out juniors.

The issue with registrations is that the FFV are saying "you MUST provide this" which will cost a certain amount, then they are saying "you CAN'T charge this much". It's an impossible scenario.

And are they really willing to sit out over seemingly minor issues like
Quote:
Point 12 of Section 2 states that clubs “may only recruit players who are registered to play with a community club located within the geographical boundaries of the zone in which the Applicant is located.” ...


They want the freedom to sign any player that is willing to travel to them. Why should players be limited to where they can play, or clubs be limited to who they can sign, based on a geographical determination?

and [quote]Point 2 of Section 2 states that clubs must submit an appropriate name.../quote]

Who defines 'appropriate'?

Certainly there are some major issues that need to be addressed, but for all of these clubs to not apply seems rather backwards to me. To choose not to apply because their ground may be not up to scratch, or not have full use of it seems like they have admitted failure and are not keen to resolve the issues, instead would rather pass the blame onto the FFV.


As I understand it, several clubs have decided not to enter because:
(a) there are numerous points included that they don't believe are of benefit to the game
(b) there are numerous points included that they don't believe are of benefit to their club
(c) the FFV have offered no hope to them that they are open to discussion on these points
(d) going any further in the process will cost the clubs money in preparation costs

You could suggest that the clubs are admitting defeat - or alternatively you could ask what you yourself would do if you put in the same position.

Imagine if you had a job - and the boss told you that you could pay to submit an application for a new job - that would probably pay less and most likely have worse working conditions, and that the terms of the new job were non-negotiable... Would you apply?

Edited by Benjamin: 12/6/2013 05:12:45 PM


What is the best thing for the game and the kids?
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As for costs It is about time The FFA helped with Zones trying o obtain an income. Im not asking for money just planing help a model and possible legal support and Financial advice.The AFL and NRL do.

Edited by krones3: 12/6/2013 06:45:34 PM
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11.mvfc.11 wrote:
Benjamin wrote:
krones3 wrote:
If they do not want to join fine.If they want to start a breakaway league do it. Why not just do it and shut up about it. When they were locked out of the A league many of their supporters bagged the league and said they could not do with out them 8 years on and everything is going ok. If SMH FC does not want to join the NPL dont. It will go on with out them.Maybe the two groups are incompatible and should just go about their business independently.](*,) ](*,) ](*,)

Edited by krones3: 12/6/2013 04:30:43 AM


Why single out SMFC - one of the few teams that has committed to the NPL?
Because the the bigots of this game are exactly that; concurrently ignorant and uneducated.


I think not i played for a Victorian cultural club during the 70/80s and am very proud of the football philosophy and life long love of football they gave me. try to pass that on today.But the club is no more and went broke, i would not like to see this happen again.


"By the 1980s the club had fallen on hard times and in 1983 the club ceased to exist"

Edited by krones3: 12/6/2013 06:52:15 PM
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krones3 wrote:
11.mvfc.11 wrote:
Benjamin wrote:
krones3 wrote:
If they do not want to join fine.If they want to start a breakaway league do it. Why not just do it and shut up about it. When they were locked out of the A league many of their supporters bagged the league and said they could not do with out them 8 years on and everything is going ok. If SMH FC does not want to join the NPL dont. It will go on with out them.Maybe the two groups are incompatible and should just go about their business independently.](*,) ](*,) ](*,)

Edited by krones3: 12/6/2013 04:30:43 AM


Why single out SMFC - one of the few teams that has committed to the NPL?
Because the the bigots of this game are exactly that; concurrently ignorant and uneducated.


I think not i played for a Victorian cultural club during the 70/80s and am very proud of the football philosophy and life long love of football they gave me. try to pass that on today.But the club is no more and went broke, i would not like to see this happen again.


"By the 1980s the club had fallen on hard times and in 1983 the club ceased to exist"

Edited by krones3: 12/6/2013 06:52:15 PM



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krones3 wrote:
11.mvfc.11 wrote:
Benjamin wrote:
krones3 wrote:
If they do not want to join fine.If they want to start a breakaway league do it. Why not just do it and shut up about it. When they were locked out of the A league many of their supporters bagged the league and said they could not do with out them 8 years on and everything is going ok. If SMH FC does not want to join the NPL dont. It will go on with out them.Maybe the two groups are incompatible and should just go about their business independently.](*,) ](*,) ](*,)

Edited by krones3: 12/6/2013 04:30:43 AM


Why single out SMFC - one of the few teams that has committed to the NPL?
Because the the bigots of this game are exactly that; concurrently ignorant and uneducated.


I think not i played for a Victorian cultural club during the 70/80s and am very proud of the football philosophy and life long love of football they gave me. try to pass that on today.But the club is no more and went broke, i would not like to see this happen again.


"By the 1980s the club had fallen on hard times and in 1983 the club ceased to exist"

Edited by krones3: 12/6/2013 06:52:15 PM


You can't blame that on the fact that they are a club with specific community ties.

You sound like paulc. Many clubs around the world have died over the years. Has nothing to do with anything except poor business decisions. Nothing more nothing less.


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TheSelectFew wrote:
krones3 wrote:
11.mvfc.11 wrote:
Benjamin wrote:
krones3 wrote:
If they do not want to join fine.If they want to start a breakaway league do it. Why not just do it and shut up about it. When they were locked out of the A league many of their supporters bagged the league and said they could not do with out them 8 years on and everything is going ok. If SMH FC does not want to join the NPL dont. It will go on with out them.Maybe the two groups are incompatible and should just go about their business independently.](*,) ](*,) ](*,)

Edited by krones3: 12/6/2013 04:30:43 AM


Why single out SMFC - one of the few teams that has committed to the NPL?
Because the the bigots of this game are exactly that; concurrently ignorant and uneducated.


I think not i played for a Victorian cultural club during the 70/80s and am very proud of the football philosophy and life long love of football they gave me. try to pass that on today.But the club is no more and went broke, i would not like to see this happen again.


"By the 1980s the club had fallen on hard times and in 1983 the club ceased to exist"

Edited by krones3: 12/6/2013 06:52:15 PM


You can't blame that on the fact that they are a club with specific community ties.

You sound like paulc. Many clubs around the world have died over the years. Has nothing to do with anything except poor business decisions. Nothing more nothing less.


I never said nor implied anything of the sort i simply explained i am not bigoted and am speaking from a position of regret that so many clubs went broke.I don't even think it was due to poor business decisions just a product of the times.

Would anyone want to read in 10ys time about the
Northcote City
                     
   Bentleigh Greens
                     
   South Melbourne
                     
   Hume City
                     
   Port Melbourne Sharks
                     
   Melbourne Knights
                     
   Dandenong Thunder
                     
   Pascoe Vale
                     
   Green Gully Cavaliers
                     
   Oakleigh Cannons
                     
   Southern Stars
                     
   Richmond
                     
now being no more due to falling on hard times and failing to be in the NPL

I personally would not but if they wish to be dinosaurs and live in the past then the future will be short and a sorry one IMO.
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krones3 wrote:
TheSelectFew wrote:
krones3 wrote:
11.mvfc.11 wrote:
Benjamin wrote:
krones3 wrote:
If they do not want to join fine.If they want to start a breakaway league do it. Why not just do it and shut up about it. When they were locked out of the A league many of their supporters bagged the league and said they could not do with out them 8 years on and everything is going ok. If SMH FC does not want to join the NPL dont. It will go on with out them.Maybe the two groups are incompatible and should just go about their business independently.](*,) ](*,) ](*,)

Edited by krones3: 12/6/2013 04:30:43 AM


Why single out SMFC - one of the few teams that has committed to the NPL?
Because the the bigots of this game are exactly that; concurrently ignorant and uneducated.


I think not i played for a Victorian cultural club during the 70/80s and am very proud of the football philosophy and life long love of football they gave me. try to pass that on today.But the club is no more and went broke, i would not like to see this happen again.


"By the 1980s the club had fallen on hard times and in 1983 the club ceased to exist"

Edited by krones3: 12/6/2013 06:52:15 PM


You can't blame that on the fact that they are a club with specific community ties.

You sound like paulc. Many clubs around the world have died over the years. Has nothing to do with anything except poor business decisions. Nothing more nothing less.


I never said nor implied anything of the sort i simply explained i am not bigoted and am speaking from a position of regret that so many clubs went broke.I don't even think it was due to poor business decisions just a product of the times.

Would anyone want to read in 10ys time about the
Northcote City
                     
   Bentleigh Greens
                     
   South Melbourne
                     
   Hume City
                     
   Port Melbourne Sharks
                     
   Melbourne Knights
                     
   Dandenong Thunder
                     
   Pascoe Vale
                     
   Green Gully Cavaliers
                     
   Oakleigh Cannons
                     
   Southern Stars
                     
   Richmond
                     
now being no more due to falling on hard times and failing to be in the NPL

I personally would not but if they wish to be dinosaurs and live in the past then the future will be short and a sorry one IMO.


Living in the past > conforming and dying on their knees.


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Big Wally wrote:
The costs argument is not really one i agree with. Having gone through this process in NSW, and currently having to pay C-Licence coaches in all our youth squads, the costs has not really gone up by much. If anything, the benefit is greater, as we're charging more for rego fees than in previous years, and that's something across the board. I think its important that every coach has the appropriate accreditation. Australia is a country who has one of the smallest accredited coach to registered players ratio in the world, and its something we're just catching on to. the accreditation will hopefully move all kids and grown ups in to playing the same, or similar type of football that will one day be recognised as the australian way.

The only issue we had with costs here was that no club could be affiliated with an academy, saying that the structure that fnsw was implementing would provide sufficient coaching to the kids. 3 nights a week and game day for youth is probably enough i think. We've had situations in previous seasons where clubs take the rego fee then force their kids to join academies and go on trips at additional costs, and thankfully something is being done about this. Clubs here have however been allowed to maintain their juniors/association links, which plays a part with regards to costs, as they bumo up canteen and fundraising revenue, however, most clubs would struggle to charge association fees above what others in the association are charging, that would be suicide.

The zonal thing here isn't an issue as most zones here generally have more than one club thats satifactory. So i guess it'll depend how flexible the zones are.


In NSW you don't have a cap on Registration fees in VIC we do.
I know that APIA was charging $2,400 registration fee and $1,500 for SAP. I beleive most are in this range if not significantly more.

In NSW you don't have the Womens/Girls component. In Victoria all clubs successful in the NPLV must field a womens senior team and reserves along with junior girls teams. The implication is that in Victoria more coaches will be required in one hit.
Add to this more facilities are required.

Also in NSW the NPL did not include regional centres in Victoria the FFV is pushing hard for this to happen. This will present a range of issues, such as quality of play, expected decrease in revenues etc etc

In NSW the corporate structure of Clubs was discretionary, in QLD a Company structure. In Victoria Incorporated Associations, this limits the ability of Clubs ability to raise capital while on the other hand this structure rewards Clubs with existing large volunteer and supporter bases.

The FFV actually wants new Clubs either startup or consortiums to apply yet they have not allowed for a corporate structure that can support this type club which will require investment capital to be successful. These Clubs will rely on cashflows and lets not forget are restricted in revenues they can get directly from the junior support base and indirectly as a large junior base will increase revenue streams from canteen, functions, merchandising and fundraising activities. Then refer to my comments in previous paragraph about corporate structure.

It appears to me that the NPL is was designed more with NSW in mind especially in regards to high registration fees and Club Academey programs. The Vic version is more about "ideology".

We do agree on the issue of coaching accreditation numbers, compared to the big four of France, Spain, Italy and Germany who have approx 30,000 Uefa B and above licensed coaches. Comparativley we 10,000 active AFC B and above coaches.

But the NPL will not solve this, only the FFA and State federations can solve this by ahving enough coaching presentors and assesors and having enough courses. And offering those courses in a way that suits people who want to take up those courses.
Consideration to cost and time are also issues.
So when I see TV Money from Foxtel going to grassroots programs like Tim Cahills 2 day camps how can I not be cynical.

Han Berger himself lamented the lack of investment by the FFA in SAP and Skillaroo programs.

Interesting that you consider that everyone playing the same way will be of benefit, I respectfully disagree and the National Curriculum does not require that Club teams do. It is desirable that youth teams play 4-3-3 as a learning tool, as recommended by the Dutch methodology.
But then when coaches get their AFC A Licences they are required to develop their own style of play and tactics. Even in Holland clubs all have different playing styles and tactics. Cruyff and Ajax still glorify the 1-3-4-3.
Personally I would like to see clubs adopt Italian philosophies, Brazilian, Argentinian, French and Spainish. And that can only happen nowadays by importing coaches from these countries and I would like to see some of that too.

To finish off and to again show how the NPL is Sydney centric the zone concept has always been alien to Victoria. By limiting Clubs to zones and boundaries in Victoria there is no escaping the fact that the key football areas will be under represented. And this will affect the quality going forward in Victoria but appears something the FFV is prepared to sacrifice. Where as in NSW Zones/Associations have been the norm and with the high playing numbers in Sydney they become of no consequence to a Club as sufficient talented playing numbers are not an issue. In Victoria it will be.


Edited by Arthur: 13/6/2013 08:28:49 AM
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krones3 wrote:
What is the best thing for the game and the kids?


I refer you to Arthur's excellent post a couple above this one.
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Benjamin wrote:
krones3 wrote:
What is the best thing for the game and the kids?


I refer you to Arthur's excellent post a couple above this one.



The consensus in Victoria from a club and supporter point of view the implementation of the NCR should have happened something like this.

All VPL Clubs would need to adopt the NCR recommendations as per the FFA requirements by the end of 2013, as a Licence participation agreement.

The FFA 10 criteria to form Licensing procedure any additions brought by FFV to be on a consensus agreed to by a majority of NPL clubs. Introduced immediateley or graduated.

The VPL is rebranded to NPLV Division One beginning of 2014. At the end of 2014 the criteria must now be applied to State One Clubs and the competition rebranded to NPLV Division two.

Clubs that fail to meet the NPLV Licence criteria should then be relegated to a "Community" division.

The vacancies should then be offered to regional/country clubs or new consortia.

Promotion and relegation to State One from State Two N/W and State Two S/E would be dependant on promoted clubs meeting NPLV Licence criteria.

After 3-5 years the expectation would be that the 2 State two regionalised leagues would also have to meet NPLV criteria.

The $50K Licence fees should be used on agreed (FFV & Clubs)marketing and business startergies with clearly defined and transparent KPI's.

The Elite Junior Competitions that require 10 months operations need a re-think in terms of facilities.

Councils in Victoria operate on community participation and access there has also been long standing understanding with seperation of winter and summer sports.

A collabrative approach by the FFV and Clubs is required in this instance, the FFV headquarters in Darebin has three synthetic pitches that are well over 10 years old and should have been replaced some time ago. As well as bringing them upto the modern synthetic pitches as there are many queries regarding the impact of injuries on our talented juniors due to the poor quality of the surfaces and the fact that it is used by our NTC, State Development squads, SAP, Skillaroos etc. These facilities need to be upgraded and shared with many of the Junior ELite Clubs. We also need more like this to help develop the elite junior.

There are facilities available in Melbourne but they are sparse and to get effective use co-operation agreements between Councils, FFV, Elite Clubs and Community Clubs would be required to accomodate the junior players and this would involve sharing.

I would also seperated Mens/boys clubs from Womens/girls clubs. Stand alone womens clubs have always been most successful in attracting women and having on field success. I don't mind them sharing a club brand but they are better off being seperate entities. It has always been the case that the male game has always taken precedence over the womens game this is the best way of growing the womens game in my opinion.


PS

I must say that the FFV does not appear to have ramped up the number of Senior Licence courses, AFC C and AFC B courses.

While there has been no transparent reports as to wether the FFV has sufficient presentors/assesors to run enough courses to meet the espected demand and requirements.

Currently our Skillaroos coach and our TD have been involved in running courses which may imply that we don't have the resources currently while I think we are wasting these people's time when they could be doing something else in line with their job titles.

I also have to say that from what I have seen of some AFC C coaches in action close up they have no idea about the NC, or how to coach children and this must be a reflection on the course delivery (not content) it doesn'tseem to sink in with some people.

Edited by Arthur: 13/6/2013 09:43:27 AM

Edited by Arthur: 13/6/2013 11:49:42 AM
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[quote=Arthur

In NSW you don't have a cap on Registration fees in VIC we do.
I know that APIA was charging $2,400 registration fee and $1,500 for SAP. I beleive most are in this range if not significantly more.

In NSW you don't have the Womens/Girls component. In Victoria all clubs successful in the NPLV must field a womens senior team and reserves along with junior girls teams. The implication is that in Victoria more coaches will be required in one hit.
Add to this more facilities are required.

Also in NSW the NPL did not include regional centres in Victoria the FFV is pushing hard for this to happen. This will present a range of issues, such as quality of play, expected decrease in revenues etc etc

In NSW the corporate structure of Clubs was discretionary, in QLD a Company structure. In Victoria Incorporated Associations, this limits the ability of Clubs ability to raise capital while on the other hand this structure rewards Clubs with existing large volunteer and supporter bases.

The FFV actually wants new Clubs either startup or consortiums to apply yet they have not allowed for a corporate structure that can support this type club which will require investment capital to be successful. These Clubs will rely on cashflows and lets not forget are restricted in revenues they can get directly from the junior support base and indirectly as a large junior base will increase revenue streams from canteen, functions, merchandising and fundraising activities. Then refer to my comments in previous paragraph about corporate structure.

It appears to me that the NPL is was designed more with NSW in mind especially in regards to high registration fees and Club Academey programs. The Vic version is more about "ideology".

We do agree on the issue of coaching accreditation numbers, compared to the big four of France, Spain, Italy and Germany who have approx 30,000 Uefa B and above licensed coaches. Comparativley we 10,000 active AFC B and above coaches.

But the NPL will not solve this, only the FFA and State federations can solve this by ahving enough coaching presentors and assesors and having enough courses. And offering those courses in a way that suits people who want to take up those courses.
Consideration to cost and time are also issues.
So when I see TV Money from Foxtel going to grassroots programs like Tim Cahills 2 day camps how can I not be cynical.

Han Berger himself lamented the lack of investment by the FFA in SAP and Skillaroo programs.

Interesting that you consider that everyone playing the same way will be of benefit, I respectfully disagree and the National Curriculum does not require that Club teams do. It is desirable that youth teams play 4-3-3 as a learning tool, as recommended by the Dutch methodology.
But then when coaches get their AFC A Licences they are required to develop their own style of play and tactics. Even in Holland clubs all have different playing styles and tactics. Cruyff and Ajax still glorify the 1-3-4-3.
Personally I would like to see clubs adopt Italian philosophies, Brazilian, Argentinian, French and Spainish. And that can only happen nowadays by importing coaches from these countries and I would like to see some of that too.

To finish off and to again show how the NPL is Sydney centric the zone concept has always been alien to Victoria. By limiting Clubs to zones and boundaries in Victoria there is no escaping the fact that the key football areas will be under represented. And this will affect the quality going forward in Victoria but appears something the FFV is prepared to sacrifice. Where as in NSW Zones/Associations have been the norm and with the high playing numbers in Sydney they become of no consequence to a Club as sufficient talented playing numbers are not an issue. In Victoria it will be.


Edited by Arthur: 13/6/2013 08:28:49 AM[/quote]

If you don't share the FFA vision then don't apply and from the outside this what it looks like.
As for girls teams in QLD 3 clubs city strikers and Olympic used community clubs to provide this function in PARTNERSHIP.

Europe is funding the war not Chelsea football club

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dirkvanadidas wrote:


If you don't share the FFA vision then don't apply and from the outside this what it looks like.
As for girls teams in QLD 3 clubs city strikers and Olympic used community clubs to provide this function in PARTNERSHIP.


Once again it is not the FFA vision that is in question rather the FFV add-ons.

I am aware of the Qld situation and have saved an announcement of one Club partnering with another to provide the Womens/girls program.

The FFV has given no indication that this is even possible,PARTNERSHIPS.

I have also used the Youtube piece having the Qld CEO with FFA exec's and Han Berger talking to clubs, we have had nothing like that kind of contact.
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I know for a fact that our club will suffer from the NPL Men's/Women's requirement. Sandringham City has been playing in the WPL for the last 5 years or so, having been rather successful the last few seasons. However when the NPL is up and running we won't be a part of it because our men's team is all the way down in State League 4. We have a current Matilda on the books as well as having developed a few in the recent years but once this goes into effect they will all go to other clubs.

The Men's and Women's teams should be separate because the development systems are different, men and women develop in different ways. Tacking on a women's team to clubs without the experience of developing women will only impact upon the Matildas in the long run.
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While reading about Jai Ingham of Olympic FC as one of the best players outside the A-League it was with interest that I read about how Olympic FC operates within the NPLQ framework and compare it with Victorias framework.

The Name: Olympic FC under FFV participation agreement the name does not qualify as acceptable.

The Teams;
National Premier Leagues
NPL Senior Men- Required
NPL Under-20 Youth Men Required
NPL Under-18 Youth Men Required
NPL Under-16 Boys Required
NPL Under-15 Boys Required
NPL Under-14 Boys Required
NPL Under-13 Boys Required
NPL Under-12 Boys Required
NPL Under-15 Girls U16
NPL Under-14 Girls Required
NPL Under-13 Girls U12

Missning FFV requirements
NPL Senior Womens
NPL U20 Womens
NPL U18 Womens



Football Brisbane

Senior Men (Capital League 3) (Capital League 3 Reserves) Not allowed
Senior Men (City League 1) – Senior Women (City League 1) Not allowed
Men’s Under-18s (Division 2) – Women’s Under-18s Not allowed
Under-15 Girls (Division 1) – Under-15 Girls (Division 2) Not allowed
Under-14 Girls (Division 3) Not allowed
Under-13 Boys (Division 3 South) Not allowed

Under-12 Boys (Division 2 South)Not allowed
Under-12 Girls (Division 1)Not allowed
Under-12 (Girls Division 2) Not allowed
Small Sided Football Not allowed
Under-11s, Under-10s, Under-9s, Under-8s, Under-7s, Under-6s Not allowed
Squirts Not allowed
Ages: 6 to 3

Clinics
Olympic FC is proud to again welcome the Michael Theo Soccer Academy to Goodwin Park for the Brisbane Roar star’s Specialised Goalkeeper and Outfield Player Soccer Clinics in July 2013. See below for details.

Must be cost recovery basis only, seprate accounts must be presented

Olympic FC 8-11 Years Academy
Everyone at Olympic FC is currently enjoying the best period of the clubs existence as they are now part of the FFA’s Elite Player Pathway and competing within the National Premier Leagues.
The club is also investing considerably in youth development, putting in place an exclusive development program for 8-11 year olds. This will act as a foundation for the future of the club within the new NPL.
The Academy program has been tried and tested over this last year and has been found to be successful, as six of our NPL Under-12s came through the program this year.

Must be cost recovery basis only, seprate accounts must be presented.
Also expected that Olympic FC would be putting on FREE clinics on a regular basis for local community Clubs


Club Constitution
http://olympic.pagodabox.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Olympic-Constitution.pdf

Fails to comply with FFV requiements

Registration fees:
NPL Seniors: $940 Fits within framwork
NPL Juniors (U16s-U12s): $940 Fits within framwork

Football Brisbane Competition Senior Men: $600 Not allowed
Football Brisbane Competition Senior Women: $635 Not allowed
Football Brisbane Competition Juniors (U18s-U12s): $435 Not allowed
Small-Sided Football: $335 Not allowed
Squirts: $210 Not allowed


http://palmbeachfc.com.au/w/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/NYC-Selection-Process-Letter-to-Parents_201305141711.pdf

Found this interesting if your selected for junior QLD Rep teams and go to the National Championships it will only cost a selected player $3,000.


Edited by Arthur: 14/6/2013 11:35:32 AM

Edited by Arthur: 14/6/2013 11:51:29 AM
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Arthur wrote:
While reading about Jai Ingham of Olympic FC as one of the best players outside the A-League it was with interest that I read about how Olympic FC operates within the NPLQ framework and compare it with Victorias framework.

The Name: Olympic FC under FFV participation agreement the name does not qualify as acceptable.

The Teams;
National Premier Leagues
NPL Senior Men- Required
NPL Under-20 Youth Men Required
NPL Under-18 Youth Men Required
NPL Under-16 Boys Required
NPL Under-15 Boys Required
NPL Under-14 Boys Required
NPL Under-13 Boys Required
NPL Under-12 Boys Required
NPL Under-15 Girls U16
NPL Under-14 Girls Required
NPL Under-13 Girls U12

Missning FFV requirements
NPL Senior Womens
NPL U20 Womens
NPL U18 Womens



Football Brisbane

Senior Men (Capital League 3) (Capital League 3 Reserves) Not allowed
Senior Men (City League 1) – Senior Women (City League 1) Not allowed
Men’s Under-18s (Division 2) – Women’s Under-18s Not allowed
Under-15 Girls (Division 1) – Under-15 Girls (Division 2) Not allowed
Under-14 Girls (Division 3) Not allowed
Under-13 Boys (Division 3 South) Not allowed

Under-12 Boys (Division 2 South)Not allowed
Under-12 Girls (Division 1)Not allowed
Under-12 (Girls Division 2) Not allowed
Small Sided Football Not allowed
Under-11s, Under-10s, Under-9s, Under-8s, Under-7s, Under-6s Not allowed
Squirts Not allowed
Ages: 6 to 3

Clinics
Olympic FC is proud to again welcome the Michael Theo Soccer Academy to Goodwin Park for the Brisbane Roar star’s Specialised Goalkeeper and Outfield Player Soccer Clinics in July 2013. See below for details.

Must be cost recovery basis only, seprate accounts must be presented

Olympic FC 8-11 Years Academy
Everyone at Olympic FC is currently enjoying the best period of the clubs existence as they are now part of the FFA’s Elite Player Pathway and competing within the National Premier Leagues.
The club is also investing considerably in youth development, putting in place an exclusive development program for 8-11 year olds. This will act as a foundation for the future of the club within the new NPL.
The Academy program has been tried and tested over this last year and has been found to be successful, as six of our NPL Under-12s came through the program this year.

Must be cost recovery basis only, seprate accounts must be presented.
Also expected that Olympic FC would be putting on FREE clinics on a regular basis for local community Clubs


Club Constitution
http://olympic.pagodabox.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Olympic-Constitution.pdf

Fails to comply with FFV requiements

Registration fees:
NPL Seniors: $940 Fits within framwork
NPL Juniors (U16s-U12s): $940 Fits within framwork

Football Brisbane Competition Senior Men: $600 Not allowed
Football Brisbane Competition Senior Women: $635 Not allowed
Football Brisbane Competition Juniors (U18s-U12s): $435 Not allowed
Small-Sided Football: $335 Not allowed
Squirts: $210 Not allowed


http://palmbeachfc.com.au/w/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/NYC-Selection-Process-Letter-to-Parents_201305141711.pdf

Found this interesting if your selected for junior QLD Rep teams and go to the National Championships it will only cost a selected player $3,000.


Edited by Arthur: 14/6/2013 11:35:32 AM

Edited by Arthur: 14/6/2013 11:51:29 AM


have a look at moreton bay jets, as it is the franchise entitity of albany creek excelsior
so mbj has the elite and ace has all the community part but they are one of the same .

Europe is funding the war not Chelsea football club

Arthur
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dirkvanadidas wrote:


have a look at moreton bay jets, as it is the franchise entitity of albany creek excelsior
so mbj has the elite and ace has all the community part but they are one of the same .


Thanks dirk.
cro69
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krones3 wrote:
11.mvfc.11 wrote:
Benjamin wrote:
krones3 wrote:
If they do not want to join fine.If they want to start a breakaway league do it. Why not just do it and shut up about it. When they were locked out of the A league many of their supporters bagged the league and said they could not do with out them 8 years on and everything is going ok. If SMH FC does not want to join the NPL dont. It will go on with out them.Maybe the two groups are incompatible and should just go about their business independently.](*,) ](*,) ](*,)

Edited by krones3: 12/6/2013 04:30:43 AM


Why single out SMFC - one of the few teams that has committed to the NPL?
Because the the bigots of this game are exactly that; concurrently ignorant and uneducated.


I think not i played for a Victorian cultural club during the 70/80s and am very proud of the football philosophy and life long love of football they gave me. try to pass that on today.But the club is no more and went broke, i would not like to see this happen again.


"By the 1980s the club had fallen on hard times and in 1983 the club ceased to exist"

Edited by krones3: 12/6/2013 06:52:15 PM



I think i know which club that was, and if im right our rugged ex Melbourne Croatia captain George Hannah came from the same club.

there are lots that have died over the years.

melb hungaria
footscray just- not that im shedding tears over that one.
slavia
ringwood
caufield city
frankston city
sunshine city

These are just a few that used to be power house clubs in Melbourne in the 60's,70's and 80's but now gone forever.

Edited by cro69: 20/6/2013 06:15:45 PM
GO


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