so the secret is now out why the FFV made all VPL clubs ditch their sub junior teams when applying for the NPL, to make way for the SAP program. what a low act from these faceless ignorant sap staff and to drop this bombshell so late in the process just goes to show how detached they are from the football community

http://admin.footballfedvic.com.au/fileadmin/user_upload/Communications/NPLV/9_AUGUST_2013_FFA_SAP_NPL__2_.pdf

why not simply let the clubs have both, they could keep their sub junior teams and get a club coach to learn how to run the sap program or even if the control freaks cant let go get a sap coach to come along and run it at the club. but no that would be too easy and meant they couldnt control everything absolute sham!

i think NSW NPL were able to keep their sub juniors why not just the same in Vic. surely NSW have the sap program there pretty sure its in every state ](*,)

if the FFA were behind this then shame on them for targeting Vic especially dropping it all so late in the application process. no respect whatsoever. if the FFV are responsible then that is a low act so many clubs volunteers kids and parents impacted and look at the result court case and anger. shame on those responsible for this disaster here in Vic

I am sure that if the clubs could keep their sub juniors involved then this mess wouldnt have happened in the first place.

time for the ffv board to go so we can get some respectable leaders in charge who actually employ decent people that try to help the clubs, wouldn't that be a change!

No one is forcing them to join.

That's why they aren't.

I have been coaching abreast of the Skills Acquisition Program and Skilleroos programs this year, by coaching a FFA rep team in a state system. SAP is a brilliant program. It has Coerver elements in it, with a massive onus on game sense (insight).

It is decidedly better as a national, unified, cohesive, holistic system than the ad hoc system we had before. It is predicated on Spanish, Dutch, German and French best practice. For some state league coaching staffs to think they know better practice, is ridiculous.


Last time I spoke to one of the SAP national curriculum writers, only NSW has SAP operating at club level.

Edited by Decentric: 11/8/2013 06:54:14 PM

You do not reduce the number of juniors in the system in order to improve the output of the system, you improve the quality of coaching they receive.

FFV is planning on reducing the number of juniors in the system from what I can gather, they do not have the best interests of the game.

Decentric it's not the quality of the actual sap program that is being discussed here, it is the sneaky and completely unnecessary way it has been used by FFV to throw out and replace the hundreds and thousands of junior players from the clubs around victoria

I am sure the FFA has rolled out the sap program for good reason but i doubt anyone there would like the way it has been used to divide the clubs here in Vic, absolute disgrace from a bunch of ignorant people from inside the FFV running the sap program

and to top it off read this "Victorian NPL clubs will be given priority to run and manage official recognised sap program for the most talented kids from all COMMUNITY CLUBS"

so the baffling logic from geniuses inside the ffv and sap staff have it that NPL clubs clearly aren't suitable to develop these young kids, otherwise they would be allowed to keep their junior kids wouldn't they, so obvious step then would be to provide the community clubs with the sap program to look after the kids that were forced to leave, but no that would make too much sense.

instead these rocket scientists have given the sap program to the NPL clubs where the kids have just left. And the community clubs don't get the sap program. This could only happen in Victoria

The people responsible for this little scheme need to take a good hard look at themselves utter disgrace. The number of people impacted and left fuming and spending energy and hard earned money trying to fix it now through the courts is incredible. This will not easily be forgotten

Disgraceful FFV.
What we are seeing now is ass covering at its finest.
Once the legal action commences, the propeller heads that came up with this absurd implementation model, will be ducking for cover.
Fancy coming up with a model that disrespects the time money and effort put in by SSF communities.
Shame on you FC Bulleen Lions for being so desperate to enter the npl at the expense of their SSF community.
If you are truly the proud, strong and fabulous club you claim to be you should be standing up to this nonsense being trotted out by the FFV and not forsaking your grassroots community.

100%

To me it's quite simple. To gain more power and control over all the clubs, they are trying to weaken them all by reducing the amount of players under their control.

As others have said before, it's about divide and conquer.

If you cut out the SSF and half of the teams in the other age groups you lose all those parents and families potential support. and i am not talking about juniors funding the seniors here. Parents and familes spend money at games on food, rafles and other club functions that will be split up over 2 groups instead of one.

If someone like joffa says then don't apply for the NPL, that's fine but then don't go and weaken the lower leagues to make the NPL stronger. Don't force the clubs to only be amateure and splitthem up into regions.

Look I cannot pontificate on the nuances of FFV, as I am not involved.

My concern is anyone trying to denigrate the quality of the SAP, and being given the autonomy to ignore it.

In terms of comparing FFT, the organisation I've coached for this year, and FFV, I can comment on one issue.

A few years ago, Tassie's then TD, Kurt Reynolds, seemed to be able to organise a big attendance for a Tony Franken goalkeeping workshop. Another poster on 442, had emailed FFV on a number of occasions about the same course. He received no response from FFV. One would like to think an email went astray. This mode of communication is not infallible.

Coaches in the FFA system have concerns about various facets of the organisation. I don't like a narrowly identified elite pathway from about 11 onwards. Maturational issues effect selection for these programs. Nevertheless, the fundamental tenets of the FFA coaching methodology are predicated on very sound rationale.

However, there is a dichotomy in FFA coaching ranks about the value of futsal for outdoor 11v 11 football. From what I've seen, futsal is great for outdoor football.

Even if the organizational aspects of FFA can be variable, essentially the coaching methodology is sound.

One has to look at the objectives for wanting to assume centralized control by FFV. In Tasmania I was involved in a regional club that was adversely effected by the inception of a state league this year.

However, by catering for the top down, there has been considerable impetus and interest in football in general through the state league structure - the Victory backed V League. Smaller clubs suffering has contributed to the principle of utilitarianism - the greater good for the greater football milieu.

In Victoria I know an elite coach who is very frustrated by clubs trying to hide players for their own expedient interests. In another state all the best players were playing with the NTC. It was a lot easier to recruit.

" State FFA" are two words that seem to be put together to inflate the quality of teams that are coached.

In future please refer to FFT & FFA as separate distinct entities in your posts instead of creating a linguistic furphy that only serves to falsely elevate your argument in this particular section of the forum.

Thanking you in advance.

There isn't any evidence to support coaching makes a significant difference between the ages of 9-12, which is what is being targeted by the looks of it. The best clubs in the world have dismal development rates of juniors and anyone who has played sports knows that listening to whatever exercise the coach is giving is about the last thing on your mind at that age.

At the victorian level, the system has operated 'naturally' for the last ten years, which will mean some good coaching and some not so good, but the over all development of players has been poor. That points to structural issues.

Structural issues caused by the FFV who scrapped the state wide junior "Super League" system that produced world class players in favour of a zonal "Victorian Champions League" that has failed dismally and from a player development perspective has produced absolutely ZERO.

A round of congratulations to Don Monteleone and co for completely annihilating the Victorian Football Scene.

Their time is up.

Edited by southfan: 12/8/2013 01:45:06 PM

The game has been annihilated because you guys haven't moved with the times. No one wants to cheer 'Greece lite' or equivalent, you have to get into the local community and work it.

On the development front, if that's the summer comp you're referring to, i thought that died in the ass, regardless it has been a relatively recent occurrence. The clubs in winter have been producing very little for much longer and you can't tell me every single club has poor coaches.

The obvious structural reform required is a platform for junior players to show themselves so they can get into a professional environment earlier i.e. put an age restriction on the VPL. When the NSL was going the better juniors could go straight into a semi-professional environment.

For what it's worth i don't actually agree with a centralised coaching system or wage structure, but unfortunately you guys haven't been stepping up and with limited ground availability and unworkable migrant v local rivalries, it seems the FFV has had to kick you into action. Hope it works.

Edited by kapow!: 12/8/2013 02:15:25 PM

So now we have:
- player development
- coaching quality
- crowds
- interest
- global warming

Anything else that the 'migrant clubs' can be blamed for?

I actually said it's impossible that all coaching was bad, pointing to structural issues, but continue on. lol

Yes, and who do you blame those structural issues on?

Why are you not leveling fire at the regional and broad based clubs that are in the same position as South Melbourne? If this isn't about ethnicity then you better stop singling out a single migrant community and start talking about all 47 clubs involved - or doesn't that fit with your prejudices?

So kapow has finally made her way into the State League threads :lol:

-PB

Decentric could you please make a comment regarding the above quote please.

I would rather it came from someone else as whatever I post in response to Kapow! on that point will not be taken with respect.



I don't know on what eveidence he is basing this on can someone assist please?




Can someone assist please I don't understand how "STRUCTURE" will develop player say as compared to quality of coaching.

I can answer the last one Arthur, the structure has to involve only people and clubs whose membership, board, players and football department have the same % make up of nationalities that the suburbs they are located within have. If they do not they are monoethnic and therefor incapable of being anything other than a hotbed for nationalistic violence and will fail to produce a single decent player.

What background in football do you have to proffer an antithetical view to what happens in nations with world's best practice, like Holland, Germany and France?

If there is not any evidence, as you assert, why do top countries like Spain, Holland, France and Germany place such importance in coaching children of this age, Kapow?

What coaching background do you have to advocate antithetical methodology to the aforementioned countries?

Edited by Decentric: 12/8/2013 09:50:34 PM

Your argument doesn't account for the fact that the ones who do make it, have still been coached in elite programs offered by clubs. It just happens there is a high attrition rate.

Also, for your blatantly ignorant comment about wasted effort in coaching 9 - 12 year olds, this year I've been coaching further up the age ladder in elite programs. Empirically, the kids who have had Skills Acquistion Program Training, for the most elite 9-12 year olds, were a long way in front of the kids who hadn't been selected for SAP at the beginning of this season.


Moreover, Kapow, don't make the mistake of extrapolating other sports phenomena to football. Your normative rationale is predicated on spurious and specious premises.

Does it?

The ' ad hoc' system you uphold in your 'operating naturally' contention in Victoria is not implemented in Spain, Germany, Holland and France.

How can you appraise players as being poorly developed?

In what way?

Core skills?

What are the Core Skills in football? Which are most important?

Insight?

Structure?

Communication?

Understanding of the four main moments of play on the pitch?

Edited by Decentric: 12/8/2013 09:48:55 PM

Thank you very much Decentric couldn't have said it any better myself that's for sure.

I' d already started on Kapow's gobbledygook, before I saw your post.:)

Anyway it was a pleasure.

Decentric you type a lot without actually saying much. I do wonder what meds you are on also lol. At the end of the day fellas, there's zero evidence that between 9-12yrs the key is coaching and you guys haven't provided any evidence [specifically General Ashnak who made the claim]. If the point was correct, you'd back it up.

Obviously both, but if the clubs had been on the front foot on what is important for the league to gain relevance, specifically regarding community engagement and development, they could have been driving the changes. Instead we now get this national centralised system, which will probably offer more consistency but will have a lower range of output i.e. not necessarily a positive.


I didn’t make any comment about the FFV/club battle moron, or about one specific club or 'ethnicity'. We were discussing that it is silly to suggest the clubs can absolve themselves from blame in not growing the game and not developing players.