Socceroofan4life
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Thought it was worth its own thread. http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/03/01/uk-ukraine-idUKBREA1H0EM20140301Quote:(Reuters) - Russian President Vladimir Putin demanded and won his parliament's approval on Saturday to invade Ukraine, where the new government warned of war, put its troops on high alert and appealed to NATO for help.
Putin's open assertion of the right to send troops to a country of 46 million people on the ramparts of central Europe creates the biggest confrontation between Russia and the West since the Cold War.
Prime Minister Arseny Yatseniuk, leading a government that took power after Moscow's ally Viktor Yanukovich fled a week ago, said Russian military action "would be the beginning of war and the end of any relations between Ukraine and Russia".
Acting President Oleksander Turchinov ordered troops to be placed on high combat alert. Foreign Minister Andriy Deshchytsya said he had met European and U.S. officials and sent a request to NATO to "examine all possibilities to protect the territorial integrity and sovereignty of Ukraine".
Putin's move was a direct rebuff to Western leaders who had repeatedly urged Russia not to intervene, including U.S. President Barack Obama, who just a day before had held a televised address to warn Moscow of "costs" if it acted.
Troops with no insignia on their uniforms but clearly Russian - some in vehicles with Russian number plates - have already seized Crimea, an isolated peninsula in the Black Sea where Moscow has a large military presence in the headquarters of its Black Sea Fleet. Kiev's new authorities have been powerless to stop them.
The Russian forces solidified their control of Crimea and unrest spread to other parts of Ukraine on Saturday. Pro-Russian demonstrators clashed, sometimes violently, with supporters of Ukraine's new authorities and raised the Russian flag over government buildings in several cities.
"This is probably the most dangerous situation in Europe since the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968," said a Western official on condition of anonymity. "Realistically, we have to assume the Crimea is in Russian hands. The challenge now is to deter Russia from taking over the Russian-speaking east of Ukraine."
Putin asked parliament to approve force "in connection with the extraordinary situation in Ukraine, the threat to the lives of citizens of the Russian Federation, our compatriots" and to protect the Black Sea Fleet in Crimea.
The upper house swiftly delivered a unanimous "yes" vote, shown live on television.
Western capitals scrambled for a response, but it was limited to words. A U.S. official said Defence Secretary Chuck Hagel had spoken to his Russian counterpart Sergei Shoigu. The official said there had been no change in U.S. military posture.
EU foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton urged Moscow not to send troops. Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt said this would be "clearly against international law". Czech President Milos Zeman likened the crisis to the 1968 invasion of Czechoslovakia.
"Urgent need for de-escalation in Crimea," tweeted NATO Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen. "NATO allies continue to coordinate closely."
Putin said his request for authorisation to use force in Ukraine would last "until the normalisation of the socio-political situation in that country". His justification - the need to protect Russian citizens - was the same as he used to launch a 2008 invasion of Georgia, where Russian forces seized two breakaway regions and recognised them as independent.
FLAGS TORN DOWN
So far there has been no sign of Russian military action in Ukraine outside Crimea, the only part of the country with a Russian ethnic majority, which has often voiced separatist aims.
A potentially bigger risk would be conflict spreading to the rest of Ukraine, where the sides could not be easily kept apart.
As tension built on Saturday, demonstrations occasionally turned violent in eastern cities, where most people, though ethnically Ukrainian, are Russian speakers and many support Moscow and Yanukovich.
Demonstrators flew Russian flags on government buildings in the cities of Kharkiv, Donetsk, Odessa and Dnipropetrovsk.
In Kharkiv, scores of people were wounded in clashes when thousands of pro-Russian activists stormed the regional government headquarters, and fought pitched battles with a smaller number of supporters of Ukraine's new authorities.
Pro-Russian demonstrators wielded axe handles and chains against those defending the building with plastic shields.
In Donetsk, Yanukovich's home region, lawmakers declared they were seeking a referendum on the region's status.
"We do not recognise the authorities in Kiev, they are not legitimate," protest leader Pavel Guberev thundered from a podium in Donetsk.
Thousands of followers, holding a giant Russian flag and chanting "Russia, Russia" marched to the government headquarters and replaced the Ukrainian flag with Russia's.
Coal miner Gennady Pavlov said he backed Putin's declaration of the right to intervene. "It is time to put an end to this lawlessness. Russians are our brothers. I support the forces."
"WAR HAS ARRIVED"
On Kiev's central Independence Square, where protesters camped out for months against Yanukovich, a World War Two film about Crimea was being shown on a giant screen, when Yuri Lutsenko, a former interior minister, interrupted it to announce Putin's decree. "War has arrived," Lutsenko said.
Hundreds of Ukrainians descended on the square chanting "Glory to the heroes. Death to the occupiers."
Although there was little doubt that the troops without insignia that have already seized Crimea are Russian, the Kremlin has not yet openly confirmed it. It described Saturday's authorisation as a threat for future action rather than confirmation that its soldiers are already involved.
A Kremlin spokesman said Putin had not yet decided to use force, and still hoped to avoid further escalation.
In Crimea itself, the arrival of troops was cheered by the Russian majority. In the coastal town of Balaclava, where Russian-speaking troops in armoured vehicles with black Russian number plates had encircled a small garrison of Ukrainian border guards, families posed for pictures with the soldiers. A wedding party honked its car horns.
"I want to live with Russia. I want to join Russia," said Alla Batura, a petite 71-year-old pensioner who has lived in Sevastopol for 50 years. "They are good lads...They are protecting us, so we feel safe."
But not everyone was reassured. Inna, 21, a clerk in a nearby shop who came out to stare at the APCs, said: "I am in shock. I don't understand what the hell this is... People say they came here to protect us. Who knows? ... All of our (Ukrainian) military are probably out at sea by now."
The rapid pace of events has rattled the new leaders of Ukraine, who took power in a nation on the verge of bankruptcy when Yanukovich fled Kiev last week after his police killed scores of anti-Russian protesters in Kiev. Ukraine's crisis began in November when Yanukovich, at Moscow's behest, abandoned a free trade pact with the EU for closer ties with Russia.
For many in Ukraine, the prospect of a military conflict chilled the blood.
"When a Slav fights another Slav, the result is devastating," said Natalia Kuharchuk, a Kiev accountant.
"God save us." Is being reported by the Guardian as well: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/01/ukraine-warns-russia-military-crimea-intervention-war
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paladisious
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Hardly a full scale invasion, yet. What a lot of people don't realise is that roughly half of Ukraine, the western half, is populated by Russian speakers who may see themselves just as much Russian as they do Ukrainian. Hopefully this is just Putin waving his semi around and it de-escelates peacefully, an actual conflict would help absolutely nobody. I'm close to people on both sides of this divide, and indeed this would be tearing families apart there. I've been keeping up to date with the live feed on the Guardian site.
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humbert
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Just waiting for the sycophants to come on and suggest that Putin is acting reasonably.
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paulbagzFC
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Wow; Quote:Ukrainian Pravda report that Ukrainian football clubs could be banned from international competitions after the Ukrainian Football Union was taken over by a militia, believed to be connected to Dynamo Kiev.
Political organisations are banned from interfering with the affairs of football according to Fifa and Uefa regulations. -PB
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spfc
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Quote:Ukraine’s Navy flagship, the Hetman Sahaidachny frigate, has reportedly refused to follow orders from Kiev, and come over to Russia’s side and is returning home after taking part in NATO operation in the Gulf of Aden flying the Russian naval flag.
There has been conflicting information on where exactly the vessel is, but a Russian senator has confirmed to Izvestia daily that the frigate defected to the Russian side.
“Ukraine’s Navy flagship the Hetman Sahaidachny has come over to our side today. It has hung out the St Andrew’s flag,” Senator Igor Morozov, a member of the committee on the international affairs, told Izvestia daily. seems the ukraine navy dont want to follow orders of the new leader
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spfc
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paulbagzFC wrote:Wow; Quote:Ukrainian Pravda report that Ukrainian football clubs could be banned from international competitions after the Ukrainian Football Union was taken over by a militia, believed to be connected to Dynamo Kiev.
Political organisations are banned from interfering with the affairs of football according to Fifa and Uefa regulations. -PB wont surprise me to see blatter under pressure to kick russia out of the world cup over this
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rusty
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paladisious wrote:Hardly a full scale invasion, yet. What a lot of people don't realise is that roughly half of Ukraine, the western half, is populated by Russian speakers who may see themselves just as much Russian as they do Ukrainian. That doesn't give a them a right to invade another sovereign nation does it. The western half of Ukraine belongs to as much to Ukraine as does the eastern half , and none of it belongs to Russia.
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ricecrackers
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rusty wrote:paladisious wrote:Hardly a full scale invasion, yet. What a lot of people don't realise is that roughly half of Ukraine, the western half, is populated by Russian speakers who may see themselves just as much Russian as they do Ukrainian. That doesn't give a them a right to invade another sovereign nation does it. The western half of Ukraine belongs to as much to Ukraine as does the eastern half , and none of it belongs to Russia. were you ok with the US, Qatar and Saudi Arabia funding insurgents to overthrow Assad in Syria? were you ok with them doing the same thing in Libya, and earlier invading Iraq and Afghanistan? if not then fine, you're not a hypocrite in any way
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Condemned666
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One of the most depressing places in the whole world, Ukraine
Its population is actually shrinking and its also the country where Chernobyl is
Stay away from such a place
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paladisious
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Condemned666 wrote:One of the most depressing places in the whole world, Ukraine It's a beautiful country. Condemned666 wrote:Its population is actually shrinking and its also the country where Chernobyl is
Stay away from such a place Stay away from Japan too, then?
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paladisious
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rusty wrote:paladisious wrote:Hardly a full scale invasion, yet. What a lot of people don't realise is that roughly half of Ukraine, the western half, is populated by Russian speakers who may see themselves just as much Russian as they do Ukrainian. That doesn't give a them a right to invade another sovereign nation does it. The western half of Ukraine belongs to as much to Ukraine as does the eastern half , and none of it belongs to Russia. I don't disagree, stupid, provocative move.
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Condemned666
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paladisious wrote:Condemned666 wrote:One of the most depressing places in the whole world, Ukraine It's a beautiful country Its Not high on my list of destinations I'd like to visit, bro I actually did a pisstake at the bookshop this afternoon showing the lonely planet cover of Ukraine, "The Happiest Place on Earth" :lol: Although it did bring us the magic of Andrei Shevchenko
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Glory Recruit
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Ukraine has mobilised its troops, U.K. And U.S. Have a treaty to protect Ukraine which they're now calling on.
My bet is Putin could be waiting for any incident to use as justification for an invasion, which is probably why Ukraine hasn't reacted despite an obvious major breach of sovereignty.
Thanks for feed Palad, I've also been glued to tv.
Edited by iridium1010: 2/3/2014 09:51:09 PM
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thupercoach
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Where's the "no blood for oil" rentacrowd?
Re welcoming civilians - nazi troops were welcomed with flowers in Sudetenland. And Austria.
This is disgusting and criminal from the Russians. Had it been the US invading Grenada or whoever half this forum would have an apoplectic fit.
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humbert
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thupercoach wrote:Where's the "no blood for oil" rentacrowd?
Re welcoming civilians - nazi troops were welcomed with flowers in Sudetenland. And Austria.
This is disgusting and criminal from the Russians. Had it been the US invading Grenada or whoever half this forum would have an apoplectic fit.
=d> =d> =d>
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humbert
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ricecrackers wrote:rusty wrote:paladisious wrote:Hardly a full scale invasion, yet. What a lot of people don't realise is that roughly half of Ukraine, the western half, is populated by Russian speakers who may see themselves just as much Russian as they do Ukrainian. That doesn't give a them a right to invade another sovereign nation does it. The western half of Ukraine belongs to as much to Ukraine as does the eastern half , and none of it belongs to Russia. were you ok with the US, Qatar and Saudi Arabia funding insurgents to overthrow Assad in Syria? were you ok with them doing the same thing in Libya, and earlier invading Iraq and Afghanistan? if not then fine, you're not a hypocrite in any way Equating action against a desiccated quasi-fascist regime, a regime run by a deranged geriatric calling for 'rivers of blood', and a regime of 6th century peasant warlords, with an intrusion against an, albeit imperfect, democratic country. ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)
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paulbagzFC
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I still don't understand how anyone can view this correctly, how the fuck are you allowed to breach borders in the name of defending "Russian citizens"? If they don't like it, fuck them off back to Russia ffs. -PB
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ricecrackers
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humbert wrote:ricecrackers wrote:rusty wrote:paladisious wrote:Hardly a full scale invasion, yet. What a lot of people don't realise is that roughly half of Ukraine, the western half, is populated by Russian speakers who may see themselves just as much Russian as they do Ukrainian. That doesn't give a them a right to invade another sovereign nation does it. The western half of Ukraine belongs to as much to Ukraine as does the eastern half , and none of it belongs to Russia. were you ok with the US, Qatar and Saudi Arabia funding insurgents to overthrow Assad in Syria? were you ok with them doing the same thing in Libya, and earlier invading Iraq and Afghanistan? if not then fine, you're not a hypocrite in any way Equating action against a desiccated quasi-fascist regime, a regime run by a deranged geriatric calling for 'rivers of blood', and a regime of 6th century peasant warlords, with an intrusion against an, albeit imperfect, democratic country. ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) please tell us more, you seem abundantly informed on this topic
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humbert
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ricecrackers wrote:humbert wrote:ricecrackers wrote:rusty wrote:paladisious wrote:Hardly a full scale invasion, yet. What a lot of people don't realise is that roughly half of Ukraine, the western half, is populated by Russian speakers who may see themselves just as much Russian as they do Ukrainian. That doesn't give a them a right to invade another sovereign nation does it. The western half of Ukraine belongs to as much to Ukraine as does the eastern half , and none of it belongs to Russia. were you ok with the US, Qatar and Saudi Arabia funding insurgents to overthrow Assad in Syria? were you ok with them doing the same thing in Libya, and earlier invading Iraq and Afghanistan? if not then fine, you're not a hypocrite in any way Equating action against a desiccated quasi-fascist regime, a regime run by a deranged geriatric calling for 'rivers of blood', and a regime of 6th century peasant warlords, with an intrusion against an, albeit imperfect, democratic country. ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) please tell us more, you seem abundantly informed on this topic Invading non-democratic regimes - =d> Invading a democratic country because they removed the president you support (legally according to parliamentary protocol) - :x Can you tell the difference between the two?
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ricecrackers
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humbert wrote:ricecrackers wrote:humbert wrote:ricecrackers wrote:rusty wrote:paladisious wrote:Hardly a full scale invasion, yet. What a lot of people don't realise is that roughly half of Ukraine, the western half, is populated by Russian speakers who may see themselves just as much Russian as they do Ukrainian. That doesn't give a them a right to invade another sovereign nation does it. The western half of Ukraine belongs to as much to Ukraine as does the eastern half , and none of it belongs to Russia. were you ok with the US, Qatar and Saudi Arabia funding insurgents to overthrow Assad in Syria? were you ok with them doing the same thing in Libya, and earlier invading Iraq and Afghanistan? if not then fine, you're not a hypocrite in any way Equating action against a desiccated quasi-fascist regime, a regime run by a deranged geriatric calling for 'rivers of blood', and a regime of 6th century peasant warlords, with an intrusion against an, albeit imperfect, democratic country. ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) please tell us more, you seem abundantly informed on this topic Invading non-democratic regimes - =d> Invading a democratic country because they removed the president you support (legally according to parliamentary protocol) - :x Can you tell the difference between the two? so its ok to invade any country where its head of state was not democratically elected is your position?
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humbert
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ricecrackers wrote:humbert wrote:ricecrackers wrote:humbert wrote:ricecrackers wrote:rusty wrote:paladisious wrote:Hardly a full scale invasion, yet. What a lot of people don't realise is that roughly half of Ukraine, the western half, is populated by Russian speakers who may see themselves just as much Russian as they do Ukrainian. That doesn't give a them a right to invade another sovereign nation does it. The western half of Ukraine belongs to as much to Ukraine as does the eastern half , and none of it belongs to Russia. were you ok with the US, Qatar and Saudi Arabia funding insurgents to overthrow Assad in Syria? were you ok with them doing the same thing in Libya, and earlier invading Iraq and Afghanistan? if not then fine, you're not a hypocrite in any way Equating action against a desiccated quasi-fascist regime, a regime run by a deranged geriatric calling for 'rivers of blood', and a regime of 6th century peasant warlords, with an intrusion against an, albeit imperfect, democratic country. ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) please tell us more, you seem abundantly informed on this topic Invading non-democratic regimes - =d> Invading a democratic country because they removed the president you support (legally according to parliamentary protocol) - :x Can you tell the difference between the two? so its ok to invade any country where its head of state was not democratically elected is your position? There are, of course, other considerations, but in the main, yes. I consider all non-democratic regimes illegitimate. Do you not?
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ricecrackers
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humbert wrote:ricecrackers wrote:humbert wrote:ricecrackers wrote:humbert wrote:ricecrackers wrote:rusty wrote:paladisious wrote:Hardly a full scale invasion, yet. What a lot of people don't realise is that roughly half of Ukraine, the western half, is populated by Russian speakers who may see themselves just as much Russian as they do Ukrainian. That doesn't give a them a right to invade another sovereign nation does it. The western half of Ukraine belongs to as much to Ukraine as does the eastern half , and none of it belongs to Russia. were you ok with the US, Qatar and Saudi Arabia funding insurgents to overthrow Assad in Syria? were you ok with them doing the same thing in Libya, and earlier invading Iraq and Afghanistan? if not then fine, you're not a hypocrite in any way Equating action against a desiccated quasi-fascist regime, a regime run by a deranged geriatric calling for 'rivers of blood', and a regime of 6th century peasant warlords, with an intrusion against an, albeit imperfect, democratic country. ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) please tell us more, you seem abundantly informed on this topic Invading non-democratic regimes - =d> Invading a democratic country because they removed the president you support (legally according to parliamentary protocol) - :x Can you tell the difference between the two? so its ok to invade any country where its head of state was not democratically elected is your position? There are, of course, other considerations, but in the main, yes. I consider all non-democratic regimes illegitimate. Do you not? so the Chinese regime is illegitimate? when do you think we should invade?
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humbert
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ricecrackers wrote:humbert wrote:ricecrackers wrote:humbert wrote:ricecrackers wrote:humbert wrote:ricecrackers wrote:rusty wrote:paladisious wrote:Hardly a full scale invasion, yet. What a lot of people don't realise is that roughly half of Ukraine, the western half, is populated by Russian speakers who may see themselves just as much Russian as they do Ukrainian. That doesn't give a them a right to invade another sovereign nation does it. The western half of Ukraine belongs to as much to Ukraine as does the eastern half , and none of it belongs to Russia. were you ok with the US, Qatar and Saudi Arabia funding insurgents to overthrow Assad in Syria? were you ok with them doing the same thing in Libya, and earlier invading Iraq and Afghanistan? if not then fine, you're not a hypocrite in any way Equating action against a desiccated quasi-fascist regime, a regime run by a deranged geriatric calling for 'rivers of blood', and a regime of 6th century peasant warlords, with an intrusion against an, albeit imperfect, democratic country. ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) please tell us more, you seem abundantly informed on this topic Invading non-democratic regimes - =d> Invading a democratic country because they removed the president you support (legally according to parliamentary protocol) - :x Can you tell the difference between the two? so its ok to invade any country where its head of state was not democratically elected is your position? There are, of course, other considerations, but in the main, yes. I consider all non-democratic regimes illegitimate. Do you not? so the Chinese regime is illegitimate? when do you think we should invade? Yes, the communist regime is illegitimate. On the question of invasion, read my other post - "other considerations"
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Eastern Glory
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When Russia invaded Georgia a few years ago, it caused Ned Zelic to retire. These terrible dressers must be stopped before they commit another atrocity akin to Ned's retirement.
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Heineken
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Eastern Glory wrote:When Russia invaded Georgia a few years ago, it caused Ned Zelic to retire. These terrible dressers must be stopped before they commit another atrocity akin to Ned's retirement. Really? How so? :-k
WOLLONGONG WOLVES FOR A-LEAGUE EXPANSION!

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paladisious
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paulbagzFC wrote:I still don't understand how anyone can view this correctly, how the fuck are you allowed to breach borders in the name of defending "Russian citizens"?
If they don't like it, fuck them off back to Russia ffs.
-PB They were the same country for decades as the USSR, there was no need to tell the difference between Russian and Ukrainian citizens then obviously. Go further back towards that to the Russian Empire and the medieval states of the Kievan Rus, etc and they were still intertwined to say the least. Now, very many people in the western half of Russia are not just ethnically Russian and Russian language speakers but also Russian passport holders, like the Prime Minister of Crimea who called for Russian military support. I'm not advocating one "side" over the other, but simply saying that it's a much more rich tapestry than Country A invading Country B, and certainly much more to it than a case of telling people to "fuck off back to their own country". They're already in their own country. Fuckers on both sides have to learn to get along.
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Glory Recruit
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paladisious wrote:paulbagzFC wrote:I still don't understand how anyone can view this correctly, how the fuck are you allowed to breach borders in the name of defending "Russian citizens"?
If they don't like it, fuck them off back to Russia ffs.
-PB They were the same country for decades as the USSR, there was no need to tell the difference between Russian and Ukrainian citizens then obviously. Go further back towards that to the Russian Empire and the medieval states of the Kievan Rus, etc and they were still intertwined to say the least. Now, very many people in the western half of Russia are not just ethnically Russian and Russian language speakers but also Russian passport holders, like the Prime Minister of Crimea who called for Russian military support. I'm not advocating one "side" over the other, but simply saying that it's a much more rich tapestry than Country A invading Country B, and certainly much more to it than a case of telling people to "fuck off back to their own country". They're already in their own country. Fuckers on both sides have to learn to get along. Been doing a bit of research on this, as I'm seeing many Russians on the E net saying Ukrainians(along with Belarus) have historically been called Russians and part of Russia. Seems similar to Serbia/Montenegro Austria/Germany.
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paladisious
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Condemned666 wrote:paladisious wrote:Condemned666 wrote:One of the most depressing places in the whole world, Ukraine It's a beautiful country Its Not high on my list of destinations I'd like to visit, bro I actually did a pisstake at the bookshop this afternoon showing the lonely planet cover of Ukraine, "The Happiest Place on Earth" :lol: Although it did bring us the magic of Andrei Shevchenko You're the one missing out, bro.
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Eastern Glory
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Heineken wrote:Eastern Glory wrote:When Russia invaded Georgia a few years ago, it caused Ned Zelic to retire. These terrible dressers must be stopped before they commit another atrocity akin to Ned's retirement. Really? How so? :-k When Russia had issues with/invaded Georgia in 2008, Ned decided it was too unstable and unsafe for him (and maybe his family as well, from memory), so he left his club in Georgia and returned to Australia.
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paladisious
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Iridium1010 wrote:paladisious wrote:paulbagzFC wrote:I still don't understand how anyone can view this correctly, how the fuck are you allowed to breach borders in the name of defending "Russian citizens"?
If they don't like it, fuck them off back to Russia ffs.
-PB They were the same country for decades as the USSR, there was no need to tell the difference between Russian and Ukrainian citizens then obviously. Go further back towards that to the Russian Empire and the medieval states of the Kievan Rus, etc and they were still intertwined to say the least. Now, very many people in the western half of Russia are not just ethnically Russian and Russian language speakers but also Russian passport holders, like the Prime Minister of Crimea who called for Russian military support. I'm not advocating one "side" over the other, but simply saying that it's a much more rich tapestry than Country A invading Country B, and certainly much more to it than a case of telling people to "fuck off back to their own country". They're already in their own country. Fuckers on both sides have to learn to get along. Been doing a bit of research on this, as I'm seeing many Russians on the E net saying Ukrainians(along with Belarus) have historically been called Russians and part of Russia. Seems similar to Serbia/Montenegro Austria/Germany. Partially. They also have their own language, etc much more departed from Russia than, for example, Belarus. Point is half the country are linguistic Ukrainian and half the country and linguistic Russian, with the former the majority in the West and the latter predominant in the West and along the coast. I have friends who answer to both. For 99% of the time they get along just fine, work together, catch the metro together and marry each other. Any minority that suggests Russian speakers shouldn't be able to speak their (almost entirely mutually intelligible) language and are in some way not Ukrainian or should "fuck off back to their own country" are fucked in the head, as are any minority on the opposite side who think the Russian Federation have a right to take over Crimea and other parts of Ukraine.
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