As bad as religious nutters forcing their views and beliefs on others



Hahaha. Im not touchy. You guys ask for an explanation about these religious nut bags and i am just trying to elaborate a bit on these guys and how they are. I have dealt with these 'hardcore' guys on a personal a basis, so i m only trying to speak from experience. But i suppose you will make of it whatever you prefer.



Well done. You have caught me out. Nice work old chap. All this time i have been hiding behind a facade. I secretly support ISIS and was fully behind Man Haron Monis........

I think i should write this on a paper and stick it to your forehead, but you'll probably still not see it then. I NEVER CONDONE OR SUPPORT ANY ACTIONS FROM ANY OF THESE IDIOTIC RELIGIOUS EXTREMISTS AND WHATEVER STUPID IDEOLOGIES THEY CLAIM TO STAND FOR.

I never call Charlie Hebdo evil. I only said that perhaps our approach to dealing with these situations needs altering. If these religious nutters clearly take offence to things such as drawings of Muhammed PBUH, then why antagonise them? Why fuel the fire? Why not alter our approach and deal with it in a different way?

Maybe im too diplomatic or simple minded for this world.

Well done. You have caught me out. Nice work old chap. All this time i have been hiding behind a facade. I secretly support ISIS and was fully behind Man Haron Monis........

I think i should write this on a paper and stick it to your forehead, but you'll probably still not see it then. I NEVER CONDONE OR SUPPORT ANY ACTIONS FROM ANY OF THESE IDIOTIC RELIGIOUS EXTREMISTS AND WHATEVER STUPID IDEOLOGIES THEY CLAIM TO STAND FOR.

I never call Charlie Hebdo evil. I only said that perhaps our approach to dealing with these situations needs altering. If these religious nutters clearly take offence to things such as drawings of Muhammed PBUH, then why antagonise them? Why fuel the fire? Why not alter our approach and deal with it in a different way?

Its because their terrorists. We never surrender to terrorist's demands. We should not be ruled by someone else's retarded beliefs. They are the ones that have to change not us. They are the problem.

The western world has fought far more formidable tyranny over the last century than these knuckle draggers and we're sure as hell not gonna keel over for this rubbish.

Freedom is our religion.

You say this, yet in the same posts you mitigate their culpability by going "yeah you know what it really was your fault for publishing those cartoons".

Because then they win.

You would do so well in a fight. Your tactic will probably be, "ok, so if i punch this guy in the face, he sure as hell wont punch me back."

Be careful Zim. Do not equate the death of 12 people to a cartoon. They are not relatable and this act of violence cannot be justified by provocation. You cannot and will not be able to explain your feelings. The western world is known for its satire. A concept islam needs to understand. If they can't take a joke, it makes it even more appealing to insult.

I had a discussion after seeing your first post with a muslim friend of mine. Some points we have discussed.

- Muslims hold the prophet mohammed sacred, exceedingly more so than most westerners hold any 'being' sacred. Mohammed and jesus are not comparable in this sense.
- People do not understand and they do not think they should have to respect the sanctity of your prophet to you. At the end of the day i;m sure their view is 'it's only a cartoon get over it'.

You would do so well in a fight. Your tactic will probably be, "ok, so if i punch this guy in the face, he sure as hell wont punch me back."

Well then, by all means. Continue to insult their prophet. Ram up bringing democracy in their countries and sure enough, we will win.

Except I, nor the cartoonists, threw any punches. Are you suggesting that the insult of Mohammed deserved a "punch"?Should our society reluinquish freedom of speech/expression on the chance that someone will "punch back"? No way.

This is also quite telling of your priorities: you equate an insult of Mohammed to the murdering 12 people, as if the insult of Mohammad was anywhere near as bad as the massacre.



There you go again, victimising the terrorists.

An Open Letter to Moderate Muslims


Posted: 10/06/2014 3:17 pm EDT Updated: 12/06/2014 5:59 am EST



Let's start with what I'm not going to do.

I'm not going to accuse you of staying silent in the face of the horrific atrocities being committed around the world by your co-religionists. Most of you have loudly and unequivocally condemned groups like the Islamic State (ISIS), and gone out of your way to dissociate yourselves from them. You have helped successfully isolate ISIS and significantly damage its credibility.

I'm also not going to accuse you of being sympathetic to fundamentalists' causes like violent jihad or conversion by force. I know you condemn their primitive tactics like the rest of us, maybe even more so, considering the majority of victims of Islamic terrorists are moderate Muslims like yourselves. On this, I am with you.

But I do want to talk to you about your increasingly waning credibility -- a concern many of you have articulated as well.

You're feeling more misunderstood than ever, as Islamic fundamentalists hijack the image of Muslims, ostentatiously presenting themselves as the "voice of Islam." And worse, everyone seems to be buying it.

The frustration is evident. In response to comedian Bill Maher's recent segment ripping liberals for their silence on criticizing Islam, religious scholar Reza Aslan slammed him in a CNN interview. Visibly exasperated, he ultimately resorted to using words like "stupid" and "bigot" to make his points. (He apologized for this later.)

We'll get to Aslan's other arguments in a bit. But first, let's talk about something he said to his hosts that I know many of you relate to: that moderate Muslims are too often painted with the same brush as their fundamentalist counterparts. This is often true, and is largely unfair to moderates like yourselves.

But you can't simply blame this on the "ignorance" or "bigotry" of non-Muslims, or on media bias. Non-Muslims and the media are no more monolithic than the Muslim world you and I come from.

The problem is this: moderate Muslims like you also play a significant role in perpetuating this narrative -- even if you don't intend to.

To understand how, it's important to see how it looks from the other side.


***

Tell me if this sounds familiar:


(1) A moderate Muslim states that ISIS is wrong, they aren't "true" Muslims, and Islam is a religion of peace.

(2) A questioner asks: what about verses in the Quran like 4:89, saying to "seize and kill" disbelievers? Or 8:12-13, saying God sent angels to "smite the necks and fingertips" of disbelievers, foreboding a "grievous penalty" for whoever opposes Allah and his Messenger? Or 5:33, which says those who "spread corruption" (a vague phrase widely believed to include blasphemy and apostasy) should be "killed or crucified"? Or 47:4, which also prescribes beheading for disbelievers encountered in jihad?

(3) The Muslim responds by defending these verses as Allah's word -- he insists that they have been quoted "out of context," have been misinterpreted, are meant as metaphor, or that they may even have been mistranslated.

(4) Despite being shown multiple translations, or told that some of these passages (like similar passages in other holy books) are questionable in any context, the Muslim insists on his/her defense of the Scripture.



Sometimes, this kind of exchange will lead to the questioner being labeled an "Islamophobe," or being accused of bigotry, as Aslan did with Maher and his CNN hosts. This is a very serious charge that is very effective at ending the conversation. No one wants to be called a bigot.

But put yourself in the shoes of your non-Muslim audience. Is it really them linking Islam to terrorism? We're surrounded with images and videos of jihadists yelling "Allahu Akbar" and quoting passages from the Quran before beheading someone (usually a non-Muslim), setting off an explosion, or rallying others to battle. Who is really making this connection?

What would you do if this situation was reversed? What are non-Muslims supposed to think when even moderate Muslims like yourselves defend the very same words and book that these fundamentalists effortlessly quote as justification for killing them -- as perfect and infallible?

Like other moderates, Reza Aslan frequently bemoans those who read the Quran "literally." Interestingly enough, we sort of agree on this: the thought of the Quran being read "literally" -- or exactly as Allah wrote it -- unsettles me as much as it unsettles Reza.

This is telling, and Reza isn't alone. Many of you insist on alternative interpretations, some kind of metaphorical reading -- anything to avoid reading the holy book the way it's actually written. What message do you think this sends? To those on the outside, it implies there is something lacking in what you claim is God's perfect word. In a way, you're telling the listener to value your explanations of these words over the sacred words themselves. Obviously, this doesn't make a great case for divine authorship. Combined with the claims that the book is widely misunderstood, it makes the writer appear either inarticulate or incompetent. I know that's not the message you mean to send -- I've been where you are. But it is important to understand why it comes across that way to many non-Muslims.

If any kind of literature is to be interpreted "metaphorically," it has to at least represent the original idea. Metaphors are meant to illustrate and clarify ideas, not twist and obscure them. When the literal words speak of blatant violence but are claimed to really mean peace and unity, we're not in interpretation/metaphor zone anymore; we're heading into distortion/misrepresentation territory. If this disconnect was limited to one or two verses, I would consider your argument. If your interpretation were accepted by all of the world's Muslims, I would consider your argument. Unfortunately, neither of these is the case.

You may be shaking your head at this point. I know your explanations are very convincing to fellow believers. That's expected. When people don't want to abandon their faith or their conscience, they'll jump on anything they can find to reconcile the two.

But believe me, outside the echo chamber, all of this is very confusing. I've argued with Western liberals who admit they don't find these arguments convincing, but hold back their opinions for fear of being seen as Islamophobic, or in the interest of supporting moderates within the Muslim community who share their goals of fighting jihad and fundamentalism. Many of your liberal allies are sincere, but you'd be surprised how many won't tell you what they really think because of fear or political correctness. The only difference between them and Bill Maher is that Maher actually says it.

Unfortunately, this is what's eating away at your credibility. This is what makes otherwise rational moderate Muslims look remarkably inconsistent. Despite your best intentions, you also embolden anti-Muslim bigots -- albeit unknowingly -- by effectively narrowing the differences between yourselves and the fundamentalists. You condemn all kinds of terrible things being done in the name of your religion, but when the same things appear as verses in your book, you use all your faculties to defend them. This comes across as either denial or disingenuousness, both of which make an honest conversation impossible.

This presents an obvious dilemma. The belief that the Quran is the unquestionable word of God is fundamental to the Islamic faith, and held by the vast majority of Muslims worldwide, fundamentalist or progressive. Many of you believe that letting it go is as good as calling yourself non-Muslim. I get that. But does it have to be that way?

Having grown up as part of a Muslim family in several Muslim-majority countries, I've been hearing discussions about an Islamic reformation for as long as I can remember. Ultimately, I came to believe that the first step to any kind of substantive reformation is to seriously reconsider the concept of scriptural inerrancy.

And I'm not the only one. Maajid Nawaz, a committed Muslim, speaks openly about acknowledging problems in the Quran. Recently, in a brave article here right here on The Huffington Post, Imra Nazeer also asked Muslims to reconsider treating the Quran as infallible.

Is she right? At first glance, this may be a shocking thought. But it's possible, and it actually has precedent.


***

I grew up in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, before the Internet. We had an after-school tutor who taught us to read and recite the Quran in classical Arabic, the language in which it's written.

My family is among the majority of the world's 1.6 billion Muslims -- concentrated in countries like Indonesia, India, Pakistan, Turkey and Iran -- that doesn't speak Arabic. Millions of us, however, can read the Quran in Arabic, even if we don't understand it.

In most Muslim households, the Quran is physically placed at the highest place possible. In our house, it was at the top of a tall bookshelf. It cannot be physically touched unless an act of ablution/purification (wudhu) is first performed. It cannot be recited or touched by menstruating women. It is read in its entirety during the Sunni taraweeh prayers in the holy month of Ramadan. In many Muslim communities, it is held over the heads of grooms and brides as a blessing when they get married. A child completing her first reading of the Quran is a momentous occasion -- parties are thrown, gifts are given.

But before the Internet, I rarely met anyone -- including the devoutly religious -- who had really read the Quran in their own language. We just went by what we heard from our elders. We couldn't Google or verify things instantaneously like we do now.

There were many things in the Quran we didn't know were in there. Like Aslan, we also mistakenly thought that harsh punishments in Saudi Arabia like decapitation and hand amputation were cultural and not religious. Later, we learned that the Quran does indeed prescribe beheadings, and says clearly in verse 5:38 that thieves, male or female, should have their hands cut off.

Now, there are also other things widely thought to be in the Quran that aren't actually in there. A prominent example is the hijab or burka -- neither is mentioned in the Quran. Also absent is stoning to death as a punishment -- it's mentioned in the hadith (the Sunnah, or traditions of the Prophet), and even in the Old Testament -- but not in the Quran.

Neither male nor female circumcision (M/FGM) are found in the Quran. Again, however, both are mentioned in the hadith. When Aslan discussed FGM, he neglected to mention that of the four Sunni schools of jurisprudence, the Shafi'i school makes FGM mandatory based on these hadith, and the other three schools recommend it. This is why Indonesia, the largest Muslim country in the world, mostly Shafi'i, where Aslan said women were "absolutely 100% equal" to men, has an FGM prevalence of at least 86%, with over 90% of families supporting the practice. And the world's largest Arab Muslim country, Egypt, has an FGM prevalence of over 90%. So yes, both male and female genital cutting pre-date Islam. But it is inaccurate to say that they have no connection whatever to the religion.


***

That is the kind of information I could never reliably access growing up. But with the Internet came exposure.

Suddenly, every 12-year-old kid could search multiple translations of the Quran by topic, in dozens of languages. Nothing was hidden. It was all right there to see. When Lee Rigby's murderer cited Surah At-Tawbah to justify his actions, we could go online and see exactly what he was talking about. When ISIS claims divine sanction for its actions by citing verse 33 from Surah Al-Maaidah or verse 4 from Surah Muhammad, we can look it up for ourselves and connect the dots.

Needless to say, this is a pretty serious problem, one that you must address. When people see moderates insisting that Islam is peaceful while also defending these verses and claiming they're misunderstood, it appears inconsistent. When they read these passages and see fundamentalists carrying out exactly what they say, it appears consistent. That's scary. You should try to understand it. Loudly shouting "Racist!" over the voices of critics, as Ben Affleck did over Maher and Sam Harris last week, isn't going to make it go away.

(Also, if you think criticizing Islam is racist, you're saying that all of Islam is one particular race. There's a word for that.)

Yes, it's wrong and unfair for anyone to judge a religion by the actions of its followers, be they progressive Muslims or al Qaeda. But it is appropriate and intellectually honest to judge it by the contents of its canonical texts -- texts that are now accessible online to anyone and everyone at the tap of a finger.

Today, you need to do better when you address the legitimate questions people have about your beliefs and your holy book. Brushing off everything that is false or disturbing as "metaphor" or "misinterpretation" just isn't going to cut it. Neither is dismissing the questioner as a bigot.

How, then, to respond?


***

For starters, it might help to read not only the Quran, but the other Abrahamic texts. When you do, you'll see that the Old Testament has just as much violence, if not more, than the Quran. Stoning blasphemers, stoning fornicators, killing homosexuals -- it's all in there. When you get about ten verses deep into Deuteronomy 20, you may even swear you're reading a rulebook for ISIS.

You may find yourself asking, how is this possible? The book of the Jews is not much different from my book. How, then, are the majority of them secular? How is it that most don't take too seriously the words of the Torah/Old Testament -- originally believed to be the actual word of God revealed to Moses much like the Quran to Muhammad -- yet still retain strong Jewish identities? Can this happen with Islam and Muslims?

Clearly from the above, the answer is a tried-and-tested yes. And it must start by dissociating Islamic identity from Muslim identity -- by coming together on a sense of community, not ideology.

Finding consensus on ideology is impossible. The sectarian violence that continues to plague the Muslim world, and has killed more Muslims than any foreign army, is blatant evidence for this. But coming together on a sense of community is what moves any society forward. Look at other Abrahamic religions that underwent reformations. You know well that Judaism and Christianity had their own violence-ridden dark ages; you mention it every chance you get nowadays, and you're right. But how did they get past that?

Well, as much as the Pope opposes birth control, abortion and premarital sex, most Catholics today are openly pro-choice, practice birth control, and fornicate to their hearts' content. Most Jews are secular, and many even identify as atheists or agnostics while retaining the Jewish label. The dissidents and the heretics in these communities may get some flak here and there, but they aren't getting killed for dissenting.

This is in stark contrast to the Muslim world where, according to a worldwide 2013 Pew Research Study, a majority of people in large Muslim-majority countries like Egypt and Pakistan believe that those who leave the faith must die. They constantly obsess over who is a "real" Muslim and who is not. They are quicker to defend their faith from cartoonists and filmmakers than they are to condemn those committing atrocities in its name. (Note: To their credit, the almost universal, unapologetic opposition against ISIS from Muslims is a welcome development.)


***

The word "moderate" has lost its credibility. Fareed Zakaria has referred to Middle Eastern moderates as a "fantasy." Even apologists like Nathan Lean are pointing out that the use of this word isn't helping anyone.

Islam needs reformers, not moderates. And words like "reform" just don't go very well with words like "infallibility."

The purpose of reform is to change things, fix the system, and move it in a new direction. And to fix something, you have to acknowledge that it's broken -- not that it looks broken, or is being falsely portrayed as broken by the wrong people -- but that it's broken. That is your first step to reformation.

If this sounds too radical, think back to the Prophet Muhammad himself, who was chased out of Mecca for being a radical dissident fighting the Quraysh. Think of why Jesus Christ was crucified. These men didn't capitulate or shy away from challenging even the most sacred foundations of the status quo.

These men certainly weren't "moderates." They were radicals. Rebels. Reformers. That's how change happens. All revolutions start out as rebellions. Islam itself started this way. Openly challenging problematic ideas isn't bigotry, and it isn't blasphemy. If anything, it's Sunnah.

Get out there, and take it back.


___________________


Except I, nor the cartoonists, threw any punches. Are you suggesting that the insult of Mohammed deserved a "punch"?Should our society reluinquish freedom of speech/expression on the chance that someone will "punch back"? No way.

This is also quite telling of your priorities: you equate an insult of Mohammed to the murdering 12 people, as if the insult of Mohammad was anywhere near as bad as the massacre.

There you go again, victimising the terrorists.

Well, its really worked wonders for you guys until now. Gotta love all that democracy floating around in the air. Keep up the good work.

The western world dominates the planet. You bet its worked wonders for us. We're not gonna change for something like this.

You have a bad habit of reading only what you want and then twisting the words to mean what you want. I never said the insult of Muhammed deserved a punch. I am mereley stating that if you know for a fact there are idiots in the world who take offence to these things, why antagonise them. ONCE AGAIN. I DO NOT JUSTIFY THEIR ACTIONS OR HAVE ANY REASON TO DO SO. I am just saying, why antagonise them.

Once again, learn to read further up. I already said in reply to belesmore that I did not equate the two.

The thing is, you will never ever be able to understand the reverence held for Muhammed PBUH by Muslims. Hence you view a cartoon as him as just a bit of fun.



I NEVER BLOODY VICTIMISE THEM. LEARN TO READ AND UNDERSTAND!!!!!!!



I am going to end with something I read by one of the Islamic scholars on this shooting. I think it summarises how 99.9% of Muslims feel about this incident and how Islam views the incident:

"Contrary to what was apparently said by the killers in the shooting of the Charlie Hebdo headquarters, it is not the Prophet Muhammed PBUH who was avenged, it is our religion, our values, and Islamic principles that have been betrayed and tainted. My condemnation is absoute and my anger is profound (healthy and thousand times justified) against this horror!!!

Allow me to express my deep sympathy and sincere condolences to the families of the victims. "

In trying to say you don't agree with the terrorists actions you keep throwing in lines that kind of justify their actions too.

On a different tangent...

Activists over generations have tried for years to change western values and function.

Protest no longer holds sway. A democratic protest to - 'stop invading Arab nations' or to 'stop demeaning the prophet' will not work.

They have decided to use terror and fear as their motivator. The west -through mainstream media- perpetuate and add to the problem with wall to wall coverage.

The solution can never be to ignore it but uneducated and misguided people can and do copycat for attention/notoriety.

It is a delicate balance because the west does perpetuate the 'radicalist' stereotype.

There must be some western institutions that all people from all nations still respect... they are the ones we need to leverage for change. In this instance i mean 'change' as a term for ending the cycle of violence and hatred.

Edited by quichefc: 9/1/2015 08:55:07 AM

You guys know that i am what you would term a moderate muslim. I have many a time said I do not support Isis or any of these idiotic organisations claiming to fight in the name of Islam. Damn I've watched family guy make jokes about islam, I've heard comedians do it. I've seen cartoons, yet barely battered an eye.

But lets just think about this for a second. You know that there are idiots in this world who react to cartoons or attacks against their religion. Why then continue to poke the monster? These attacks have come about because of continuous attacks against the Prophet Muhammed PBUH and Islam. So why continue to do it? Why not just take a step back and stop for a moment. I am all for freedom of expression. But seriously guys, there comes a point when its just stupidity. Cartoons have always brought out these stupid extremists with the same results. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result

I work in the media. I have many times gone against certain islamic views and challenged certain religious leaders and their teachings.

You need to understand just how revered Prophet Muhammed PBUH is in Islam. Until you understand that, you wont understand why Muslims take offence to it. You all come here with your athiest views about ignoring it and just letting it be, but that just smacks of pure ignorance towards people who choose to be religious or choose to have a faith.

You guys bang on about Religious idiots, but the atheists are just as bad.

I take offense that you take offense to my athiest views. Now what?

I go out and commit mass murder in the name of logic and rationale? Oh, please.... save your religious nonsense for the afterlife.

That is the point i made earlier. You can't take someone as sacred as Prophet Muhammed PBUH, make satire and jokes about him, and then tell a nation to get over it. It just doesn't work that way. The world is not ideal, so hoping for this ideal, 'get over it, its just a joke' kind of response is never going to work. I don't expect you to hold him sacred to me. But you must understand, the prophet PBUH mentioned that as Muslims from 'his nation', we must defend him when he is ridiculed and made a mockery.

Unfortunately groups like ISIS took his words, misconstrued it and left out the parts where he said, to defend him through actions of good deeds, good moral conduct, kindness, compassion, and tolerance.

That would be the difference. You assume that everyone has had the same upbringing and educational opportunities that perhaps you have. But maybe think that someone who has none of that, coming from a country where they are bombed and oppressed, and being told by some extremist nutter that he can get his own back. He now has a cause to which he belongs and work towards. Not the right cause, but he has one.

Its the same in South Africa. People ask why crime is rampant, a lot has to do with the lack of education to the masses after independence. Crime gets them out.

That would be the difference. You assume that everyone has had the same upbringing and educational opportunities that perhaps you have. But maybe think that someone who has none of that, coming from a country where they are bombed and oppressed, and being told by some extremist nutter that he can get his own back. He now has a cause to which he belongs and work towards. Not the right cause, but he has one.

Its the same in South Africa. People ask why crime is rampant, a lot has to do with the lack of education to the masses after independence. Crime gets them out.

most of those loonies are western born and bred and educated.

That would be the difference. You assume that everyone has had the same upbringing and educational opportunities that perhaps you have. But maybe think that someone who has none of that, coming from a country where they are bombed and oppressed, and being told by some extremist nutter that he can get his own back. He now has a cause to which he belongs and work towards. Not the right cause, but he has one.

Its the same in South Africa. People ask why crime is rampant, a lot has to do with the lack of education to the masses after independence. Crime gets them out.

Reports are now coming in of a shooting in a Jewish shop in south-eastern Paris. French media say a hostage has been taken at the Jewish shop at Porte de Vincennes in Paris. There are suggestions that the gunman may be the one who shot dead a policewoman on Thursday. Police are now evacuating the area.

most of those loonies are western born and bred and educated.