There is no way the Chinese league is even close to the Russian Premier league. FFS the Chinese can't even beat an A-League side

The Chinese league despite a few stupid buys has not improved.

Edited by tsf: 21/3/2016 02:27:39 PM

In the ACL this year Australian HAL teams have beaten the C League teams by adhering to very sound tactical plans that have come off.

The individual quality of some of the Chinese imports, some whose names escape me, can turn a game with one act of individual brilliance at any given point in time. Or the combination of two of them can split a defence apart in a flash. Few players in the HAL, if any, are anything like this calibre.

We've also been fortunate to play them whilst at the end of our season and at the beginning of their season in the ACL. For SFC and MV to win/draw their games, everything has gone to plan with the game plan prescribed by the coaches.

So far, apart from Arnie employing an unfamiliar formation and giving Zac Anderson his first start of the year in the ACL in one game, he and Muscat have probably out-coached their ACL opposition coaches too. Plus a bit of luck has gone the way of the HAL teams.

Given the performance of the Russian team I saw in the Euro qualifiers, I'd surmise they would be similar quality as a collective unit, to Australia, South Korea or Japan.

I saw S Korea or Japan play them off the park in a recent World Cup ( South Africa or Brazil), but were worse in their defensive and attacking penalty boxes.

Ditto Greece versus South Korea or Japan. Greece had little control of the game, but were a bit lucky, like Russia, and were better in their attacking and defensive penalty boxes.


Individually there are four criteria in evaluating players:

* Technique

* Game Sense

* Communication

* Football conditioning.


Then one need to look at the team unit and how cohesive it is.

The technical quality, and game sense/vision, of some of those C League players, exceeds anything we have in the HAL. Haven't some of them been recruited from La Liga and EPL clubs in the prime of their careers?

For Aussies playing in the C League, it must be a challenge playing against 3 or 4 of this calibre of player per team?

Don't underestimate that the Chinese started ACL campaigns straight out of pre season. Also these ACL games have been amongst the first they have played with new team mates etc. I was initially pretty surprised with the results against HAL teams exception being Shandong and Adelaide but our teams are fully battled hardened.

Dan_The_Red

Apologies for taking a while to respond to your considered post. Here we are now



Probably, yes. There are exceptions but you'd imagine Luongo's technical development was complete before he went to Spurs. By the way, these perceptions do not belong to me. Ask anybody with coaching expertise. The latest age by which, I've heard, technical development should be finished is around 16. I've heard earlier. This isn't something arbitrary that I've made up. I vaguely recall Benjamin and others on this forum say much the same.

There are exceptions, but in the vast majority of cases, it should be fairly cut and dried by then.



All of what you are saying is predicated upon the premise that there's some profound psychological difference between Australian children and those from other countries.

You need to establish that this is, in fact, the case before you can proceed with your argument.

I'm no psychologist but I doubt it stands up.

The only thing I will say to support your hypothesis is that perhaps kids from countries with higher levels of poverty and stronger football cultures (e.g. Brazil, Uruguagy, etc.) are psychologically better predisposed to succeed in football anywhere on the planet. However, overall, there oughtn't to be any profound psychological difference between children from Australia, the States, Europe, etc.



This made me laugh. I have said all along that the academies for these clubs are very international. Plenty of players who developed in a club outside their native country have done well. I have cited a handful of examples. If I had the time, I could cite many more.

I have further backed up my argument by pointing out that 25% of Liverpool's academy (at least according to their website) is made up of non-British players.

If we look at other clubs, we'll find much the same thing.

These guys do just fine. There's no reason why Australian ones shouldn't.



Maybe we just don't send enough over in the first place? If we send more over, the rate of success will be higher.



Scarcely any better than the majority of average Australian graduates who make it into the A-League and do bugger all. Worse because at least it was, at one point, possible that some of those players you mentioned might become world class.

It didn't work out but football's a tough game. If they stay in Australia, it severely limits their ceiling of potential and they're automatically disadvantaged because they're constantly playing with and against mostly mediocre players. Whereas their European counterparts are playing with and against world class players.

The Australian-based ones have almost no chance of progressing further than being an average player at a mid-tier European team. They're so far beneath the trajectory of those who go to the right European clubs at a young age. If they go young, they have a chance of getting to the level of key player at a club in the knock-out stages of the European Champions League.



Au contraire, good example. Have you never heard of Nick Bollettieri's tennis academy?



Except the Socceroos have, themselves, been somewhat average over the last few years. Some of the better players now are the ones who left early. You could also argue that there might be a slight bias in favour of those who have gone through the state-sponsored structures. This, for logistical reasons, could be said to occur at NT level. At youth level, there has previously been a strong bias in favour of products of our youth system. It's hardly surprising. Most organisations (varying in degrees of corruption) will favour those whom they developed namely to justify their own existence.



What superiority complex. It's called taking a step back and looking at it dispassionately rather than getting defensive about the A-League.

If there was a superiority complex it would be supported by the fact that footballers brought up at European academies have done substantially better than their Australian counterparts.

I have all the proof in the world. Australian footballers are human beings like European and South American ones. There's no difference between them in terms anatomy or physiology. They are capable of doing exactly the same things.

How many many world class footballers have been products of the Australian pathway, the A-League, etc.?

How many world class footballers have been products of European pathways?

Plus, the four best/most influential Australian footballers went to Europe in their mid teens.

There's your proof.

lets see them do it first...

after a couple years the ghuanzhou imports looked fat and slow. their game is nowhere near what it was when they started.

Goulart ain't too fat or slow.

elkeson got moved on - i saw him earlier this year and he looked like luke wilkshire.

and conca. ok it was shanghai - but elkeson is ex GE

Edited by inala brah: 21/3/2016 11:10:30 PM

shit got real...



this photo makes me happy!

If there wasn't a Caltex symbole, I'd be in a good mood about it too.

It was cringeworthy when they were the Qantas Socceroos. But at least Qantas is the flagship carrier.

"On ya, California-Texas Socceroos"

Really?

are you going to pay their bills?

sand is not currency ;)

Edited by inala brah: 22/3/2016 01:13:02 AM

Jedinak going all Ned Kelly on us. Did he break his nose or something?

king jedinak..

Why should a brand pay it? It should be funded by the government. It's our national team. Not everything should go to commercial interests.

Australia spent $1.1 billion in the first 10 months of the 2014-15 financial year on keeping refugess offshore, and they can't fund an extra 5-10 million on our national team?



Edited by tsf: 22/3/2016 11:48:12 AM

There's a hell of of a lot priorities in society before sport

I've reviewed the play for the Socceroos against Jordan up to the 25 minute mark.

One poster who saw the game live thought Milligan's game was off. From viewing the game so far, the passing, and receiving from the quartet of Milligan, Kruse, Mooy and Rogic, in the attacking half of he pitch, I cannot remember ever being as good in the past for the Socceroos, going back 40 years.

Even in the GG with Bresc, Dukes, Kewell, Culina and Grella on the pitch a the same time, the two footedness, ball carrying, shielding, constant diagonal passing and receiving, accuracy of passing, attacking cohesion with each other, I'm not sure has been equalled for the Socceroos.

Cahill has barely touched the ball at this stage. Australia has only 4 shots, with Cahill scoring, Rogic forcing a fingertip save and Leckie missing yet another 2 shots. He has now scored 2 goals from about 80 shots on goal in his Socceroo career.

Leckie has been abysmal when Australia has the ball with a number of ball losses and unforced errors. Yet his off the ball work in ball winning has been outstanding.

If the Socceroos had Burns on instead of Leckie they would've tormented Jordan even more. At this stage of the game, Jordan has worked very hard maintaining a compact defence, but the pressure they've been under has been considerable.

It is also interesting to compare Mooy and Rogic. Mooy just gets through so much more work - defensively and in an attacking sense. Rogic is capable of one bit of individual brilliance more than Mooy, but Mooy's output is so great over a sustained period.

The good news for all of us Rogic fans is his engine and work rate has improved though his Celtic sabbatical. As long as Ronny Deila says there, Rogic is developing nicely. Rogic's tackling, shoulder barging, heading, tracking back, is improving, despite making a few mistakes.

He also uses his right foot better than he used to . Moreover, he tackles off the correct foot, unlike some of his teammates who always use their preferred foot, which means the wrong body shape in some scenarios.

I also think Kruse is enjoying playing with this trio - Mooy, Milligan and Rogic.

Once again I have to agree with Frank Frank how good Kruse is. Without doubt he is the best winger we have. He seems to have gone to another level.

Kruse is as athletic and quick as Leckie, but can run with the ball at great speed and balance, maintaining control, somewhat like Kewell could.

I agree with just about all that Ange does.

However, there are two things that are an enigma.

Leckie - against England who will have a go at us and play a high line, he will probably yet again be excellent. Against Asian teams who defend deep and compactly hoping to hit us on the break, he is just not worthy of place in the starting eleven.

Jedinak - against teams who have more possession of the ball against Australia, he will probably do well, as he does in the EPL with Crystal Palace.

Against Teams like Jordan, who sit back and defend compactly, Milligan is just so much better. Milligan is still improving.


Leckie and Jedi, despite playing in the biggest leagues, are being outperformed in some tactical scenarios by players playing in lower leagues.

Conversely, Ryan and Kruse are really showing the benefits of playing top European football in any scenario for Australia.




Edited by Decentric: 5/4/2016 09:11:29 AM

Edited by The Fans: 5/4/2016 09:31:23 AM

That is true, however your brain is much more plastic when you are younger. Your ability to develop or improve technical skills will decrease as you age.

I would argue that technique is due to natural ability (inherited traits?) - unless you are referring to how you are raised as a child (environment, motor skills etc. you are exposed to at a young age). You can naturally have the ability to be tall or strong, but technique is always learned.

Edited by Bjljones1: 5/4/2016 09:37:08 AM

There is a reason why the FFA created the SAP programs across the country at the key age group of 9-13 as this age group is where the kids learning can be accelerated quickly i.e motor learning skills, as australian football our biggest weakness is in technique, with SAP it will address our deficiencies for this.

Still there is no reason you cant you learn technique after 14 but the reality it gets quick hard and your playing catch up, the younger you start the better.

Learning to play a piano or learning technique in football it applies the same principles.

I was planning on coming up with a more detailed analysis later.

You are correct, plasticity is greater when you are younger. But it continues, remarkably, even into old age.

I think you have made a mistake somewhere there. Technique is learned, correct. but the degree to which you can learn and the speed of learning is reliant on inheritable characteristics. Exceptional coordination for example is a prerequisite for exception football skill.

Speed of learning inheritable? I'm not sure, if you have a disability that affects your cognition then yes. Otherwise I think the conditions you are raised in definitely affect your speed of learning and cognition (neuroplasticity like you said - brain has huge ability to change including speed of learning/intelligence etc).

Good point on ageing. That is why it is so important to continue to exercise and keep challenging the brain into old age (avoid alzheimer's).

Edited by Bjljones1: 5/4/2016 03:46:51 PM

yes speed of learning in a particular area is strongly influenced by inheritable traits absolutely.

For example if 2 people of the same (biological) age who have never played chess before practice chess for the same amount of time, the one who is more intelligent will learn much quicker.

Same with football skills. Two people of the same (biological) age who have never played soccer before practice juggling (or anything), the person with the best natural coordination will learn much quicker.

Conditions you are raised in definitely help with motor skills and so forth 100%, but even given exactly the same external environments babies and young children display huge variations in coordination and speed of learning purely because of genetics.

Ok, that's pretty interesting.

Can you link me any research?

I know muscle fibre type is inherited and brain mass can be inherited as well, but haven't heard much about motor skills.

double post

Edited by Bjljones1: 5/4/2016 07:46:21 PM

I would like to, i'm enjoying this conversation, but i can't really be bothered sorry.

In saying all that stuff, success is probably more determined by delayed gratification (practice) than anything else.

Anyone able to predict how the rankings may change and thus impact the seedings for the final draw? Is it going to be possible to avoid South Korea and Japan ? Iran are leading atm not sure how though....

yeah iran stays top and we are second so in the same pot as iran. south korea and japan are 3 and 4 so in the same pot, can't remember the others. there is a thread somewhere about it.

There it is http://au.fourfourtwo.com/forums/default.aspx?g=posts&t=115259

Edited by The Fans: 6/4/2016 09:28:08 AM

Irvine playing better than anyone even Rogic it appears as he's the SPL player of the month.... has to be close to a call up? he can bloody play RB also!!!

I'm at the 52 minus mark against Jordan.

Milligan, Mooy, Rogic and Kruse have been excellent. They appear to thrive playing with each other.

Cahill has converted his few opportunities from few touches on the ball. I think Cahill's goal craft is still improving.

This quintet have been Australia's best players by far, with a chasm between them and the rest of the team in this game. The number of outstanding first touches they've made under pressure has been very impressive. They always seem to be shielding the ball in tight space just after receiving.

In Rogic's and Kruse's case they have constantly received under great pressure, but beaten their man by breaking the line and running into space.

I think it is a case of Milligan's pinpoint passing with such good weighting at diagonal angles, constantly giving Mooy and Rogic the opportunity to make further decisive passes into the likes of Kruse to do further damage.

Milligan and Mooy lift by playing with better players at national team level than their club teammates. Milligan's cohesion with Mooy is really good. If they played in the same team in the HAL, they would do serious damage.

Leckie has resorted to giving the ball to superior technical players to play.

Risdon, Smith, have made heaps of mistakes, but show promise.

Importantly, Risdon is the only full back we've had for years who is an effective tackler when a player runs at him with the ball at his feet. He jockeys effectively, then reads and times the tackle well. I cannot remember another Socceroo full back for some time who can do this.

Wright has lost a lot of 1v1s for a CB. He has been a lot better off the ball than on it.

Sains has improved as the game has gone on.

In his games for the Socceroos, Wilko 's mistake free game at CB, greatly exceeds Sains and Wright's against Jordan. The Socceroos need at least one of the experienced Spira or Wilko as a CB.




Edited by Decentric: 6/4/2016 09:59:16 AM

Rogic is our special player.

There is simply no alternative.

There are plenty of grafters like Irvine.

I think we need to hold off on the back patting for the moment. The real test is yet to come.