I've been addressing your question directly since the beginning.

I already explained overseas players and Australian players are different because of their culture and upbringing hence it's not an apt comparison. I never said this difference between them makes Australian player incompatible with overseas youth systems. I'm saying this difference is why Australia doesn't produce many world class players period no matter which pathway they take

Hence why both the A-league and overseas teams haven't produced any world class Australian players in the last decade or so...

instead of giving me an answer on why overseas clubs haven't produced an Australian world class player or even a regular player in one of the top 4 leagues since the A-league inception if its so superior in terms of developing Australians.

Higashi

I'll do my best to answer your post in as much detail as I can.



Let's break this down. I'm saying that because Australians are members of the human race, just like Europeans, South Americans, Africans, etc., there's no real reason Australians cannot succeed in Europe (leaving aside the difficulties usually, but not always, faced by those without EU passports).

I've further argued that this notion is supported by the fact that other Australians have overcome the cultural differences before when they've moved to Europe young. I've further argued that footballers from other cultures and destinations, far from Europe, have also managed to deal with the cultural difference at European clubs compared to where they're from. I've cited Christian Pulisic and Lee Seung-woo as examples.

Plenty of other Aussies have spent long periods of time away from home in other sports a young age and done just fine.

So we have other people from other nations, and (admittedly to a lesser extent even) Australians, managing to deal with the cultural jump at a young age. This makes it increasingly unlikely that there's a particularly cultural factor making it more difficult for Aussies than those from other nations. Why specifically just Aussies?

The onus is on you to prove there is. And then even if you were able prove it, it would tell us that Aussies would need to toughen up in order to be able to be successful at the highest level in football.

Also, worth pointing out that the being a particular nationality doesn't define your character. Speaking, as somebody who grew up (mostly) in Australia, I grew up around Australians of all different personalities.



My understanding of your argument was that because of differences in culture and upbringing, Australians aren't well-suited to acclimatising in foreign youth systems sufficiently well to have a chance of developing into world-class footballers.

That was basically what you seemed to be saying in your previous posts. To suggest so hardly amounts to a strawman argument. But feel free to make your position crystal clear.



This, in itself, doesn't quite account for it, though. Culture has a lot to do with it (but not the type of culture to which you were referring). I.e. being shocked by the culture shock that living in Europe (and away from family a lot of the time) doesn't quite account for it (at least not in general, it will for some but not across the board). What hurts us is a lack of footballing culture in Australia. So we're talking about a different type of culture.

I think the best recipe for as many of the best footballers as possible is to have football as the cultural dominant and to have the infrastructure and pathways in place to get the most out of players. We're taking about a culture in which football dominates the landscape (basically in the way that AFL dominates the landscape of VIC/WA/SA/TAS). Football needs to be the thing that people think of and talk of all the time (short of when they're dealing with really severe things).

You see this in various European countries. I haven't been to South America, but I'm told it's the same (or even more dominant there). Do you have a connection with Japan, Higashi?

We lived in Tokyo for a few years when I was a kid (and my Dad still goes there a lot and speaks the language like a native). The Japanese seem to channel so much of their emotional energy (and there's a lot of it) to football. They're building a football culture. They also have the pathways. Now they're getting the quality of players in the quality leagues.

If you want sustained success, you need culture + infrastructure.

Australia lacks the culture. It's very difficult for football to compete with the other codes. The infrastructure is improving. But it's not good enough for us to be able to get the best out of our players. That's why I suggest the best of the best go to Europe young.

Arthur talks about the importance of culture. I don't wish to misrepresent his views but I seem to recall him saying there was some cultural attribute the Golden Generation had (perhaps to do with their parents) which may have really spurred them on and ensured they learnt how to play football properly?



Not world class, no.

I'd argue that Jackson Irvine, for example, is about as promising as Australia's other players, except Rogic. Also Brad Smith is as good or better than his A-League developed counterparts. Mass Luongo is sort of a bit of a product of both, I guess? He's a Tottenham youth product, isn't he? The Ikon is decent, too.

Why aren't there any world-class players? In part because too many gone to the wrong places. It's possible to become world-class by way of developing in England. Increasingly so now; Patrick Roberts, Delle Ali, Marcus Rashford, etc. But I still think the proportion of top-rate talented footballers emerging from Belgium, Holland and Germany is higher.

The trouble is not so many Aussies have gone there at young enough ages, imo.

And then maybe the sample space, overall, of Aussies at European clubs from a young age isn't big enough for us to be producing world-class talents?

Finally, I think Australian football needs a real shot in the arm. I think we need another Kewell, Viduka (or better). That's one of things that gets enthusiasm. Australians like big names. That will garner support. This will lead to the biggest flow-on effects for the A-League. Also, if we get a quality striker and learn how to defend better, then we'll have a hope of going far in World Cups. And NOTHING will get support like that.

But, at present, Australia's only likely to get that if some of our footballers turn out to be world class. And their best chance is to go to Europe young.

Higashi

I'll do my best to answer your post in as much detail as I can.



Let's break this down. I'm saying that because Australians are members of the human race, just like Europeans, South Americans, Africans, etc., there's no real reason Australians cannot succeed in Europe (leaving aside the difficulties usually, but not always, faced by those without EU passports).

I've further argued that this notion is supported by the fact that other Australians have overcome the cultural differences before when they've moved to Europe young. I've further argued that footballers from other cultures and destinations, far from Europe, have also managed to deal with the cultural difference at European clubs compared to where they're from. I've cited Christian Pulisic and Lee Seung-woo as examples.

Plenty of other Aussies have spent long periods of time away from home in other sports a young age and done just fine.

So we have other people from other nations, and (admittedly to a lesser extent even) Australians, managing to deal with the cultural jump at a young age. This makes it increasingly unlikely that there's a particularly cultural factor making it more difficult for Aussies than those from other nations. Why specifically just Aussies?

The onus is on you to prove there is. And then even if you were able prove it, it would tell us that Aussies would need to toughen up in order to be able to be successful at the highest level in football.

Also, worth pointing out that the being a particular nationality doesn't define your character. Speaking, as somebody who grew up (mostly) in Australia, I grew up around Australians of all different personalities.

My understanding of your argument was that because of differences in culture and upbringing, Australians aren't well-suited to acclimatising in foreign youth systems sufficiently well to have a chance of developing into world-class footballers.

That was basically what you seemed to be saying in your previous posts. To suggest so hardly amounts to a strawman argument. But feel free to make your position crystal clear.

This, in itself, doesn't quite account for it, though. Culture has a lot to do with it (but not the type of culture to which you were referring). I.e. being shocked by the culture shock that living in Europe (and away from family a lot of the time) doesn't quite account for it (at least not in general, it will for some but not across the board). What hurts us is a lack of footballing culture in Australia. So we're talking about a different type of culture.

You see this in various European countries. I haven't been to South America, but I'm told it's the same (or even more dominant there). Do you have a connection with Japan, Higashi?

Not world class, no.

I'd argue that Jackson Irvine, for example, is about as promising as Australia's other players, except Rogic. Also Brad Smith is as good or better than his A-League developed counterparts. Mass Luongo is sort of a bit of a product of both, I guess? He's a Tottenham youth product, isn't he? The Ikon is decent, too.

Why aren't there any world-class players? In part because too many gone to the wrong places.

Agreed with everything Decentric said, our bpo was poor at times, and bpo transition slow. Physicality and speed could be improved although time and again we've been told not to worry about that and they are features of our players that can improve later. a fast countering team we've usually used these attributes to shepherd attackers to the line, but this time we couldn't. This was also made more obvious by our high wingers, and the fact that the Vietnamese were faster across the turf than us in many positions.
I know everyone is hyping Roberts up, but I think he has many aspects of his game that could be worked on before I get truly excited. Once he has those down then he can be a more complete striker, as right now I worry that he could come to rely to much on his strength and power and not work to further improve his first touch, 1v1, heading, positioning
D'arrigo, Italiano, Valenti, our number 3 (name?) all stood out for me as well. The subs moric? And m...? Also impressed, but it is a hard judge because everyone was running on fumes by then.
As a team we lacked any aerial threat. Apart from d'arrigos free kick we lacked dead ball threat. In fact from corners we were not that effective at all.
I thought we were the better team, but like Decentric said there are still a lot of areas to improve. We should calm down and remember just because we beat Thailand and Vietnam on penalties, after conceding six goals, that our youth development is hold and the A-leagues future is going to be on par with holland, Portugal or Croatia

Who won the 3rd place game between Thailand vs Cambodia and what was the scores thanks.

physiological or anatomical trait isn't the issue, culture and upbringing is...

I already explained overseas players and Australian players are different because of their culture and upbringing hence it's not an apt comparison.

I'm of Hong Kong descent but have relatives living in Japan with Japanese spouses. I was studying Japanese when I first came up with that username.

They're all promising players but none have yet to establish themselves within the first team in a side in a top 4 league, and there's no guarantee they will. Smith is the closest one but his achievements still pales in comparison to an injury plagued Robbie Kruse. At this point in time the A-league's development record is still superior, which suggests players going overseas as young an age as possible isn't the right solution.

This isn't just a problem overseas based player have though. There's right and wrong places for Australian players to go in the A-league as well. It's no secret some clubs are better than others at developing players and some players have struggled for one team and thrived in another. Mooy being the best example after his time at WSW then MC. If the A-league's development record is still better, it suggests once again players going overseas as young an age as possible isn't the right solution.

The difference between world class overseas players and Australian players isn't their physiology, anatomy, mental strength, or ability to adapt to European culture, it's the quality they're already at by the time they sign their first professional European contract, and this is the result of their countries' culture and upbringing.

Even if a player does get into an overseas reserve side the gulf in intensity and competitiveness between reserve and senior football is just too massive. They're not going to improve as fast as someone actually playing and training with senior players and getting instructed by a senior coach. If a player, and not just young but older ones as well, isn't close to European first team quality they're more likely improve sooner and faster by getting first team football by playing in the A-league.

Hence I disagree with you and believe it's counterproductive if every young player just went overseas as soon as possible.

Agreed with everything Decentric said, our bpo was poor at times, and bpo transition slow. Physicality and speed could be improved although time and again we've been told not to worry about that and they are features of our players that can improve later. a fast countering team we've usually used these attributes to shepherd attackers to the line, but this time we couldn't. This was also made more obvious by our high wingers, and the fact that the Vietnamese were faster across the turf than us in many positions.
I know everyone is hyping Roberts up, but I think he has many aspects of his game that could be worked on before I get truly excited. Once he has those down then he can be a more complete striker, as right now I worry that he could come to rely to much on his strength and power and not work to further improve his first touch, 1v1, heading, positioning
D'arrigo, Italiano, Valenti, our number 3 (name?) all stood out for me as well. The subs moric? And m...? Also impressed, but it is a hard judge because everyone was running on fumes by then.
As a team we lacked any aerial threat. Apart from d'arrigos free kick we lacked dead ball threat. In fact from corners we were not that effective at all.
I thought we were the better team, but like Decentric said there are still a lot of areas to improve. We should calm down and remember just because we beat Thailand and Vietnam on penalties, after conceding six goals, that our youth development is hold and the A-leagues future is going to be on par with holland, Portugal or Croatia

have to say respect for vietnam

May not play a possession based game they aren't exactly parking the bus and playing hoofball but they have good technique, good finishers, well organized in defence and so far have been decent sports. Its been about 4 years in a row where vietnam have looked like improving at youth level. Wonder if we will see them improve at senior level soon?

^ Every point you just made you've, I've refuted before, and your just repeating yourself. Instead of arguing against them you keep pulling sentences out of context, make strawman arguments, and ignore the points that directly refute your claims.

Edited by Higashi: 24/7/2016 11:07:41 PM

Schoolboy sport young guns under pressure

July 25 2016 - 12:00AM
James Melouney

Schoolboy athletes and their parents get "hoodwinked" by talent agents, says Sydney's Newington College head David Mulford. Photo: Supplied
It's a misty Saturday winter morning. Around the country, school teams gather to compete. Rugby. League. Football. AFL. Rowing. Tennis. Squash. You name it, competition is in the air.

By late afternoon, students, parents and schools will celebrate their wins and lament their losses.



And although tens of thousands of children compete across age groups and divisions, the First teams get all the press, because that's where the stories of triumph and tragedy, fame and failure, talent breeding and talent snatching emerge.

Among the firsts is the allure of fame, wealth and celebrity accruing to players recruited by professional codes. "Whispers of greatness and potential elite level achievements are made to boys and parents," says Dr David Mulford, headmaster of Sydney's Newington College.


Joeys' strapping lads: St Joseph's College 1st XV rugby team. Photo: John Flitcroft
But the reality of recruitment to a professional sports' feeder program can include injury, loneliness and boredom alongside intense pressure, despite few recruits 'kicking on' to the big leagues.

"The harsh reality is that most boys do not make the elite level, many get burnt out early and many suffer from injuries sustained by excessive amounts of physical and contact activity at a young age," Dr Mulford recently blogged. "Some fall for the traps on taking short cuts to achieve certain 'body shapes'. This is all happening as boys are maturing physically at different rates and going through massive hormonal changes.


It's not just rugby and league: football talent scouts seek top players from key schools. Photo: Supplied
"Most sports have talent identification programs. They often go for volume rather than for the absolute elite," Mulford says. "Boys and parents get hoodwinked into thinking their boys will go on to a representative level or high income-earning sport and tend to overspecialise far too young. There are player agents for 12 year olds."

Take rugby union alone: Each year just 23 players are selected for the Australian Schoolboys' team. Since 1969, 170 Wallabies have come from the schoolboys' system. Of those 170, 143 were educated at independent schools. But of the 23 boys selected annually, just three are expected to reach national level.

In most mens' professional sports, talent agents and recruiters are paid a commission for each boy they sign to a feeder program or team, and will urge boys to specialise and sign up.

Key independent schools have long been nurseries, with scholarships for talented sports players, alongside top-notch training, coaches and facilities. Inter-schools rivalry runs deep and there's prestige in both winning and having alumni go on to professional success. But it would be churlish to think schools are reaping what they have sown. The recruiters and 'whisperers' seeking to convince boys to focus on one sport alone, at a young age, are a problem.

"We are not interested in what I call 'hot housing' kids," says Sydney's St Joseph's College headmaster, Ross Tarlinton. "Say you have a good soccer player or league or union or cricketer. Some [recruiters] say, 'Let's concentrate the rest of the school time on cricket or tennis,' or whatever it might be, whereas we want boys to play a range of sports at school."

The allure of professional sport can also lead some boys to take shortcuts to achieve a particular physique.

"I call it 'bigorexia.' A good diet and physical regime is better than taking shortcuts," says Mulford.

"We live in a society where supplements are readily available. We don't condone it. We are concerned about the long term psychological and biological effects. It is certainly a worry," says Tarlinton.

Some boys do reach elite sports levels. And schools play an important role in that development. "Schools are about providing all sorts of pathways, whether they are academic pathways or other work-related pathways, and sport is a legitimate pathway. For some kids, and it's very few kids, if they have the [athletic] skills we would recognise that just as if they had the skills of a gifted musician or mathematician," says Tarlinton.

But regardless of whether students pursue politics, business, arts or sport, balance is both the challenge and the opportunity.

"You've got to have other strings to your bow, to keep options open. If for injury, or interest, or lack of talent, you need an alternate pathway, academic or vocational. It's dangerous relying on sport as the only source," says Mulford.

Striking that balance isn't easy. "We had a boy who almost made the Olympics. He's up every morning swimming from 4am to 7am, then coming to school. How do we get the balance in his work? We had to work hard to get the right balance there … something has to give."

For the few, school sport is the beginning of an exciting journey. For the many, it's a vital part of a well-rounded education, and helps develop character and resilience. As each misty Saturday winter morning rolls around, that's worth remembering.

Spotters on the sidelines

Wimbledon's prize pool exceeds £28million ($49m). The winning Champions League team pockets €15 million ($22m).

Talented girls are recruited and trained to elite levels in key sports, however the big money is in mens' sport.

In November, the NRL announced a five year, $1.8b broadcast rights deal with Fox Sports and the Nine Network.

Here's who is scouting from the sidelines at top independent schools' sports meets.

Rugby

The Australian Rugby Union runs talent "discovery days," for 12-16 year olds and has a national network of player-agents seeking players aged 15-21. Scouts identify players for the ARU Pathway to Gold program, an umbrella for the Junior Gold Cup (U15s, U17s), National Schoolboy Championships (U18s), Australian Schoolboy team, National U20 Championships, and Australian U20s team. Pathway to Gold recruits gain access to coaching, strength and conditioning plans, life-skills programs, and training-playing gear.

League

More than 100 league-accredited player-agents scour city and country for talent.
Players can begin as early as ages 3-5 in the NRL Munchkin League pilot program. For children aged 5-12, PlayNRL hosts school holiday clinics. The NSWRL Harold Matthews Cup (U16), SG Ball Cup (U18), QRL Connell Cup (U16) and Meninga Cup (U18) are elite league talent programs in NSW-QLD. Football

Football

Football Federation Australia administers the National Youth League (ages 16-21), a development and reserve league for National Premier League and A-League clubs, and also for the U17, U20, and U23 national teams (Joeys,Young Socceroos, Olyroos). The PS4 Pathway Player Award connects the National Premier League with the A-League. Talent scouts select 24 NPL players aged 16-20 for a two-day training camp. The top player here goes on to trial with the Sydney FC Youth team.

AFL

Talent and development is formalised in the NAB Rising Stars program. Children aged 5-11 participate in AFL Auskick. Scouts for the AFL Lions and Swans academies target 12-14 year olds. Regional development squads, AFL centres of excellence, and AFL state academies seek players aged 15-16. Players aged 17-18 can join the AIS-AFL academy, a 12-month accelerated development scholarship program.

Rowing

Rowing Australia, with state associations and clubs, has the State Talent Pathway Program (STPP) and pilot Talent Pathway Club Program (TPCP). The STPP schools pathway targets ages U18-20. Each state rowing association selects one or two schoolboy and school girl teams to compete at interstate and national meets.

Tennis

Tennis Australia searches for the best U12 players through Project Talent. Top school players are scouted in the Bruce Cup (U12) and the Pizzey Cup (U18). Other talent paths are the Junior Development Series, Junior Tour (including the National Junior Championships), and the ITF Junior Circuit, which comprises more than 300 tournaments in 115 countries.

Cricket

Cricket Australia and School Sports Australia are behind the MILO in2CRICKET (ages 5-8), MILO T20 Blast (ages 7-12) and CA Pathway Rookie (ages 14-17) programs. Players are scouted for the Australian U16 team during the SSA U15 championships and for the U18 Talent Camp and Australian U19 program during Cricket Australia's U17 and U19 championships. Scouts also identify players for the 17-member National Performance Squad, which tours India and Sri Lanka as part of a three-month intensive winter program.

I'm sick of reading walls of diatribe arguing against points I didn't make.

My point from the start is that the A-league doesn't produce world class Australian players is an irrelevant criticism because neither has an overseas reserve side since the A-league's inception

[Australian footballers] don't receive the same footballing upbringing and aren't exposed to the same footballing culture by the time they turn professional.

:lol: thank you mcjules. thank you.

Took me a while to work out what you meant :lol: You're welcome!