All three of you need to stop this shit.

Seriously every fucking time.

All of you, enough.

Stop. Immediately. This shit is unnecessary don't be a fucking child.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Real mature socawho. Again spesk ill of my family you will be deslt with by the mods . Also im married with 3 kids and 3 csrs and a house . Im happy and yet here you are talking shit to a me whilst you live at home . Grow up

You seem to have a short memory
As I recall you told me to fuck off and die recently...so go eat a dick
Otherwise ignore my posts or use mcjules filter plugin if you don't like what I'm saying.
You just start shit with me then play the victim to try and get me banned.
I know how you work

Edited by Socawho: 26/7/2016 05:24:59 PM

I told you to die? Come again? I seem to recall you called me you called me out because my wife is bosnian and that i shouldn't talk about what the bosnianiaks went thru. Yeh make yourself the victim

No more of this shit. If someone attacks your family don't escalate it, report it.

well this thread got derailed.....
back on topic

of all the terrorist attacks over the last few years how many have been from immigrants? Nearly all were born in a western country. That speaks of an alienation of a community that is making them open to propaganda. Shutting down muslim immigration would definitely add to that alienation. Seeing a bikini on the beach might be annoying to a muslim but the level of crazy it takes to listen to violent propaganda saying muslims are violently oppressed after seeing a bikini is much much higher than the level of crazy it takes if your community is marginalised.
If it took that level of crazy to cause a terror attack, well all communities have their crazies but we will be in a much better position

Add to that that it is wrong to marginalise a community anyway. ...

If muslims get banned from immigration I would expect more terrorist attacks from muslim australian citizens not less. Thats not even taking into account the moral problem of discriminating that way

Edited by grazorblade: 26/7/2016 05:51:16 PM

The problem is much bigger than "margilisation" in western countries, islamic extremists come from all over the world, the bulk of which come from muslim majority countries, so I disagree the problem is coming from "margilsation"

Further more many other groups can claim to margilsation, the difference being they arent killing in the name of god.

Still no closer to knowing the decision on Herbert.

Looks like we could be going back to vote again smh.

-PB

edit: Wrong thread. Got my big countries named with A mixed up.

Edited by notorganic: 27/7/2016 08:15:08 AM

Labor up by 35 votes at the moment which is an improvement on last time. Clive Palmer won by 53 votes last election and the Libs didn't challenge it so there's a chance that it'll stand. I think there'd be a fair bit of backlash if they did challenge it for a technicality.

It's more a look at whether or not they'll send it to Disputed Returns over the soldier vote etc.

AEC were asked to comment about it but I haven't heard anything since last week.

-PB

Look, there is some responsibility on the host nation to assist in integrating new arrivals.

However, what if the culture, the religion and the way of life of those new arrivals is simply not compatible with the that of the host nation? A trait of Islam is to want to change the host-therein lies the problem.



Absolutely.

But that could have been prevented if there was an honest and open discussion about the source of immigrants in the first place...

The situation is now too far gone. Even the French leader has come out and said living with terrorism is now unavoidable. Acts of terror will continue to be perpetrated.

Over the course of thousands of years, the world has had national borders to prevent incompatible societies from mixing for well established reasons. (Actually ignoring history is something s that really shits me about the left-that somehow *they* and only they know better and the past is irrelevant. A world without borders is and always will be a hippy pipe dream.

There has to be more to it than "alienation". You might say aboriginals and black africans are far more marginalised than Muslims but they are not going around detonating bombs. Perhaps alienation is a factor, but it is a cause or an effect or radical Islamic ideology? It will be difficult for the mainstream community to accept people who cover their faces, believe homosexuals and apostates should be executed, and that the west are at fault for all the bad things happening in the middle east, so if alienation combined with ideology is pushing people towards terrorism then it begs the question of whether it is counter productive to resettle these people? I dont buy the rhetoric that if we stop resettling these people then it will cause more terrorism, the key is to having confidence in the muslims already here and the new ones we bring in, and if continue to bring in radicals that dont accept our values and attack us then it undermines that social cohesion and confidence which is the catalyst for alienation, and viscous cycle ensues. Im not advocating a blanket ban on Muslims , just more stringent character checks to assess whether the people we resettle are going to participate in our democracy and buy into Team Australia values. If the Islamic community cant accept this sensible sovereign right of ours then im afraid our relations are beyond fractured.

Edited by rusty: 27/7/2016 10:50:47 AM

Moral problem!?

Let's frisk Gran and her walking cane or little 5 year old Jenny at the airport rather than racially profile a group of people known to be more likely to commit terrorist acts. God forbid you'd ever want to discriminate against anybody because they might take offence.

Frankly I am rather chuffed that when I get on a plane risk assessment has been applied in a non-discriminatory way.

I know I feel safer when I see pensioners and little children get tested for explosives and frisked.

You have to ask yourself what's worse. A plane blown up or a group or people mildly offended for committing the 'crime' of being hirsute and swarthy.

And of course there's more to it than alienation. Their religion.

The apologists refuse to see it. Not all religions are equal and to quote Sam Harris "Islam is the motherlode of bad ideas".

Discrimination and alienation is a factor in terrorism, it's not the only factor and I don't think grazorblade believes that to be the case. I took his comments as his opinion on the effectiveness of blanket banning immigration of muslim people. Of course not mentioning in every post that "Islam is the worst religion in history" leaves you open to being an "apologist" and a bunch of other people that try and act tough as if they're "doing something to fix things".

thats right it is a factor and one of the few factors we can control unfortunately.

The way it is a factor is the degree of crazy it takes to believe violence is justified

picture crazy is a spectrum with everyone somewhere on the spectrum and above a certain threshold you are willing to do violence. Dylan roof in the usa was a terrorist in the sense that he was idealogically motivated to violence. But it took a higher level of crazy - and the guy really was insane- to believe that black folk were oppressing white folk. On the flipside a Marine who appeared to have all his marbles committed a terrorist act against police officers because well it takes a lot lower level of crazy to do what he did because of african american marginalization in this case due to police brutality.

Muslim alienation isn't nearly as bad as aboriginal or african american alienation but still the level of crazy it takes to commit a terror attack is lower than it could be

Frisking muslim "looking" people at airports more often than grandma probably happens anyway but isn't the major cause of alienation. The frisking of grandma is probably just a show to give the appearance of equality anyway. Something like that is a small source of alienation that barely registers as a mild irritation (although anything can be a straw that breaks the camels back I suppose including the bikini example given before but still the bigger loads are the problem)

some major sources of alienation in the muslim community are
1. copping racial verbal and physical abuse
2. job discrimination
3. Rumours being spread about what they believe
4. If a parent is an immigrant and a crappy parent the child's immigration status might mean they go without welfare while going through school and this can cause them to meet and mingle with some bad influences (this I have seen personally)

One thing that isn't being discussed is the other ways to lower terrorism. One way which we have already implemented is gun control. The Lindt shooter had a crappy gun and only killed a couple*. Perhaps there is nothing that can be done about the following but I'd welcome a discussion on
1. better intelligence practice (I know little about this)
2. the theological influence of theocracies (I can't think of a logistically and ethically sound action to address this)
3. the role of left and right wing conspiracy in terrorist thinking (conspiracy theories by the left and right to attack each other can be used in terrorist propaganda to prove that the west is evil. Perhaps socially discouraging conspiracy theory is a small thing people can do)


*The fact that the Lindt shooter was pretty crazy might be a good sign that muslim alienation in Australia isn't as bad yet as it is in other countries

This argument would have more power if they were the only group facing discrimination and alienation. I think that's why there is a negative reaction to this point. It's so easy to say "well why aren't Africans who are forced to sell key rings on the streets of Paris" blowing people up"?

Oh yes, you're right there.

Aboriginals are even more marginalized.

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2016/07/25/4504895.htm

[size=9]SHAME ON AUSTRALIA. [/size]

Next time anyone say's anything about Greece, Turkey or even Putin's Russia, I am literally going to laugh in their face!

These are very serious violations of human rights if you ask me.

That is even before we address racism, and Australia is a racist country. 100%

Even in Sport! Even the FFA and A League. It's a racist set up.

The way people get jobs. Academics changing their Muslim or Ethnic Names to Smith and Jones or other variations.

BROKEN COUNTRY. POLITICALLY BROKEN AND NO HR!

Edited by Aikhme: 27/7/2016 12:21:38 PM

Whatever happened to rehabilitation and compassion? Even if these kids broke the law, I don't blame them at all as much as I blame Australian society.

If some kid breaks the law, all well and good. Punish them after due process but don't take away their dignity and don't make them even more angry and detached. Educate the poor bastards. Make them go to school. Give them compassion, understanding, clothing, food, and give them counselling. Make them better, and don't fuck with them or their brains.

What the fact is all this about?

Edited by Aikhme: 27/7/2016 12:30:03 PM

Only a fool would say that alienation is the cause of terrorism but if you want less of the new generation born in europe to pursue a radical path then you surely must look social factors such as racism and marginalisation, even if the Muslim leaders make your job hard.
If you are from Europe then you will know that there is so much racism and bigotry. Living in Australia you cannot imagine how widespread it is, against all sorts of ethnicities and minor groups.
Some times the resentment will build up and manifest in petty crime, sometimes riots, sometimes much worse.

There is racism and bigotry everywhere. For some reason people seem to think it's more abhorrent when white people/westerns are guilty of it.

Do potential employers need to employ muslims first to ensure they're not marginalised or alienated?

How do you actually stop them being marginalised? Make saying mean things illegal?

Exactly. Muslims are special cases apparently according to Grazor and others. If you ask me that's patronising garbage.

Can't believe how many people want to make excuses for this behaviour.

I got flogged as a kid, how come I'm not blowing shit up?

Bloody oath resentment is building up.

Australia is as racist as the best of them. A very sick and broken country with no compassion or dignity.

I am European. I feel racism and have been a victim, obviously not as much as Aboriginals, or Muslims and other groups. It's more under the table kind of racism. It's institutionalized and people don't see it unless you fall victim to it.

Today, I called the AEC and told them I want forms to remove myself from the electoral rolls in protest. They couldn't argue with the reasons I gave because they know that what I said is TRUE!

I literally feel ashamed. Not in my name will I participate because that makes me as bad as those criminal prison guards.

Sorry, but Australia is way behind Europe and most Western Countries.

In Greece, people are sharing their groceries with Syrian Refugees. and our young people are swimming out to sea to save people from capsized and very dangerous boats.

I'm sorry, but Australia is not that great of a country. Total trash!

Edited by Aikhme: 27/7/2016 12:56:04 PM

Shut up whitey, check your privilege.

I have to qualify that i'm not saying that discrimination doesn't exist, it 100% does.

People are trying to rationalise this behaviour and spread culpability rather than calling a spade a spade. The reality is that the people carrying out these attacks are hiding behind a violent, draconian religion to attack innocent people because they're too weak to sort their lives out.

Sorry for not checking my privilege before saying this but no one hands you anything on a silver platter.

How to stop it?
It takes years, generations likely. An example is the very slowly improving attitudes to toward the Roma in Europe. These people are not saints, many have contributed to their poverty but the way they have been treated as one group - broadly discriminated against is terrible. If people refuse to employ those who looking for work then how do they ever incorporate into society? Nobody wins. But through more public awareness, attitudes are improving.

Good post grazor.

What are your thoughts on the proposal to detain people if there is evidence to show they are likely to be involved in terrorism. Personally I think that law could potentially help but it'd have to be written properly to avoid abuse.

I find this a very unusual comment if you are from Europe and not my experience at all thankfully. Maybe childhood nostalgia for Greece. MAybe you didnt see the racism in Greece because you fit in?