Which is why I'll speak in generalities rather than explicits.

The first thing they need to do is stop blowing smoke up every kid's arse and cull the SAP program back by at least half.  There is FAR too much dead wood involved in SAP and a severe lack of intensity.  

If we want to get better as a country they need to set the bar WAAAAY high and keep it there and select only the very best and not just make up the numbers with whoever.  

Can't kick with both feet, not selected, can't trap a ball, not selected, can't take a first touch, not selected, no drive, no determination, wrong attitude, not selected, lack of intensity in training, booted out..

Establish right off the bat, in writing, what are the expectations and minimum standards of players at certain ages that are trialing for these teams.  

Be extremely harsh.

For example I'm involved in coaching 3 SAP sides (and overseeing other SAP age groups) andt taking just one age year for example these kids could easily be culled by one half without any effort at all.  It would distill the talent, create competition for places, harden kids up, raise the standard and create in the mind of the kids and the parents an expectation of excellence.

Instead of the best of the best you get a melange of kids that show 'promise' and 'potential' and a waste of resources, time and vast amounts of money from conned parents.

I have said this before 11 twelve year olds that play for fun on a concrete pitch court in Bosnia would wipe the floor of kids playing in a 13's, 14's SAP team hands down every day of the week.

I have my suspicions as to why the SAP programs and the like are so lackadaisical towards selecting players that aren't good enough.

Let's take a squad of 12 players in the under 13's for example.  There are 3 squads, each kid's parents pays at least $650.  That's $23 400 in the coffers.  Half of those kids shouldn't be there.  But given the cash involved are they going to run one team ($7 800) or three(23 400)?  Well you do the math.

Take the NTC's that are in Coffs coming up and that I'll be at for the week.  There are 27 teams.  Each team has what 15 players?  Each kid pays, depending on subsidies, somewhere between $1500 and $3000 to attend.

Taking the lower bound amount that's 27 teams x 15 players x $1500 = $607 500.  That's right more than half a million bucks at a minimum.  (Deduct some for expenses and you still have yourselves a nice little earner.)

And here's the rub right.  There are no teams from Sydney playing because every other team attending would have their arses kicked by those teams. (And I guarantee you half or more of those kids will not be anything approaching elite level.  I'll even provide you a little bit of video if you so desire.)

So here's the thing Mr Jonsnow.  The FFA have, and are, creating and fostering a pyramid of mediocrity.  Your kid is at the pointy end of that pyramid and I don't know which kid he is but it is plain to anyone with a set of eyes that the standard of the players and their technical skills are simply not high enough.

I love how someone made a comment of how the Japanese system wouldn't work for us because they're culturally different.  Well maybe yes, maybe no.  

Until we say to the kids and their parents THIS IS THE STANDARD WE EXPECT or you won't get selected this is what we will have to accept as the best that we can offer.  Getting are arses handed to us by 3rd world countries.

I know a kid in the under 16's playing at the moment.  I don't know what has happened to him in the past year but he appears not to have progressed one iota from when I last watched him. (If anything the poor lad has gone backwards.)  It could be a myriad of reasons and I'm hoping it's not the COE but given what's on show it could very well be.

If you're OK with how it all runs at the moment then you're part of the problem.

Which is why I'll speak in generalities rather than explicits.

The first thing they need to do is stop blowing smoke up every kid's arse and cull the SAP program back by at least half.  There is FAR too much dead wood involved in SAP and a severe lack of intensity.  

If we want to get better as a country they need to set the bar WAAAAY high and keep it there and select only the very best and not just make up the numbers with whoever.  

Can't kick with both feet, not selected, can't trap a ball, not selected, can't take a first touch, not selected, no drive, no determination, wrong attitude, not selected, lack of intensity in training, booted out..

Establish right off the bat, in writing, what are the expectations and minimum standards of players at certain ages that are trialing for these teams.  

Be extremely harsh.

For example I'm involved in coaching 3 SAP sides (and overseeing other SAP age groups) andt taking just one age year for example these kids could easily be culled by one half without any effort at all.  It would distill the talent, create competition for places, harden kids up, raise the standard and create in the mind of the kids and the parents an expectation of excellence.

Instead of the best of the best you get a melange of kids that show 'promise' and 'potential' and a waste of resources, time and vast amounts of money from conned parents.

I have said this before 11 twelve year olds that play for fun on a concrete pitch court in Bosnia would wipe the floor of kids playing in a 13's, 14's SAP team hands down every day of the week.

I have my suspicions as to why the SAP programs and the like are so lackadaisical towards selecting players that aren't good enough.

Let's take a squad of 12 players in the under 13's for example.  There are 3 squads, each kid's parents pays at least $650.  That's $23 400 in the coffers.  Half of those kids shouldn't be there.  But given the cash involved are they going to run one team ($7 800) or three(23 400)?  Well you do the math.

Take the NTC's that are in Coffs coming up and that I'll be at for the week.  There are 27 teams.  Each team has what 15 players?  Each kid pays, depending on subsidies, somewhere between $1500 and $3000 to attend.

Taking the lower bound amount that's 27 teams x 15 players x $1500 = $607 500.  That's right more than half a million bucks at a minimum.  (Deduct some for expenses and you still have yourselves a nice little earner.)

And here's the rub right.  There are no teams from Sydney playing because every other team attending would have their arses kicked by those teams. (And I guarantee you half or more of those kids will not be anything approaching elite level.  I'll even provide you a little bit of video if you so desire.)

So here's the thing Mr Jonsnow.  The FFA have, and are, creating and fostering a pyramid of mediocrity.  Your kid is at the pointy end of that pyramid and I don't know which kid he is but it is plain to anyone with a set of eyes that the standard of the players and their technical skills are simply not high enough.

I love how someone made a comment of how the Japanese system wouldn't work for us because they're culturally different.  Well maybe yes, maybe no.  

Until we say to the kids and their parents THIS IS THE STANDARD WE EXPECT or you won't get selected this is what we will have to accept as the best that we can offer.  Getting are arses handed to us by 3rd world countries.

I know a kid in the under 16's playing at the moment.  I don't know what has happened to him in the past year but he appears not to have progressed one iota from when I last watched him. (If anything the poor lad has gone backwards.)  It could be a myriad of reasons and I'm hoping it's not the COE but given what's on show it could very well be.

If you're OK with how it all runs at the moment then you're part of the problem.

Thats all very interesting Muz, what SAP program do you coach  in they are lucky to have you?

If there are no teams from Sydney at the national titles where do the NSW metro teams come from? 

Another goodie

Why they technically so strong? You can thank Tom Byer for that who has introduced the importance of learning technique and repetition of learning technique in the ages of 3-6, the thing is he doesnt teach the kids alone he educates of the parents of those the kids the importance of learning the basics and the right habits of the game at a very young age like what they do in the world class nations.
As he says culture eats coaching for breakfast!
And now he is trying to replicate the same in China, these countries understand the importance of having a strong grassroots foundation unlike us where we think development starts at the age of 9 like with SAP but where it should start by the time they could walk which Tom Byer has done in Japan is unbelievable they were nothing 20 years ago and look at them now. 
If the FFA are not careful and naive which i think they are already! They should seriously get on the phone to Tom Byer and ask for his opinion on how to fix our football i think he may know the answer, it all starts from the very start which we always get it wrong and by the time they hit their teens its too late.

We are killing them, created some many opportunities we could be up by 5 or 6 goals up at HT.

I met Tom Byer a few weeks ago B4L when he visited Melbourne, impressive individual with some simple yet revolutionary philosophies. It was great meeting with and talking to him it was good to reaffirm my philosophy of football development and where we are going wrong.
He already has a program in Sydney and soon to be in Melbourne.

Which is why I'll speak in generalities rather than explicits.

The first thing they need to do is stop blowing smoke up every kid's arse and cull the SAP program back by at least half.  There is FAR too much dead wood involved in SAP and a severe lack of intensity.  

If we want to get better as a country they need to set the bar WAAAAY high and keep it there and select only the very best and not just make up the numbers with whoever.  

Can't kick with both feet, not selected, can't trap a ball, not selected, can't take a first touch, not selected, no drive, no determination, wrong attitude, not selected, lack of intensity in training, booted out..

Establish right off the bat, in writing, what are the expectations and minimum standards of players at certain ages that are trialing for these teams.  

Be extremely harsh.

For example I'm involved in coaching 3 SAP sides (and overseeing other SAP age groups) andt taking just one age year for example these kids could easily be culled by one half without any effort at all.  It would distill the talent, create competition for places, harden kids up, raise the standard and create in the mind of the kids and the parents an expectation of excellence.

Instead of the best of the best you get a melange of kids that show 'promise' and 'potential' and a waste of resources, time and vast amounts of money from conned parents.

I have said this before 11 twelve year olds that play for fun on a concrete pitch court in Bosnia would wipe the floor of kids playing in a 13's, 14's SAP team hands down every day of the week.

I have my suspicions as to why the SAP programs and the like are so lackadaisical towards selecting players that aren't good enough.

Let's take a squad of 12 players in the under 13's for example.  There are 3 squads, each kid's parents pays at least $650.  That's $23 400 in the coffers.  Half of those kids shouldn't be there.  But given the cash involved are they going to run one team ($7 800) or three(23 400)?  Well you do the math.

Take the NTC's that are in Coffs coming up and that I'll be at for the week.  There are 27 teams.  Each team has what 15 players?  Each kid pays, depending on subsidies, somewhere between $1500 and $3000 to attend.

Taking the lower bound amount that's 27 teams x 15 players x $1500 = $607 500.  That's right more than half a million bucks at a minimum.  (Deduct some for expenses and you still have yourselves a nice little earner.)

And here's the rub right.  There are no teams from Sydney playing because every other team attending would have their arses kicked by those teams. (And I guarantee you half or more of those kids will not be anything approaching elite level.  I'll even provide you a little bit of video if you so desire.)

So here's the thing Mr Jonsnow.  The FFA have, and are, creating and fostering a pyramid of mediocrity.  Your kid is at the pointy end of that pyramid and I don't know which kid he is but it is plain to anyone with a set of eyes that the standard of the players and their technical skills are simply not high enough.

I love how someone made a comment of how the Japanese system wouldn't work for us because they're culturally different.  Well maybe yes, maybe no.  

Until we say to the kids and their parents THIS IS THE STANDARD WE EXPECT or you won't get selected this is what we will have to accept as the best that we can offer.  Getting are arses handed to us by 3rd world countries.

I know a kid in the under 16's playing at the moment.  I don't know what has happened to him in the past year but he appears not to have progressed one iota from when I last watched him. (If anything the poor lad has gone backwards.)  It could be a myriad of reasons and I'm hoping it's not the COE but given what's on show it could very well be.

If you're OK with how it all runs at the moment then you're part of the problem.

We are killing them, created some many opportunities we could be up by 5 or 6 goals up at HT.

Barca4Life

The are aspects of the Japanese system which Australia can, realistically, look to emulate. Things related to technical stuff, yes, to an extent. But it's just on another planet culturally. The level of dedication in the place is off the charts. It's such that it's easy to get kids to repetitive things in ways no reasonable person in most other parts of the world would ever consider.

We'd be better off looking at Iceland's rather successful system for cultural things. We'd find more in common with them culturally than we would with Japan (and no idea what we have in common culturally with Iceland except that Nordic folk tend to be both professional and easy-going, which we tend to be too, although not as much as Kiwis).

A city of 5 million (in a state of 7 million) gets 2 teams in a national championship.  Point made.

The other Metro side (NNSW) are the Emerging Jets.

Look whatever.  If you blokes think everything is fine and dandy then that's your prerogative.

Jon asked what I thought and I obliged.  You don't have to agree, in fact most won't.



Goal Oz.  Well in.  Good start.

Great football.

I'll just focus on the highlighted part. I don't for a second suggest not setting the bar high. I agree completely with that. And I don't know enough about the SAP (I think that's what you're referring to), frankly. I don't know to what extent not making that programme restricts a young footballer's progress in state youth sides, Australian youth sides and national youth league sides.

I will say this about elite programmes. While the bar should be set high (and there may be too many, I don't know), it can waste talent for elite programmes to rule out footballers for lacking one particular component (even if it's crucial). For example, if a young footballer isn't particularly two-footed but is technically brilliant with, say, his right-foot and is very hard-working and gutsy, I don't think he should be punished. The programme should address his lack of two-footedness, not punish him. For all we know, he might have far more talent and resilience than other footballers who are more balanced but not quite as strong in specific areas.

But I agree that it's terrible if there's a scheme by which only those whose parents can afford to pay the fees have a chance. And it's also bad if the system basically says "right you do things our way or you can jog on". We don't watch punishment for individualism.

Far and away, Tom Rogic is Australia's most gifted senior footballer. Why? Partly because he's utterly different to all the others and does things very differently. He doesn't play football as Australians have tended to. We shouldn't punish people for thinking differently. It should be encouraged. The system should set up a general level of competence and teach the fellas to be familiar with a particular system which is tactically adept. But the system should, in equal measure, encourage individualism.

You just have to listen to Mesut Özil talk about the dynamic between the German side of his football and the Turkish side. He has been brought up in the German system and can play in a fashion conducive to it. But his flair comes from his Turkish side. It seems the German system allows for this individualism and encourages it. The Germans haven't tried to shut down the creative aspects of his football. Good on them.

Maybe that's where Australia is getting it wrong? Perhaps they haven't finetuned the system, they're not handling the psychology of coaching well enough the pathways are both too restrictive and the focus on the system has created a false dichotomy which results in the shutting down of more individual aspects of football and athletic ability?

I, personally, don't know the system well enough at the minute. This is conjecture, on my part, on the basis of looking at all the opinions out there (and weighing them up).

Thats a good point which i probably wasnt aware of, they do have a different culture to us in terms of how they bring their kids up in their country, same can be said also in Korea, China and maybe some southeast asian nations too.
Maybe thats why they technically so good and so well disciplined as they do lots of repetition at the very young ages in almost anything really not just football but it also can mean they also get too robotic which we can take advantage of and make our experience more fun and creative for our younger players.
I just think someone like Tom Byer can offer some suggestions on how we can do things better maybe not like Japan but still something different, no doubt their is room for improvement at grassroots level. 

I didnt say if i agreed or disagreed. 

I am confused now, so there are teams from Sydney, not no teams like you said? and do you think 2 teams is to many or not enough? Given that you want less players in sap you presumably want less teams from Sydney.

So what sap program do you coach in and why are you at the national titles in Coffs.

 

There's not enough from Sydney. (I have edited my original post per your correction.) 

Unlike your KNVB mate I will not go around big noting myself and name drop left right and centre.  I have avoided commenting on who I coach and at what level for years on this forum.  Peanut himself knows I was inculcated in the NC years before himself.

There is absolutely no chance of me disclosing to you what teams or what involvement I have in SAP or in fact any other level of football.

wow i just switched on 5-0 is that right??

yep sure is.

ufuk literally just rocks up and bags us a nice shiny youth trophy 

They have better structure on both sides of the ball unlike Tony Vidmar's joeys side

They certainly played better as the competition went on, as a new coach you have to applaud him for that.
Not making an excuse for Vidmar, but most of the U19's have minutes in the HAL, so they have been tested at a higher level and maybe even coached in training in their day to day football. Maybe a lack of high competitive games are lacking and the results don't matter haters have a point in a way.
But Vidmar's side didn't seem to improve as the competition went on, you could see the boys could play though, it was just disappointing.