For god sake jonsnow stop talking common sense someone might be reading this 

yep scraping the whole institution after a bad tournament is "common sense"  

If anything the quality 17,18,19 age group flies in the face of your argument 

I really think the AIS has served its purpose up to now , the game has moved on , A league academies are now the norm , players are getting caught up between " should I go to my local A league club or should I go to AIS and be in the national team "
Is that a fair and reasonable situation ?
I am not basing my opinion on one bad comp , in fact if you go back on my posts you will find that I was one who backed the players even though they did have bad results in India , I was also delighted with the results of the 19s in Veitnam , even though most of the so call experts on here bagged then after the Thailand game .
Change wil happen in national youth football , which way it goes ? Who knows but rest assured we do have a lot of very good boys coming through .

If he's better than them, he should be.

Although it's probably wiser to leave him in the UK because it serves both him and Australian football better for him to be pressing on with his club side.

I'm not sure who those experts were?

I've muted/blocked a couple of  obnoxious individuals on here, so I can't see all the comments. I saw few plausible critiques of the under 19s though, other than a few knee jerk reactions to one bad result.

The final in patircular was a pretty good performance by the Australian under 19s.

Having read in a previous informative post or two that players need to be at the AIS/COE in order to gain national team selection, seems bizarre.

This scenario even occurred with Aurelio's squad with the under 23s. There were players like Brandon O'Neill playing regular game time at SFC who wasn't selected for the first game. Others were selected, who weren't playing regular football, because  Aurelio said they had been part of the system for a long time. They had also been overtaken by other players outside  national team scenarios for a few years.

Will Arzani, Derrick and Armenakas be eligible to compete in the next cycle of U20 WC? So not the one for which this tournament is the qualification process, but the following one.

Welcome to the forum.

Imo, there's a difference between outfield footballers and goalkeepers. The relatively great shelf-life of goalkeepers means that they can afford to stay longer. Also, the skills demanded of a goalkeeper are very different. It seems, to me, to be more plausible that a goalkeeper could turn out to be world-class from developing in the A-League or just about any league. It seems almost implausible that this would happen for outfield positions. And no surprise Australia has tended to be strong in producing goalkeepers. Mat(t)y is a curious case though because he's so far from the typical Australian goalkeeper, instead his footskills are the key to his game.

Anyway, for outfield footballers, I suspect it's incredibly unlikely they'd be able to do as Mat(t) has done. Not impossible. Some footballers are world class in any league or despite any background. But highly, highly unlikely in the context of an already unlikely scenario (it being highly unlikely anybody will become a world-class footballer).

The way things are now, if outfield footballers stay in the A-League until they're 21 or so and then go to the Holy Trinity, the Championship or the SPL, they're at such a massive disadvantage. It means they start from scratch there. And then they might be a chance at moving into one of the Big 4 leagues, as Mat(t)y has done. But even then, the football clubs will be a bit sceptical about footballers who have been around for so long and haven't done anything yet in a Big 4 league. That means Champions League clubs (or good UCL sides) will be even more sceptical.

I also think we need to be careful when describing European clubs in general terms. Some are shocking for development, some are great.

The lads need to think as individuals. It might be regarded as riskier to go abroad young, but it's basically the only chance of getting to the top, top level. Never mind what's good for Australian football. That's the scenario for them.

Of course, this debate will change a lot if the A-League improves massively in quality, it offers more pathways and it becomes more feasible to go directly from the A-League to a top European football club.

Good to see the interaction between Gombau and Mells today, Mells solid 45minutes against SFC. Very mature performance, Blackwood spent time with Mells also he will be hoping that some of the passing Mells did today find his feet also in the qualifying stages.
Deng good at back but one more solid performer would have been an asset

Its a great idea but the FFA won't listen of course lol
The worst part was we finished 16th out of all teams, other words finishing dead last a country like australia in how we are in asia especially at senior level surely no doubt huge changes will be made once they do their national team review.
Its not good enough, i have a good feeling the AIS/FFA COE will be eventually scrapped, too much political interference in terms of player selection and coaches its better off the money is used for other purposes with regards to our national youth teams.
We all know the FFA COE squad which has 23 players isnt the best 23 around across the country, its an outdated program which is virtually outdated.

They probably can if they still 17 next year although if they 18 now its their only cycle they can compete in.

So what your tell me is that 23 players in one quality environment is better than 23 x 10 quality environments? What your also tell me that a 15/16 year old training with other 15/16 year olds is better then 15/16 year olds training with 18/19/20 year olds and the chance to train with HAL squad is better? 

This is true and unfortunate. I know a boy that was at Sutherland and was asked to sign for Sydney FC or go to the AIS. He told me he was going to pick the AIS to improve his chances of getting into the U16's squad. He didn't end up making the squad anyways. 

However, the FFA and AIS shouldn't be influencing the selection of players that way. It would be the best 23 players for that age, whoever they play for. 

One thing that I think has been overlooked in this aus 20s squad is that Talay seems to be very much his own man and won't be swayed on so called reputations or outside influences , it showed in the semi final and final that he was prepared to play players out of their comfort zone , which is a positive move.

Well said.

Good point about  keepers, QF.

Couldn't agree more

How many HAL clubs don't have academies now? Surely they all do? 
The COE had it's place but it doesn't in the future. As Graham Arnold said last week, when he first started and copped an injury to Smeltz just before the season started he had to start Blackwood and had never even seen him play or train beforehand. There were no age group sides other than NYL and there was no coordination amongst them. It made sense for the country's best young players to be in the same spot at the COE.

Now members of the u18, u20s and NPL first grade sides all train with the HAL squad regularly throughout the year. This gives them a glimpse of the standards and skillsets of the nation's professional players and the opportunity to test themselves at a higher level. If a kid were to standout in training against players from a higher level they can be promoted up a grade or two. Potentially a 16/17 year old who's an absolute gem could start getting senior game time straight away. And even if not they'd be playing in the NSW NPL and training with senior players and possibly former/current internationals.

At the COE they train and play with the same bunch of kids, of the same age, over and over again. They then play in the weaker ACT NPL, and then the NYL. They are not getting experience against higher quality players and considering these are supposed to be the best juniors in the country their development can only lag in comparison to players at HAL clubs IMO.

I did think about the goalkeepers vs outfield players comparison when I was using the Maty Ryan example, so I understand what you're saying. I think keepers can improve more quickly in the a-league than outfield players, but at the same time, I don't think it's a vast difference. 

The part I bolded above is also a good point, and highlights why improving the quality of our league is paramount if we want to produce players who reach the top, top level. There just isn't enough quality european academies for us to rely on overseas clubs to nurture our talent. Those academies are signing the most talented kids from all over the world and the success rate for our guys to get through to the first team is unacceptably low. Obviously players need to take a look at each individual option for their own situation. They may be recruited by a great academy that happens to have a lack of talent in their position, in which case it might be a better option for them to go. They also need to take into account their ability to adapt to a new country, culture, language, etc.

The quality of the A-league has the potential to grow very quickly in the next 5 years, dependent on the next 2 tv deals.

Some clubs can barely manage their senior team let alone a youth academy with all the right coaches etc. that's' why we should probably have both 

As long as when they are picked, they are picked on merit. The U16 Asian Championship was an absolute disaster.

Well, over half the league has full academies, both Syd and Mel clubs. The Mariners have one too, and if they can surely every other club can figure it out too. Jets have had the emerging Jets for a while now. Hopefully, the new owner will see this as an area worthy of investment as i believe it's been struggling for funds since Tinkler left.
Adelaide, Brisbane and Perth have an entire city+state to represent and ultimately provide the opportunities to progress from youth to HAL football. They all have NPL sides as far as I know, not sure to what age groups the extend down to though. 
The platform is there, and whether it's from the owner's pockets, state federations, sponsors, combos of the above, all clubs need to have youth sides going down to at least u18s, if not u13s, within the next year or two. And eventually the SAP too. 
Attracting and developing local juniors is one of the best investments most clubs can make, in terms of new first players, future transfer fees, building a community around the club and in general as a marketing tool. 

Yeah spot on. The FFA really need to improve the quality of the A-League for all this to be feasible. We need a second division (not with P/R immediately, but such that it can move that way when it's ready), A-League academies from U9s upwards and for A-League clubs to be rewarded for playing youth.

They should probably also look at areas of the NC and the SAP programme which aren't up to scratch.

The reality is that most young Aussies will stay in Australia. And that development can be uneven. Some footballers who might turn out to be top class might not show signs of it at the age when they'd otherwise be encouraged to get themselves to Europe. So we need the infrastructure in place in Australia.

Until then, for the individual footballers, they need to ask themselves the question as to how far they want to go in football. If they want to go right to the top, then their best bet is to go to the correct European football club as young as possible. I don't think Harry Kewell would have been quite as good if he'd stayed in Australia until he was 21. Same with Tim Cahill. Or, looking at other sports, Ben Simmons wouldn't have been first draft pick in the NBA if he hadn't spent so much time in the States already (he'd probably make the NBA, but not quite the same way).

Does Melbourne Victory have an u10s program ? they dont even have their own facilities.. (im aware that theyre planning for an accademy) 

I agree slightly that the NTC program is coming to the end of it's time in it's current format although I don't think we have fully transitioned yet. The NTC program was set up because there was a significant gap in the training received by kids in the 15-17 age group, the whole goal was to maintain an elite system for the best players. With academies and the A league teams in the NPL this has improved but I don't think we will be fully transitioned until we have a much stronger NPL or second tier. 

When it does change it will be interesting to see what it morphs into. I've mentioned this before but I think our model draws a lot of inspiration operationally from the French Academy model that includes Clairefontaine, but their programs are focused in the 13-15 age group rather than 15-17, and there is less centralisation than the Australian program. Each academy functions for their respective state alone. I think this centralisation is one of the major issues with underage football in Australia these days, everything is so focused around the CoE that if you're not in the system you have less chance of being seen and/or progressing.

It might have worked in the past but I think there is too much talent coming through these days for just 1 program, and having development pathways connected to underage teams isn't the most effective model. If you look at the u16/17 teams for countries like france, netherlands, spain etc these players are already in the academies of the professional clubs, and the development pathways are separate from representative duties.

Overall I'd like to eventually see the NTC's dropped down to a lower age group. I don't see any problem in maintaining the system, having multiple pathways at younger age groups increases the amount of players coming through. I think separating the rep teams from the development systems will lead to much better results though in the long term. 

I'm pretty sure we don't. 

Top post. Maybe they need to be implementing it younger. There have been aspects about it which are great (in terms of the output in the football they play). The U16s last year (?) had us doing cartwheels. I've rarely witnessed such nice football from any Australian side.

I just think it has been inconsistent in its results and there has been a lack of work on improvisation. A lack of 1 vs 1 skill (worse than in the past). Which means that when things don't work out, they can't think (or act) outside the box. The NC needs to encourage creativity, not stifle it.

But it's all a process of adaptation and synthesis. Constantly working on it. So they'll implement things younger. They'll add more emphasis on this and that.

Learn from success and failure.

Implementing something what they do in france with clairefontaine would be fantastic but i'm not sure it would be a popular choice for parents making a choice for their kid to leave their hometown and move to a different city in a centralised program.
It must be nationwide to have programs like this around australia not just in one location i.e canberra, quite expensive from what i'm told but maybe one day if its viable.

I recently read FFA's whole of football plan its glossy document and in player development they did mention they want to have schools to work together with the clubs and the NTC programs become training programs working with the clubs so the players get more training and game development, so maybe we are moving down this track anyway. 
I guess watch this space...

None of it works , all this overseas bs , we try to turn aus kids into French one year the following year we go Dutch , maybe the year after the Belgiums are the flavor of the month .
The Jap the Koreans don't forget the Germans and now by all accounts the Yanks have got a beast of a player in the Bundaslige
Chasing stars the experts that post missives that say the same thing since 2005 , know it all in theory but when it comes to practice ...........0