As a freemason, I regularly deal with aspects of the bible and deeply religious people. I question everything. Religion serves a purpose but when people put religion above all else they can miss the point of life entirely.

What I openly discuss with people is that religion deserves no respect. Religion is inert and open to abuse. Religion has been used as a tool of suffering for thousands of years. I respect the person if they deserve it. Religious beliefs mean nothing. They do not make the person.

I had a very religious graduate at work who always came up with bullshit about using his Christian beliefs to make people better. As if without these beliefs, they were lost/lesser people. I resent this moral high ground. This isn't about intelligence at all. I know some bloody wise religious people. However, there are aspects of all religious texts which have dated (I brought up Noah's flood before) which are inappropriate for children. No great flood happened and it did not happen how the bible said it did. How can you explain to a child that some parts of the bible are metaphorical and some aren't? It's insane.

That's very interesting. as a Freemason then, you must believe in God. That is a requirement is it not? I think you even took an oath to that effect. 

Either way, it's really none of my business. You are a free man (free will) and you have the right to be a freemason, or as religious or atheistic as you like. Just do not presume to believe that you are somehow more intelligent or of a higher moral plane to others. I know some Evangelical religions really do ram things down people's throat but that isn't all christian religions. To find out you have to seek (the light and knowledge) for yourself, no one is going to pull you by the hand or hold it. 

All religions are open to abuse just like our government is open to even worse abuse. There are some bad people that will use it to gain advantage over some people, or to profit in material ways, or to hurt people and there are some fundamentally religious people that have even killed. But they are not religious, just evil people that will use a religion as a position of power or position of trust just like we have evil people that infiltrate our Governments, Schools, and other organisations. 

As to your mate telling you that you will be better somehow just from converting to a religion, well that isn't the case at all. it's not something you can force on people and its also wrong. Being open and respectful and tolerant makes you a better person and your journey in life is a matter for yourself and you won't be judged for it either. Not even by God, because if you study the words regardless of whether you believe or not, that isn't what it's all about and some-people (MAN) have made it into or turned it into something which is even contradictory for his own gain usually as well. That is the infallibility of Man himself/herself. Everyone is fallible including the most religious. 

However, I do encourage you to visit a few sites around the world. I really do. What sites is up to you. And whether you do change, is again, up to you. But you will experience things and you will be richer for it, even if it sows some seeds of intrigue and makes you to ask questions of yourself. 

"Philosophy begins where religion ends, just as chemistry begins where alchemy ends, and astronomy begins where astrology ends.” - Christopher Hitchens.

"A higher power". I do not call my higher power God and it is not a being which human characteristics. I sound like a salesman here but that's the beauty of freemasonry, everyone calls God by a different name yet we never argue about it. 

I don't believe in more intelligent (for the second time). I've tried more than once in this thread to point out the fallacy of suggesting safe schools is indoctrinating kids whilst religion is not. It's hypocrisy. My examples were not intended to belittle but rather to illustrate a point that its confusing to differentiate between factual and metaphorical. 

I visited the Vatican a few years ago. The amount of luxury on display whilst so many people suffered during it's construction turned me of Christendom forever. That, and believing that a God takes a personal interest in my life as well as 6 billion others is something i cannot grasp. 

The vatican owns the biggest gay bath house in europe.

Even more shocking, Ivan Cardinal Dias lives in a swank 12-room apartment one floor above Europa Multiclub, and mere yards from the phallic shrubbery at the entrance of the gay Xanadu, La Repubblica reported.......Dias is known for reviling homosexuality, calling it “unnatural” and arguing that gays can be “cured.”

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/vatican-owns-building-gay-bathhouse-article-1.1285660

Religious schools are great.

#nohopeforhumanity :laugh:

I think the topic has gone way off topic ... and most of this conversation should be in the Australian Politic thread.

By the way Snopes investigation point to the dinosaur test as being true (apparently it is based on a DVD that the children watched and then were tested on that ... which gives a pretty scary picture of how schools can indoctrinate children - in any matter of subject).

yes but you have sworn that you believe in a higher power. It doesn't matter what you call it. You can call it Thor or a fairy God, but in effect you believe in a God. 

No one is arguing about God. few people actually know or understand that the Jewish Faith, Islam, and Christians actually believe in the same entity. 

The Bible is actually a holy book for them too. 

Well, with safe Schools, it may be a fallacy for you and I won't be able to convince you otherwise, but it is an affront and an offence to me having the state interfere with the moral upbringing of my children on subjects I do not agree with or condone in any way shape or form. I even believe it is damaging and unhealthy. 

So we have a significant divide here which is impossible to bridge. it will be impossible to bridge because parents that have my thinking will not subject their kids to this form of "education" which we believe is indoctrination. We don't even believe children should be exposed to these concepts at their age. 

This is another fallacy and just an example of more ignorance.

For instance, there are Christian religions which actually believe in Evolution. they do not believe the earth is 7000 years old.

What you are saying only applies to some fundamentalist new age religions like Evangelists and what you would find in Southern USA for instance (being careful not to bag a group of people) and things like Scientology.

There are some really bad religions out there, and people need to be very wary of them, and they do prey on the weak and vulnerable.

the more older and respected faiths, like the Coptic, Eastern Church which date back to 2000 years ago will NEVER knock on your door, ram it down your throat, fiddle with kids (our priests are married with kids), take advantage of your finances or anything else that doesn't ring true with being decent. if you want to find out, you need to seek it for yourself. If you don't, then fine. 

That is the clincher for any religion. Anyone who tries hard to sell something to you, run away from at speed. 

And yes, we believe in evolution. We also teach it in our private schools. We also teach Philosophy and we still even practice pagan rituals. 

We also support contraception. in fact a priest is more likely to give you a condom than risk you getting some disease. pill is also ok, and we were the first to actually endorse abortions. 

I do not believe that God is an accurate way to describe my beliefs. I believe in some form of propulsion to start the big bang but I do not believe that there is a presence other than energy which governs the universe. Big difference.

Do you not accept that it could also be offensive for other parents for religion to be taught in schools? I would refuse to send my kids to a school that taught religion unless it was a range of religions. I will never send my kids to a faith based school, it's abuse of their right to make their own decisions in respect to faith.

I find it hard to discuss these things with people who think something like state schools is indoctrination but somehow believe religion is not.

Easy.
It's all metaphor and allegory. Which bits are you even assuming ARE literal?

It's all wonderful story telling and an insight into how various people in ancient civilisations saw the world around them.
Nothing more, nothing less and I do not see this fact diminishing the writings or their power/intent in any way.

In fact it makes them more interesting to be honest. I often wonder if the people who first wrote down these oral tradition stories would laugh at people 2,000 years later trying to pick apart certain pieces and saying "see, no way THAT could happen". I wonder if their response would be "no shit but look at what we are trying to show/teach you instead".

Food for thought if nothing else.

But you teach a global flood during the time of humanity which is factually inaccurate.

Some of the Christians I know would be offended by me suggesting that it's all a metaphor. Some sects take a more literal interpretation than others.

My next point would be that there are numerous metaphorical interpretations of these stories. How can you say which one is right? This is further complicated when you think about the Council of Nicaea which formed somewhat of a 'universal Christian Doctrine' i.e. picking and choosing what elements of the bible they wanted to follow. I struggle to reconcile the fact that the bible has been altered so many times throughout history with claims that it is the word of God.

2000 years ago they probably didn't think we'd still be following a book. Comparatively, it would be like the Romans worshipping Achilles and the Iliad. Hilarious when you think about it.

Again, why do people who do not believe the bible stories to be real try to aspire even more literal interpretations? Is it because it is easier to discredit everything else then? I am so far from being religious but i will never understand why so many people have to take the black and white positions.

Wording such as "the whole world" at a time when people lived in smaller "cities" along a delta could very easily have meant THEIR world. Imagine the rivers flooding and wiping out all the crops and flooding all the houses. It would seem like THEIR world was crumbling down around them.The word world still remains subjective to whatever boundaries you choose to confine yourself within. People still say my family is my world and other such phrases.

Some of the wording in genesis indicates that it was a pretty f*cking huge flood :laugh:

I've seen it related to the flood believed to wipe out the Sumerians. Plausible. It amuses me that people spend thousands trying to find a giant wooden boat on Mt Ararat :laugh:  

Aha yeah but again, when people are telling stories, especially to teach children a moral a lesson they will exaggerate. A painful burnt finger becomes "and it was like my whole hand was on fire".

I don't claim to know or remember the wording of the flood story as such but if you are sitting around fire for hundreds of years telling these stories they are going to get wilder and bigger every generation.

It's like Herodotus' stories too when we  see him as the first historian. His stories pre-Greece are no less fantastical. Admits freely large parts are based on what he has heard as opposed to documents. Perhaps it is only the intent behind his writings that is different.

No i do not accept that this is an offence. firstly, religion was stopped in public schools a very long time ago.

The big issue is Christmas and Easter which shouldn't have been stopped.

If you go to other countries, it is an offence to not appreciate your newly adopted home's cultural observances and beliefs. When you're in Rome, than act like a Roman. 

If it is an offence, then these people should've thought about that before coming to Australia. 

I didn't say State Schools are indoctrination. I said Safe Schools is indoctrination. I don't want my kids anywhere near it. 

First of all, the Bible wasn't meant to be taken literally and it was a document written some 2000 years ago when people actually believed the earth was flat. 

2000 years ago, that was the consensus.

The same with the claim that the earth is 7000 years old. Only idiotic religions still hold on to these things from 2000 years ago and refuse to reform as we develop and our science develops to include things like evolution among many other things like contraception. 

but just because the bible say's the earth is flat, 2000 years ago, doesn't actually make the earth flat and it doesn't diminish the Bible as the greatest masterpiece in literature, or its message or its moral, ethical and philosophical codes. The Bible was NEVER written by God or Jesus. it was written by man, and henceforth corrupted by Man too. 

For people to really make up their minds, they need to educate themselves about the subject and go and visit the actual places where it all happened, and where 3 religions meet at the crossroads over the most disputed piece of land in human history. 

You will even see fire come from the rock. Like magic. 

A long time ago? We had priests and nuns in my public school in like 2002. Not that long ago.

Secondly, how can you not perceive it as potentially offensive? Do you find the treatment of women in Islam offensive? We are not a Christian country we are secular.

I cannot continue a discussion with you if you cannot appreciate that people can and do find the interference of religion to be offensive.

Not disagreeing with you there.

If the bible is the inspired word of God, wouldn't it have been written in a way that it couldn't be interpreted literally no matter how silly people are?

Catholic Education FTW :laugh: (I don't remember it either, in fact I was saying the other day I don't remember if we ever even opened a bible in high school RE classes)

no it's not inspired by God.

That is MAN telling you it's inspired by God.

There was a man called Jesus (Son of God), who never said anything about the earth being flat or that it was only 7000 years old, or that people should throw stones at Prostitutes and Thieves and which gave people another way and another philosophy to abide by.

You are not suppose to throw stones, or judge. 

All the rest are things added on by Man. 

I have priests at my kids private school today.

And  my kids love their priest a lot. Pretty much family. 

he is also a very pleasant, sophisticated and beautiful man. And I can only be pleased that he is involved in my children's upbringing. 

The money I spend is considered an investment in my kids growth. 

Ha ha my main memories are of illustrated childrens versions aha I can even picture the big wave and giraffes.

But yeah same as my high school, while we did RE all the way to year 12 (or bludge/study time as it was mainly known) I can't remember whether we actually did study bible verse at any point. 

They probably tried to make it modern and made it even less interesting aha

So stand on street corners cupping your balls and yelling out at passing women aha

Yeah pretty much, I remember very little of it there was definitely more of an ethics feel to the classes than direct religious teaching.

Did you have any actual Christian Brothers still teaching there? We did but I'm pretty sure they're all gone now.

Interesting!

never thought of it this way before about the flood. but you are correct...people back then living on the Jordan which broke its banks probably did refer to the flood as "The Great Flood" which flooded the "Whole World"

The same people who wrote The Old Testament. 

:laugh:

lol