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TheSelectFew
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Posts: 30K,
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+x+x+x+x+x@ pippinu MLS is probably the closest model to Australia, no relegation down and a disenfranchised second tier (and a second tier often at war with itself as well - sound familiar lol) The problem we have with this is that FIFA will not act against the US much to the annoyance of American football fans, many who want pro/rel. I would agree there, but the question which immediately arises is why are so many confident that they will definitely act against Australia? (perhaps many don't realise what a disaster it would be if FIFA were to truly act?) It wouldn't be a disaster here or in the US. In fact pro/rel in the US would just drive the sport forward, only at a more accelerated pace. Australia is just a small player in the great scheme of things in football, in business, trade, finance. The US on the other hand is the last real Bastian for football to conquer. Of course FIFA don't want to rock the boat, but even the US at some point will have to come around, it just won't be now. The disaster is FIFA taking action - when they do, they don't do things by halves. They FFA had a chance to avoid this. They had years. They haven't. Its now incompetent v corrupt.
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RBBAnonymous
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x@ pippinu MLS is probably the closest model to Australia, no relegation down and a disenfranchised second tier (and a second tier often at war with itself as well - sound familiar lol) The problem we have with this is that FIFA will not act against the US much to the annoyance of American football fans, many who want pro/rel. I would agree there, but the question which immediately arises is why are so many confident that they will definitely act against Australia? (perhaps many don't realise what a disaster it would be if FIFA were to truly act?) It wouldn't be a disaster here or in the US. In fact pro/rel in the US would just drive the sport forward, only at a more accelerated pace. Australia is just a small player in the great scheme of things in football, in business, trade, finance. The US on the other hand is the last real Bastian for football to conquer. Of course FIFA don't want to rock the boat, but even the US at some point will have to come around, it just won't be now. The disaster is FIFA taking action - when they do, they don't do things by halves. Sorry you are mistaken. The disaster here is the FFA not taking action. They have had every opportunity to do so. They know the consequences.
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pippinu
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Group: Banned Members
Posts: 5.7K,
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+x+x+x+x@ pippinu MLS is probably the closest model to Australia, no relegation down and a disenfranchised second tier (and a second tier often at war with itself as well - sound familiar lol) The problem we have with this is that FIFA will not act against the US much to the annoyance of American football fans, many who want pro/rel. I would agree there, but the question which immediately arises is why are so many confident that they will definitely act against Australia? (perhaps many don't realise what a disaster it would be if FIFA were to truly act?) It wouldn't be a disaster here or in the US. In fact pro/rel in the US would just drive the sport forward, only at a more accelerated pace. Australia is just a small player in the great scheme of things in football, in business, trade, finance. The US on the other hand is the last real Bastian for football to conquer. Of course FIFA don't want to rock the boat, but even the US at some point will have to come around, it just won't be now. The disaster is FIFA taking action - when they do, they don't do things by halves.
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RBBAnonymous
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 3.8K,
Visits: 0
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+x+x+x@ pippinu MLS is probably the closest model to Australia, no relegation down and a disenfranchised second tier (and a second tier often at war with itself as well - sound familiar lol) The problem we have with this is that FIFA will not act against the US much to the annoyance of American football fans, many who want pro/rel. I would agree there, but the question which immediately arises is why are so many confident that they will definitely act against Australia? (perhaps many don't realise what a disaster it would be if FIFA were to truly act?) It wouldn't be a disaster here or in the US. In fact pro/rel in the US would just drive the sport forward, only at a more accelerated pace. Australia is just a small player in the great scheme of things in football, in business, trade, finance. The US on the other hand is the last real Bastian for football to conquer. Of course FIFA don't want to rock the boat, but even the US at some point will have to come around, it just won't be now.
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Waz
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@ RBB
correct, there's a few subtleties in the US though - the first was the progress the game was making with expansion and things like stadiums. Easier to argue we're unique when you're actually doing something lol.
Second was there wasn't a single League below the MLS there were two both competing with each other and both claiming to be a competitor to MLS. I think that's been fixed but lessons there for the NPL clubs.
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pippinu
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Group: Banned Members
Posts: 5.7K,
Visits: 0
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+x+x@ pippinu MLS is probably the closest model to Australia, no relegation down and a disenfranchised second tier (and a second tier often at war with itself as well - sound familiar lol) The problem we have with this is that FIFA will not act against the US much to the annoyance of American football fans, many who want pro/rel. I would agree there, but the question which immediately arises is why are so many confident that they will definitely act against Australia? (perhaps many don't realise what a disaster it would be if FIFA were to truly act?)
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Rimbaud
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Group: Forum Members
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Yep and every other country in the world has pro/rel. Including Korea, who have direct promotion for top div2 team and then promotion play offs between teams 2nd-4th on div2 table. Which incidentally goes above and beyond giving opportunities to more clubs, really.
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RBBAnonymous
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 3.8K,
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+x@ pippinu MLS is probably the closest model to Australia, no relegation down and a disenfranchised second tier (and a second tier often at war with itself as well - sound familiar lol) The problem we have with this is that FIFA will not act against the US much to the annoyance of American football fans, many who want pro/rel.
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pippinu
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Group: Banned Members
Posts: 5.7K,
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+x@ pippinu MLS is probably the closest model to Australia, no relegation down and a disenfranchised second tier (and a second tier often at war with itself as well - sound familiar lol) I would not deny that that is the case, I'm merely pointing out to our good friend that things are not uniform across the football world - you get variations of some core principles. More knowledgeable people than I will be able to point to the various Apertura/Clausura systems operating in at least one South American country, to play-off systems such as that, for example, in the Eredivisie, etc, etc.
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Waz
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Group: Forum Members
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@ pippinu
MLS is probably the closest model to Australia, no relegation down and a disenfranchised second tier (and a second tier often at war with itself as well - sound familiar lol)
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pippinu
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Group: Banned Members
Posts: 5.7K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xRimbaudWelcome the discussion .... Sometimes to get something to work everyone needs to agree to a starting point. If the starting point can be agreed then what follows hopefully becomes discussion.... When you look at key decisions my personal experience is to attempt to remove personal bias, personal wants and be as dispassionate in looking at the facts before you. So my starting point is everyone agrees we need to go to P & R with a number of divisions. The argument becomes then IMO two fold, how long will it take, and what rules to get in. My other hope ... is hhhmmmm rrrrr how to explain .... I think this started about 30 years ago by the left when to win a debate you tried to destroy the credibility of who you where talking to... since then the right have taken this approach to a new level... talk back radio loves it... my hope is it can be discussed where people with similar ideas and outcomes can look and think about what others are saying as no one has all the smarts... Unfortunately you have been one of the worst offenders over the years, any decision that differed from the FFA's stated policy was challenged with something like "so you think you know better than the FFA?" which is hardly conducive to a good debate. It is abundantly clear that the FFA have lost touch with many in the football community, HAL, NPL, fans, grassroots football, and that they dont have all the answers. The challenge is will they listen now or will they carry on regardless? On the three most important issues of the day to the football community - Expansion, a second division, and promotion & relegation, can you honestly say what the FFA's position on any of them is? I can't, which means teh debate is taking place without the FFA's participation which only further isolates them from the football community My reasoning and logic is for growth you need a certain size market... IMO until we can crack the issue of player / watcher issue and I would also add and the massive influence other codes especially AFL have we risk a lot and if we go a little slower and build the market it is a safer option that takes longer .. By slower you mean in 12 years we are at a size where we need an $80m TV deal to sustain 10 teams from a central pool of funds? Thats not what I said, and putting figures on it at this point in time does not help.
What I said was we all want P & R supported by a number of divisions.
My logic and experience says we have a lot of work to do to get to this position.
Others want change yesterday.
In some ways as a community we have become the moaning capital of the world … the expectations of what FFA can achieve in the short term, the quality of the league, the refs ... Have we lost perspective of where we are on the evolutionary journey … seems to me many what the end of the journey next week rather than work on it.. this was never going to be easy
There is no doubt we need some new leadership and many current issues FFA have on their plate are their own making...
Right now they have FIFA requirements centring around governance, expansion, P & R.
The errors of judgement are easy to find and easier to be critical of ...
However that does not mean that ideas and options put by others do not need analysis carried out on what people say... nor that they are right.... nor that others are right... Fozzie and Les Murray are currently be criticised by many on their Southern Bid by many ... so the answer is not as easy as many seem to think
I fully agree with RBB that the lower division need to be funded ... I am also of the opinion that the State Associations should run the lower divisions to get them off the ground.
My issue that no one has to date convinced me they have the solution to is the creation of a far bigger market for Football and to convert the player numbers. ... Johnny Warren on a gala day at Newcastle in 1965 said look at all the these players we will soon be number one.
Creating that market size and funding to the lower divisions has been the problem for well over 50 years... create a plan that CAN solve this and I am won... but I am yet to see anything that comes close under close analysis...
There is already a plan/model in place. It's from FIFA, but I keep forgetting, we are unique. Although Pro/rel is found all around the world. Mostly, but with a lot of different models. For example, there are many instances where consistent P&R rules apply between a first and second division, but there is no automatic P&R below that, or they might apply between the top 3 tiers, but don't apply between the 3rd and 4th tier, or stop applying at the professional level, etc, etc. Also, I'm aware that the MLS as an Eastern and Western conference, but I'm not sure there is any automatic P&R between this top tier and the tier below. I'm not sure if the K-League has your typical P&R either.
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Rimbaud
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 618,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+xRimbaudWelcome the discussion .... Sometimes to get something to work everyone needs to agree to a starting point. If the starting point can be agreed then what follows hopefully becomes discussion.... When you look at key decisions my personal experience is to attempt to remove personal bias, personal wants and be as dispassionate in looking at the facts before you. So my starting point is everyone agrees we need to go to P & R with a number of divisions. The argument becomes then IMO two fold, how long will it take, and what rules to get in. My other hope ... is hhhmmmm rrrrr how to explain .... I think this started about 30 years ago by the left when to win a debate you tried to destroy the credibility of who you where talking to... since then the right have taken this approach to a new level... talk back radio loves it... my hope is it can be discussed where people with similar ideas and outcomes can look and think about what others are saying as no one has all the smarts... Unfortunately you have been one of the worst offenders over the years, any decision that differed from the FFA's stated policy was challenged with something like "so you think you know better than the FFA?" which is hardly conducive to a good debate. It is abundantly clear that the FFA have lost touch with many in the football community, HAL, NPL, fans, grassroots football, and that they dont have all the answers. The challenge is will they listen now or will they carry on regardless? On the three most important issues of the day to the football community - Expansion, a second division, and promotion & relegation, can you honestly say what the FFA's position on any of them is? I can't, which means teh debate is taking place without the FFA's participation which only further isolates them from the football community My reasoning and logic is for growth you need a certain size market... IMO until we can crack the issue of player / watcher issue and I would also add and the massive influence other codes especially AFL have we risk a lot and if we go a little slower and build the market it is a safer option that takes longer .. By slower you mean in 12 years we are at a size where we need an $80m TV deal to sustain 10 teams from a central pool of funds? Thats not what I said, and putting figures on it at this point in time does not help.
What I said was we all want P & R supported by a number of divisions.
My logic and experience says we have a lot of work to do to get to this position.
Others want change yesterday.
In some ways as a community we have become the moaning capital of the world … the expectations of what FFA can achieve in the short term, the quality of the league, the refs ... Have we lost perspective of where we are on the evolutionary journey … seems to me many what the end of the journey next week rather than work on it.. this was never going to be easy
There is no doubt we need some new leadership and many current issues FFA have on their plate are their own making...
Right now they have FIFA requirements centring around governance, expansion, P & R.
The errors of judgement are easy to find and easier to be critical of ...
However that does not mean that ideas and options put by others do not need analysis carried out on what people say... nor that they are right.... nor that others are right... Fozzie and Les Murray are currently be criticised by many on their Southern Bid by many ... so the answer is not as easy as many seem to think
I fully agree with RBB that the lower division need to be funded ... I am also of the opinion that the State Associations should run the lower divisions to get them off the ground.
My issue that no one has to date convinced me they have the solution to is the creation of a far bigger market for Football and to convert the player numbers. ... Johnny Warren on a gala day at Newcastle in 1965 said look at all the these players we will soon be number one.
Creating that market size and funding to the lower divisions has been the problem for well over 50 years... create a plan that CAN solve this and I am won... but I am yet to see anything that comes close under close analysis...
There is already a plan/model in place. It's from FIFA, but I keep forgetting, we are unique. Although Pro/rel is found all around the world.
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pippinu
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Group: Banned Members
Posts: 5.7K,
Visits: 0
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+x+x+x+x+x+xRimbaudWelcome the discussion .... Sometimes to get something to work everyone needs to agree to a starting point. If the starting point can be agreed then what follows hopefully becomes discussion.... When you look at key decisions my personal experience is to attempt to remove personal bias, personal wants and be as dispassionate in looking at the facts before you. So my starting point is everyone agrees we need to go to P & R with a number of divisions. The argument becomes then IMO two fold, how long will it take, and what rules to get in. My other hope ... is hhhmmmm rrrrr how to explain .... I think this started about 30 years ago by the left when to win a debate you tried to destroy the credibility of who you where talking to... since then the right have taken this approach to a new level... talk back radio loves it... my hope is it can be discussed where people with similar ideas and outcomes can look and think about what others are saying as no one has all the smarts... Unfortunately you have been one of the worst offenders over the years, any decision that differed from the FFA's stated policy was challenged with something like "so you think you know better than the FFA?" which is hardly conducive to a good debate. It is abundantly clear that the FFA have lost touch with many in the football community, HAL, NPL, fans, grassroots football, and that they dont have all the answers. The challenge is will they listen now or will they carry on regardless? On the three most important issues of the day to the football community - Expansion, a second division, and promotion & relegation, can you honestly say what the FFA's position on any of them is? I can't, which means teh debate is taking place without the FFA's participation which only further isolates them from the football community My reasoning and logic is for growth you need a certain size market... IMO until we can crack the issue of player / watcher issue and I would also add and the massive influence other codes especially AFL have we risk a lot and if we go a little slower and build the market it is a safer option that takes longer .. By slower you mean in 12 years we are at a size where we need an $80m TV deal to sustain 10 teams from a central pool of funds? Thats not what I said, and putting figures on it at this point in time does not help.
What I said was we all want P & R supported by a number of divisions.
My logic and experience says we have a lot of work to do to get to this position.
Others want change yesterday.
In some ways as a community we have become the moaning capital of the world … the expectations of what FFA can achieve in the short term, the quality of the league, the refs ... Have we lost perspective of where we are on the evolutionary journey … seems to me many what the end of the journey next week rather than work on it.. this was never going to be easy
There is no doubt we need some new leadership and many current issues FFA have on their plate are their own making...
Right now they have FIFA requirements centring around governance, expansion, P & R.
The errors of judgement are easy to find and easier to be critical of ...
However that does not mean that ideas and options put by others do not need analysis carried out on what people say... nor that they are right.... nor that others are right... Fozzie and Les Murray are currently be criticised by many on their Southern Bid by many ... so the answer is not as easy as many seem to think
I fully agree with RBB that the lower division need to be funded ... I am also of the opinion that the State Associations should run the lower divisions to get them off the ground.
My issue that no one has to date convinced me they have the solution to is the creation of a far bigger market for Football and to convert the player numbers. ... Johnny Warren on a gala day at Newcastle in 1965 said look at all the these players we will soon be number one.
Creating that market size and funding to the lower divisions has been the problem for well over 50 years... create a plan that CAN solve this and I am won... but I am yet to see anything that comes close under close analysis...
There is already a plan/model in place. It's from FIFA, but I keep forgetting, we are unique. Although many variations of these core principles are to be found right around the world.
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RBBAnonymous
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 3.8K,
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+x+x+x+x+xRimbaudWelcome the discussion .... Sometimes to get something to work everyone needs to agree to a starting point. If the starting point can be agreed then what follows hopefully becomes discussion.... When you look at key decisions my personal experience is to attempt to remove personal bias, personal wants and be as dispassionate in looking at the facts before you. So my starting point is everyone agrees we need to go to P & R with a number of divisions. The argument becomes then IMO two fold, how long will it take, and what rules to get in. My other hope ... is hhhmmmm rrrrr how to explain .... I think this started about 30 years ago by the left when to win a debate you tried to destroy the credibility of who you where talking to... since then the right have taken this approach to a new level... talk back radio loves it... my hope is it can be discussed where people with similar ideas and outcomes can look and think about what others are saying as no one has all the smarts... Unfortunately you have been one of the worst offenders over the years, any decision that differed from the FFA's stated policy was challenged with something like "so you think you know better than the FFA?" which is hardly conducive to a good debate. It is abundantly clear that the FFA have lost touch with many in the football community, HAL, NPL, fans, grassroots football, and that they dont have all the answers. The challenge is will they listen now or will they carry on regardless? On the three most important issues of the day to the football community - Expansion, a second division, and promotion & relegation, can you honestly say what the FFA's position on any of them is? I can't, which means teh debate is taking place without the FFA's participation which only further isolates them from the football community My reasoning and logic is for growth you need a certain size market... IMO until we can crack the issue of player / watcher issue and I would also add and the massive influence other codes especially AFL have we risk a lot and if we go a little slower and build the market it is a safer option that takes longer .. By slower you mean in 12 years we are at a size where we need an $80m TV deal to sustain 10 teams from a central pool of funds? Thats not what I said, and putting figures on it at this point in time does not help.
What I said was we all want P & R supported by a number of divisions.
My logic and experience says we have a lot of work to do to get to this position.
Others want change yesterday.
In some ways as a community we have become the moaning capital of the world … the expectations of what FFA can achieve in the short term, the quality of the league, the refs ... Have we lost perspective of where we are on the evolutionary journey … seems to me many what the end of the journey next week rather than work on it.. this was never going to be easy
There is no doubt we need some new leadership and many current issues FFA have on their plate are their own making...
Right now they have FIFA requirements centring around governance, expansion, P & R.
The errors of judgement are easy to find and easier to be critical of ...
However that does not mean that ideas and options put by others do not need analysis carried out on what people say... nor that they are right.... nor that others are right... Fozzie and Les Murray are currently be criticised by many on their Southern Bid by many ... so the answer is not as easy as many seem to think
I fully agree with RBB that the lower division need to be funded ... I am also of the opinion that the State Associations should run the lower divisions to get them off the ground.
My issue that no one has to date convinced me they have the solution to is the creation of a far bigger market for Football and to convert the player numbers. ... Johnny Warren on a gala day at Newcastle in 1965 said look at all the these players we will soon be number one.
Creating that market size and funding to the lower divisions has been the problem for well over 50 years... create a plan that CAN solve this and I am won... but I am yet to see anything that comes close under close analysis...
There is already a plan/model in place. It's from FIFA, but I keep forgetting, we are unique.
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Midfielder
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 4.5K,
Visits: 0
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+x+x+x+xRimbaudWelcome the discussion .... Sometimes to get something to work everyone needs to agree to a starting point. If the starting point can be agreed then what follows hopefully becomes discussion.... When you look at key decisions my personal experience is to attempt to remove personal bias, personal wants and be as dispassionate in looking at the facts before you. So my starting point is everyone agrees we need to go to P & R with a number of divisions. The argument becomes then IMO two fold, how long will it take, and what rules to get in. My other hope ... is hhhmmmm rrrrr how to explain .... I think this started about 30 years ago by the left when to win a debate you tried to destroy the credibility of who you where talking to... since then the right have taken this approach to a new level... talk back radio loves it... my hope is it can be discussed where people with similar ideas and outcomes can look and think about what others are saying as no one has all the smarts... Unfortunately you have been one of the worst offenders over the years, any decision that differed from the FFA's stated policy was challenged with something like "so you think you know better than the FFA?" which is hardly conducive to a good debate. It is abundantly clear that the FFA have lost touch with many in the football community, HAL, NPL, fans, grassroots football, and that they dont have all the answers. The challenge is will they listen now or will they carry on regardless? On the three most important issues of the day to the football community - Expansion, a second division, and promotion & relegation, can you honestly say what the FFA's position on any of them is? I can't, which means teh debate is taking place without the FFA's participation which only further isolates them from the football community OK peace pipe time mate ... whats annoyed me has been posters who IMO posted crazy ideas... yes maybe I went over the top as did both sides... The truth as I see it we are both right ... The trick in moving forward is as I said look at what well meaning as Waz said people say and analysis what they are saying... this applies equally to me as well ... My reasoning and logic is for growth you need a certain size market... IMO until we can crack the issue of player / watcher issue and I would also add and the massive influence other codes especially AFL have we risk a lot and if we go a little slower and build the market it is a safer option that takes longer .. I also need to consider more what posters like Waz & RBB say in that they believe the Australian Football market is ready ... An internal war between like minded folk on the best way forward is foolish ... Let me finish with some lines from the Moody Blues written by Justin Haywood in the song "Question" ... In the grey of the morning My mind becomes confused Between the dead and the sleeping And the Road That I must choose. The issue of player/watcher conversion lies partly in connecting the tiers. We have the largest player base in the country of any sport, we should be a powerhouse. We have a disconnect between the A-league or top tier with the traditional model of football ie a tiered pyramid. The connection and buy in you get from Joe public is "that my team can make it to the top tier". That is a powerful connection and one that truly resonates with football fans around the world. We are not unique. This is football. I wish deep down in my heart nay I would give almost anything for this to be right in the Australia sporting context today. Prior to FFA, the NSL had a far smaller fraction than . However and very very importantly it is what will happen and be the final driver ... how about that RBB when we talk we agree totally on the solution.. Our difference is the Football market in Australia today is not strong enough for this.... we have to work very hard nay fucking hard to get the Football market to the point when what you said can work. I think we are a few years away from it... does not mean we should not plan, lay down markers, develop it etc... But IMO we are nowhere ready for this to work in the Australian sporting environment today.
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aussie scott21
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 19K,
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+x+x+x+x+xRimbaudWelcome the discussion .... Sometimes to get something to work everyone needs to agree to a starting point. If the starting point can be agreed then what follows hopefully becomes discussion.... When you look at key decisions my personal experience is to attempt to remove personal bias, personal wants and be as dispassionate in looking at the facts before you. So my starting point is everyone agrees we need to go to P & R with a number of divisions. The argument becomes then IMO two fold, how long will it take, and what rules to get in. My other hope ... is hhhmmmm rrrrr how to explain .... I think this started about 30 years ago by the left when to win a debate you tried to destroy the credibility of who you where talking to... since then the right have taken this approach to a new level... talk back radio loves it... my hope is it can be discussed where people with similar ideas and outcomes can look and think about what others are saying as no one has all the smarts... Unfortunately you have been one of the worst offenders over the years, any decision that differed from the FFA's stated policy was challenged with something like "so you think you know better than the FFA?" which is hardly conducive to a good debate. It is abundantly clear that the FFA have lost touch with many in the football community, HAL, NPL, fans, grassroots football, and that they dont have all the answers. The challenge is will they listen now or will they carry on regardless? On the three most important issues of the day to the football community - Expansion, a second division, and promotion & relegation, can you honestly say what the FFA's position on any of them is? I can't, which means teh debate is taking place without the FFA's participation which only further isolates them from the football community OK peace pipe time mate ... whats annoyed me has been posters who IMO posted crazy ideas... yes maybe I went over the top as did both sides... The truth as I see it we are both right ... The trick in moving forward is as I said look at what well meaning as Waz said people say and analysis what they are saying... this applies equally to me as well ... My reasoning and logic is for growth you need a certain size market... IMO until we can crack the issue of player / watcher issue and I would also add and the massive influence other codes especially AFL have we risk a lot and if we go a little slower and build the market it is a safer option that takes longer .. I also need to consider more what posters like Waz & RBB say in that they believe the Australian Football market is ready ... An internal war between like minded folk on the best way forward is foolish ... Let me finish with some lines from the Moody Blues written by Justin Haywood in the song "Question" ... In the grey of the morning My mind becomes confused Between the dead and the sleeping And the Road That I must choose. The issue of player/watcher conversion lies partly in connecting the tiers. We have the largest player base in the country of any sport, we should be a powerhouse. We have a disconnect between the A-league or top tier with the traditional model of football ie a tiered pyramid. The connection and buy in you get from Joe public is "that my team can make it to the top tier". That is a powerful connection and one that truly resonates with football fans around the world. We are not unique. This is football. How anyone can argue that is beyond me Its greater than that imo. I live across the road from a div 3 club. However unlikely it is at least it is possible for them to make it to div 1. This means they could actually win div 1 and qualify for the Uefa Champions League, or finish 2nd or 3rd and qualify for Europa League or win the cup and qualify for Europa cup. Australia has none of this. FFA Cup isnt recognized. Clubs cant come into A-League. WSW showed it is possible to win ACL and were what 1 match away from Real Madrid? At least in the US the U.S: Open Cup winner qualifies for CONCACAF CL and all the clubs are linked internationally.
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Midfielder
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 4.5K,
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+x+x+x+xRimbaudWelcome the discussion .... Sometimes to get something to work everyone needs to agree to a starting point. If the starting point can be agreed then what follows hopefully becomes discussion.... When you look at key decisions my personal experience is to attempt to remove personal bias, personal wants and be as dispassionate in looking at the facts before you. So my starting point is everyone agrees we need to go to P & R with a number of divisions. The argument becomes then IMO two fold, how long will it take, and what rules to get in. My other hope ... is hhhmmmm rrrrr how to explain .... I think this started about 30 years ago by the left when to win a debate you tried to destroy the credibility of who you where talking to... since then the right have taken this approach to a new level... talk back radio loves it... my hope is it can be discussed where people with similar ideas and outcomes can look and think about what others are saying as no one has all the smarts... Unfortunately you have been one of the worst offenders over the years, any decision that differed from the FFA's stated policy was challenged with something like "so you think you know better than the FFA?" which is hardly conducive to a good debate. It is abundantly clear that the FFA have lost touch with many in the football community, HAL, NPL, fans, grassroots football, and that they dont have all the answers. The challenge is will they listen now or will they carry on regardless? On the three most important issues of the day to the football community - Expansion, a second division, and promotion & relegation, can you honestly say what the FFA's position on any of them is? I can't, which means teh debate is taking place without the FFA's participation which only further isolates them from the football community My reasoning and logic is for growth you need a certain size market... IMO until we can crack the issue of player / watcher issue and I would also add and the massive influence other codes especially AFL have we risk a lot and if we go a little slower and build the market it is a safer option that takes longer .. By slower you mean in 12 years we are at a size where we need an $80m TV deal to sustain 10 teams from a central pool of funds? Thats not what I said, and putting figures on it at this point in time does not help.
What I said was we all want P & R supported by a number of divisions.
My logic and experience says we have a lot of work to do to get to this position.
Others want change yesterday.
In some ways as a community we have become the moaning capital of the world … the expectations of what FFA can achieve in the short term, the quality of the league, the refs ... Have we lost perspective of where we are on the evolutionary journey … seems to me many what the end of the journey next week rather than work on it.. this was never going to be easy
There is no doubt we need some new leadership and many current issues FFA have on their plate are their own making...
Right now they have FIFA requirements centring around governance, expansion, P & R.
The errors of judgement are easy to find and easier to be critical of ...
However that does not mean that ideas and options put by others do not need analysis carried out on what people say... nor that they are right.... nor that others are right... Fozzie and Les Murray are currently be criticised by many on their Southern Bid by many ... so the answer is not as easy as many seem to think
I fully agree with RBB that the lower division need to be funded ... I am also of the opinion that the State Associations should run the lower divisions to get them off the ground.
My issue that no one has to date convinced me they have the solution to is the creation of a far bigger market for Football and to convert the player numbers. ... Johnny Warren on a gala day at Newcastle in 1965 said look at all the these players we will soon be number one.
Creating that market size and funding to the lower divisions has been the problem for well over 50 years... create a plan that CAN solve this and I am won... but I am yet to see anything that comes close under close analysis...
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aufc_ole
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 7K,
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+x+x+x+xRimbaudWelcome the discussion .... Sometimes to get something to work everyone needs to agree to a starting point. If the starting point can be agreed then what follows hopefully becomes discussion.... When you look at key decisions my personal experience is to attempt to remove personal bias, personal wants and be as dispassionate in looking at the facts before you. So my starting point is everyone agrees we need to go to P & R with a number of divisions. The argument becomes then IMO two fold, how long will it take, and what rules to get in. My other hope ... is hhhmmmm rrrrr how to explain .... I think this started about 30 years ago by the left when to win a debate you tried to destroy the credibility of who you where talking to... since then the right have taken this approach to a new level... talk back radio loves it... my hope is it can be discussed where people with similar ideas and outcomes can look and think about what others are saying as no one has all the smarts... Unfortunately you have been one of the worst offenders over the years, any decision that differed from the FFA's stated policy was challenged with something like "so you think you know better than the FFA?" which is hardly conducive to a good debate. It is abundantly clear that the FFA have lost touch with many in the football community, HAL, NPL, fans, grassroots football, and that they dont have all the answers. The challenge is will they listen now or will they carry on regardless? On the three most important issues of the day to the football community - Expansion, a second division, and promotion & relegation, can you honestly say what the FFA's position on any of them is? I can't, which means teh debate is taking place without the FFA's participation which only further isolates them from the football community OK peace pipe time mate ... whats annoyed me has been posters who IMO posted crazy ideas... yes maybe I went over the top as did both sides... The truth as I see it we are both right ... The trick in moving forward is as I said look at what well meaning as Waz said people say and analysis what they are saying... this applies equally to me as well ... My reasoning and logic is for growth you need a certain size market... IMO until we can crack the issue of player / watcher issue and I would also add and the massive influence other codes especially AFL have we risk a lot and if we go a little slower and build the market it is a safer option that takes longer .. I also need to consider more what posters like Waz & RBB say in that they believe the Australian Football market is ready ... An internal war between like minded folk on the best way forward is foolish ... Let me finish with some lines from the Moody Blues written by Justin Haywood in the song "Question" ... In the grey of the morning My mind becomes confused Between the dead and the sleeping And the Road That I must choose. The issue of player/watcher conversion lies partly in connecting the tiers. We have the largest player base in the country of any sport, we should be a powerhouse. We have a disconnect between the A-league or top tier with the traditional model of football ie a tiered pyramid. The connection and buy in you get from Joe public is "that my team can make it to the top tier". That is a powerful connection and one that truly resonates with football fans around the world. We are not unique. This is football. How anyone can argue that is beyond me
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bluebird
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 10K,
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+x+x+xRimbaudWelcome the discussion .... Sometimes to get something to work everyone needs to agree to a starting point. If the starting point can be agreed then what follows hopefully becomes discussion.... When you look at key decisions my personal experience is to attempt to remove personal bias, personal wants and be as dispassionate in looking at the facts before you. So my starting point is everyone agrees we need to go to P & R with a number of divisions. The argument becomes then IMO two fold, how long will it take, and what rules to get in. My other hope ... is hhhmmmm rrrrr how to explain .... I think this started about 30 years ago by the left when to win a debate you tried to destroy the credibility of who you where talking to... since then the right have taken this approach to a new level... talk back radio loves it... my hope is it can be discussed where people with similar ideas and outcomes can look and think about what others are saying as no one has all the smarts... Unfortunately you have been one of the worst offenders over the years, any decision that differed from the FFA's stated policy was challenged with something like "so you think you know better than the FFA?" which is hardly conducive to a good debate. It is abundantly clear that the FFA have lost touch with many in the football community, HAL, NPL, fans, grassroots football, and that they dont have all the answers. The challenge is will they listen now or will they carry on regardless? On the three most important issues of the day to the football community - Expansion, a second division, and promotion & relegation, can you honestly say what the FFA's position on any of them is? I can't, which means teh debate is taking place without the FFA's participation which only further isolates them from the football community My reasoning and logic is for growth you need a certain size market... IMO until we can crack the issue of player / watcher issue and I would also add and the massive influence other codes especially AFL have we risk a lot and if we go a little slower and build the market it is a safer option that takes longer .. By slower you mean in 12 years we are at a size where we need an $80m TV deal to sustain 10 teams from a central pool of funds? That's not slow growth. That is foolish growth If the FFA simply paid minimal and let clubs cover the rest, there wouldn't be a problem. The issue is the cost of balance. Helping CCM and NCJ compete upwards while turning away owner investment and expenditure from the bigger clubs The FFA chose to mimic a model that is run from leagues that have billion dollar TV deals. That's the "certain size" we need to be unless we change to a cheaper, unbalanced league (which a low cost 2nd tier will support)
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And Everyone Blamed Clive
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 6.3K,
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+x+x+x+xRimbaudWelcome the discussion .... Sometimes to get something to work everyone needs to agree to a starting point. If the starting point can be agreed then what follows hopefully becomes discussion.... When you look at key decisions my personal experience is to attempt to remove personal bias, personal wants and be as dispassionate in looking at the facts before you. So my starting point is everyone agrees we need to go to P & R with a number of divisions. The argument becomes then IMO two fold, how long will it take, and what rules to get in. My other hope ... is hhhmmmm rrrrr how to explain .... I think this started about 30 years ago by the left when to win a debate you tried to destroy the credibility of who you where talking to... since then the right have taken this approach to a new level... talk back radio loves it... my hope is it can be discussed where people with similar ideas and outcomes can look and think about what others are saying as no one has all the smarts... Unfortunately you have been one of the worst offenders over the years, any decision that differed from the FFA's stated policy was challenged with something like "so you think you know better than the FFA?" which is hardly conducive to a good debate. It is abundantly clear that the FFA have lost touch with many in the football community, HAL, NPL, fans, grassroots football, and that they dont have all the answers. The challenge is will they listen now or will they carry on regardless? On the three most important issues of the day to the football community - Expansion, a second division, and promotion & relegation, can you honestly say what the FFA's position on any of them is? I can't, which means teh debate is taking place without the FFA's participation which only further isolates them from the football community OK peace pipe time mate ... whats annoyed me has been posters who IMO posted crazy ideas... yes maybe I went over the top as did both sides... The truth as I see it we are both right ... The trick in moving forward is as I said look at what well meaning as Waz said people say and analysis what they are saying... this applies equally to me as well ... My reasoning and logic is for growth you need a certain size market... IMO until we can crack the issue of player / watcher issue and I would also add and the massive influence other codes especially AFL have we risk a lot and if we go a little slower and build the market it is a safer option that takes longer .. I also need to consider more what posters like Waz & RBB say in that they believe the Australian Football market is ready ... An internal war between like minded folk on the best way forward is foolish ... Let me finish with some lines from the Moody Blues written by Justin Haywood in the song "Question" ... In the grey of the morning My mind becomes confused Between the dead and the sleeping And the Road That I must choose. The issue of player/watcher conversion lies partly in connecting the tiers. We have the largest player base in the country of any sport, we should be a powerhouse. We have a disconnect between the A-league or top tier with the traditional model of football ie a tiered pyramid. The connection and buy in you get from Joe public is "that my team can make it to the top tier". That is a powerful connection and one that truly resonates with football fans around the world. We are not unique. This is football. Yet you support the Cartel
Winner of Official 442 Comment of the day Award - 10th April 2017
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RBBAnonymous
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 3.8K,
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+x+x+xRimbaudWelcome the discussion .... Sometimes to get something to work everyone needs to agree to a starting point. If the starting point can be agreed then what follows hopefully becomes discussion.... When you look at key decisions my personal experience is to attempt to remove personal bias, personal wants and be as dispassionate in looking at the facts before you. So my starting point is everyone agrees we need to go to P & R with a number of divisions. The argument becomes then IMO two fold, how long will it take, and what rules to get in. My other hope ... is hhhmmmm rrrrr how to explain .... I think this started about 30 years ago by the left when to win a debate you tried to destroy the credibility of who you where talking to... since then the right have taken this approach to a new level... talk back radio loves it... my hope is it can be discussed where people with similar ideas and outcomes can look and think about what others are saying as no one has all the smarts... Unfortunately you have been one of the worst offenders over the years, any decision that differed from the FFA's stated policy was challenged with something like "so you think you know better than the FFA?" which is hardly conducive to a good debate. It is abundantly clear that the FFA have lost touch with many in the football community, HAL, NPL, fans, grassroots football, and that they dont have all the answers. The challenge is will they listen now or will they carry on regardless? On the three most important issues of the day to the football community - Expansion, a second division, and promotion & relegation, can you honestly say what the FFA's position on any of them is? I can't, which means teh debate is taking place without the FFA's participation which only further isolates them from the football community OK peace pipe time mate ... whats annoyed me has been posters who IMO posted crazy ideas... yes maybe I went over the top as did both sides... The truth as I see it we are both right ... The trick in moving forward is as I said look at what well meaning as Waz said people say and analysis what they are saying... this applies equally to me as well ... My reasoning and logic is for growth you need a certain size market... IMO until we can crack the issue of player / watcher issue and I would also add and the massive influence other codes especially AFL have we risk a lot and if we go a little slower and build the market it is a safer option that takes longer .. I also need to consider more what posters like Waz & RBB say in that they believe the Australian Football market is ready ... An internal war between like minded folk on the best way forward is foolish ... Let me finish with some lines from the Moody Blues written by Justin Haywood in the song "Question" ... In the grey of the morning My mind becomes confused Between the dead and the sleeping And the Road That I must choose. The issue of player/watcher conversion lies partly in connecting the tiers. We have the largest player base in the country of any sport, we should be a powerhouse. We have a disconnect between the A-league or top tier with the traditional model of football ie a tiered pyramid. The connection and buy in you get from Joe public is "that my team can make it to the top tier". That is a powerful connection and one that truly resonates with football fans around the world. We are not unique. This is football.
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Midfielder
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 4.5K,
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+x+xRimbaudWelcome the discussion .... Sometimes to get something to work everyone needs to agree to a starting point. If the starting point can be agreed then what follows hopefully becomes discussion.... When you look at key decisions my personal experience is to attempt to remove personal bias, personal wants and be as dispassionate in looking at the facts before you. So my starting point is everyone agrees we need to go to P & R with a number of divisions. The argument becomes then IMO two fold, how long will it take, and what rules to get in. My other hope ... is hhhmmmm rrrrr how to explain .... I think this started about 30 years ago by the left when to win a debate you tried to destroy the credibility of who you where talking to... since then the right have taken this approach to a new level... talk back radio loves it... my hope is it can be discussed where people with similar ideas and outcomes can look and think about what others are saying as no one has all the smarts... Unfortunately you have been one of the worst offenders over the years, any decision that differed from the FFA's stated policy was challenged with something like "so you think you know better than the FFA?" which is hardly conducive to a good debate. It is abundantly clear that the FFA have lost touch with many in the football community, HAL, NPL, fans, grassroots football, and that they dont have all the answers. The challenge is will they listen now or will they carry on regardless? On the three most important issues of the day to the football community - Expansion, a second division, and promotion & relegation, can you honestly say what the FFA's position on any of them is? I can't, which means teh debate is taking place without the FFA's participation which only further isolates them from the football community OK peace pipe time mate ... whats annoyed me has been posters who IMO posted crazy ideas... yes maybe I went over the top as did both sides... The truth as I see it we are both right ... The trick in moving forward is as I said look at what well meaning as Waz said people say and analysis what they are saying... this applies equally to me as well ... My reasoning and logic is for growth you need a certain size market... IMO until we can crack the issue of player / watcher issue and I would also add and the massive influence other codes especially AFL have we risk a lot and if we go a little slower and build the market it is a safer option that takes longer .. I also need to consider more what posters like Waz & RBB say in that they believe the Australian Football market is ready ... An internal war between like minded folk on the best way forward is foolish ... Let me finish with some lines from the Moody Blues written by Justin Haywood in the song "Question" ... In the grey of the morning My mind becomes confused Between the dead and the sleeping And the Road That I must choose.
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RBBAnonymous
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+x57% of $50 mill isn't really a lot of money. For 10 clubs, that covers a salary cap of $2.9 mill. Do you know what the next TV deal is? A combine A-league, 2nd tier to Fox
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pippinu
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57% of $50 mill isn't really a lot of money.
For 10 clubs, that covers a salary cap of $2.9 mill.
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FullBack4
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+xIn my opinion we need to start pouring more money into a 2nd tier at the expense of the A-league. Otherwise P & R will never happen and I have mentioned this on more than one occasion. This is because the gap between the A-league and the NPL is already too large. Subsequent TV deals after this one will only exacerbate the problem and make the gap even larger. So while everyone says lets have P & R when we are ready, they don't know what they are talking about. At some point in the near future you have to start planning for it and this is the opportunity. Anytime someone says we should have P & R when we are ready in 30 years time doesn't know what they are talking about because by that stage it is already too late. If teams are not ready now and lets face it they are not, how are they going to be even more ready after 2-3 more tv deals where all the money is going to the A-league. We need a 2nd tier and it needs to happen before the next tv deal. Edit - yes and no; "at the expense of the A League" doesn't sit well with me, the FFA generates $140m in revenues a year, the A League is responsible for $80m of that, the FFA needs to take the hit not the A League and any investment needs to go in to a second division AND the A League, not one or the other. No I understand what you are saying. I think the TV deal is total unbalanced right now. The FFA should get 30% at most, while the A-league clubs get 70%. Subsequent TV deals after this more money should be poured into a 2nd tier with that sort of split in mind. Except it might look like: FFA - 20%, A-league 57% 2nd tier 23% The FFA costs are mostly fixed so as we get more money their cut of the TV deal should decrease as a percentage. Edit - The TV deal should be viewed as the A-league and 2nd tier combined when we negotiate with Fox. yes. If the FFA maintain their costs flat with the new TV deal, increase the clubs allocation, then there is still money left over to fund Division 2
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RBBAnonymous
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 3.8K,
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+x+xIn my opinion we need to start pouring more money into a 2nd tier at the expense of the A-league. Otherwise P & R will never happen and I have mentioned this on more than one occasion. This is because the gap between the A-league and the NPL is already too large. Subsequent TV deals after this one will only exacerbate the problem and make the gap even larger. So while everyone says lets have P & R when we are ready, they don't know what they are talking about. At some point in the near future you have to start planning for it and this is the opportunity. Anytime someone says we should have P & R when we are ready in 30 years time doesn't know what they are talking about because by that stage it is already too late. If teams are not ready now and lets face it they are not, how are they going to be even more ready after 2-3 more tv deals where all the money is going to the A-league. We need a 2nd tier and it needs to happen before the next tv deal. Edit - yes and no; "at the expense of the A League" doesn't sit well with me, the FFA generates $140m in revenues a year, the A League is responsible for $80m of that, the FFA needs to take the hit not the A League and any investment needs to go in to a second division AND the A League, not one or the other. No I understand what you are saying. I think the TV deal is total unbalanced right now. The FFA should get 30% at most, while the A-league clubs get 70%. Subsequent TV deals after this more money should be poured into a 2nd tier with that sort of split in mind. Except it might look like: FFA - 20%, A-league 57% 2nd tier 23% The FFA costs are mostly fixed so as we get more money their cut of the TV deal should decrease as a percentage. Edit - The TV deal should be viewed as the A-league and 2nd tier combined when we negotiate with Fox.
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aussieshorter
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 2.2K,
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+xIn my opinion we need to start pouring more money into a 2nd tier at the expense of the A-league. Otherwise P & R will never happen and I have mentioned this on more than one occasion. This is because the gap between the A-league and the NPL is already too large. Subsequent TV deals after this one will only exacerbate the problem and make the gap even larger. So while everyone says lets have P & R when we are ready, they don't know what they are talking about. At some point in the near future you have to start planning for it and this is the opportunity. Anytime someone says we should have P & R when we are ready in 30 years time doesn't know what they are talking about because by that stage it is already too late. If teams are not ready now and lets face it they are not, how are they going to be even more ready after 2-3 more tv deals where all the money is going to the A-league. We need a 2nd tier and it needs to happen before the next tv deal. I completely agree, except for doing it at the expense of the A-League. It can be done without taking anything from our top level. Any delay in adding a second and third division will only cause the gap to grow, making it more difficult to implement in the future, and the same goes for promotion and relegation. Expansion of the A-League in isolation will also cause the gap to widen and make it more difficult to fix in the future. Right now is the best time for change, because it's the easiest it'll ever be.
____________________________________________________________________________ TPO Rankings - the FIFA World Rankings for Australian football clubs 
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FullBack4
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 697,
Visits: 0
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+xIn my opinion we need to start pouring more money into a 2nd tier at the expense of the A-league. Otherwise P & R will never happen and I have mentioned this on more than one occasion. This is because the gap between the A-league and the NPL is already too large. Subsequent TV deals after this one will only exacerbate the problem and make the gap even larger. So while everyone says lets have P & R when we are ready, they don't know what they are talking about. At some point in the near future you have to start planning for it and this is the opportunity. Anytime someone says we should have P & R when we are ready in 30 years time doesn't know what they are talking about because by that stage it is already too late. If teams are not ready now and lets face it they are not, how are they going to be even more ready after 2-3 more tv deals where all the money is going to the A-league. We need a 2nd tier and it needs to happen before the next tv deal. yes and no; "at the expense of the A League" doesn't sit well with me, the FFA generates $140m in revenues a year, the A League is responsible for $80m of that, the FFA needs to take the hit not the A League and any investment needs to go in to a second division AND the A League, not one or the other.
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FullBack4
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 697,
Visits: 0
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+xRimbaudWelcome the discussion .... Sometimes to get something to work everyone needs to agree to a starting point. If the starting point can be agreed then what follows hopefully becomes discussion.... When you look at key decisions my personal experience is to attempt to remove personal bias, personal wants and be as dispassionate in looking at the facts before you. So my starting point is everyone agrees we need to go to P & R with a number of divisions. The argument becomes then IMO two fold, how long will it take, and what rules to get in. My other hope ... is hhhmmmm rrrrr how to explain .... I think this started about 30 years ago by the left when to win a debate you tried to destroy the credibility of who you where talking to... since then the right have taken this approach to a new level... talk back radio loves it... my hope is it can be discussed where people with similar ideas and outcomes can look and think about what others are saying as no one has all the smarts... Unfortunately you have been one of the worst offenders over the years, any decision that differed from the FFA's stated policy was challenged with something like "so you think you know better than the FFA?" which is hardly conducive to a good debate. It is abundantly clear that the FFA have lost touch with many in the football community, HAL, NPL, fans, grassroots football, and that they dont have all the answers. The challenge is will they listen now or will they carry on regardless? On the three most important issues of the day to the football community - Expansion, a second division, and promotion & relegation, can you honestly say what the FFA's position on any of them is? I can't, which means teh debate is taking place without the FFA's participation which only further isolates them from the football community
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RBBAnonymous
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 3.8K,
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In my opinion we need to start pouring more money into a 2nd tier at the expense of the A-league. Otherwise P & R will never happen and I have mentioned this on more than one occasion. This is because the gap between the A-league and the NPL is already too large. Subsequent TV deals after this one will only exacerbate the problem and make the gap even larger. So while everyone says lets have P & R when we are ready, they don't know what they are talking about. At some point in the near future you have to start planning for it and this is the opportunity. Anytime someone says we should have P & R when we are ready in 30 years time doesn't know what they are talking about because by that stage it is already too late. If teams are not ready now and lets face it they are not, how are they going to be even more ready after 2-3 more tv deals where all the money is going to the A-league. We need a 2nd tier and it needs to happen before the next tv deal.
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