World Politics/Global Events


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Aljay
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Sucks to have to obey the law then, doesn't it.
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Dial It In - 6 Jun 2017 5:04 PM
mouflonrouge - 6 Jun 2017 4:55 PM

Yes, some of them spoke & of those that spoke the majority didn't want Trump

So what! Trump got the votes in the right place and won the College. 

Once again, changing the goal posts when the rules have been the same since Abraham Lincoln. 
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Aljay - 6 Jun 2017 5:32 PM
Sucks to have to obey the law then, doesn't it.

Nah, its more ignorance at the voting booth sucks
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mouflonrouge - 6 Jun 2017 5:44 PM
Dial It In - 6 Jun 2017 5:04 PM

So what! Trump got the votes in the right place and won the College. 

Once again, changing the goal posts when the rules have been the same since Abraham Lincoln. 

No, I responded to your statement. Logically.
Electoral College has nothing to do with 'the people' wanting Trump
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Dial It In - 6 Jun 2017 5:04 PM
mouflonrouge - 6 Jun 2017 4:55 PM
 
Yes, some of them spoke & of those that spoke the majority didn't want Trump

It's the same in Australia. Governments are not formed by majority of votes but a majority in seats. 

Those be the rules. 

And yes, the college system is designed to give smaller States in the USA an adequate say. Trump got the votes in more States and therefore won the college votes in those states whereas Hillary just dominated some major population centres like NYC, LA and so forth. 
Edited
8 Years Ago by mouflonrouge
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mouflonrouge - 6 Jun 2017 5:58 PM
Dial It In - 6 Jun 2017 5:04 PM

It's the same in Australia. Governments are not formed by majority of votes but a majority in seats. 

Those be the rules. 

And yes, the college system is designed to give smaller States in the USA an adequate say. Trump got the votes in more States and therefore won the college votes in those states whereas Hillary just dominated some major population centres like NYC, LA and so forth. 

Otherwise you get a situation where dipshits like Dial it in controlling with other late sipping inner city flogs and the working class having no say whatsoever and never again in the foreseeable future.


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Dial It In - 6 Jun 2017 5:47 PM
mouflonrouge - 6 Jun 2017 5:44 PM

No, I responded to your statement. Logically.
Electoral College has nothing to do with 'the people' wanting Trump

Electoral college ensures that the president is not decided by just New York/New Jersey and California.

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TheSelectFew - 7 Jun 2017 2:24 PM
mouflonrouge - 6 Jun 2017 5:58 PM

Otherwise you get a situation where dipshits like Dial it in controlling with other late sipping inner city flogs and the working class having no say whatsoever and never again in the foreseeable future.

Was just in the USA. Every person I met between Charlotte NC and Dallas TX resented those people you describe who seem to live in either California or New York/New jersey :laugh:

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BETHFC - 7 Jun 2017 3:01 PM
Dial It In - 6 Jun 2017 5:47 PM

Electoral college ensures that the president is not decided by just New York/New Jersey and California.

Same old rubbish. If that's where most of the people live, I don't see a problem with that. Congress has local representatives and therefore policies are not just decided by "New York, New Jersey and California". The senate is set up so that all states have equal representation regardless of size, again policies are not just decided by ""New York, New Jersey and California".

Why should the vote from someone in Wyoming be worth more than 3x the vote of someone in Pennsylvania when the president is a single elected official representing the entire nation?


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Edited
8 Years Ago by mcjules
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mcjules - 7 Jun 2017 3:29 PM
BETHFC - 7 Jun 2017 3:01 PM

Same old rubbish. If that's where most of the people live, I don't see a problem with that. Congress has local representatives and therefore policies are not just decided by "New York, New Jersey and California". The senate is set up so that all states have equal representation regardless of size, again policies are not just decided by ""New York, New Jersey and California".

Why should the vote from someone in Wyoming be worth more than 3x the vote of someone in Pennsylvania when the president is a single elected official representing the entire nation?

Why should the will of Snowflake states (term I was exposed to in the USA, can't claim it as my own) like California and New Jersey dictate what happens in South Carolina? America is enormous and incomparable to our voting system.

The attitudes of the larger areas (I only recently returned from the USA) are completely different to those of the south west. Anything related to federal politics in the USA being virtually decided by 2 geographical centres is absolutely ridiculous.

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BETHFC - 7 Jun 2017 4:40 PM
mcjules - 7 Jun 2017 3:29 PM

Why should the will of Snowflake states (term I was exposed to in the USA, can't claim it as my own) like California and New Jersey dictate what happens in South Carolina? America is enormous and incomparable to our voting system.

The attitudes of the larger areas (I only recently returned from the USA) are completely different to those of the south west. Anything related to federal politics in the USA being virtually decided by 2 geographical centres is absolutely ridiculous.

It should be noted that only 5 presidents EVER have lost the popular vote and won the electoral college vote (since 1824 onwards). Prior to Trump it was Bush in 2000, and it hadn't happened before that since 1888. Trump had the third largest margin (only eclipsed by the margin in the 1824 and 1876 elections). So in other words no one with so few popular votes had been elected to the US Presidency for 140 years (or in the last 35 Presidential elections).

So most the time the popular vote is reflective of the electoral college vote too.
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sokorny - 7 Jun 2017 5:24 PM
BETHFC - 7 Jun 2017 4:40 PM

It should be noted that only 5 presidents EVER have lost the popular vote and won the electoral college vote (since 1824 onwards). Prior to Trump it was Bush in 2000, and it hadn't happened before that since 1888. Trump had the third largest margin (only eclipsed by the margin in the 1824 and 1876 elections). So in other words no one with so few popular votes had been elected to the US Presidency for 140 years (or in the last 35 Presidential elections).

So most the time the popular vote is reflective of the electoral college vote too.

Didn't Clinton neglect to campaign in some states?

I'm sorry but it was well established the rules of getting to presidency. Getting out of touch Hollywood millionaires to push your campaign message is surely not the way to proceed.


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TheSelectFew - 7 Jun 2017 5:32 PM
sokorny - 7 Jun 2017 5:24 PM

Didn't Clinton neglect to campaign in some states?

I'm sorry but it was well established the rules of getting to presidency. Getting out of touch Hollywood millionaires to push your campaign message is surely not the way to proceed.

I think she "neglected" the states she thought she would not win. She then lost some states she was expected to win ... where I am guessing she did campaign.

I don't know how much support Clinton had from celebrities ... most seemed more opposed to Trump than supportive of Clinton per se. Probably her biggest downfall, she focused too much on the man and not the game (policies). Trump trolled her well at times too, and she took the bait (especially in the debates).

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sokorny - 7 Jun 2017 6:12 PM
TheSelectFew - 7 Jun 2017 5:32 PM

I think she "neglected" the states she thought she would not win. She then lost some states she was expected to win ... where I am guessing she did campaign.

I don't know how much support Clinton had from celebrities ... most seemed more opposed to Trump than supportive of Clinton per se. Probably her biggest downfall, she focused too much on the man and not the game (policies). Trump trolled her well at times too, and she took the bait (especially in the debates).

So she neglected them. It was a yes or no answer. She was arrogant and lost. This is why the system is in place.

As for the rest, you didn't see, obviously,  her I'm with her campaign. Full of celebs and crap. Was rubbish. Hell even Mexicans couldnt stand her.


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BETHFC - 7 Jun 2017 4:40 PM
mcjules - 7 Jun 2017 3:29 PM

Why should the will of Snowflake states (term I was exposed to in the USA, can't claim it as my own) like California and New Jersey dictate what happens in South Carolina? America is enormous and incomparable to our voting system.

The attitudes of the larger areas (I only recently returned from the USA) are completely different to those of the south west. Anything related to federal politics in the USA being virtually decided by 2 geographical centres is absolutely ridiculous.

I just explained that they don't dictate because South Carolina and other smaller states are over represented in the senate and have local reps that should be voting for their interests in congress. I'm talking about their system not ours though a lot of it is directly comparable to theirs as we based certain ideas about our Federalism on their system.

So 2 geographic centres is bad but the current 4 or 5 "swing states" deciding elections in the current system is awesome.


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Comey's opening statement looks juicy, hopefully the rest of the senate hearing is.

-PB

https://i.imgur.com/batge7K.jpg

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mcjules - 7 Jun 2017 9:55 PM
BETHFC - 7 Jun 2017 4:40 PM

I just explained that they don't dictate because South Carolina and other smaller states are over represented in the senate and have local reps that should be voting for their interests in congress. I'm talking about their system not ours though a lot of it is directly comparable to theirs as we based certain ideas about our Federalism on their system.

So 2 geographic centres is bad but the current 4 or 5 "swing states" deciding elections in the current system is awesome.

Nah all g let New York City dictate so you can hug your safety blanket tighter.


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TheSelectFew - 7 Jun 2017 5:32 PM
sokorny - 7 Jun 2017 5:24 PM

Didn't Clinton neglect to campaign in some states?

I'm sorry but it was well established the rules of getting to presidency. Getting out of touch Hollywood millionaires to push your campaign message is surely not the way to proceed.

You do realise that Trump is a celebrity millionaire??
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TheSelectFew - 8 Jun 2017 10:18 AM
mcjules - 7 Jun 2017 9:55 PM

Nah all g let New York City dictate so you can hug your safety blanket tighter.

Didn't expect a sensible response from you (though I didn't solicit one either).

Have never really heard a logical argument outside of potentially believing that it's right to take federalism to the nth degree but even then the system is pretty arbitrarily implemented.

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paulbagzFC - 8 Jun 2017 9:33 AM
Comey's opening statement looks juicy, hopefully the rest of the senate hearing is.

-PB

I don't think there will be any legal ramifications, although I think it will hit him hard in the polls (I think he is already below 40% popularity ... most President's don't hit that low until the end of their terms).

Not sure what the workplace rules are in America regarding unfair dismissal. In essence it appears that Trump fired Comey because he wouldn't stop an investigation at the President's behest (which he doesn't have the legal jurisdiction to do). I wonder if the investigation is still ongoing ... if not, then there may be a case for obstruction of justice against the President.
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TheSelectFew - 7 Jun 2017 2:24 PM
mouflonrouge - 6 Jun 2017 5:58 PM

Otherwise you get a situation where dipshits like Dial it in controlling with other late sipping inner city flogs and the working class having no say whatsoever and never again in the foreseeable future.

Good to see mods doing their job on forum rules....
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Dial It In - 8 Jun 2017 2:21 PM
TheSelectFew - 7 Jun 2017 2:24 PM

Good to see mods doing their job on forum rules....

You make a decent point. TheSelectFew, you could easily make your point as effectively without the petty name calling.

Seeming we're on decent points about enforcing forum rules, what's your opinion on mods letting a user that's been banned 3 times run a multi? 

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sokorny - 7 Jun 2017 5:24 PM
BETHFC - 7 Jun 2017 4:40 PM

It should be noted that only 5 presidents EVER have lost the popular vote and won the electoral college vote (since 1824 onwards). Prior to Trump it was Bush in 2000, and it hadn't happened before that since 1888. Trump had the third largest margin (only eclipsed by the margin in the 1824 and 1876 elections). So in other words no one with so few popular votes had been elected to the US Presidency for 140 years (or in the last 35 Presidential elections).

So most the time the popular vote is reflective of the electoral college vote too.

I think the fact that Trump got elected without the popular vote further reinforces where his popularity lies.

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mcjules - 8 Jun 2017 2:52 PM
Dial It In - 8 Jun 2017 2:21 PM

You make a decent point. TheSelectFew, you could easily make your point as effectively without the petty name calling.

Seeming we're on decent points about enforcing forum rules, what's your opinion on mods letting a user that's been banned 3 times run a multi? 

Well considering mods don't enforce rules on here, anything's possible when it comes to 'logical consistency'
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mcjules - 7 Jun 2017 9:55 PM
BETHFC - 7 Jun 2017 4:40 PM

I just explained that they don't dictate because South Carolina and other smaller states are over represented in the senate and have local reps that should be voting for their interests in congress. I'm talking about their system not ours though a lot of it is directly comparable to theirs as we based certain ideas about our Federalism on their system.

So 2 geographic centres is bad but the current 4 or 5 "swing states" deciding elections in the current system is awesome.

Over represented?

The Electoral College ensures that the presidential results are not urban-centric which is what was intended I believe. The argument for the Electoral College is that the votes better represent America as a whole rather than the vote representing what urban centres want. Even with the E.C, California is still the most powerful state when it comes to voter representation, depending on which method you use.  

Arguments against are obviously that it's not 'true' democracy, that this model forces intense campaigning in swing states and that the E.C represents more people in larger states compared to small ones.

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Dial It In - 8 Jun 2017 3:31 PM
mcjules - 8 Jun 2017 2:52 PM

Well considering mods don't enforce rules on here, anything's possible when it comes to 'logical consistency'

If they did perhaps you might have issues for questioning the intelligence of certain types of people.....

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BETHFC - 8 Jun 2017 3:33 PM
Dial It In - 8 Jun 2017 3:31 PM

If they did perhaps you might have issues for questioning the intelligence of certain types of people.....

it would probably allow less swearing & personal insults, that people use as a proxy for an 'argument'.
Pertinently, you tend to find the less intelligent use said proxy....
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Dial It In - 8 Jun 2017 3:35 PM
BETHFC - 8 Jun 2017 3:33 PM

it would probably allow less swearing & personal insults, that people use as a proxy for an 'argument'.
Pertinently, you tend to find the less intelligent use said proxy....

Questioning the intelligence of a person holding certain beliefs is a personal insult. Particularly when said person is using it to discredit an opinion based on a fallacious stereotype.

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mcjules - 7 Jun 2017 3:29 PM
BETHFC - 7 Jun 2017 3:01 PM

Same old rubbish. If that's where most of the people live, I don't see a problem with that. Congress has local representatives and therefore policies are not just decided by "New York, New Jersey and California". The senate is set up so that all states have equal representation regardless of size, again policies are not just decided by ""New York, New Jersey and California".

Why should the vote from someone in Wyoming be worth more than 3x the vote of someone in Pennsylvania when the president is a single elected official representing the entire nation?

I remember having the exact same argument (dunno if it was with you) about the Australian Senate.

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BETHFC - 8 Jun 2017 3:32 PM
mcjules - 7 Jun 2017 9:55 PM

Over represented?

The Electoral College ensures that the presidential results are not urban-centric which is what was intended I believe. The argument for the Electoral College is that the votes better represent America as a whole rather than the vote representing what urban centres want. Even with the E.C, California is still the most powerful state when it comes to voter representation, depending on which method you use.  

Arguments against are obviously that it's not 'true' democracy, that this model forces intense campaigning in swing states and that the E.C represents more people in larger states compared to small ones.

It's hard to have a discussion when one side doesn't know the basic facts even when I explicitly laid out why not even a page ago

It was intended as another convoluted federalist move to give power to smaller states. It just doesn't make sense when there are other checks and balances in place (again listed them already). 1 representative for the whole country being voted in by the majority of the country should be how it is.

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