National second division is kicking off with or without FFA


National second division is kicking off with or without FFA

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Nobody has danced rings around the FFA.
It’s the FFA that has saved the domestic game from the horror of the NSL
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At the end of the day it isn't that important which teams are in which tier. The most important aspect is that the tiers are all connected in a meaningful way. You need to get the right structures in place and all the mechanisms right, the whole framework. THAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT.

The beauty of pro/rel is that over time say 15-20 years you will get a true reflection of where clubs are at and who deserves to be in the A-league and who doesn't. I think in the long term what you will get is something truly rewarding and when you look back you will wonder what were we all worried about. Over the long term in the A-league we might expect 2-3 ex NSL clubs to be challenging or should I say struggling to stay in the A-league. What I would expect to see is a lot more mergers and rationalization of clubs to occur and new entrants in the market. Any club who doesn't look to make their club professional or who isn't looking forward WILL be left behind, this includes all the NSL tinpot clubs that some posters are overly concerned about. That is what pro/rel will do if you allow it. It should be a relatively automatic process where the weak are weeded out over the long term, where clubs who rely just on their ethnic base will be weeded out, it will force clubs to adapt and to adapt quickly. It will be absolutely brutal in its application, which is the whole point of this exercise. It would re-energize the league and every year refresh the league. It is something to look forward to and not be concerned about because at the end of the day it will result in the best teams being in the A-league and that's what you want. 



 







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@RBBBAnnonymous - well said. The problem in a nut shell. For all the FFA's not wanting the likes of South Melbourne in, the simple solution is let them in and, over time, let them sink (if that is where they'll be at). If they deserve to be there, good on them!!!!!
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ErogenousZone - 31 Oct 2017 11:29 AM
Roberts1 - 30 Oct 2017 5:22 PM

Your moronic attitude says to me your know absolutely zero about the inside of football clubs or football in general if you don't know that top flight state league clubs are spending that much already.  The amount of money that is being bandied about in state league competitions currently is quite significant & the 2.5 million isn't really that far out from what they are currently spending at the moment.  


Exactly! This is what I've been saying. The extra costs associated with a 2nd division are tiny compared to amount they already spend. What is travel costs of a few hundred dollars per players when you are already paying him over 1k/week. Even if there were no extra income (which there WILL be) the big clubs could still aford it. 
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‘At the end of the day it isn’t important which team is in which tier’
It is important - it’s all about KPIs, driving up TV viewing numbers, attendances.
These come from having teams in the more populated areas. In the main this has been achieved.
We can’t lose any of the existing teams due to relegation. We have wonderful Sydney and Melbourne derbies and the major cities have teams.
P&R could see major contributors disappear and the income streams reduce
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Benjamin - 31 Oct 2017 5:39 PM
aussieshorter - 31 Oct 2017 5:29 PM

If they link NPL/Championship (as they hopefully will long term) there's nothing to stop clubs operating sides in both competitions.  In the event the club wins the lower league they simply can't be promoted to the higher one.

There's nothing to stop them, I just don't like it.

Same argument could be made for an A-League club entering a second team in the Championship.  I'd just rather see a completely new club have a chance at the NPL level instead of another club's second team.  Not a deal breaker, just my preference.

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RBBAnonymous - 31 Oct 2017 5:53 PM
At the end of the day it isn't that important which teams are in which tier. The most important aspect is that the tiers are all connected in a meaningful way. You need to get the right structures in place and all the mechanisms right, the whole framework. THAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT.

The beauty of pro/rel is that over time say 15-20 years you will get a true reflection of where clubs are at and who deserves to be in the A-league and who doesn't. I think in the long term what you will get is something truly rewarding and when you look back you will wonder what were we all worried about. Over the long term in the A-league we might expect 2-3 ex NSL clubs to be challenging or should I say struggling to stay in the A-league. What I would expect to see is a lot more mergers and rationalization of clubs to occur and new entrants in the market. Any club who doesn't look to make their club professional or who isn't looking forward WILL be left behind, this includes all the NSL tinpot clubs that some posters are overly concerned about. That is what pro/rel will do if you allow it. It should be a relatively automatic process where the weak are weeded out over the long term, where clubs who rely just on their ethnic base will be weeded out, it will force clubs to adapt and to adapt quickly. It will be absolutely brutal in its application, which is the whole point of this exercise. It would re-energize the league and every year refresh the league. It is something to look forward to and not be concerned about because at the end of the day it will result in the best teams being in the A-league and that's what you want. 



 

True.

Independent or not the finals will remain in the A-League. So for me 14 or 16 in the 1st division is best. A 2nd division imo can be anything from 12-24 teams and doesnt need to mirror the 1st division. 
I am happy for it to be a "closed" 2 tier system. How long would it take to get 40 professional teams anyway?
As long as there is a mechanism for teams to come up and go down from division 2 to NPL if they want. Not relegation. 

Perhaps eventually you would have enough teams for a 3rd division but that is long long long down the track. 

The tv deal is a fluid thing also and if this is a success there may be even greater investment and revenue. Eventually FFAs should not receive a cut from it. 
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Roberts1 - 31 Oct 2017 6:19 PM
‘At the end of the day it isn’t important which team is in which tier’It is important - it’s all about KPIs, driving up TV viewing numbers, attendances. These come from having teams in the more populated areas. In the main this has been achieved.We can’t lose any of the existing teams due to relegation. We have wonderful Sydney and Melbourne derbies and the major cities have teams.P&R could see major contributors disappear and the income streams reduce

Sorry but I don't agree. I am talking about the long term. Over time the clubs who have the most money, largest fan bases, most opportunities for sponsorship, largest population centres will be the teams in the A-league. This will mean that most of the teams in the A-league will eventually be from the big cities who also happen to reside on the eastern seaboard. It doesn't necessarily mean every other place is shut out, it just means if you dont have all those advantages. It means what you do have you just have to do better than everyone else, which is exactly what pro/rel is supposed to do. 







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scott21 - 31 Oct 2017 6:25 PM
RBBAnonymous - 31 Oct 2017 5:53 PM

True.

Independent or not the finals will remain in the A-League. So for me 14 or 16 in the 1st division is best. A 2nd division imo can be anything from 12-24 teams and doesnt need to mirror the 1st division. 
I am happy for it to be a "closed" 2 tier system. How long would it take to get 40 professional teams anyway?
As long as there is a mechanism for teams to come up and go down from division 2 to NPL if they want. Not relegation. 

Perhaps eventually you would have enough teams for a 3rd division but that is long long long down the track. 

The tv deal is a fluid thing also and if this is a success there may be even greater investment and revenue. Eventually FFAs should not receive a cut from it. 

I think we still need to provide an avenue for relegation from a 2nd tier and allow clubs who are semi-pro to try and make that transition up. For most clubs that would be the hardest transition to make. You would need to make sure that clubs who are coming up adhere to all the criteria necessary. There needs to be aspiration at all levels. That's why I said in my post why its important to have the right mechanisms in place. 







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Davide82 - 31 Oct 2017 2:48 PM
Billy the Fish - 31 Oct 2017 2:41 PM

Yeah.
If only that were true we would have thousands on this forum as opposed to in the stands
Might even mean new blood on here instead of dried up dull old blood under a new name every few months

Must be Halloween. 

I rebuke your curse
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FFA postpones EGM as chief David Gallop offers timetable for talks on second-tier league

17 reading now

Embattled FFA  chairman Steven Lowy and his board have postponed the FFA's scheduled Emergency General Meeting in a bid to buy more time to shore up a peace deal which will placate the warring factions in Australian soccer and stave off FIFA intervention into the game's governance.

The FFA leadership had hoped to secure sufficient votes at the EGM, set for Wednesday,  to push through their proposals for a revised Congress.

But dissenters - the A-League clubs and the players union, the PFA - have argued the Lowy-led board's plans were insufficiently representative of the interests of the game and have been implacably opposed to their implementation. 

The rejection by Football Federation Victoria of Lowy's plea for support after he travelled from Sydney to lobby them on Monday night meant that the FFA board was unlikely to get the 75 per cent majority required at the EGM to push on with their program.

​Now they will look to find an acceptable formula to end the increasingly bitter conflict within the next four weeks.

"Following requests received from Members of Football Federation Australia's Congress, the FFA Board has agreed to postpone the Extraordinary General Meeting scheduled for 1 November, to enable further consultation between all stakeholders – the Member Federations, Hyundai A-League clubs, Professional Footballers Australia and FFA," the body said in a statement on Tuesday evening.

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"The EGM will be rescheduled for 27 November ....the Board is sending formal notification of the postponement to the Members, FIFA and AFC."

Meanwhile, just days after appearing lukewarm about proposals to establish a national second tier in Australia, FFA chief David Gallop has offered leaders of the Association of Australian Football Clubs a timetable to discuss their proposals.

Gallop is prepared to enter talks sooner rather than later over an initiative which, if implemented, could change the game here and have wide-ranging impacts on player development, club finances, mainstream media coverage and broadcast rights.

"We responded to their media release on Friday, and they have now written to us. We have responded to that by telling them we are happy to meet, and we would be happy to do so within the next month or as soon as is convenient for all parties," Gallop said on Monday.

He was at pains to point out that the latest response to the AAFC was not a "U-turn" or backflip, stressing that the initial statement put out last Friday had indicated interest in the idea of a second tier, but spelled out that A-League expansion and fiscal responsibility was his first priority.

He has told the organisation that a second-tier competition is "a wonderful objective for the game and its stakeholders. It has been the subject of significant work within our office and will form an important part of our discussions on a new operating model for the A-League."

"We are keen to commence a dialogue but it will inevitably require each of us to listen and challenge each other's ideas. As a next step this would include your financial modelling and other supporting documentation," Gallop told the organisation in a letter.

Gallop is, however, concerned that a second tier could be a drain on the finances of A-League clubs, increasing their average losing margin of $1 million-$1.5 million a season to $2 million.

"For A-League clubs it is possible that it could mean a dilution of their current funding grants from FFA increasing the reliance on their owners' investment due to the increase in their annual losses."
FFA postpones EGM as chief David Gallop offers timetable for talks on second-tier league


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RBBAnonymous - 31 Oct 2017 5:53 PM
Over the long term in the A-league we might expect 2-3 ex NSL clubs to be challenging or should I say struggling to stay in the A-league. 


 

Ex NSL teams like Brisbane Hollandia who cant pay players or find a shirt front sponsor and are currently for sale. Or perhaps you are talking about the New Zealand Knights who also went broke. 








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"We are keen to commence a dialogue but it will inevitably require each of us to listen and challenge each other's ideas. As a next step this would include your financial modelling and other supporting documentation," Gallop told the organisation in a letter.

Gallop is, however, concerned that a second tier could be a drain on the finances of A-League clubs, increasing their average losing margin of $1 million-$1.5 million a season to $2 million.

"For A-League clubs it is possible that it could mean a dilution of their current funding grants from FFA increasing the reliance on their owners' investment due to the increase in their annual losses."

LOL fearmongering. 

Why would the money be taken for ALeague clubs Dave? Maybe less consulting and business trips to Zurich woud help cover the costs. Im sure there is a lot of fat that could be trimmed. 

Isnt it funny how we havent heard anything about the audit of the FFAs books?


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RBBAnonymous - 31 Oct 2017 6:38 PM
scott21 - 31 Oct 2017 6:25 PM

I think we still need to provide an avenue for relegation from a 2nd tier and allow clubs who are semi-pro to try and make that transition up. For most clubs that would be the hardest transition to make. You would need to make sure that clubs who are coming up adhere to all the criteria necessary. There needs to be aspiration at all levels. That's why I said in my post why its important to have the right mechanisms in place. 

Yeah there are a lot of things to work out. 
Also the aspect of investors buying clubs, new franchises and how many clubs are allowed to play out of one stadium. An example is AFC says in a league they have a 2 club per stadium limited for AFC comp entry. Also loan rules from AL to Champ

All clubs could/should have ambition but all wont. Many clubs will be happy where they are. Its hard to see in the near future there would be 20 professional clubs in Sydney, although Im sure the ambition is there. 





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A-LEAGUE IS RUINING DEVELOPMENT: WHY MILICEVIC BELIEVES SECOND DIVISION IS A MUST

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Promotion and relegation is a must for the A-League, according to the ex-Australian centre-half

Former Socceroo defender Ljubo Milicevic knows Australian football better than most and that is why he is determined to see the introduction of a second division in the country.

Talk of a second-tier competition has dominated discussions since the Association of Australian Football Clubs (AAFC) – a lobby group representing National Premier League clubs from state federations and the ACT – unveiled plans for a national division to be aligned with the A-League by 2019.

In the blueprint published last week, the league, named 'The Championship', would consist of between 12 and 16 clubs from the existing state league setup, with the target of introducing promotion and relegation in five years.

Football Federation Australia (FFA) have been quick to dismiss the idea but eight-time international Milicevic – who enjoyed European stints with Hajduk Split, FC Thun, Zurich as well as Melbourne Victory and Newcastle Jets in the 10-team A-League having also played for the likes of Melbourne Knights, South Melbourne and Dandenong City at state level – is adamant it is time to provide more opportunities for emerging talent.

Speaking to Goal, Milicevic said: "Seeing it from the outside-in, I definitely believe there can be a second division and there needs to be.

"There are players at the moment not getting the opportunity because there's not enough clubs. Basically, the way the A-League currently works, every team has their maximum quota of foreigners and they're generally all in the first XI. Because if they've recruited well, that's where they should be. You don't recruit foreigners to sit on the bench. That restricts places for young Aussies coming through.

"What happens and it happens all over the world in every league, those players are generally in key positions. Whether it's your centre midfielder, number 10, number nine and centre-back, there's less opportunities for players who we really need to drive our game forward. A second division would give those kids coming through exposure and also extend the careers of some of other guys that still have a lot to offer.

"There shouldn't be this ageism that sometimes exists in other sports in Australia. Footballers can comfortably play until the age of 40 if they're physically, emotionally, spiritually able to. It has many benefits. It would also keep more of our top-line ex-pros in the game. A lot of them are leaving the game also. If they haven't been clever enough to play the game as some others have, they are no longer involved. We are losing a lot of knowledge and our major asset. We have a lot of players who spent 10-20 years in Europe. Where are they all now? If I look through all the teams in the A-League, there's a bare minimum involved and quite often, they are not actually the ones who played at the very top. It's more the ones who were focused on getting a gig at a club.

"We aren't just losing the quality from a point of view where players aren't getting an opportunity at a young age. We're also losing the quality because there aren't chances for our ex-players to stay involved. As soon as you go to a two-tier professional set-up, of course it is going to be beneficial to our game in general."

If the AAFC gets its way, promotion and relegation from the A-League will be implemented by the 2024-25 season, and Milicevic added: "It's important to have relegation. You actually see who has the quality to deal with those moments and who doesn't. If you're always just playing for basically participation, without naming names there's a few teams in the A-League in the last five years who have only been receiving participation awards, you get rid of that. When you get rid of that, you have players who generally strive to be better coming through. When you have two divisions, you have enough room for them all and more exposure.

"It also makes you always play under that pressure you need to be the best. Whether you're playing for the title or trying to avoid relegation, you are no longer taking it easy in games as a coach, player or administrator. It works in Europe so why not here? Obviously, you need to put structures in place to make it work. Sooner rather than later, it needs to be done. Because from all angles, 10 teams isn't enough."

The AAFC also plans to apply to the AFC for an Asian Champions League berth to be awarded to the winner of the proposed Championship.

"I guess they're using it as a carrot. But the problem is with that, they're probably not up to it," the 36-year-old said. "Then again, they could go through the east Asian path. You don't play all the Singapore teams straight away. They only get in if they win the East Asian Cup. So they could use that route.

"But to get direct qualification, that might mean taking a place away from an A-League team and they don't deserve it."

Article continues below

Could we see Milicevic running around in The Championship in two years' time? The experienced defender will return to Newcastle in 2018 after leaving junior club Dandenong for NSW NPL outfit Charlestown City.

"As far as me playing in those leagues anymore, it's kind of the furthest thing from my mind. I'm happy to still play and share the joy of playing whatever club I'm involved with. It's an absolute pleasure to sign for Charlestown. I get to reconnect with a community I genuinely loved and loved to be a part of. I'll continue to contribute in my own way.

"As far as hoping for any kind of league to appear as though I can be involved in a more professional way is not a concern for me. If it was, I'd already be doing all my coaching badges and licking a** like the rest of them to get a gig but I don't do that."
A-League is ruining development: Why Ljubo Milicevic believes Australian second division is a must | Goal.com


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aussieshorter - 31 Oct 2017 6:21 PM
Benjamin - 31 Oct 2017 5:39 PM

There's nothing to stop them, I just don't like it.

Same argument could be made for an A-League club entering a second team in the Championship.  I'd just rather see a completely new club have a chance at the NPL level instead of another club's second team.  Not a deal breaker, just my preference.

Would only have to set a rule that clubs with sides above the State NPLs, their youth/seconds side can't get promoted past the state NPLs. 

With a club like the proposed South West Sydney side, if SD Raiders and Macarthur Rams have signed up to be feeder clubs/associations then I think it is fair that that puts them as SWS youth/seconds side and limits them to State NPLs. 

They do the similar in Japan with J-League second/youth side limited together J3 or the JFL(4th Tier). 
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bigpoppa - 31 Oct 2017 7:17 PM
aussieshorter - 31 Oct 2017 6:21 PM

Would only have to set a rule that clubs with sides above the State NPLs, their youth/seconds side can't get promoted past the state NPLs. 

With a club like the proposed South West Sydney side, if SD Raiders and Macarthur Rams have signed up to be feeder clubs/associations then I think it is fair that that puts them as SWS youth/seconds side and limits them to State NPLs. 

They do the similar in Japan with J-League second/youth side limited together J3 or the JFL(4th Tier). 

Sure, but make it a designated youth team like the A-League does now.  It shouldn't be open to having a second string side.

Again, it's not a huge issue.  It's just something I'm not a fan of.

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aussieshorter - 31 Oct 2017 7:29 PM
bigpoppa - 31 Oct 2017 7:17 PM

Sure, but make it a designated youth team like the A-League does now.  It shouldn't be open to having a second string side.

Again, it's not a huge issue.  It's just something I'm not a fan of.

Lots of clubs already have teams in multiple divisions. Not many (if any) big clubs out there that are only going to have one senior team. 
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scott21 - 31 Oct 2017 6:54 PM


He was at pains to point out that the latest response to the AAFC was not a "U-turn" or backflip, stressing that the initial statement put out last Friday had indicated interest in the idea of a second tier, but spelled out that A-League expansion and fiscal responsibility was his first priority.


Bull.

Shit.

They couldn't shit on the idea quick enough. 1 hour is what it took, which proves they didn't even read the damned thing.
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bohemia - 31 Oct 2017 7:47 PM
scott21 - 31 Oct 2017 6:54 PM

Bull.

Shit.

They couldn't shit on the idea quick enough. 1 hour is what it took, which proves they didn't even read the damned thing.

You looking for extra work?
https://se.indeed.com/visajobb?jk=7ca13ea4dc43df9c&q=a&l=Uppsala&tk=1btoo78k20nkn1d5&from=ifa&utm_source=publisher&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=ifa_catch_all&pub=20e2a40587d9b981b86e6ac7b33a72cd0cace3277f6b99df
Im job hunting
bohemia
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scott21 - 31 Oct 2017 7:53 PM
bohemia - 31 Oct 2017 7:47 PM

You looking for extra work?
https://se.indeed.com/visajobb?jk=7ca13ea4dc43df9c&q=a&l=Uppsala&tk=1btoo78k20nkn1d5&from=ifa&utm_source=publisher&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=ifa_catch_all&pub=20e2a40587d9b981b86e6ac7b33a72cd0cace3277f6b99df
Im job hunting

Would love it but still in a shitfight over residency/citizenship/permits lol
crimsoncrusoe
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I wonder if the AAFC and FFV will fall for Gallops ploy of Proposing A Timeline For Talks.
This amounts to SFA .What you need from Gallop is a guarantee of a starting date for a second division.Anything less and nothing will ever happen.

What a transparent delay tactic.Fool me once .
aussieshorter
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The Fans - 31 Oct 2017 7:42 PM
aussieshorter - 31 Oct 2017 7:29 PM

Lots of clubs already have teams in multiple divisions. Not many (if any) big clubs out there that are only going to have one senior team. 

Most of those second teams aren't in the same linked pyramid though, unless they are small regional leagues where the number of clubs is too low.

I can't think of any NPL club in the country that has a second team in same league structure.

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TheSelectFew
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aussieshorter - 31 Oct 2017 8:58 PM
The Fans - 31 Oct 2017 7:42 PM

Most of those second teams aren't in the same linked pyramid though, unless they are small regional leagues where the number of clubs is too low.

I can't think of any NPL club in the country that has a second team in same league structure.

I can think of heaps. They don't go by the same name though. 

For example Sunshine Cross has Westside Strikers. Same club different ground. 


aussieshorter
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TheSelectFew - 31 Oct 2017 9:14 PM
aussieshorter - 31 Oct 2017 8:58 PM

I can think of heaps. They don't go by the same name though. 

For example Sunshine Cross has Westside Strikers. Same club different ground. 

Up until 2018 (as far as I can tell) Westside Strikers haven't played in the same league structure as Sunshine George Cross, which is my point.

If they are entering the State League in 2018 they have probably shown that they are independent enough from Georgies to enter under their own name.

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Gyfox
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aussieshorter - 31 Oct 2017 10:03 PM
TheSelectFew - 31 Oct 2017 9:14 PM

Up until 2018 (as far as I can tell) Westside Strikers haven't played in the same league structure as Sunshine George Cross, which is my point.

If they are entering the State League in 2018 they have probably shown that they are independent enough from Georgies to enter under their own name.

How many tiers do they have in the State leagues?  FNSW has 1 below NPL3.
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Gyfox - 31 Oct 2017 10:13 PM
aussieshorter - 31 Oct 2017 10:03 PM

How many tiers do they have in the State leagues?  FNSW has 1 below NPL3.

VIC has 5, and each of those tiers are split into conferences.  All connected via pro/rel.

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Rabieh was just on Bill and Boz. Pretty much repeating what he has said in the other interviews he has had.

One thing though, the woman(cricket person I think) asked him if this proposed model works is it something he can see being taken and working overseas. 

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