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TimmyJ
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As others have said professional should be the aim but baby steps.
Honestly start with a conferenced joint in NSW/VIC pl. add brissy Canberra Geelong etc as a team steps up. Remove the conferences add pro rel to the npls etc.
it’s easy to alter once it’s started. And anything is better than nothing.
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Monoethnic Social Club
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+x+x+xLucy Zelic interviews Beau Busch from the PFA and asks him about the 2nd division. Beau says there are still many threshold issues to work through before it can become a reality. He gives the firm view that it must be fully professional. That demand is likely to push the start date beyond 2022. Can the PFA please step aside and let clubs in the second tier work on a viable model. That model is unlikely to come anywhere close to fully pro, so unless we want to wait another decade before having an opportunity to get things moving, the PFA must try and understand the realities that we face ourselves in. There simply isn’t the money around for anything too grand, so let’s just get things moving, not put unrealistic barriers up. What would be the minimum attendance threshold for a club to be financially sustainable while paying fully professional wages (which would be at least $1.5m for the squad)? 5000 per game? I can't think there are too many clubs able to draw that much in a second tier. Maybe South Melbourne, Wollongong Wolves, and broadbased clubs in Canberra and Auckland (although the latter would come with a lot of extra travel costs). 1000-3000 per game seems much more likely for the division as a whole. Semi-pro seems the most viable path forward, at least in the short to medium-term. I think some of the clubs that are pushing for NSD may actually surprise you. I agree though 1-3K for most seems like a realistic average. But consider that most of them have significantly lower ground hire costs than the franchises (I know the South bid team were pretty adamant that we could cover ground hire and matchday/travel expenses with at least 1400 through the doors at home, which is pretty close to what we are getting at the moment in NPL) and also take in more of a percentage from food/drink and other revenue streams and I think most could at least partially make the jump to professionalism. Maybe a mix of full time players and cadets/youth on lower wages???
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someguyjc
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+xLucy Zelic interviews Beau Busch from the PFA and asks him about the 2nd division. Beau says there are still many threshold issues to work through before it can become a reality. He gives the firm view that it must be fully professional. That demand is likely to push the start date beyond 2022. Of course PFA want it to be fully professional, a semi pro league wont increase their membership and power will it? An entirely correct statement.
But ....
Are the PFA wrong in that stance, would a semi-professional league add real value or just be a more expensive NPL? Most of the players would come from the state NPL's so it will obviously be an "expensive" NPL to begin with, but we have to start somewhere, waiting for everything to be sorted out for the "perfect" NSD will mean it will never occur. The biggest thing holding football back in this country is the closed system, if the NSD has an open pyramid from the start (with no salary cap but with a FFP system) you will find clubs investing and may clubs becoming pro in no time. As I said, I agreed with your statement.
But there is a huge difference between professional players/coaches training twice a day five times a week and semi-pro training 3 nights a week but often missing one night because of work or it rained and fields are closed.
I am still not sure what the delay is in setting this up; the AAFC started with a real fan fare but lately say virtually nothing about what is going on. But they do seem to hold lots of meetings.
It’s becoming as frustrating as hell.
And with QLD introducing a full pro/rel pyramid from next season (The last major State to do so) if the NSD has pro/rel then it’s only a matter of time before the AL opens up I reckon it has a lot to do with the AL independence not being finalised. The FFA wouldn't have the resources to allocate to both the AL and Div 2 at the same time so they would need the AL to be independent first. That's my hunch anyway.
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Waz
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 19K,
Visits: 0
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+x+x+x+xLucy Zelic interviews Beau Busch from the PFA and asks him about the 2nd division. Beau says there are still many threshold issues to work through before it can become a reality. He gives the firm view that it must be fully professional. That demand is likely to push the start date beyond 2022. Of course PFA want it to be fully professional, a semi pro league wont increase their membership and power will it? An entirely correct statement.
But ....
Are the PFA wrong in that stance, would a semi-professional league add real value or just be a more expensive NPL? Most of the players would come from the state NPL's so it will obviously be an "expensive" NPL to begin with, but we have to start somewhere, waiting for everything to be sorted out for the "perfect" NSD will mean it will never occur. The biggest thing holding football back in this country is the closed system, if the NSD has an open pyramid from the start (with no salary cap but with a FFP system) you will find clubs investing and may clubs becoming pro in no time. As I said, I agreed with your statement.
But there is a huge difference between professional players/coaches training twice a day five times a week and semi-pro training 3 nights a week but often missing one night because of work or it rained and fields are closed.
I am still not sure what the delay is in setting this up; the AAFC started with a real fan fare but lately say virtually nothing about what is going on. But they do seem to hold lots of meetings.
It’s becoming as frustrating as hell.
And with QLD introducing a full pro/rel pyramid from next season (The last major State to do so) if the NSD has pro/rel then it’s only a matter of time before the AL opens up
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AJF
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 2.7K,
Visits: 2
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+x+x+xLucy Zelic interviews Beau Busch from the PFA and asks him about the 2nd division. Beau says there are still many threshold issues to work through before it can become a reality. He gives the firm view that it must be fully professional. That demand is likely to push the start date beyond 2022. Of course PFA want it to be fully professional, a semi pro league wont increase their membership and power will it? An entirely correct statement.
But ....
Are the PFA wrong in that stance, would a semi-professional league add real value or just be a more expensive NPL? Most of the players would come from the state NPL's so it will obviously be an "expensive" NPL to begin with, but we have to start somewhere, waiting for everything to be sorted out for the "perfect" NSD will mean it will never occur. The biggest thing holding football back in this country is the closed system, if the NSD has an open pyramid from the start (with no salary cap but with a FFP system) you will find clubs investing and may clubs becoming pro in no time.
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Waz
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 19K,
Visits: 0
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+x+x+x+xLucy Zelic interviews Beau Busch from the PFA and asks him about the 2nd division. Beau says there are still many threshold issues to work through before it can become a reality. He gives the firm view that it must be fully professional. That demand is likely to push the start date beyond 2022. Of course PFA want it to be fully professional, a semi pro league wont increase their membership and power will it? An entirely correct statement.
But ....
Are the PFA wrong in that stance, would a semi-professional league add real value or just be a more expensive NPL? Have to start somewhere. I think our second tier, at least in the early stages, should be similar to the Portuguese third tier where some clubs are professional and some are semi professional. Eventually more clubs will become professional but they need time. I can live with that.
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theFOOTBALLlover
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.4K,
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+x+x+xLucy Zelic interviews Beau Busch from the PFA and asks him about the 2nd division. Beau says there are still many threshold issues to work through before it can become a reality. He gives the firm view that it must be fully professional. That demand is likely to push the start date beyond 2022. Of course PFA want it to be fully professional, a semi pro league wont increase their membership and power will it? An entirely correct statement.
But ....
Are the PFA wrong in that stance, would a semi-professional league add real value or just be a more expensive NPL? Have to start somewhere. I think our second tier, at least in the early stages, should be similar to the Portuguese third tier where some clubs are professional and some are semi professional. Eventually more clubs will become professional but they need time.
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Waz
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 19K,
Visits: 0
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+x+xLucy Zelic interviews Beau Busch from the PFA and asks him about the 2nd division. Beau says there are still many threshold issues to work through before it can become a reality. He gives the firm view that it must be fully professional. That demand is likely to push the start date beyond 2022. Of course PFA want it to be fully professional, a semi pro league wont increase their membership and power will it? An entirely correct statement.
But ....
Are the PFA wrong in that stance, would a semi-professional league add real value or just be a more expensive NPL?
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AJF
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 2.7K,
Visits: 2
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+xLucy Zelic interviews Beau Busch from the PFA and asks him about the 2nd division. Beau says there are still many threshold issues to work through before it can become a reality. He gives the firm view that it must be fully professional. That demand is likely to push the start date beyond 2022. Of course PFA want it to be fully professional, a semi pro league wont increase their membership and power will it?
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scott20won
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Group: Forum Members
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Throwback Wednesday
“AAFC had proposed a $2.5 million budget for each club and claimed it could get The Championship up and running without any additional funding from FFA. But the PFA's own modelling suggested clubs would need more than double that amount in a fully-professional second division, plus league operating costs of $10-$12 million.”
https://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/ffa-to-hold-second-division-talks
🤠🤠🤠
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df1982
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 861,
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+x+xLucy Zelic interviews Beau Busch from the PFA and asks him about the 2nd division. Beau says there are still many threshold issues to work through before it can become a reality. He gives the firm view that it must be fully professional. That demand is likely to push the start date beyond 2022. Can the PFA please step aside and let clubs in the second tier work on a viable model. That model is unlikely to come anywhere close to fully pro, so unless we want to wait another decade before having an opportunity to get things moving, the PFA must try and understand the realities that we face ourselves in. There simply isn’t the money around for anything too grand, so let’s just get things moving, not put unrealistic barriers up. What would be the minimum attendance threshold for a club to be financially sustainable while paying fully professional wages (which would be at least $1.5m for the squad)? 5000 per game? I can't think there are too many clubs able to draw that much in a second tier. Maybe South Melbourne, Wollongong Wolves, and broadbased clubs in Canberra and Auckland (although the latter would come with a lot of extra travel costs). 1000-3000 per game seems much more likely for the division as a whole. Semi-pro seems the most viable path forward, at least in the short to medium-term.
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Heart_fan
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 8K,
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+xLucy Zelic interviews Beau Busch from the PFA and asks him about the 2nd division. Beau says there are still many threshold issues to work through before it can become a reality. He gives the firm view that it must be fully professional. That demand is likely to push the start date beyond 2022. Can the PFA please step aside and let clubs in the second tier work on a viable model. That model is unlikely to come anywhere close to fully pro, so unless we want to wait another decade before having an opportunity to get things moving, the PFA must try and understand the realities that we face ourselves in. There simply isn’t the money around for anything too grand, so let’s just get things moving, not put unrealistic barriers up.
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bettega
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Lucy Zelic interviews Beau Busch from the PFA and asks him about the 2nd division.
Beau says there are still many threshold issues to work through before it can become a reality.
He gives the firm view that it must be fully professional.
That demand is likely to push the start date beyond 2022.
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Monoethnic Social Club
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+x+xWhere is FFA' s PLAN for a 2nd Division ?! The only "plan " i see is to to reduce the salery cap. Can you beleive it?! Do the Suits i n charge understand football ?? no, they are clueless I think they are busy working on new shared marketing campaign with the A-league and W-league and don't have the resources to look at anything else. They must be really trying hard to pass off the A-league as the blueprint competition for the new European Premier League and I am predicting the new add campaign will be along the lines of. "just like the rich Euro clubs you all by merch from online, only Aussie as mate"
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Davstar
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+xWhere is FFA' s PLAN for a 2nd Division ?! The only "plan " i see is to to reduce the salery cap. Can you beleive it?! Do the Suits i n charge understand football ?? no, they are clueless
these Kangaroos can play football -
Ange P. (Intercontinental WC Play-offs 2017)
KEEP POLITICS OUT OF FOOTBALL
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df1982
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd WHAT is isthe FFA doing about asecond divisoin ?! Oh now i remembrr, N O T H I N G becoz they say its " not our job" !! It's not only the FFA thats holding it back mate... Do you think some dodgy pricks who made their money in God knows what shady ways are ever going to allow a system that would jeopardise their vanity networking projects. A ponzi scheme only continues to work whilst their is ample supply of suckers wanting to buy in to the dream. Why have a pro/rel system when you can sell ,licenses, profits to be shared by the "Football but not as you know it" crowd. Funny, I don't remember South Melbourne clamouring for automatic promotion/relegation when they were in the NSL (which was a closed shop for its entire existence except for a few years in the 1980s). Yeah I dont recall us clamouring fior relegation eitherr althoigh Im pretty sure the club was always voting for increasing teams and promotion from state leagues. But what is your point? Two wrongs make a right? What's the point of dredging up the failures of the past when the new improved plastic fantastic system you have now doesn't work either? A famous woodworking teacher once said "don't point out the sty in my eye when you have a f@cken pole coming out of yours" I want an NSD with pro-rel to the A-League and eventually a complete football pyramid (as long as it can be implemented without sending clubs bust) Just addressing this point in isolation, I would suggest that an open pyramid is a better solution for club sustainability than the closed league franchise model, as clubs can simply drop down to a level they can afford to continue operating at and rebuild, as opposed to just getting shut down like Fury, Gold Coast and NZ Knights. Yes, there were successor clubs founded later on in the NPL, but surely a continued existence within the same pyramid would have been a better result for everyone involved. I agree with this 100%. Clubs dropping down a division and re-calibrating financially is infinitely preferable to them just disappearing because they can't keep up. The Mariners are in this boat at the moment. They would probably benefit from a spell in an NSD to rebuild, make a push for promotion and treat their fans to some winning football for a bit. I haven't checked the numbers for flights, accommodation, and local transport, but honestly I think people grossly overestimate the cost of travel when they talk about barriers to an NSD, especially when at least 80% of the teams would and should be based in the southeastern corner of the continent on both economic grounds and on organic sporting merit. I think salaries would be the biggest cost, but hopefully for an NSD that's something the PFA would be happier to come to the table on, and we already know that these discussions are already happening between them and the AAFC. Obviously it would be dependent on a lot of factors (length of season, location of clubs, etc.), but my back of the envelope estimates for barebones travel (for interstate matches: match day squad plus coaching staff only, arrive night before, one night in a very cheap hotel, leave again right after the match) at pre-Covid prices came to around $250k per club per season for a national second division, or $150k if it was divided into north/south conferences. If we look at the FFA Annual Report, they list the combined travel expenses for the A-League, W-League and Y-League at $3.8M in 2019. Not sure if that includes the FFA cup, but it's very possible that it does. They don't give a complete breakdown of each league, but we can assume it's in that 100-200k range per club per year. Not a big expense at all in the scheme of things, especially considering that includes international travel to and from NZ. Clever fixture scheduling can be used to reduce travel expenses alot. Example: playing two away games in the same state over consecutive rounds. That sounds about right. I should clarify that the figures I was giving was for a longer season (30+ games) which I think the game as a whole needs to move to, and there were some nods to this with respect to the NPL at least in the XI Principles report. I think the hotel costs for a week would probably outweigh the return flight (not to mention the social toll of players being away from families, and jobs if they are semi-pro). The only situation it would work would probably be if there is an NZ-Perth match-up.
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Monoethnic Social Club
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 11K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x[quote]And WHAT is isthe FFA doing about asecond divisoin ?! Oh now i remembrr, N O T H I N G becoz they say its " not our job" !! It's not only the FFA thats holding it back mate... Do you think some dodgy pricks who made their money in God knows what shady ways are ever going to allow a system that would jeopardise their vanity networking projects. A ponzi scheme only continues to work whilst their is ample supply of suckers wanting to buy in to the dream. Why have a pro/rel system when you can sell ,licenses, profits to be shared by the "Football but not as you know it" crowd. Funny, I don't remember South Melbourne clamouring for automatic promotion/relegation when they were in the NSL (which was a closed shop for its entire existence except for a few years in the 1980s). Yeah I dont recall us clamouring fior relegation eitherr althoigh Im pretty sure the club was always voting for increasing teams and promotion from state leagues. But what is your point? Two wrongs make a right? What's the point of dredging up the failures of the past when the new improved plastic fantastic system you have now doesn't work either? A famous woodworking teacher once said "don't point out the sty in my eye when you have a f@cken pole coming out of yours" I want an NSD with pro-rel to the A-League and eventually a complete football pyramid (as long as it can be implemented without sending clubs bust) Just addressing this point in isolation, I would suggest that an open pyramid is a better solution for club sustainability than the closed league franchise model, as clubs can simply drop down to a level they can afford to continue operating at and rebuild, as opposed to just getting shut down like Fury, Gold Coast and NZ Knights. Yes, there were successor clubs founded later on in the NPL, but surely a continued existence within the same pyramid would have been a better result for everyone involved. I agree with this 100%. Clubs dropping down a division and re-calibrating financially is infinitely preferable to them just disappearing because they can't keep up. The Mariners are in this boat at the moment. They would probably benefit from a spell in an NSD to rebuild, make a push for promotion and treat their fans to some winning football for a bit. It breaks my heart to think CCM and Newy Jets will be the next to be wiped out of existence thanks to our broken system after all their dedicated and loving fans have gone through. I can't even imagine how it must feel to be a Mariners fan in the closed league system knowing honestly despite Gallop's platitudes that you're going to watch your team finish last or maybe second last every season again and again and again like Sisyphos pushing his boulder but without the thrill of being able to battle similar sized clubs in a relegation fight, and if relegation does come, the satisfaction of being the big fish in the smaller pond and the thrill of winning promotion again, all for the AFL/NRL delusion of equalization, when there are literally several million actual football fans in this country who are already accustomed to the romance of our own game's structure. Wow Sisyphos mentioned on a soccer forum? Impressive :) No disrespect to you Paladisious as your comments seem well measured but how do you think the fans of "old soccer" clubs feel? At least Mariners and Newcastle fans can still have the hope that next season they will be Champions, we aren't even allowed to compete?
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bettega
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Group: Forum Members
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If a far flung club is having to travel and stay overnight on 10 occasions, that's easily $200k for a whole season.
But if that's the worst case scenario, I guess that's not too bad.
Conceivably, you could have 80% to 90% of the clubs in the Syd to Melb corridor, and they are probably spending a quarter of that.
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someguyjc
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 4.1K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd WHAT is isthe FFA doing about asecond divisoin ?! Oh now i remembrr, N O T H I N G becoz they say its " not our job" !! It's not only the FFA thats holding it back mate... Do you think some dodgy pricks who made their money in God knows what shady ways are ever going to allow a system that would jeopardise their vanity networking projects. A ponzi scheme only continues to work whilst their is ample supply of suckers wanting to buy in to the dream. Why have a pro/rel system when you can sell ,licenses, profits to be shared by the "Football but not as you know it" crowd. Funny, I don't remember South Melbourne clamouring for automatic promotion/relegation when they were in the NSL (which was a closed shop for its entire existence except for a few years in the 1980s). Yeah I dont recall us clamouring fior relegation eitherr althoigh Im pretty sure the club was always voting for increasing teams and promotion from state leagues. But what is your point? Two wrongs make a right? What's the point of dredging up the failures of the past when the new improved plastic fantastic system you have now doesn't work either? A famous woodworking teacher once said "don't point out the sty in my eye when you have a f@cken pole coming out of yours" I want an NSD with pro-rel to the A-League and eventually a complete football pyramid (as long as it can be implemented without sending clubs bust) Just addressing this point in isolation, I would suggest that an open pyramid is a better solution for club sustainability than the closed league franchise model, as clubs can simply drop down to a level they can afford to continue operating at and rebuild, as opposed to just getting shut down like Fury, Gold Coast and NZ Knights. Yes, there were successor clubs founded later on in the NPL, but surely a continued existence within the same pyramid would have been a better result for everyone involved. I agree with this 100%. Clubs dropping down a division and re-calibrating financially is infinitely preferable to them just disappearing because they can't keep up. The Mariners are in this boat at the moment. They would probably benefit from a spell in an NSD to rebuild, make a push for promotion and treat their fans to some winning football for a bit. I haven't checked the numbers for flights, accommodation, and local transport, but honestly I think people grossly overestimate the cost of travel when they talk about barriers to an NSD, especially when at least 80% of the teams would and should be based in the southeastern corner of the continent on both economic grounds and on organic sporting merit. I think salaries would be the biggest cost, but hopefully for an NSD that's something the PFA would be happier to come to the table on, and we already know that these discussions are already happening between them and the AAFC. Obviously it would be dependent on a lot of factors (length of season, location of clubs, etc.), but my back of the envelope estimates for barebones travel (for interstate matches: match day squad plus coaching staff only, arrive night before, one night in a very cheap hotel, leave again right after the match) at pre-Covid prices came to around $250k per club per season for a national second division, or $150k if it was divided into north/south conferences. If we look at the FFA Annual Report, they list the combined travel expenses for the A-League, W-League and Y-League at $3.8M in 2019. Not sure if that includes the FFA cup, but it's very possible that it does. They don't give a complete breakdown of each league, but we can assume it's in that 100-200k range per club per year. Not a big expense at all in the scheme of things, especially considering that includes international travel to and from NZ. Clever fixture scheduling can be used to reduce travel expenses alot. Example: playing two away games in the same state over consecutive rounds.
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df1982
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 861,
Visits: 0
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd WHAT is isthe FFA doing about asecond divisoin ?! Oh now i remembrr, N O T H I N G becoz they say its " not our job" !! It's not only the FFA thats holding it back mate... Do you think some dodgy pricks who made their money in God knows what shady ways are ever going to allow a system that would jeopardise their vanity networking projects. A ponzi scheme only continues to work whilst their is ample supply of suckers wanting to buy in to the dream. Why have a pro/rel system when you can sell ,licenses, profits to be shared by the "Football but not as you know it" crowd. Funny, I don't remember South Melbourne clamouring for automatic promotion/relegation when they were in the NSL (which was a closed shop for its entire existence except for a few years in the 1980s). Yeah I dont recall us clamouring fior relegation eitherr althoigh Im pretty sure the club was always voting for increasing teams and promotion from state leagues. But what is your point? Two wrongs make a right? What's the point of dredging up the failures of the past when the new improved plastic fantastic system you have now doesn't work either? A famous woodworking teacher once said "don't point out the sty in my eye when you have a f@cken pole coming out of yours" I want an NSD with pro-rel to the A-League and eventually a complete football pyramid (as long as it can be implemented without sending clubs bust) Just addressing this point in isolation, I would suggest that an open pyramid is a better solution for club sustainability than the closed league franchise model, as clubs can simply drop down to a level they can afford to continue operating at and rebuild, as opposed to just getting shut down like Fury, Gold Coast and NZ Knights. Yes, there were successor clubs founded later on in the NPL, but surely a continued existence within the same pyramid would have been a better result for everyone involved. I agree with this 100%. Clubs dropping down a division and re-calibrating financially is infinitely preferable to them just disappearing because they can't keep up. The Mariners are in this boat at the moment. They would probably benefit from a spell in an NSD to rebuild, make a push for promotion and treat their fans to some winning football for a bit. I haven't checked the numbers for flights, accommodation, and local transport, but honestly I think people grossly overestimate the cost of travel when they talk about barriers to an NSD, especially when at least 80% of the teams would and should be based in the southeastern corner of the continent on both economic grounds and on organic sporting merit. I think salaries would be the biggest cost, but hopefully for an NSD that's something the PFA would be happier to come to the table on, and we already know that these discussions are already happening between them and the AAFC. Obviously it would be dependent on a lot of factors (length of season, location of clubs, etc.), but my back of the envelope estimates for barebones travel (for interstate matches: match day squad plus coaching staff only, arrive night before, one night in a very cheap hotel, leave again right after the match) at pre-Covid prices came to around $250k per club per season for a national second division, or $150k if it was divided into north/south conferences. That was just for a first team, if you want to have an U/23 side playing at national level too then add an extra 80% or so on top. That was if you have teams from places like Perth and Townsville (which would both probably deserve them on merits). You can bring this down if you concentrate teams in the big south-east cities. So it would be significantly less than player wages even at semi-pro level, but the difference is that wages are an investment in the game (players get remuneration for their efforts, and can see career prospects for themselves), whereas travel is just a sunk cost.
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Waz
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Group: Forum Members
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This is something significant, Football Queensland creating a football pyramid for QLD:
NPL.
QPL.
QPL1. Zone Premier League eg BPL Zone Divisions eg Capital Leagues 1-3.
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paladisious
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Group: Moderators
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd WHAT is isthe FFA doing about asecond divisoin ?! Oh now i remembrr, N O T H I N G becoz they say its " not our job" !! It's not only the FFA thats holding it back mate... Do you think some dodgy pricks who made their money in God knows what shady ways are ever going to allow a system that would jeopardise their vanity networking projects. A ponzi scheme only continues to work whilst their is ample supply of suckers wanting to buy in to the dream. Why have a pro/rel system when you can sell ,licenses, profits to be shared by the "Football but not as you know it" crowd. Funny, I don't remember South Melbourne clamouring for automatic promotion/relegation when they were in the NSL (which was a closed shop for its entire existence except for a few years in the 1980s). Yeah I dont recall us clamouring fior relegation eitherr althoigh Im pretty sure the club was always voting for increasing teams and promotion from state leagues. But what is your point? Two wrongs make a right? What's the point of dredging up the failures of the past when the new improved plastic fantastic system you have now doesn't work either? A famous woodworking teacher once said "don't point out the sty in my eye when you have a f@cken pole coming out of yours" I want an NSD with pro-rel to the A-League and eventually a complete football pyramid (as long as it can be implemented without sending clubs bust) Just addressing this point in isolation, I would suggest that an open pyramid is a better solution for club sustainability than the closed league franchise model, as clubs can simply drop down to a level they can afford to continue operating at and rebuild, as opposed to just getting shut down like Fury, Gold Coast and NZ Knights. Yes, there were successor clubs founded later on in the NPL, but surely a continued existence within the same pyramid would have been a better result for everyone involved. I agree with this 100%. Clubs dropping down a division and re-calibrating financially is infinitely preferable to them just disappearing because they can't keep up. The Mariners are in this boat at the moment. They would probably benefit from a spell in an NSD to rebuild, make a push for promotion and treat their fans to some winning football for a bit. It breaks my heart to think CCM and Newy Jets will be the next to be wiped out of existence thanks to our broken system after all their dedicated and loving fans have gone through. I can't even imagine how it must feel to be a Mariners fan in the closed league system knowing honestly despite Gallop's platitudes that you're going to watch your team finish last or maybe second last every season again and again and again like Sisyphos pushing his boulder but without the thrill of being able to battle similar sized clubs in a relegation fight, and if relegation does come, the satisfaction of being the big fish in the smaller pond and the thrill of winning promotion again, all for the AFL/NRL delusion of equalization, when there are literally several million actual football fans in this country who are already accustomed to the romance of our own game's structure. My concern is more about travel costs. Realistically an NSD would be lucky to get average crowds of 2-3000 per game. Is this enough to sustain the cost of travelling around the country? The alternative would be to focus on SE Australia and not include clubs from Perth, North Queensland, etc. But that is in contrast to the open spirit of the football pyramid.
I haven't checked the numbers for flights, accommodation, and local transport, but honestly I think people grossly overestimate the cost of travel when they talk about barriers to an NSD, especially when at least 80% of the teams would and should be based in the southeastern corner of the continent on both economic grounds and on organic sporting merit. I think salaries would be the biggest cost, but hopefully for an NSD that's something the PFA would be happier to come to the table on, and we already know that these discussions are already happening between them and the AAFC.
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Remote Control
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so WHERE is FFA 's PLAN for second Division? NOT GOOD ENOUGH ! ! Our be Loved game deserves better!
Who will join me in calling for change at the top ?!
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df1982
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd WHAT is isthe FFA doing about asecond divisoin ?! Oh now i remembrr, N O T H I N G becoz they say its " not our job" !! It's not only the FFA thats holding it back mate... Do you think some dodgy pricks who made their money in God knows what shady ways are ever going to allow a system that would jeopardise their vanity networking projects. A ponzi scheme only continues to work whilst their is ample supply of suckers wanting to buy in to the dream. Why have a pro/rel system when you can sell ,licenses, profits to be shared by the "Football but not as you know it" crowd. Funny, I don't remember South Melbourne clamouring for automatic promotion/relegation when they were in the NSL (which was a closed shop for its entire existence except for a few years in the 1980s). Yeah I dont recall us clamouring fior relegation eitherr althoigh Im pretty sure the club was always voting for increasing teams and promotion from state leagues. But what is your point? Two wrongs make a right? What's the point of dredging up the failures of the past when the new improved plastic fantastic system you have now doesn't work either? A famous woodworking teacher once said "don't point out the sty in my eye when you have a f@cken pole coming out of yours" I want an NSD with pro-rel to the A-League and eventually a complete football pyramid (as long as it can be implemented without sending clubs bust) Just addressing this point in isolation, I would suggest that an open pyramid is a better solution for club sustainability than the closed league franchise model, as clubs can simply drop down to a level they can afford to continue operating at and rebuild, as opposed to just getting shut down like Fury, Gold Coast and NZ Knights. Yes, there were successor clubs founded later on in the NPL, but surely a continued existence within the same pyramid would have been a better result for everyone involved. I agree with this 100%. Clubs dropping down a division and re-calibrating financially is infinitely preferable to them just disappearing because they can't keep up. The Mariners are in this boat at the moment. They would probably benefit from a spell in an NSD to rebuild, make a push for promotion and treat their fans to some winning football for a bit. My concern is more about travel costs. Realistically an NSD would be lucky to get average crowds of 2-3000 per game. Is this enough to sustain the cost of travelling around the country? The alternative would be to focus on SE Australia and not include clubs from Perth, North Queensland, etc. But that is in contrast to the open spirit of the football pyramid.
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Footballfirst
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+x+xI would love to see a full pyramid of pro rel but it is not going to happen for a long time in this country. Although not ideal but in the meantime to have some sort of semblance of pro rel as soon as the second division can be set up and is shown to be viable, promote four or six teams from the second division to the A league so we have a 16 or 18 team A league competition and then due to the current A league clubs having an A league licence until 2034 make it so the lowest finishing team out of the newly promoted second division teams is relegated back to the second division, with the winner of the second division being promoted to the A league and keep doing this until we can have the proper promotion and relegation. I know this is not ideal but it is a lot better than what we have now. C'mon man so what if (and yeah I know that this is like a 1000/1 shot) all 6 newly promoted clubs finish above the franchises on the ladder? Does one still get relegated? All the noise about the fact NSL never had pro/rel, that all the clubs where too woggy and something about sustainability etc etc is all a blatant excuse for the unpalatable (for some) real reason why pro/rel to A league will never happen in our lifetimes.. These Franchise holders paid fees to be allocated exclusive regional sales areas in this league and will NOT want to ever leave it. I don't hate the clubs, fans or the people involved there BTW it is what it is and they also have a right to feel as passionately about their club as I do mine, but seriously this franchise thing is pure shite. I agree this Franchise A League is shit but I am Just trying to think outside the box because there should be at least be some form of promotion and relegation into the top tier and the only way I can see it happening any time before 2034 is if the A league falls over, which is a possibility or if some sort of agreement is reached that still guarantees the franchise teams a position in the A LEAGUE until their licence expires in 2034. At least with this option you would have a chance to get your club into the top tier and to stay there by finishing above any one of the other five newly promoted teams and also the top team in the second division would be promoted the following year and if the very long shot re all the newly promoted teams finish above the current franchise teams or even all just perform really well then maybe it might cause a rethink and speed up the implementation of a full pyramid and promotion and relegation. At least my proposal is a step forward, it's better than what you have now or are likely to have in the near future, which is no promotion into the top tier.
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Monoethnic Social Club
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+xI would love to see a full pyramid of pro rel but it is not going to happen for a long time in this country. Although not ideal but in the meantime to have some sort of semblance of pro rel as soon as the second division can be set up and is shown to be viable, promote four or six teams from the second division to the A league so we have a 16 or 18 team A league competition and then due to the current A league clubs having an A league licence until 2034 make it so the lowest finishing team out of the newly promoted second division teams is relegated back to the second division, with the winner of the second division being promoted to the A league and keep doing this until we can have the proper promotion and relegation. I know this is not ideal but it is a lot better than what we have now. C'mon man so what if (and yeah I know that this is like a 1000/1 shot) all 6 newly promoted clubs finish above the franchises on the ladder? Does one still get relegated? All the noise about the fact NSL never had pro/rel, that all the clubs where too woggy and something about sustainability etc etc is all a blatant excuse for the unpalatable (for some) real reason why pro/rel to A league will never happen in our lifetimes.. These Franchise holders paid fees to be allocated exclusive regional sales areas in this league and will NOT want to ever leave it. I don't hate the clubs, fans or the people involved there BTW it is what it is and they also have a right to feel as passionately about their club as I do mine, but seriously this franchise thing is pure shite.
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paladisious
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Group: Moderators
Posts: 39K,
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+x+x+x+x+xAnd WHAT is isthe FFA doing about asecond divisoin ?! Oh now i remembrr, N O T H I N G becoz they say its " not our job" !! It's not only the FFA thats holding it back mate... Do you think some dodgy pricks who made their money in God knows what shady ways are ever going to allow a system that would jeopardise their vanity networking projects. A ponzi scheme only continues to work whilst their is ample supply of suckers wanting to buy in to the dream. Why have a pro/rel system when you can sell ,licenses, profits to be shared by the "Football but not as you know it" crowd. Funny, I don't remember South Melbourne clamouring for automatic promotion/relegation when they were in the NSL (which was a closed shop for its entire existence except for a few years in the 1980s). Yeah I dont recall us clamouring fior relegation eitherr althoigh Im pretty sure the club was always voting for increasing teams and promotion from state leagues. But what is your point? Two wrongs make a right? What's the point of dredging up the failures of the past when the new improved plastic fantastic system you have now doesn't work either? A famous woodworking teacher once said "don't point out the sty in my eye when you have a f@cken pole coming out of yours" I want an NSD with pro-rel to the A-League and eventually a complete football pyramid (as long as it can be implemented without sending clubs bust) Just addressing this point in isolation, I would suggest that an open pyramid is a better solution for club sustainability than the closed league franchise model, as clubs can simply drop down to a level they can afford to continue operating at and rebuild, as opposed to just getting shut down like Fury, Gold Coast and NZ Knights. Yes, there were successor clubs founded later on in the NPL, but surely a continued existence within the same pyramid would have been a better result for everyone involved.
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Footballfirst
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 354,
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I would love to see a full pyramid of pro rel but it is not going to happen for a long time in this country.
Although not ideal but in the meantime to have some sort of semblance of pro rel as soon as the second division can be set up and is shown to be viable, promote four or six teams from the second division to the A league so we have a 16 or 18 team A league competition and then due to the current A league clubs having an A league licence until 2034 make it so the lowest finishing team out of the newly promoted second division teams is relegated back to the second division, with the winner of the second division being promoted to the A league and keep doing this until we can have the proper promotion and relegation.
I know this is not ideal but it is a lot better than what we have now.
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bettega
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A lot of things happening at the moment.
COVID is likely to continue affecting the league.
Most clubs are broke.
Those same clubs are about to take over the running of the league.
After 15 years of big losses, owners are about to put their hands in their pocket to an even greater degree.
Meaning?
No one should be counting on P&R for at least the next decade.
Ain't happening.
No one in any position of authority is actually fighting for it, and whenever it gets mentioned, a long list of other priorities are thrown out there, or reasons are given why no one should be holding their breath.
I don't like it, but that's the way it is.
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theFOOTBALLlover
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+xAnd WHAT is isthe FFA doing about asecond divisoin ?! Oh now i remembrr, N O T H I N G becoz they say its " not our job" !! It's not only the FFA thats holding it back mate... Do you think some dodgy pricks who made their money in God knows what shady ways are ever going to allow a system that would jeopardise their vanity networking projects. A ponzi scheme only continues to work whilst their is ample supply of suckers wanting to buy in to the dream. Why have a pro/rel system when you can sell ,licenses, profits to be shared by the "Football but not as you know it" crowd. Funny, I don't remember South Melbourne clamouring for automatic promotion/relegation when they were in the NSL (which was a closed shop for its entire existence except for a few years in the 1980s). Shouldn't be up to the clubs. Should be up to the governing body to actually form the structure of our football system.
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