Against France i think he would see Jedinak with Milligan there and Mooy ahead, as we know we won't get alot of possession. 

Leckie and Kruse out wide and Juric up front. 

i think ange's voodoo formation was designed to solve the fact that we have no right back. You have to either accept having a weakness there or weaken the rest of the team to follow suit

leckie's defence is so strong that a lot of people a while ago speculated having him as the solution but now he is one of our best attacking options as you say

you could have bailey wright at rb but then you have to have a flat back four. If you play spira/jurman on the left that could work i suppose but if you play behich or gersbach there their natural game is to join the attack and you are back to 3ATB even though the team formation says 4ATB

I started wondering today if arzani can be part of that solution. If (and its speculative) leckie can be a strong RB option which I think he can be we may not actually lose that much in attack if arzani takes his place. I think its worth a try in a friendly

Wow people need to calm down on arzani. He is good but he has played 13 or 14 professional games. He hasn't even scored a heap of goals in that time either, maybe 1 goal? ... he is good but he still has a lot of developing to do,  and he is good in the a league without totally dominating in a game like mooy used to. Juric would still be a better striker than him, kruse better on the left and rogic better in the pocket.

Haha I've been on both sides in this 

First I was saying we need we need goals not creativity so it's not clear Arzani is what we need.
Then I thought about our rb problems and the old idea of fixing that with leckue and thought Arzani could be useful if you did that.

Take ons are a decent predictor that a young player will probably do well. The hype reminds me of when rogic was here beating players left right and center and half the forum were wandering what was so good about him and the other half hyped him up. In Arzani's case he is pretty mobile in defence  as well which is a bonus

But don't forget we are that shit. You might have a point otherwise. But the circumstances are that dire. Our NT is truly awful.

One of the biggest mistakes people make is assuming that throwing players up the field makes for more attack.  it doesnt.

I actually think that Leckie often looks a lot more dangerous attacking from deep. He is okay on the wing as well, but i think he is currently our best option by quite a long way at right back.  as a right midfield or winger, i think there is a few others who are on par and he is actually needed in the right back position at the moment. I think he would perform best as an overlapping right fulback, perhaps in a 442 with he and Kruse taking turns to overlap down the right.  I think that is our best right sided combination at the moment. 

Name a single other winger on par with Leckie in an attacking sense. Sticking him at RB is just a waste and unfair on him when he has to defend half the time. We'll get the most out of him when he gets to counterattack with his pace.

New idea that hasn't been discussed much but could be a solution to our too many CMs not enough wingers problem...Rogic on the wing? Either as an inverted winger or down the left. I think he has the skill set and Im pretty sure he did play as a winger for celtic a few times and scored some decent goals cutting inside.

I'm imagining that Rogic would get less attention on the wing, have more space, and would be better able to utilise his 1v1 take on ability which has almost been suppressed out of his game since moving to celtic.

I think it would also make us a more threatening team on the whole having our best attacking weapon consistently closer to where he needs to be to have a decisive impact.

It would ensure that mooy is given some more freedom as a numbee 10, while we have at least 5 good options to play in the deeper roles (jedi, milligan, luongo, irvine and dougall).

Thoughts?

I reckon the wings will be crucial to transition. To make the most of transition (as I gather BVM intends to do), you want wingers who get out of the blocks very quickly (which Rogic doesn't tend to do) and are just quick in general.

Imo, Rogic is only going to work really well at CAM (and in short bursts). He might work as a second striker, but I'm not so sure.

The team i'd select as it stands would be

                      Ryan
Wright  Wilkinson Sainsbury  Behich
          Jedinak       Irvine
Kruse           Mooy          Leckie
                      Juric

Gone for the most solid back 4, a midfield two of Jedinak and Irvine will see Jedinak sit deep and break up the attacks while Irvine brings the intensity and pressing and is the link to the front 4. While the front 4 themselves are creative, can hold the ball up, press, are quick and can push us up the pitch.

^Nice squad, but leckie plays on the right for his club and kruse on the left.

The biggest issue is right back. Wright has been switching from CB to RB and he is simply not quick enough.
We have several options at Lb with Behich, Gersbach, Meredith, Elder, Zullo etc. we just need one to move to the other side.
Trouble is all of them are heavily left footed.

I'd probably have that starting line-up against France. The only thing I'd add is that if Ruka is training very well, I'd consider him starting against France in order to make the most of the counter-attack (not sure if in place of Kruse or Juric, though). Might increase our chances of scoring?

Against Denmark, I'd strongly consider starting with Arzani on the right-wing as I think that would  put us on the best attack-footing. At the very least, off the bench.

Firstly Dougall has done quite well and I'd give him the shot at right back. Ange played Luongo on the wing in Jordan and it was a disaster. Rogic being out wide could be good if he had someone to link up with and can play a quick one-two to sprint to the centre. Juric would be the man for that. Mooy as LCM was perfect with Behich. They were great on that left side. I hope the side below formats well. Rogic can hang wide and come in as needed but Mooy or Luongo would need to keep an eye on that flank to help him.

Dougall Sainsbury Wilkinson Behich
            Jedinak
      Luongo  Mooy
                               Rogic
Leckie     Juric  


Say we counter, Jedinak passes to Mooy then to Rogic on the left wing. I'd hope Leckie and Juric would already be streaming forward. Mooy and Luongo would need to keep an eye on the flanks if Rogic or Leckie venture too central. An interesting idea.

Great post this one. 100% agree. Emerton was the same, Beckham also. Much better attacking into an open paddock. In today's game Beckham would be a dual 6 or a RWB. Emerton was always much better as a RB or a RWB. Couldnt play through a packed defence 1 v 1 ability wasnt good enough or first touch. Leckie is the same. Against chile i remember him picking up the ball very deep a few times and having lots of room to get up to top gear before then taking guys on by knocking the ball past them. Like Emo a guy that can carry the ball from one end of the field to the other not so much finished product though

Would like to see Golgol, Borello, Williams, Dougall and Meredith in the friendly squads coming up.

Prototype RB Emerton yes. Leckie, no. 

highkick05

So what is Arzani's position ? Australian playmakers either turn into shit forwards or DMs.
He doesn't have a shot, so what will he become ? I can see him becoming another recycled 'burns' 'troisi' ikon' type. 
These guys just run around like headless chooks and have no real idea how to actually consistently impact games.  

I disagree that Nathan Burns is in that mould. He's actually one of the very few senior Aussie players with half-decent 1 vs 1 ability. I reckon Arzani offers a bit more there, though.

What he has, unlike Troisi, is far better technical ability. What he has, unlike the Ikon, is far more pace and agility.

The combination of those things (as well as some other things) make him a handful. He's well and truly a work in progress and his attacking game needs a lot of work. But he's still leaps and bounds ahead of most of the pack, such is the sorry state of affairs.

continuing the discussion on the AA thread

relative comparison is very important.

 Our best two wingers are leckie (who has played 3 seasons in buli and starting to well after several buli 2 seasons) and kruse who dominated for dusseldorf in buli 1 and did very well for leverkusen before injury. He has now started doing very well in buli 2. After them we have golgol, borello, mabil, ruka, petratos nabbout, troisi, burns, vidosic and arzani. Remember we only will select around 4 of them and we have a mix of 1st division, standout 2nd teir and a league players.

Now you say we aren't as good as we'd like to be (using more colourful language). But its important to say "good compared to what?" If you think we are poor compared to an a league side then we should definitely select arzani. If our wing options are poor compared to the bundesliga (which they aren't) then its not clear. If they are poor compared to top buli sides (which we are) then is it clear that arzani helps? He has played a few minutes and has shown himself to be about as good as castro and ninkovic at a young age. Very impressive but puts him somewhere in that above pack but not clear where. When rogic was in the a league and at a similar level we were a much weaker team than now.

So how do you sort out who is the best 4 in the above pack? Well you can look at tactical flexibility and arzani's 1v1s give you something different on the wing but vidosic's defence, troisi's engine and composure, rukas speed, petratos' mehbratu, ruka and vidosics recent goal scoring form also provide something different. 

So then you look at weaknesses. Well maybe arzani creates more in the a league than leckie and kruse do against asian opposition. But its really not the same level of difficulty. We create a lot of shots and these shots are easier shots than what the golden generation fed off (having rewatched a bunch of their games) but the GG could at least force a tough save from these shots. Our problem is finishing and defence. So thats why I would be tempted to prioritize our backups to leckie and kruse in terms of finishing and possibly defence (it would be nice to have a tactical option who can defend better than kruse on his flank)

So its worth asking you that if we are a team that is a mixture of 1st division, former 1st division, 2nd teir and standout a league players is arzani above that level today. I doubt it. Could he really walk into a buli club? Probably not today but might be able to in a couple of years. If he is not at that level then ask yourself to rank those five areas I listed before. I would maintain that creativity is at the top of that list so arzani doesn't balance the team more. Does arzani fix the problems that are at the bottom of your list?

Relative comparison isn't the be all and end all. It's important. But it's also a luxury. I'm sure BVM would love it if the entire squad was playing their football at an equal level (and at a very high level). Unfortunately, he hasn't that luxury. But it's not the end of the world. It's possible to analyse footballers who aren't on a level playing ground. If it weren't possible, there would be no scouting and no mobility between leagues.

BVM has do what a scout does. He needs to look at core characteristics of Arzani's football and then ask himself if it merits closer inspection in camp. Owing to the fact that virtually none of the others have ability to make things happen on their own, it's definitely worth Arzani being in the camp. BVM needs to ask himself if Arzani's skillset will translate to a practicable extent at a higher level. Just like a scout or manager who wants to sign from a lower league.

I'm fairly sure, from having analysed it myself, that it will translate such that he can beat opponents at the World Cup.


But that's not the question is it? It's not a question of, overall, which are the best four in the above pack. It's a question of which are needed most urgently.

You don't need a bunch of attacking footballers who all have the same strengths and weaknesses. Think of it as a golfer with his golfclubs. They all serve different purposes. Arzani goes to Russia because there's still room for the others whom BVM will need and because Arzani brings invaluable ability in areas where the others are weak. The skills you refer to are already covered by incumbents. And, in any case, in very advance positions, it's less important for Arzani to be so good defensively.

We can still take the incumbents, as well as Arzani, Ruka and Mehbratu.

Then we have a fairly rounded attack with different tools for different scenarios.

You chose 5 wingers in a 23 man squad which means weakening another position by not having a specialist backup and having a utility backup

Is winger our weakest position? Thats why relative comparison is important

Even if you go with 5 wingers including him leaves out standout a league players in petratros, nabbout and vidosic who are stronger finishers so far, standout 2nd teir players like mabil and borello.
Is Arzani better than all of them?
If he is not better than all of him as you say you can ask if he provides something very different and if that is the thing we are more lacking than other attributes from similar players.

Here is where questions like "are we good at creating chances relative to our level? Are we good at finishing chances relative to our level? Are we good at holding possession relative to our level? Are we good at stopping chances forming or being executed relative to our level?" Become the key questions. Thats why I asked you to rate those 5 areas. Even if you don't think thats the best questions to ask I'm at least curious as to your ranking

I don't put a lot of weight in grazor's comments as a rule but one thing he says in particular i think is important, being tactical flexibility. From what we know of our new manager he is more than willing to change his formation and more importantly his system to get the result as opposed to Ange who was wholeheartedly believed his system would get the result in the end and as a result we were all chewing our nails towards the end.

What this all means is that there will certainly be opportunities for players outside the previous managers thinking to really may an impact. Personally i think he'll pick 4 fullbacks 2 more defensive and two more attacking. I think because wright is playing there week in week out for his club he will be selected on the right hand side, the more attacking option is up in the air be it Risdon, Geria, Leckie or even as a smokey Irvine had played there numerous times when he was younger.

Centre halves well who knows. Is Bert a manager who likes his central defenders to be able to play or is he more interested in blood and guts style. I honestly think he is going to overlook the A league based central defenders and look for those based overseas which is really unfortunate as i think both wilkinson and williams should be there.

Left fullback it think the only certainty is behich, possibly the more defensive option is the squeaky wheel of meredith

Tactical flexibility in the deeper midfield roles will see Jedinak on the plane. I think milligan may be gone under the new manager.

With the wide areas, Leckie and Ruka offer lightning pace to hurt teams on the counter. Kruse and Arzani imo are the wingers most likely to be able to go past their man. Leckie and Kruse both work hard in defence there is no doubt about that but neither are really a goal threat and neither IMO are overly creative or able to provide a final ball which may open the door for players who do offer the goals in both Burns and Vidosic............ tough choice. I dont include Petratos in this as i see him more as a central player now who really is a goal threat from midfield. Is he anymore of a goal threat than Rogic, Irvine, Luongo or Mooy........ again tough choice.

I'm not a fan of Ruka to be honest, plus i feel Juric while not the most lethal in front of goal is our best striker off the ball by a distance. His hold up play against France will be vital to relieve some pressure and then play in Kruse and Leckie in and his pressing which is surprisingly good. 

What BVM will avoid is typically a player like 'Ruka'. Maclaren, Burns, Perhaps Troisi even.

These players are very weak ball handlers. Burns also, because he can not control a ball well even though so many praise his 1 v 1 abilities. Often he loses control.

Now if you say Arzani can control a ball, well you have a reason to select him. If you say he is very similar to Castro, well you'd have him in the team, because none of the above players once they exhibit all their best attacking qualities can score  goal or provide a pass that eventuates into a goal. 

Speed, a player like Nabbout has blistering pace in behind. Similar, Leckie. A player like this is useful against a team like France say. He can also slot a ball into a net.

Think this conversation is now heading in the direction of 'skills and ability' vs 'what we actually need tactically'. Nonetheless, Arzani is one definitely worth watching

I think the skills and ability part there is much confusion especially in the attacking ranks. We have some decent players like Mabil, Ibini who don't even enter the discussion who would be absolutely deadly in a counter attacking / pressing system. Also energy and impact players. Maybe worth looking at 

I notice Berty also stated, 'we not have the best players, but we can be the best team'

Highly likely we will not be playing any 'attractive' football brand similar to Ange's for which we will not be needing a lot of playmakers in the final 3rd.

Mooy and Rogic will probably be sufficient. Berty would be very cautious say in a scenario where he's bringing on players like , even Troisi (Arzani) or which ever. For which there will be zero attractive football happennings. Realistically.. by this stage of the game it would be heavily defensive.. Yes another thing stated about the history of BVM 

Agreed Arzani is definitely one to watch
I'm on the fence about whether we should select him but some one compared him to gilchrist and I think that is a good comparison! He is just great to watch. The most exciting a league player since rogic

Fair enough. I'm really impressed by his form at present. Particularly the goal scoring part which is an area I think the NT is doing crap in.

But I agree with your point about Juric's hold-up play. I guess then if Ruka is to start against France, it would be in lieu of Kruse (which is in itself a big call). So I suppose it would depend greatly on how they train.

New Signing

Good point about tactical flexibility. I agree with you and grazorblade that it will be of crucial importance. We'll need to have all bases covered/some versatility. To that end, I think Milligan is going to be a very important player. I think Ruka can be deployed on the wing or up front. Mooy can play CDM or CAM (horses for courses). And Irvine and Luongo have a bit of flexibility too, thank goodness.

I still firmly believe, though, that Arzani can easily fit into a 23 man squad (along with Leckie, Kruse, Ruka and Mebrahtu) without compromising our depth in more central positions.

If we want to go with the cricket analogy, I think we should look at the role within in the team part. Rather than a technical analogy (in which case one might compare Arzani to a technically gifted batsman or an x-factor batsman such as Adam Gilchrist), it's more useful to look at his role within the team.

Batsmen save matches, bowlers win matches. You can't win a Test match if you can't take twenty wickets. You can't expect to win a football match if you can't break down an opponent's defence.

So, I'd compare Arzani to Peter Siddle in a particular match (not Peter Siddle in general, but in a particular match). I'd compare him to Peter Siddle when he should have played at Trent Bridge. It was a green top, none of the other Aussie bowlers could hit a decent length or get any movement. You need that type of bowler who will consistently hit that length, test the batsman's 'corridor of uncertainty' and move the ball late. That's how you take wickets on that particular surface. But sadly the Australian selectors didn't realise and we got annihilated. Then Sidds played at The Oval and bowled beautifully. Arzani has the skills the others lack. And these skills make a real difference.

I think we should bring him along, but i really only see him as an option off the bench or as you mentioned out wide. If Juric gets injured i'd rather Cahill play as the 9 rather than Ruka.

Ange never bothered watching me, reveals Socceroo hopeful Duke

Forgotten Socceroo Mitchell Duke is aiming to prove Ange Postecoglou wrong for leaving him in the international cold as he targets a FIFA World Cup spot.
Ange never bothered watching me, reveals Socceroo hopeful Duke | : The World Game