2006

John Aloisi (Alaves, Spain) Marco Bresciano (Parma, Italy) Tim Cahill (Everton, England) Scott Chipperfield (Basel, Switzerland) Ante Covic (Hammarby, Sweden) Jason Culina (PSV Eindhoven, Holland) Ahmad Elrich (Fulham, England) Brett Emerton (Blackburn Rovers, England) Vince Grella (Parma, Italy) Joel Griffiths (Neuchatel Xamax, Switzerland) Zeljko Kalac (AC Milan, Italy) Harry Kewell (Liverpool, England) Stan Lazaridis (Birmingham City, England) Ljubo Milicevic (FC Thun, Switzerland) Lucas Neill (Blackburn Rovers, England) Tony Popovic (Crystal Palace, England) Mark Schwarzer (Middlesbrough, England) Josip Skoko (Wigan Athletic, England) Archie Thompson (Melbourne Victory, Australia) Michael Thwaite (National Bucharest, Romania) Tony Vidmar (NAC Breda, Holland) Mark Viduka (Middlesbrough, England) Luke Wilkshire (Bristol City, England)

Ended being
John Aloisi, Michael Beauchamp, Marco Bresciano, Tim Cahill, Scott Chipperfield, Ante Covic, Jason Culina, Brett Emerton, Vince Grella, Zeljko Kalac, Josh Kennedy, Harry Kewell, Stan Lazaridis, Mark Milligan, Craig Moore, Lucas Neill, Tony Popovic, Mark Schwarzer, Josip Skoko, Mile Sterjovski, Archie Thompson, Mark Viduka, Luke Wilkshire.

yeah, that squad.  just think how bad it would have been with holger still in charge. half of the players would have been "no current club"

Its so hard to predict these things, but thats a decent list

I made some time last year in a different thread but how many more Arzani's are out there? He went from Coogie United > FFA Skillaroos > NSWIS > FFA COE

It seems to me we still have an talent ID issue, and not only just finding these players but also allowing to play there way without being overcoached.

Its pretty rare for find someone this gifted like Arzani but given how many kids play football if we cant find more Arzani's when we have a problem, you thought the FFA NC was supposed to fix, is this about the culture and how he plays the game or both? 

Watching old highlights of the netherlands game is giving me nightmares about Maty again joking in a big game... be interested to see how sharp Vuka is after winning POTS for genk.

I'd be more worried about Jones...

2014 was worse. This squad has a good midfield and players have improved. 

Imagine if Ange has the 2014 squad to work his magic with.

No. It had Matt McKay in it and he took up the spot for a better player.

Who knows what was the 2002 Socceroo squad for the Oceana Cup which we ended up losing 1 nil to the All White?

2002 playoff against uruguay

GK   1   Mark Schwarzer
DF   2   Kevin Muscat   
DF   14   Shaun Murphy
DF   3   Craig Moore
DF   5   Tony Vidmar
MF   7   Brett Emerton
MF   4   Paul Okon (c)
MF   8   Josip Skoko
MF   11   Stan Lazaridis      
FW   9   Mark Viduka
FW   10   Harry Kewell
Substitutions:
GK   12   Željko Kalac
DF   6   Tony Popovic
DF   16   Steve Horvat
MF   13   Mark Bresciano
MF   17   Steve Corica
FW   18   Paul Agostino      
FW   21   John Aloisi
Manager:
Frank Farina

Sterjovski replaced Popovic in second leg.

Rubbish. Arnold's Asian Cup Squad was good. Arnold's coaching and his results were pretty bad. 

GK	Mark Schwarzer	6 October 1972 (aged 34)	46	Middlesbrough
2	DF	Lucas Neill	9 March 1978 (aged 29)	34	West Ham United
3	DF	Patrick Kisnorbo	24 March 1981 (aged 26)	12	Leicester City
4	FW	Tim Cahill	6 December 1979 (aged 27)	23	Everton
5	MF	Jason Čulina	5 August 1980 (aged 26)	22	PSV Eindhoven
6	DF	Michael Beauchamp	8 March 1981 (aged 26)	7	1. FC Nürnberg
7	DF	Brett Emerton	22 February 1979 (aged 28)	57	Blackburn Rovers
8	MF	Luke Wilkshire	2 October 1981 (aged 25)	16	Twente
9	FW	Mark Viduka (c)	9 October 1975 (aged 31)	39	Newcastle United
10	MF	Harry Kewell	22 September 1978 (aged 28)	24	Liverpool
11	FW	Archie Thompson	23 October 1978 (aged 28)	26	Melbourne Victory
12	GK	Brad Jones	3 July 1982 (aged 25)	1	Middlesbrough
13	MF	Vince Grella	5 October 1979 (aged 27)	27	Torino
14	FW	Brett Holman	27 March 1984 (aged 23)	7	Nijmegen
15	FW	John Aloisi	5 February 1976 (aged 31)	50	Alavés
16	DF	Michael Thwaite	2 May 1983 (aged 24)	6	Wisła Kraków
17	MF	Carl Valeri	14 August 1984 (aged 22)	2	Grosseto
18	GK	Michael Petkovic	16 July 1976 (aged 30)	5	Sivasspor
19	MF	Nick Carle	23 November 1981 (aged 25)	4	Gençlerbirliği
20	MF	David Carney	30 November 1983 (aged 23)	2	Sydney
21	MF	Mile Sterjovski	27 May 1979 (aged 28)	32	Basel
22	DF	Mark Milligan	4 August 1985 (aged 21)	3	Sydney
23	MF	Mark Bresciano	11 February 1980 (aged 27)	33	Palermo

A better coach than Farina Ned Zelic would have been in the squad and we should have made it in Japan/ Kprea.

2002 would have been great. Solid side. Imagine if they played more often together!

That 2007 squad was one of our best. Arnold managed to cock things up spectacularly despite having an absolutely stacked squad with most players still in their prime.
Only players missing were Chipperfield, Skoko and McDonald (who had only just started scoring for fun by then).

1st XI

When Nabbout and Petratos are cut and Brillante is retained.It will go pretty close.

In a perfect world, we could have fielded a team of (fit, healthy and playing regularly)

Best 2018 side would have been...?

-------------------Ryan--------------
Karacic/Sainsbury/Spiranovic/Behich
Leckie/Irvine/Luongo/Borello
-----------Rogic/Juric---------------

-------------------Jones--------------
Deng/Williams/Susnajr/Gersbach
Atkinson/Dougall/Mooy/Petratos
---------Arzani/Maclaren----------

Vukovic

I reckon it's going to be horses for courses. Different personnel and slightly different tactics against France compared to against Denmark or against Peru.
I'd say there should be some mainstays to start across all three matches in an ideal situation (Mooy, Irvine, Sains, Behich, Leckie and Ryan).
Then the rest will be built around that frame and will vary depending on the attack/defence balance and how the attacks are to be crafted.
If Mooy is fit to start for all three matches, then Rogic off the bench (potentially) for all three matches for half an hour or so.
He is extremely patchy when he plays for an hour to the full ninety. Better to give him a short sharp burst.
Get Mooy to try to ensure we have the right sort of influence in midfield to start the match.

Anyway, against France, I'd say everyone starting should be a strong defensive player and then we focus all our goal scoring attempts on the counter.
Maybe Rukya on one of the wings. No Arzani. Timmy is an option late in the game

Against Denmark, strong defensive basis. Obviously we'll be hoping to make the most of the counter-attack.
But we should also hope to have a bit more of the ball and to break them down in a slightly more proactive way.
I'd say Arzani to start in that match (if fit enough to play at least an hour at his best). Once again, Timmy's an option for later in the game.

And probably a similar story against Peru.

2 dominant players in a big 5 (played more than 2500 minutes)
2 regulars
2.5 bit part players in big 5 league (though neil also played for galatasaray that year)
3.5 players in uefa/europa quality teams (including neill)
2 strong performances in second teir euro leagues
valeri in a top 2nd division team

This time we have
3 dominant players in a big 5 (ryan leckie and mooy)
4 players in uefa/europa quality teams (rogic,  Juric, vukavic and jones)
jedi in a promotion candidate ecl team
4 standout 2nd division players (kruse, irvine luongo, meredith)
2 club captains at a 2nd teir (sains, karacic) and 2 standouts in a second teir (ruka, behich)

I guess the main difference is the bit parts and regulars in the big 5 and how highly you rate those. For some context ruka and holman were regulars for a season in big 5 leagues but couldn't nail down a starting spot so being a regular is probably the same level as being a dominant 2nd teir player and a bit part player is probably lower level again. So I'd say the two squads are pretty similar (though many in 2010 had experience playing at an impressive level)

1st 11
------------------------ryan---------------------
--karacic--sains---degenek----behich---
-------------mooy------luongo----------------
--leckie----------rogic------------kruse-------
--------------------juric--------------------------
2nd 11
-----------------------Jones-------------------
-risdon---jurman----jedinak-----meredith
-------------milligan---irvine-------------------
-arzani-----------petratos------nabbout----
--------------------cahill-------------------------

subs: vuk, brilliante, ruka, troisi

not a huge difference between teh sides if you ask me

Imo, it's problematic simply to count who's in what league. Leaving aside the prospect that a footballer in an inferior can be a better footballer than one in a higher quality league...

Leaving that aside, simply applying the 'who plays in what football league' brush completely ignores how much those guys are playing, what kind of form they are in, their fitness and their form.

In South Africa, we had one of our most renowned sides with most of them in big football leagues. And, in fairness, they played well, all things considered. But it ignores the fact that plenty of them had been injury stricken and were struggling to get consistency with their clubs sides.

Whereas now, there's nowhere near as much experience or Hollywood leagues. The biggest problem though is not that. It's the gaps in various parts of the team. That we don't have so many footballers in this league or that league is more a symptom of the problem rather than a cause. We do, however, have encouraging signs here and there. And with good management, they should be able to put in three good matches in the group stages.

gaps are actually remarkably similar

in 2010 we had a huge problem with left back as chippers was past it and had an alarming decline in form and we had to play carney there who struggled for game time. We also had a problem with striker trying kennedy (whose game of towering over shorter j league players was less effective against euros)  and ruka. Grella also had a sharp decline leaving a hole in midfield though valeri did a decent job filing it

On the whole I actually think the squads are pretty similar in quality

as to the problems of just writing down where the players played I agree thats problematic but some critics of the current team would probably use the line of reasoning "where are they playing and how often" as a reason to panic. My point is that even if you use that line of reasoning its probably only as bad as 2010 if you just look at paper and recognize that getting less than 2000 minutes in a big 5 league probably isn't better than being a dominant player a level down

2014 was a bottoming out (and no it wasn't Holgers fault) It was the FFAs failure to develop a youth development strategy from the mid 2000s

Ever since then its been a steady ascent and hopefully it continues to improve with clubs and federations putting more and more into youth development 

Frankly, I don't think it's going be along the lines of First XI and Second XI. There will surely be different objectives for the different games. So horses for courses.

I can't quote BVM on this word for word. But I heard him say something along the lines of- you play a side like France, you lose nine times out of ten. My job is to make it so that we are in a position to lose maybe six times out of ten.

Playing France will be like trying to see off the new ball in cricket. You don't go chasing it. You know exactly where your off stump is and you have to be very judicious about what you play at and what you leave. So that means it's going to be about having a very robust defensive effort from all XI and probably channeling the attacks through the counter. If Mooy and Rogic both start against the French, I will throw something at the wall. BVM is pragamtic and listens to his staff. He'll surely know of the sheer folly of starting both of them together in central midfield.

There need to be completely different tactical objectives against the Danes and Peruvians. We need more impetus. And that's where Rogic and Arzani might feature a bit more.

Yep. But little do with the actual leagues they're playing in. More to do with strengths and weaknesses in positions.

Holger certainly deserves some blame for not giving experience to young players so that we didn't have a low quality young and inexperienced squad 

Also blame goes to nsl shutting down for a year creating a missing generation.

My egyptian friend said the egyptian league apparently shut down for a year and their national team apparently followed a u shaped curve where they also bottomed out for a year. (Can anyone confirm). I guess they now have salah so hopefully thats a sign for us there is light at the end of the tunnel

The ffa have had a lot of problems but they have also had some achievements. Having the a league go mainstream with consistent >10k crowd averages, organizing the npl to condense the talent and bringing in a more technical focus to youth development aren't anything to be sneezed out. If we get a second division and can have a proper season length things could improve pretty rapidly again

Inexperience and a lack of mobility stand out for me and that back four would give me if we lost the ball in midfield. 

 Milligan and Irvine would have to spend the whole game plugging holes in front of the defence. attacking midfield trio would have to drop back so far to link play that we'd constantly be stuck in our own half.

I was thinking more in terms of 1st 11 v 2nd 11 in training and a measure of depth which I think the guy I was replying to was going for

Defence is going to be interesting. In the past we haven't had the side to absorb a lot of pressure but maybe a back 7 of
----------------------ryan ---------------------
-karacic----sains------jedi------behich---
---------------mooy-----luongo---------------

might finally be good enough. Mooy had a huge problem defending against cutbacks and his speed off the mark. But he really showed against chelsea, man city and arsenal he can be part of a strong defensive unit while being the main outlet in transition. Jedi is finally got a string of games together at cb and has put in some classy performances though he gives us 1 less avenue to play out through. Ryan has really improved his keeping when a team is under the pump. Luongo generated 6 turnovers a game and provides speed over 5 metres that mooy lacks. The big unknown is rb. If he turns out to be good then we might have a chance defending deep.

Regardless though few teams in the world can just rely on a good defensive block to keep out france for 90 minutes. Even more important are the following 

1. bpo-bp transition if france has to worry about the counter attack they are probably committing less players forward when we are defending deep and having more space between the lines. Having a strong counter attack is not just good for offence but is a cornerstone of effective defence
2. holding possesion. If we have the ball they can't score and our defence can turn off the need to concentrate so intensely which mentally wears you out. Also you lose more energy in defence than offence. If we can get 45% possession or higher it becomes much harder to score against us
3. pressing from the front. Kruse and leckie are the best at this. It also means they have to transition slower and wears out their players because more players have to drop back. 

The tricky part is consideration 1 means playing rogic or arzani as one of your front four but not sure either are good at 3. So some decisions there

grazorblade

I'll try to respond to the rest of your post tomorrow. But just on the 1st XI vs 2nd XI thing before I hit the hay...

I understand what you and melbourne_terrace were driving at. But it does say one or two things about what BVM is working with. When there's depth, you can more or less, say who makes up the 1st XI and who makes up the 2nd XI without too much difficulty. Imo, the fact that we can't do that at all really highlights how much of a jigsaw puzzle our squad is.

Clearly, Mooy and Rogic are both among Australia's best XI and, theoretically, can be in the same starting line-up. In practice, however, one negates the other's effectiveness (almost always) and they're both to slow to be playing in central midfield together.

Leckie is a very industrious footballer who can play well against some of the world's best. But he often has the most awful first touch.

Similarly, our best finisher is the bloke who can only play for fifteen minutes.

And Aus' most gifted proponent of one-on-one at speed is a youngster with very little experience and who could do with a fair bit of defensive work.

All teams have problems like this. It's rare that everybody can do everything perfectly. Everybody has their strengths and weaknesses. The problem, for Australia, is that it's so extreme. So, the starting line-up should very quite a bit depending on who they're up against and what they're trying to do.

it is a slow back four you couldn't play with a high line

I remember when pim tried a high line against germany with snail paced defenders. Probably going for the "its the last thing they'd expect" strategy :D