Paddles you obviously don't agree with the Australian theory that sandpaper helps the ball swing, so please explain why 3 players are currently serving suspensions if Nothing At All helps a ball swing. Just being facetious Paddles.

Mark Waugh has just announced that if Starc doesn't fire he faces the axe. And people wonder why Australia is struggling. Thank God Waugh is no longer a test selector. Starc and Lyons were the ones that took 9/162 in the second innings, they bowled well in tandem, and Waugh wants to drop Starc. Who is going to take the wickets? Cummins and Hazlewood did bowl 41 overs in the 2nd innings they did get plenty of opportunity to take wickets and could only manage 1. And Starc can bat as well. Starc, Cummins and Lyons were the only reason we came close to winning. Replacing Starc is going to make no difference to Australia's performance.

With opposition sides are easily pushing the 600 runs per match and often scoring 700 runs a match (declaring some of the time), which makes it difficult for any batting side regardless of the ability of the batsmen, especially when selectors have only been playing recently 5 specialist batsmen, then yes there is a problem with the bowling attack, but it's not Starc.

Starc's record is 46 matches for 191 wickets, that puts him in the elite performers
Here is the list of fastest to 200 wickets and just about every bowler to take 200 wickets is on this list.
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/wi/content/records/283534.html
Starc will be among some great bowlers. Hazlewood and possibly Cummins dream of having his sort of record.

His average is 28 not much difference to Hazlewood's 27 (which amounts to only 2-3 runs per innings difference) which Starc takes care of any discrepancy with his batting ability. Sure Cummins bowling average is superior at 25 and bats just as well as Starc, but he is only early in his career, anything can happen to that.

NSW defeated Western Australia by 104 runs in a low-scoring encounter dominated by Blues batter Kurtis Patterson (107# and 43) and fast bowling.WA quick Jhye Richardson collected 8-47 in the first innings and 11 wickets for the match.

This was a red ball audition for the new Perth Stadium two Shield rounds back. CA has missed a trick not picking both Kurtis Patterson and Jhye Richardson for Friday's debut of the new Test venue. When is this mob going to think outside the box? Yes show loyalty to the debutante Marcus Harris but those that failed in the First test should make way for players in form at this venue. A horses for courses policy which CA seems loathe to explore.

You need a visit to an optometrist Mike.. Cummins and Hazlewood outbowled Starc hands down. One of our members hit the nail on the head.. a large proportion of Starc's wickets are tail enders. He is a specialist tail mopper upper. Reason his figures are so inflated. He is the weak link in our attack. Those 191 wickets from 46 matches are spread over almost 8 years. The man is inconsistent. Remains so.. otherwise why would some of our past greats be questioning his form and fitness. Not for the first time either. Still Hazlewood bashing Mike after many are calling the big country lad's  showing in Adelaide as first class.. pick of our bowlers.. top shelf. He shut down Pujara and Kholi when they threatened to get away from us. Admit it give the man some grass and he looks a different bowler to the one that has his effectiveness nullified all too often by having to toil on flat roads. This applies to all our seamers. Expect Tremain, Boland, Bird, Siddle would be welcoming the grassy Shield decks too.

:P

Well Starc is on track for 200 wickets in 49 tests, although 48 would not be surprising and 47 certainly possible. At any of them he would be 4th quickest Australian fast bowler. Cummins has a very long way to go but is on track for 45 tests which would put him equal second on the list of Australian fast bowlers with McGrath.
Hazlewood is on track to reach 200 wickets in 53 tests matches. So a lot slower, the same number a Gillespie and well ahead of Siddle with 58.

Starc has a higher average than Cummins and Hazlewood because his economy rate is woeful, only Brett Lee has worst among Australians on the list. One way of getting wickets in tests is building up pressure on batsmen by limiting their scoring. Starc will tend to be a liability in doing that while a bowler like Hazlewood will help get wickets for the team by keeping the scoring down.

replacing any bowler with patterson is justified but thats a compliment to patterson


our bowling is not the problem. They often bowl under pressure and are underrated by many on this forum

CREASE FRIGHTENING

BEWARE A MITCH FULL OF BOUNCE

BANNED AID TREATMENT

Three headlines in this mornings Tele. I worked some time for News Limited and they  sure were sticklers for trendy, funky headlines.

What about this revelation that as many as 30 Sharma deliveries in First test were no balls and not called by incompetent umpires..  India won by 30 runs. Coincidence or fate?

I think it hurts the bowler just as much if not more to be fair.  Twice he missed out on wickets because he was overstepping...

The umpire isn't just there to look for noballs on wicket taking deliveries, the umpires are there to let the bowler know every delivery when they've overstepped.

There's no way Sharma would have bowled 30 no balls if they were being regularly called...

I think it is about time some new technology is brought in for the no balls - lets have it automated...

What is the third umpire doing other than twiddling his thumbs. Give him the responsibility of calling no balls. Yes this will hold up the game I hear you say.

Third umpire is watching the broadcaster's feed, and the people at home do not want to watch no ball analysis every ball...

It needs to be automated... 

Just put some sensors, lasers, motion cameras,  whatever is more efficient - and get it done.

Good points Test Fan but a few points
1 Gillespie was deemed the No 3 bowler and as such no-one ever expected him to bowl a side to victory and his job was as you suggested was to bowl economically whilst the strike bowlers in McGrath and Lee rested, maybe pull out a couple of wickets. Out of a possible 80 overs would you agree MCGrath and Lee would probably bowl 18-20, Warne about 20- 25, Gillespie 13-15 and a few overs made up by part timers. Could you ever see McGrath bowling less overs in a test than Gillespie? I would have hated to be around McGrath if he was overlooked for Gillespie. 

2 Would you agree that the opening bowlers are the ones that are expected to take wickets such as Lillee, Hadlee, West Indian dream team etc etc. Here is the list of the best strike rates of generally your primary No 1 and No 2 bowlers in a side.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/283274.html

 Now I can see  Starc and Cummins, I can also see Pattinson. McGrath and Lee are there, I can see Johnson, and Harris, I can even see Doug "the rug" Bollinger, can you please tell me what number Hazlewood comes in because I can't find this particular OPENING bowler. Now if your saying that Hazlewood is the technical No 3 bowler of the side, I am 100% behind you I AGREE. But everyone knows that is not the case. Hazlewood is deemed one of our strike bowlers he opens the bowling, he generally bowls the most overs of an innings by the quicks. Take the accolades, take the money, take the criticism. If he is the No 3 bowler then bowl him as the No 3 and let the opening bowlers take the new ball, take the overs and when they fail they take the criticism.

Starc takes 4.15 wickets per test, Cummins takes 4.5 wickets per test, Hazlewood takes 3.78 wickets per test. Hazlewood is not a strike bowler Starc and Cummins are.

3 With regards to Siddle after 41 tests he also had taken only 151 wickets. Siddle also was only a No 3 bowler starting his career behind Lee and Johnson. Lee retired Johnson injured, they bought in Bollinger and Ben Hilfenhaus, who both were deemed unsatisfactory opening bowlers and were dropped (Doug is on the above list and they still dropped him) but Siddle remained as the No 3 as Harris then made his appearance, Johnson came back and Siddle was back to No 3. He was a make shift opening bowler. And ultimately was dropped.

4 Economy rates mean nothing in test cricket too many variables due to pitches and deterioration of the pitch over the course of the game. Test Cricket is a limited game 450 overs. All that matters is ability to take 20 wickets with the minimum of runs scored. Averages, Strike Rates and average wickets per match are the primary stats, can the bowlers take these wickets. If 2 players have the same average and one has a lower economy rate, you know what that means longer in the field under the hot sun sapping the energy of players some of which may have to go out and open the batting. Hazlewood average 27 Starc 28. Each wicket cost the same. And Starc whose batting average is 21 compared to Hazlewood's 12 makes up for any discrepancy after all it is 1 run per difference 

Remembering 450 overs in a test, who do you want a team of
A) 4 bowlers who after 50 overs each have 4/108 (great Economy Rate)
B) 4 bowlers who after 50 overs have 6/162 (great strike rate poor economy rate)

If you chose A where are the other 4 wickets coming from, they're still out there batting you can draw the game but you can't win.
If you chose B Congratulations you've taken the 20 wickets required for a set amount of runs, then it is up to the batsmen to win the match

5 Food for thought maybe Starc contributes to Hazlewoods wickets by getting the batsmen to swing, Supposition not proof!

Agree. Bring Test cricket into the 21st century. 

Mike - I think you're getting very very very close on the bowler SR thing - but I don't think you have nailed it just yet.

I have put a lot of time and thought into it - and there is a very good argument that is able to be sighted through stats patterns.

This applies to tons of test cricketers.

Basically - shift your focus on Haze vs Starc, to Haze and Starc - and you might just have the argument you've been looking for for a long time :P

Basically - I think you're right - SR matters for the team - but why? I have the answer - but if you work it out for yourself - you will totally get it too. 

Test Fan if Hazlewood was a Qlder .. we would not be hearing any of this guff from Mike. He is parochially anti NSW. and has a hate on Hazlewood for some unknown reason. He and I have been jousting  online for years now.. and he keeps bringing out the same old broken record.

Heh - he is anti-NSW - but that doesn't mean his arguments are all off.

He is skating to something that I think is very valuable in team analytics - but right now his focus on Starc vs Haze is preventing him from seeing what is relevant to Starc and Haze...

Do you mean James  Pattinson the bowler, or Kurtis Patterson the batter, Grazor?

Wow!

I love seeing data like this.

Thanks Mike R.

Whenever I try and look it up, I struggle to acquire the info I want.

I would've assumed that H was our top bowler, until I saw these stats.

I am betting Hazlewood has taken more top order wickets on a match for match basis than Starc. So how about we centre the s/r debate of these two on that aspect of the game. Now Paddles what are the most valuable wickets.. top order or tail? If we had the stats to prove this I will back myself to be correct. I say that Haze would get at least 70% of his wickets from  top seven batsmen. Starc no more than 40%. Being generous with perhaps 50%. A majority of Starc's  victims are defenceless tailenders so his bowling figures are inflated... disproportinately.

Captains want seamers in their opening attack to find whatever is in the surface to exploit with the new seam. The reason CA and Paine want Hazlewood there. Someone like Starc who is neither a specialist seamer or swing bowler only has one vital asset and that is pace. How often does he actually use that pace? He should be at the body all the time restricting and making life merry hell for the batsman. Instead a good percentage of his deliveries are wasted as he sprays them all over the shop. Admittedly he does get the new ball  to swing late and york unsuspecting batsmen but that is all too rare. On those occasions he is world class. The other times he looks grade cricket standard...no not even that good..park cricket standard.

Mike has the top middle and tail breakdown. Him and I discussed it last week. I had a similar hunch as yours and Mike confirmed it - but its nowhere near in the proportions you think it to be... but it is there...

IMO Starc needs a stock ball - whether that is mid pitch, or line and length - it doesn't matter - but he needs a stock ball. Spraying it around and leaking runs is doing little good for himself and makes it easy for batsman to score from, they can stay on the crease with a half step forward and just wait for the over pitched straight or down leg half volley. So whether it is short stuff like Mitch J or back of a length length like Cummins, or length like Haze, Starc needs to sort something out soon.

Also in your opinion who of the two is more valuable to a cricket side. A bloke that has pace as his only potent weapon.. leaks runs and produces fewer than average wicket taking balls to actual batsmen. Or someone that is at you all the time.. giving you little in freebies and taking his wickets more by building pressure. 

Looking at training today theres talk that theyre going to drop Finch down the order and open with Khawaja. Theyre sticking to the squad. To me thats immensely silly. You play your best batsman at his best position and thats 3 for Khawaja

Starc and Lee are such frustrating bowlers. Blessed with sheer pace they all too often wasted that weapon. How Lee disappointed us all when he sprayed balls that should have been at the body and making life uncomfortable for the batsman. He wasted such a rare commodity in cricket. Express pace. 

Told you. I posted this earlier.

NSW defeated Western Australia by 104 runs in a low-scoring encounter dominated by Blues batter Kurtis Patterson (107# and 43) and fast bowling.WA quick Jhye Richardson collected 8-47 in the first innings and 11 wickets for the match.

This was a red ball audition for the new Perth Stadium two Shield rounds back. CA has missed a trick not picking both Kurtis Patterson and Jhye Richardson for Friday's debut of the new Test venue. When is this mob going to think outside the box? Yes show loyalty to the debutante Marcus Harris but those that failed in the First test should make way for players in form at this venue. A horses for courses policy which CA seems loathe to explore.

I thought selectors would be smarter and just bring in Burns. Dont know why i ever have hope. Khawaja opening and Marsh 3 is a disaster

Uhmmm - Starc is a great limited overs death bowler.

But I have long given my opinion - they're both overrated in tests imo.

Both have some significant improvements required to be near the level of Aus media adulation heaped upon them.

The Indian boys outbowled them - so Aus really need to lift their game.

referring to red ball cricket. specially Test.