Have a look at season 3 compared to season 4. In season 4 the lowest crowds for teams was higher than season 3 which suggests stronger / growing loyalty for core fans. But the highest crowds were lower because of diminished casual interest (tickets were bumped up $5 that season as well as other issues). The result of season 4 was not only lower attendances across the board, but then season 5, and finally season 6


As for TV ratings, yes they are inaccurate and yes they are shit. But they are the only mechanism the industry has and its the one advertisers swear by. If we want any of that advertising revenue and TV dollars then we need to play the same game as the others. We need to understand the ratings system and learn how to control it. When the FFA criticised SBS for the ratings of their own product, and then stormed to commercial networks thinking being on the same bandwidth of popular shows would make them popular too, it just goes to show how misinformed they are to how ratings actually work. And when their decision was guided by people involved in negotiations for other successful sports, it just goes to show how much it was a case of riding on the coat tails of a popular product instead of any particular talent or understanding of TV negotiations

Why? Are you assuming they will already be bad?

Fuck you're bitter. At least you can sleep tonight saying 'iz betta dan da EN ESS ELLE'

Interesting debate/slanging match.
Personally I have no idea whats going on.
My view on the league is probably skewed downwardly because ,I live in a city at the moment where a lot of sporting teams like Roar,Reds,Lions ,Heat are shite.
Hence my personal experience is people aren't following HAL,like they used to.
How all this equates with record memberships makes little sense compared to a massive drop off in viewing.Membership numbers could have been cooked for years ,but even if they are not real now.They never were and we still had much higher ratings.
FTA figures are at their lowest ever and so are pay tv .
The drop off doesnt reflect memberships.
It also doesnt reflect W-League figures,which seem to be the same ,i presume.
Something is going on ,which isnt accounted for and streaming may be the missing factor.Just thinking about it logically.

One other thing to consider for Kayo is subscription numbers.
As NRL and AFL havent started yet,you would think subscriptions before Xmas would skew towards Football fans.
Fox revenue comes from advertising and subscription.What the split is ,i dont know.But if roughly the same number of people subscribe to Foxsports/Kayo in total this year compared to previous years,then a drop off in viewers is not as critical.

“Going off memberships this is stronger than it has ever been...”

Yep. Pet memberships have given us a real boost. So have no-game and 2-game memberships.

We’re stronger than we’ve ever been !!!

😀

Better get the tissues handy.

I can't wait for yesterday's figures.

@eldar, problem with your arguement is HAL is currently available on free to air tv and when ratings for big games like mv v sfc on a sat night are so poor, it reinforces the view that HAL is in trouble.

If membership numbers aren't accurate now they weren't accurate before and so all we have is steadily growing inaccurate numbers which, never the less, indicate a pool of at least 130 000 people who are happy to throw some money at the a-league and who would presumably be happy enough to sit down and watch it for free on TV.

If TV ratings are collected as you say then there is even more reason to doubt their accuracy. It would be too easy to corrupt and are the people chosen an accurate reflection of Australian society and emerging viewing habits.

 

First of all, Optus is a phone company not a TV company and so they dont have TV ratings numbers (obviously).

Secondly their EPL rights purchase was used to drive subscriber numbers which is working as detailed in below link.

http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/7582-epl-drives-optus-subscriber-growth-march-2018-201805040640

When you run the numbers for Optus market share for mobile & fixed line internet & % that watch EPL, Roy Morgan estimates Australia has around 1.7 million EPL viewers.

The only people counted in the ratings sample are those with a ratings box. To see how it works (with satirical humour) watch the Family Guy episode where Peter gets a ratings box. Whether a member goes to the game or stays home has no impact if they dont have a ratings box

The second point is the member figures obviously includes pets, member only (no games), or limited game passes. Or it is a skewed stat based on a 30% turnaround by two struggling clubs (like when season 7 was compared to season 5 and the only difference was 3 train wreck clubs were no longer train wrecks)

I honestly dont know how anybody can look at the interest in the A League as it stands and not see a problem

If proper memberships are actually up, why isnt this being reflected in the attendances which have gone down.

So WSW & SFC members only support their teams at certain grounds, yep, thats a pretty solid excuse.

Matilda's & Socceroos are currently getting heaps of interest, but probably not the sort FFA wanted.

Using your logic, I should invest in a Peppa Pig merchandise store as the actual audience must be in the millions as the tv rating dont show the true tv audience

So if we don't get EPL ratings from Optus, are we to assume that they are rubbish?

So TV ratings are accurate but Membership numbers aren't....ok, no bias in your thinking.

Attendances are holding pretty firm considering WSW and SFC are playing in temporary grounds. Media is pretty solid from what I can see and on social media SydneyFC was in the top 10 most tweeted about sporting teams.....Socceroos, Matildas and A-league all amongst the most viewed organisations.

When clubs like MV are selling 2 game memberships, what did you think would happen to the membership numbers, but this is not a true reflection of where the game is. Attendences are down, TV audiences are down, media interest is down, general public interest is down, but the HAL has never been better. Yeah right

That's your opinion and you're wrong .

What an unprofessional organisation to not know the value of their product.

Rubbish, the fanatical support is the families who take their kids to watch Adelaide or CCM week in week out or the hundreds of SFC fans who travel interstate to watch away against Victory, or the people who will be in China or Japan to watch their team play Champions League.

Going off memberships this is stronger than it has ever been and in terms of the football being produced, I think it is stronger than it has ever been. That is the real world, not your TV Ratings/Trainspotting numbers.

“but clearly there is still a strong fanatical support for the league that isn't reflected in Fox ratings.”

Rubbish.

The strong fanatical support is what we see in the active stands at games, and that has shrunk.

The less ‘fanatical’ support are those watching on telly from time to time - the ratings - and that has massively shrunk.

There is less now less interest in the HAL than there was 6 years ago. To suggest otherwise is to not live in the real word.

I think we really need to hit the mainstream a bit more we have players with a personality get them on tv/radio sell the product. An example Riley mcgree’s his goal was outstanding we should do more with it

Well, people do care hence the fact there are 130 000 members, either these people aren't interested in watching games on TV or they don't all have Fox.

I'm not denying that we have a problem attracting a) your average AFL/League and Cricket fan and b) Euro/NSL fans but clearly there is still a strong fanatical support for the league that isn't reflected in Fox ratings.

I personally gave up Fox and took up Kayo and I would only assume that there are more like me. I think in terms of the game on the field it is up and down, clubs like WSW and Brisbane are really struggling while the Big Blue the other night was one of the best games and atmospheres I have seen, ever and as a spectacle it compared very favourably to anything in Australian sport..

So yeah, criticism is warranted but the idea that the league is dying based on Fox ratings is more wishful thinking from you guys I think.

All these excuses....

Ratings are small because people aren’t watching, people aren’t watching because they don’t care. It’s not because there’s a hidden tens of thousands of people suddenly streaming the league and no one wants to crow about it.

@ AJF

“Kayo is foxtel, and if they dont tell FFA what the numbers are, how much do you think the broadcast rights will be worth based on current ratings?”

I know who owns Kayo and I know why they did it. Late but better than never.

“and if they dont tell FFA what the numbers are, how much do you think the broadcast rights will be worth”

That’s the whole point. If they don’t tell the FFA what the numbers are they’re worth what Kayo says they’re worth.

Let’s say Kayo were to say that 50,000 watched on average, what would the FFA tell Optus? So that is the central point around streaming broadcast figures - whoever knows them has the power.

GyFox said OzTAM were looking to extend their work into streaming, my guess would be the FFA would be very interested in that (even though it will exclude mobile data).

My point is not whether viewing figures are good, bad or indifferent. It’s just that without streaming the figures are incomplete.

If football is going well for Kayo , I’d watch for Kayo picking up some NPL content to try and keep the subscribers through winter .. if the figures are low they won’t bother but I think we’ll be speculating on this for a long while.

So the entire industry accepts and uses these figures, except the FFA/HAL because the ratings have collapsed and it cant be right that the A-League is now getting out-rated by Peppa Pig re-runs.

Even if your view it as a "score" it is shizenhausen compared to Peppa Pigs score and has been going downhill for a number of years.

Kayo is foxtel, and if they dont tell FFA what the numbers are, how much do you think the broadcast rights will be worth based on current ratings?

@ bluebird.

If I were the FFA I’d be all over the OzTAM stats, how they’re completed and where the sample boxes are located. It wont take much to move the needle up/down and so much emphasis is placed on these numbers.

But Again, I’m not trying to say anything other than these discussions are incomplete without adding in streaming.

There’s an extrapolation of this debate on how future broadcast deals will be handled - the FFA appear clueless in this area but in future they’re likely to have to sell the rights to multiple service providers, not just Foxtel who pay and on sell.

Bingo. TV ratings have never attempted to be a literal figure

If there are ~3500 households in the sample, and an average of 5 people per household, then each person represents ~1000 people to get the total metro population. It doesnt take into account that 30% (or whatever) have foxtel. So when you add FTA figures to paytv figures you get a guess based on 130% of the metro population

The A League ratings are so low that as a literal figure you might be talking 4 or 5 households. Thats where this kind of stats falls over. If you asked 1500 people what they did last night, and 1 person said they were sniffing their grandmas panties, you cant assume that 1000 people did the same thing

The only value ratings have, which is the only system we have, is they are comparable to one another (on the same platform) and also previous years because the system is the consistent. So we can compare A League games on payTV to previous A League games, or other sports on the same platform, and draw conclusions on viewing trends (on the sample at least). But it is not literal

Instead of seeing ratings as "number of people", its better to view it as a score

@AJF

I’m told Kayo don’t tell the FFA the streaming numbers. If you know different that’s fine.

I worked at BT Vision and NOW TV in Hong Kong. Streaming figures were commercial in confidence. Extremely so if the content was in demand.

If Kayo are telling the FFA the numbers then they’re fucking idiots.

@ GyFox

There’s a question as to why OzTAM produce viewing numbers? It’s generally accepted that it helps with advertising spend plus provides feedback on the success/failure of a show.

Streaming companies don’t need that latter one; they know how many people are streaming although that doesn’t directly equate to viewership of course. But they don’t need it.

Will it help them with advertising spend?

If I was an advertiser would I accept an OzTAM estimate or would I want to see the company streaming figures - I’d prefer actual personally.

So it’s interedting that they’re doing this. I’m sure it can work in the same way as the current OzTAM system but it looks a bit like someone at OzTAM has seen a need to try and “stay in the game”.

Having seen the inside of IP TV the broadcasters don’t need it - they have all the analytics they need including streaming numbers, total and average duration and when people hop channels, and they have this +/- 1 and can drill down to IP address which opens up other possibilities such as targeted and geo-advertising.

So let’s see

@waz, online figures are known but aren’t published. I have seen previous stats for Telstra and they are a fraction of the regular tv audience. Plus if they were any good, why isn’t FFA crowing about them?

Also with the Fox figures, need to realise that people with subscription have been able to stream with Foxtel go at no additional cost (which is what I do) for ages. Those streaming numbers were not included in previous tv figures and the ftv (which we cant even get figures for most the time) and paytv ratings decline was noticeable before any of these new services were introduced.

The discussion about kayo has a lot of similarities to discussions regarding how a switch from sbs to a commercial ftv station would bring about massive audience growth and we all know how that ended up.

Unfortunately I agree with mouflo, think we have reach peak a-league 2 years ago and we are now in decline, only question is how low does it go

@ bluebird

If we accept that OzTAM is an accurate way of representing viewership then it must be impacted by a shift in viewing habits eg if people shift from Fox to streaming.

If it’s not accurate enough to pick this up then the whole debate is a mute point, because their figures are useless and no more than a best guess.

Again, I have no idea what the numbers are or might be. I do though find it inconceivable that no one is watching Kayo.

I have Fox and Koyo. I haven’t watched a game on Foxtel since I got Kayo. Not streaming feels like driving a 1980’s car again.

My 16 y.o. boy hasn’t watched FTA in a decade, he streams shit all the time (as do my two daughters). He’s a roar member of 10+ years but has never watched a game on tv. But the bugger streams the HAL now using my account ... and I can hear him watching the mariners game now, while he’s playing fifa and chatting to some mate he’s never met in Melbourne.

At Roar we have a Uni Supporters group called uROAR - they never had Foxtel but I know dozens who have either got Kayo now or moved to Telstra to get the free app.

It’s all anecdotal I agree. But the viewership is there it seems.