So what are we looking at here? Thunderstorms, transport problems...?

Ticket prices seem to be a significant issue out west. 

Until the A League somehow deals with the oversized stadium and ticket pricing issues, I really don't see how the competition can improve attendance metrics. 

Scudamore has said to the club owners that they need to play in appropriate sized stadiums so hopefully we see Suncorp, Marvel, Westpac and GMHBA dropped from the list and Allianz downsized to 30k rather than 45k.  Ideally the stadium should be a minimum of 60% of capacity for any game if it is designed well if you want good atmosphere.

Oversized stadiums is a myth surely, we should be aiming to fill these oversized stadiums.

That means people buying cat A or cat B tickets for games against CCM

Bigger venues have more general admission and cat C tickets. You might get (as an example) 25k into Marvel at low cost, but only 15k into AAMI. Thats why when teams move to smaller venues their attendances shrink proportionately

Actually experience world wide is that you get better attendance at an appropriate sized stadium.  You really should throw your AFL thinking away.

Thats assuming teams get the same attendance for each game, and there are no other tenants. How would you find an appropriate sized venue for the following:

Team	High	Low	Total
Melbourne Victory	40,504	8,039	20%
Sydney FC	30,588	6,261	20%
Perth Glory	17,856	7,213	40%
Brisbane Roar	15,129	6,084	40%
Western Sydney Wanderers	21,984	5,067	23%
Newcastle Jets	11,814	6,701	57%
Adelaide United	12,866	7,071	55%
Wellington Phoenix	23,648	4,829	20%
Melbourne City	24,306	4,950	20%
Central Coast Mariners	8,923	3,703	41%

Even if you were able to shape the venue right down to the last fan, every team would have had at least one game where the stadium was less than 60% full

Atmosphere is one of the major drivers for fans to keep returning to games.  If you get 20k at a large 50k venue eg Suncorp or Marvel, the atmosphere is nowhere near as good as if you get 20k in a 30k stadium eg AAMI and Bankwest.  If you use a large oval stadium the atmosphere is way worse than a large rectangular stadium with the same capacity and crowd.  There is a reasonable amount of research continuing into atmosphere and it basically revolves around people's reaction to space in a building so it can be designed for just like it is in any other building so when you are designing a stadium you design with atmosphere in mind and the brief should state a capacity that is based around the normal expected crowd with some allowance for growth.  If a club has to use an existing stadium it has to understand that the venue will impinge on the attendances.  People don't like to congregate in empty spaces and they don't like to congregate in overcrowded spaces so if the venue is too small for the attendance then the driver is downwards attendance and if the venue is too large for the attendance then the driver is also downwards attendance.

The expected attendance is a matter of market response to the product so you can't use a stadium that is twice the capacity you need and expect that you will fill it no matter how much you market.  With the stage of development of the professional game that we are at it is much preferable that we have multiple clubs in a market than one club and attendances will obviously be smaller because of this.

Personally speaking, I would take 15k at Moore Park over 15k at Kogarah any day. 

There are a few things that need to be stated up front:-
It is not a club's responsibility to play at a venue where anyone who wants to attend can attend.
It is a club's responsibility to play in a venue that caters for all of its ticketed members, its sponsors and the away requirement specified by the league.
A club can play in a venue that allows growth in these allocations and allows occasional attendance if it wants to and can afford it.
Every venue has different compromises made in the design phase so all venues respond differently to population of the space.  For this reason the 60% capacity is simply a guideline for when a stadium is likely to come alive based on aural and visual factors.
No stadium is ever full.  94% capacity is generally considered full.

AAMI.  Capacity - 30k.  94% capacity - 28.2k  60% capacity - 18k.  Ideal for a club with attendances in the 18k - 28.2k range and an average of say 23k.

I don't have the figures for how many times Victory has exceeded 28.2k attendance but as their average attendance at Marvel is 25,956 I would expect the majority of their attendance there could be catered for by playing those games at AAMI and that their average attendance overall which is currently 21,287 would not change much and have little impact on their revenue.

AAMI is too big for City.

Bankwest.  Capacity - 30k.  94% capacity - 28.2k.  60% capacity -18k.  Ideal for a club with attendances in the 18k - 28.2k range and an average of say 23k.

Wanderers are currently averaging 17,976 there which is fractionally under 60% capacity but has had one game at 40% capacity that visually looked quite empty.    I expect that the venue will be a bit too big for Wanderers in the medium term but the detail that has gone into the design to enhance atmosphere should mean that the atmosphere is OK but not optimal at lower attendance levels.

etc., etc..

If you go through all of the venues you will find that most are "too big" for the clubs playing there.  The problem we have is that beggars can't be choosers.  In the case of 20k stadiums they just have to do.  It cost too much to build our own but for the large stadiums playing there is hurting the club and the game.  If a new club can't find a suitable sized venue for their projected attendance and has the funds to build their own venue then that isa great solution.

One of the problems we have had is the hoarding of memberships just to get tickets for the big games but not using them for other games.  The clubs need to set a quota for attendances that allows renewal.  If you don't meet the quota then get on the queue.

One thing that should be kept in mind is that currently the A-League is not reaching the market that is already a prime target so whether analysing existing stadiums or for new stadiums extensive market research needs to be done and strategies developed to optimise attendance.

Another one already? 

Just more incompetent scheduling from this new mob of no hopers...

Gyfox, which leagues around the world have met the criteria of venues for optimal attendances?

It was pretty much unanimous that WSW's venue was too small before it was rebuilt. How can it now be seen as too big just because the league is underperforming? Should they relocate and knock a few stands out?

As I posted above, the range between highest and lowest attendance for a single season is too vast. There are also other factors such as different ticket prices, memberships, which will make it impossible to consistently hit 60% capacity unless you are too far down the supply / demand curve. And if you lock too many people out how do you expect to grow?

The important factors for venue is financial viability, facilities, and accessibility. When taking size into account it needs to be built for the top 4-5 games. If WSW's venue couldnt host a derby or a final, then it was too small

Our game suffers because we arent in the pockets of local governments like the AFL. Their gold coast team had a venue built for them, our Queensland teams get shafted

People keep saying this, but they need to realise that this would require a major restructuring of our memberships, as once you account for 23k members (many of which having reserved seating) there's not a whole lot of seats left to sell, especially on the wings.

CCM v W Utd - 5,075

Probably spot on expectations.

And another conveniently "just over" figure at that.

Yikes

There crowds should go up next home game with them being in the top 6.

And that drives interest. EPL games are typically sold out before the season begins. That creates urgency. Urgency sells future tickets. On and on it goes.

It's not a problem, it's a feature.

Every stadium that is to be expanded and every new stadium goes through the same process to determine the capacity that is provided.  With football stadiums the conundrum is to provide capacity for everyone who wants to follow the club and to have the stadium full and buzzing.  The latter always takes the major position with club football stadiums because football atmosphere is unique to football and valued and protected by fans and the club needs those fans.

When it comes to multi purpose venues and shared venues there can be drivers to the design that may result in larger or smaller capacities and shape of the venue than would be ideal for a specific tenant.  The tenant can do nothing but accept those differences and the negative impact they have which can include smaller crowds than in a purpose built stadium of the same capacity.

All designs are a compromise.  I've never done a design that wasn't and I've never built a structure that those compromises can't be clearly seen.  Deciding which compromises will be acceptable to them is hard work for a client.  It's interesting to look at AAMI.  It was designed as a 20k stadium for Storm and the proposed Super Rugby club.  When Melbourne missed out on the Super Rugby expansion the Government put the project in the draw to collect mothballs.  When Victory surprisingly came along and was successful the Government pulled the plans out and was prepared to press the go button but Victory wanted more capacity, 40k in fact.  A compromise was reached, 30k seats but limited increase in other facets of the project like circulation, WC's, food and drink outlets, etc..  ie the quality of the fan experience was reduced but the atmosphere wasn't to achieve a compromise that could not handle the maximum known demand.  40k would have blown the design out of the water with a new design needed and possibly a new site also and finding significant extra funds to the tune of another $100m+.  It's normal that you can't do everything.

Bankwest is another example.  Wanderers was having capacity issues at Pirtek but it was partially self inflicted.  The Stadium Trust sort approval to commence the multi stage upgrade that would have taken capacity up to 27k eventually.  It would have been plenty for the known needs of Wanderers.  Stage 2 was already under way when the Government decided that it would fund a new venue as part of its stadiums strategy.  Although fans lobbied for 35k - 40k the Government settled on 30k.  As I said previously there was no justification from Wanderers attendances for a 30k stadium and for that reason it will be too big in the "medium term".  Should the A-League get its act together and market to everyone that has been involved in the game in Western Sydney instead of what others call its "traditional market" ie NSL/NPL linked fans then the 30k stadium may fit Wanderers needs perfectly.  In its design Bankwest has majored on creating atmosphere  over the back of house bells and whistles which will make it work at lower attendance levels.

The major requirement of a correctly located football stadium is atmosphere, it drives attendance and hence financial viability. Unless an owner has funds to burn they will not be sizing their venue around maximum demand.

Victory has an ongoing deal with Marvel.  If they didn't have Marvel they would use only AAMI and do just as well financially.  Sure the occasional fan would not be catered for as well but they don't have to be.  Clubs operate on annual sellouts for members in lots of places around the world.

There was a time when it looked like the Victory was going to push towards 35k+ crowds on a regular basis, but it hasn't panned out that way.
I imagine that why they originally made the deal with Docklands.

I harp on about how there is a massive disconnect between City and its fans. I think its ever increasing with Victory and its fans. 

MVC v Per- 14.5k
bri vs ccm- 10k
jets vs wsw- 9.5k
wun vs syd - 5k
adl vs wel - 8.5k

Adelaide should get 10k they are flying 

Looking for an aggregate of 50k in attendances this round, maybe slightly over.

Allianz was always rocking with anything over 14k imo.

Most of the issues relating to it seemed to come from those watching on TV.

I enjoy Kogarah and Leichardt but absolutely hate grass hills where it feels more like a picnic than a football match. Looking forward to moving back to Moore Park.

I dont mind Kogarah, it is pretty decent viewing from the stand but for the GA sections I haven't been overly enthused by the view and then the playing surface and amenities aren't great.

At Moore Park it is always easy to get good viewing, the atmosphere at the ground is always good, pre game is good and the surface is usually pretty good these days. Cant wait to get back there.

I get that a fully enclosed 20k boutique would be good but apart from Hindmarsh and Perth we just dont have many.

the away bay was shite. 1 bar. limited food options. shit viewing.  

A 25k stadium would be ideal for Sydney FC and to allow for a bit of growth etc a 30k stadium.  A 45k replacement is not a sensible idea.  Use the the additional $300 - $400m to do a proper job at ANZ and have it as the only large stadium for major events.  Its only Rugby that wants the 45k replacement at Moore Park.

MVC v Glory - 12k
Roar v CCM - 8k
Jets v WSW - 8k
 WU v SFC - 4k
AUFC v Nix - 7k