I think 32 teams and I don't think that would be hard to get teams willing to get there. TBH that is the only way top bring in a lot of VIC teams. Forget the divisions and forget if your team is not there, these are examples. I really have only added extra in NSW and VIc

NNSW 1 Jets
NSW 11 Apia-Leichhardt, Blacktown, CCM, Macarthur, Manly, Marconi, SFC, Sydney Olympic, Sydney United, Wollongong, WSW
VIC 9 Bentleigh, City, Green Gully, Hume, Melbourne Knights, SMFC, Team XI, Victory, Western United
QLD 4 Brisbane City, Gold Coast, Roar, Sunshine Coast
SA 2 Adelaide City, Adelaide United
WA 2 Freemantle Glory
NZ 1 Wellington
TAS 1 Hobart (Tas)
ACT 1 Canberra

Aim for 32 and then if you hit 28 that's fine. TBH I would aim for 16 A League plus a min of 12 NSD.

X2

No, these clubs want in? Then get it on!
Enough scratching and procrastinating.
Lets get the ball a-rollin!

Until a model is agreed and approved, we won’t know how many will be in a position to actually join. Those that have put their hands up so far have just expressed an interest to join and will be involved in the process of putting forward a proposal to the FFA.

Teams that choose to be in the new platforms going forward, know how to sustain themselves because they have all this time. They are not plastic entities. 
Get it on, would of been great if the likes of Warren, Murray and Cockerill could of witnesed this, FFA must stop allowing generations to pass away that are looking forward to seeing this level of progress, Finally! 

Probably something to do with his insistence for preserving the weird district system that only Sydney has instead of just having a normal integrated league like everywhere else in the country.

100% this, Sydney needs to move to a Victorian-style pyramid for its lower level clubs. The metropolitan area is not that big, and there's no reason why a club would be overly imposed by playing in e.g. something like State League 5 North-West rather than Blacktown district.

To be honest, my main problem with 14+14 is the season length. 39 rounds (triple round-robin) is too long, so either you have a double round-robin 26-round season, which is not long enough for a respectable professional league (particularly if the winter move means we won't have to worry about trying to squeeze the comp into the AFL/NRL off-season), or you have to have an uneven draw which is unpalatable for competitive reasons (the best that you could do would be to a 2.5 round-robin with 32 games + one bye for each club).

So long term, I think the best would either be 16 + 16 (30 rounds with double round-robin), or 12 + 12/12 (north/south), with 33 rounds from a triple round-robin. The list of clubs that a few posters have given shows that eventually having 30 or more clubs in a national pyramid is actually not that unrealistic, given the number of current NPL clubs who could feasibly make the step up over time. 

I like it, although I would probably replace Green Gully and Hume with Heidelberg and Avondale, and would also love to see an Auckland team to give Wellington a rival (at the expense of Bentleigh, I guess).

The problem is with people out of State choosing teams is they don’t understand the local landscape. 

NZ is a no go if this is going to work. Travel costs have to be contained, and it’s more likely WP would be removed then a new team for NZ.

Auckland is the largest remaining market, but ultimately everything from AFC pressure to costs would be raised as stumbling blocks to that. 


Triple round robin is unlikely to be viewed positively. 

That is why I put the caveat of ---- forget the divisions and forget if your team is not there, these are examples. It really is to show that 32 teams across Australia, particularly with NSW and Vic with strong representation is not that unachievable.

All will become clearer when the AAFC put together their model I guess. The clubs will determine what they expect, what’s on offer and whether they have the appetite to carry through with their interest once that is confirmed. 

I just did a quick search and I can't find any jurisdiction in Australia that has a "normal integrated league".  Every jurisdiction is structured differently which is quite appropriate because the needs of football in each jurisdiction is different depending on the size of the ecosystem, the stage of development etc..  They all seem to have a mix of tiered football involving P/R and stand alone leagues or silos.  According to wiki ,Victoria has an 8 tier structure at the top involving P/R and a system of silos below that.  FNSW has a similar structure with 4 tiers at the top involving P/R and 19 separate silos below that.  I think it would be worthwhile to have a thread where the structure in each jurisdiction is detailed and the pro's and con's for each is discussed because it seems that most on here talk from their local experience without understanding that it is quite different in other parts of Australia.

Just a quick comment on one of the differences between NSW and Victoria and for that matter the other states.  Victoria has the second largest football ecosystem in the country and has 60,000 registered players in total (75,000 registered participants).  In FNSW's territory there are 53,000  female registered players (22% of total registered players) and in total 57,000 registered all age players.  To provide games for the all age players alone involves structuring 140 separate 16 team competitions and in FNSW's structure that load is split between the silos and the State Association.  The numbers of players is something that no other jurisdiction in Australia has had to deal with yet and it does have a significant impact on how the game needs to be structured and a cookie cutter approach simply won't work.

I think we could have NSD and then (head) NPLs. Maybe eventually have a division in between with time either conference or national. 

Agree with what you say. I would like FFA to impose the NSD to state NPL model then hand over control to state feds to organize the comps as they will. As long as they are connected.

Have you seen the model of two separate pyramids with a common base that FIFA now uses?  It has the pinnacle of the larger pyramid as being amateur football and the pinnacle of the other narrower pyramid, that hives off to the side of the larger pyramid, as professional football.  Talented young players are transitioned from the larger pyramid to the narrower pyramid when they are discovered and continue on during their development in that separate pyramid.  I mention it because FIFA and the Confederations now have an emphasis on the growth of grassroots football which serves a different purpose to that of elite and professional football and isn't part of the development pathway.  While I believe the separate narrower pyramid in NSW could (should) be larger I believe the District Associations serve a real purpose in the areas that the Grassroots program talks about.  I personally wouldn't take anything off the District Associations and lump in on to the sate Fed or the FFA who both now and in their past iterations have been abject failures.

I certainly am not against a NSD but I may have some different views on how it is structured and how it should operate.  My concern is that in emphasising the NSD as the saviour of football we are missing the point that it is the whole of the football ecosystem that needs to be rebuilt.  Personally I don't think that the NSD will achieve much until the grassroots of football gets to and does its primary job of growing the game by introducing players to the game, educating them in it, giving them a fulfilling experience and turning them in to life time football people no matter whether they are good players that get moved into the development pathway or average bods like me who played park football all my playing life.  Further I don't think the NSD will achieve what people hope until that growing grassroots feeds more and more talented players into the development pathway so that there is competition for spots at all levels of the development pathway resulting in stronger teams at all levels up to and including the NSD and A-League.

A point Moore made in a podcast iirc is that in Qld clubs are placed into divisional the whole club. Which is ridiculous. Every age group needs to have pro rel from a certain age.

But grassroots football is fine, it's very strong.
It's at the other end that it's crap.

Grassroots isn't fine.  When you measure us against developed football countries our player numbers are poor with registered players being 2.2% of our population.  This is about a third to a quarter of what we could aim for when our football ecosystem is fully matured.  When you take NSW (3.8%) and ACT (4%) out of the calculation that number for the rest of the country drops to about 1.4%.

There is a critical need to expand the base of our game for three reasons.  Firstly to help grow football's recognition in our national sporting psyche (this is also a reason to get the development pathway, NSD and A-League sorted), secondly to increase the number of talented players entering the development pathway and populate an expanded elite system, and thirdly to increase the number of adults involved in our game whether that be as players, officials or fans.

Every year the AusSports survey puts our game miles and miles ahead of every other sport, daylight is second.
In this day and age where everyone as access to endless stuff that doesn't involve any form of physical activity, these numbers remain outstanding.

The Ausplay statistics show the point I am making which is that we have a 2 speed football ecosystem.  NSW/ACT with high participation and the rest of the country with much lower participation which compared to mature football countries overseas is quite low.  Fortunately State Federations like FV have acknowledged the situation and have targeted a 66% increase in registered player numbers by 2025.  We need the FFA and the other State Feds to get with the program now.

The problem I have with the structure in NSW is that between the NPL and the districts there is a gap that's similar to the one between A-League and NPL. You go straight from statewide NPL 4 to something like 16 different district comps. And there's no obvious pathway for a club outside the NPL to progress up the pyramid through sporting success: their only way into the NPL is to get a nod and a wink from Football NSW. It also means that regional NSW is largely excluded from higher level competition, when it's a hotbed of player development (viz. Rhyan Grant).

How I would structure it is you have two types of clubs: pyramid and grassroots-only. If a club wants to only function for kickabout purposes on a local level that's fine, but any bonafide club meeting minimum criteria that wants to play in the pyramid should be allowed to join. Then you come up with a pyramid structure of divisions enabling all these clubs to compete without things like travel being too onerous for the level they are on.

In NSW you could have something like this, with automatic pro-rel in all tiers, and play-offs between the zones determining the promoted clubs:
Tiers 1-4: NPL divisions (statewide)
Tier 5: Sydney Metro, Illawarra & South Coast, Central Coast, Western NSW (Riverina would be part of the ACT system)
Then for Sydney:
Tier 6: Sydney West, Sydney East
Tier 7: Sydney NW, Sydney SW, Sydney NE, Sydney SE
Tier 8: Districts:
NW: Nepean, Blacktown, Granville, Hills;
SW: Bankstown, SD, Macarthur;
NE: Gladesville-Hornsby, NS, Warringah;
SE: Canterbury, ES, St. George, Sutherland Shire

This is just an example of how it could work, depending on how many clubs want to actually join the state pyramid.

My impression of Qld is that while Lions are the biggest club they have little interest in progressing beyond NPL level: they didn't turn up to the AAFC meeting and unlike Bris City and Strikers didn't mount an A-League expansion bid. And given that Roar are descended from them, it would be a bit weird if they did, because then they could essentially end up competing against themselves. For Brisbane, I would therefore probably go with Brisbane Strikers, a new Ipswich based outfit (there was a bid there for the last A-League expansion), and Bris City or possibly Pen Power if there is call for a third team.

Gold Coast would be better off being represented by a broad-based club rather than one that only appeals to the Croatian community, and Gold Coast Utd looks like it has some ambition (given the whispers about an expansion bid going on at the moment).

Not sure what the deal is with Sunshine Coast FC and SC Wanderers. Given it's a region of 300k people, it should be able to support a NSD side if it's represented by a single club. But it would be a borderline case depending on how many clubs there are and how strong other candidates are.

Also shouldn't forget about NQ FC. Obviously they're now on hiatus but they could re-emerge for an NSD. The new stadium there is a hell of a lot better than the old one (although it is probably too big for second division football).

Happy to be corrected about any of this from people on the ground.

At the end of the day it comes down to money. 
I think if you look at the top 3 on the NPL Qld ladder you'll see who can afford it.

The first thing that needs to be done to provide more opportunity for male players in FNSW is to change the number of clubs in each of the 4 tiers of NPL to 16.  That is an immediate 30% increase in player numbers for each age from 12 years old to the senior teams getting a more professional level of training, coaching and playing.  Add a 16 club NSD and increase the A-League to 16 clubs and you have a much better elite pyramid for FNSW players to be a part of.

In FNSW there are about 240,000 registered players and only 12,000 of them are involved in the men's and women's NPL and state league set up.  That is a similar percentage to that which AAFC represents nationally.  In total there are 700 clubs in FNSW of which 74 are involved in the elite arm of the game.  Increasing the number of clubs in the elite pyramid by adding extra tiers etc is easy if there is a desire for it but the vast majority of clubs have never shown any interest in it.  Grassroots/community clubs tend to be proud of the role they play in competing locally, growing the game, giving opportunity for young players to be involved in and learn to love the game and provide continued opportunity for playing the game long into adult years.  FNSW is the only State Fed where the number of senior players is greater than the number of youth players which is testament to what the grassroots clubs provide.

I am not at all averse to expanding the elite tiers but the facilities required are quite different to those for a large grassroots/community club so the ability to move into the elite tiers isn't automatic.  Many of the elite clubs have an arm of the club that is involved in community football down to kids football.  I think of Camden Tigers as an example with over 100 teams including a dozen or more adult teams competing in Macarthur FA that also has an elite arm that competes in NPL4 but most clubs aren't geared up for it.

Providing equal opportunities for players in regional NSW is not easy.  Other than in the Hunter and the Illawarra playing numbers in most of the regional associations is relatively small - 1,000 to 3,000 players so the opportunity for development locally is quite limited.  As with most sports talented players have to move to the bigger urban areas.  I'm not sure what other solution there is.

It should be, but it won't, because FNSW wants registration money from those areas, but won't provide courses for coaches/referees

Orana - based around Orange wanted to be in the A-League and are still interested in the NSD. They would probably be interested in that area as well.