Grazor has answered the points about statistical significance. Your pass aggregates need to be doubled.

In recent times, the modern football era, only Aaron Mooy, and Tom Rogic, plus Matt McKay and Arzani for a few games, have played   for   the Old Firm in Scotland.

The Aussies who played there a decade ago, or decades ago, played in a different  football era - mostly before the metamorphosis of, and overhaul, of Australian coaching practices in coach education.

That is a significant difference. All the data points to the proposition that Scotland isn't great for developing international level quality players for the Socceroos having validity.

The question asked off forum, is which players have improved immeasurably in their performances for the Socceroos by playing in Scotland in recent times ?Also,  how  their improvement compares to other leagues like Eredivisie, Juniper league and Bundi 2?

A lot is made of Souttar ATM, because he is playing EPL  - which has a huge profile in Aus. However, Genreau, playing in the equally impressive French Championat, and Kisnorbo coaching there, hardly raises  any media column space or interviews by video.

I'm perplexed that Arnie advocates playing  in the SPL as much as he does for Aussies, apart from playing a lot more games than the AL. 

I'm also perplexed that he has appointed Luke Wilkshire as a Socceroo assistant coach? There are many more far more experienced, analytical and cerebrally capable trained assistant coaches like Phil Moss, Scott Miller, Jason Culina, Craig Foster,  Ross Aloisi, John Anastasiadis et al, available. 

So as to not be shown-up by them, perhaps❓

Sorry Grazor, I didnt mean to come across as dismissive of your stats... I agree they are interesting but from watching continental leagues compared to ours, yes even the SPL, the speed of pass and intent is a chalk and cheese comparison. Possession for possession's sake IS NOT any indication of quality despite many on here wishing it did.... 

Reading opinions here, one might believe that an emphasis on everything but possession would enhance the quality and therefore attractiveness of the game.  The spectacle, thus enhanced, would bring rewards in increased action at the turnstiles.

I'm guessing this is why Brisbane and Macarthur are desperately searching for larger grounds to deal with the demand for match day tickets?

No Concentric2 not trying to be facetious at all. 

Happy for you to continue your little make believe world of accreditation, workshops and misrepresented ex player statements but I suggest you re-read some of the philosophical axioms you espouse with so much "learned" impunity.....  Especially the Ajax and Clairfontaine definitions of effective possession, the reasoning behind coaching youth in 433 to establish better spatial awareness and the absolutely VITAL role first touch plays in possesion.

Your very precious Hans Berger (who btw Eccentric2, you basically quote verbatim to try and come across as knowledgeable) also states:

"Possession alone is not the keyIt is foolish to believe that all you need to do in order to win football matches is endup with a higher percentage of possession than your opponent. We are all awareof matches in which the winning team’s possession statistics are inferior to those oftheir beaten opponents.At Euro 2012, Russia and Holland averaged 56% of the possession in their threegames, but went home after the Group Stage. England, despite only 36%(25% during extra-time) against Italy, could have won the quarter-final shootout.Possession is not an end in itself: it is a means to an end. What is the point inkeeping possession in your own half for minutes on end, if there is no end product?The only statistic that matters is the scoreline!What appears to be the difference with the really successful teams is howpossession leads to scoring chances."

Yeah barely a peep about genreau, hrustic also was a starter for frankfurt but has been injured this season

Some have wondered about the difference in pressing in the a league v europe since it is hotter here.

it isn’t as bad as i thought. It is hard to get data but i found a journal article that found that aussies ran around 9.6km a game and the epl outfielders are 10.14 and laliga 10.5.

so we run 10 percent less per game.

even still i wonder if this makes it harder for npl players to step up to the summer a league and a league players to step up in europe

I disagree that the spl has faster passing. There is a difference in both attempted passes and completed passes. I have also watched osaussies in the spl for years and there is a world of difference between that and every other league as shows up in the stats

that is not to say that more passes=better quality, but it does support my thesis that vastly different numbers of passes per match means a bigger adjustment. The eredivisie and ereste divisie both look similar in style but are obviously different in quality.

it would be ok if the roos or the world cup had a low number of passes per game. However, the knockouts in the world cup, roos games and champions league games all have even more passes per game than the a league. So players going from the a league to the spl to international football have to change their game multiple times much more radically than you would in any other league in the world

I must admit to not having watched that much SPL apart from maybe a few Celtic matches these past 2 years.... 

where you guys getting passing stats? there's none on fbref for aleague - https://fbref.com/en/comps/65/A-League-Men-Stats

In terms of Yazbek, Daggers and Steinsness it would be interesting to see how they go and if they have improved their level.

I think Norway also revamped their curriculum just like us awhile ago and now we are seeing Norway develop more technically proficient players that can play a more possession based style of football where in the past Norway was known to play a physical long ball game especially during the 90s.

Again you are wrong. Jackson Irvine played one game.

Nothing about these stats says anything about possession. Our passes per minute in the wc was the similar to the a league (and much higher than thr spl) despite conceding the bulk of possession. So we played a similar style in the wc as we did in the a league

Arnold disagrees with you. He is far more qualified than you to form an opinion and unlike you he actually watches the SPL.

So you are saying Wilkshire is intellectually challenged? Again, I trust Arnold's judgement.

Yeah celtic rangers is deceptive because they play like any other league in the world

Fotmob has detailed stats on both leagues

sofa score less detailed but still useful as a cross check

https://www.fotmob.com/leagues/113/stats/season/16910/teams/accurate_pass_team/a-league-teams

Im baffled that Arnie continues to advocate playing in the SPL too, my guess is because they play alot more games and anytime players can play regularly it helps their chances in getting into the national team and he probably has seen it first hand with the physical development of some of the players too.

I wonder if that changes if the a-league season is more longer which he strongly suggested it should be doing.

Yeah it is a concern, tho to be fair i dont recall arnie encouraging players to play there. did he say something?

I think its in line with playing regular football whilst having more games than here, outside of that I cant remember what else he said about the Scottish league.

yeah the games per year critique is fair. We extend our season soon and the nst will make cup games more meaningful

And you don't think it's hard to watch now? The simple losses of possession when passing further than 10 metres is embarrassing in my opinion especially for what is touted as an elite competition. That's the reason for so many passes, as you put it, because they're to worried about giving the ball to the opposition that they go sideways and backwards so much more. The game here is, on the most part, but not always,  boring.

From Global Football Rankings:

This is a combination of all teams in Australian A-League and Scottish Premiership. This gives you an idea of how the teams would do against each other
Average: 30.27 - Stdev: 15.5

Team	SPI	League	Off SPI	Def SPI
1. Celtic	77.0	Premiership 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿	2.6	1.0
2. Rangers	69.6	Premiership 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿	2.2	1.1
3. Hibernian	41.2	Premiership 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿	1.3	1.5
4. Hearts	40.2	Premiership 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿	1.3	1.5
5. Aberdeen	39.2	Premiership 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿	1.2	1.5
6. Motherwell	37.0	Premiership 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿	1.2	1.6
7. St Mirren	36.4	Premiership 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿	1.0	1.4
8. Melbourne City	34.6	A-League 🇦🇺	1.3	1.9
9. Livingston	30.4	Premiership 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿	0.9	1.6
10. Dundee Utd	29.2	Premiership 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿	0.9	1.6
11. Ross County	28.8	Premiership 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿	0.8	1.5
12. St Johnstone	26.8	Premiership 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿	0.8	1.7
13. Sydney FC	26.0	A-League 🇦🇺	1.1	2.1
14. Central Coast Mariners	25.5	A-League 🇦🇺	1.1	2.1
15. Kilmarnock	24.6	Premiership 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿	0.8	1.8
16. Western Sydney FC	24.4	A-League 🇦🇺	0.9	1.9
17. Adelaide United	22.5	A-League 🇦🇺	1.1	2.3
18. Melbourne Victory	21.8	A-League 🇦🇺	0.8	1.9
19. Wellington Phoenix	18.4	A-League 🇦🇺	0.9	2.3
20. Newcastle Jets	15.7	A-League 🇦🇺	0.7	2.2
21. Brisbane Roar	15.6	A-League 🇦🇺	0.6	2.1
22. Western United	15.6	A-League 🇦🇺	0.7	2.3
23. Perth Glory	14.0	A-League 🇦🇺	0.6	2.2
24. Macarthur FC	11.9	A-League 🇦🇺	0.6	2.6

well just based off stats we pressing and winning ball more in final 3rd than EPL.

https://www.fotmob.com/leagues/113/stats/season/16910/teams/poss_won_att_3rd_team
https://www.fotmob.com/leagues/47/stats/season/17664/teams/poss_won_att_3rd_team

Can't be right surely? well jets and city are.

if anyone good with data analytics you could export it and make it nice and readable with graphs comparing etc.

https://jaseziv.github.io/worldfootballR/articles/extract-fotmob-data.html

Interesting, OPTA paints a rosier picture

Melbourne city	74.1
Adelaide United	71.6
CCM	70.6
Hearts	69.5
Aberdeen	69.2
WSW	68.8
St Miren	68.5
WP	68.2
MV	68.2
Hibernian	68
SFC	67.8
WU	67.8
Motherwell	66.9
BR	66.8
Mac	65.6
NUJ	65.5
Livingstone	66.5
Kilmarnock	65.9
DU	66.5
PG	65.1
ST J	65
Ross	64.5

I personally think that it is very difficult to compare the quality of leagues, personal bias is going to fill the gap where there is a lack of objective ways of evaluating 

That is why I focused on style. Outside of the SPL, League 1 and League 2, most leagues are going to match the a league for style so it is a good idea to find a club that is your level from amongst them imo

probably because we are better at pressing than playing out the back. 
I'd love to see any graphs you produce!

Possession  has a defensive  purpose  as  well as an offensive  purpose.

If two CBs are passing the ball to each other, and the opposition is sitting back in a Half Press, the two CBs are probing, waiting for a  teammate further afield to open a viable passing lane.

Of  course most teams want to gain  territory and possess the ball as well.

If a team is sitting back in a Half Press, it is because they respect the technical quality of  the players on the ball in defence. If they didn't,  they would try and close down the  space  and cause a turnover.

There is no  link to an article by Han Berger, or Clarefontaine, but I'll take your  word for it.

I'd surmise this paragraph has been   extrapolated from a broader, bigger article. Berger is talking about a number of games where the teams with higher possession stats  have lost the game. It happens sometimes.  The phrase coined by Arsene Wenger is 'sterile domination', if a team has lot of possession, but it is in the defensive half.

At the same time Berger has been the architect of establishing a possession game in Australia. He treasures it. The  broader context of the article would have had been some reference to gaining territory in the  attacking half/attacking third  of the pitch being important too, ultimately ending up in the penalty box, and being a  significant factor to winning games.

In one of Berger's presentations in the  National Conference that went around all states in Aus somewhere between 2011 and 2013, he quoted a stat  from the UEFA Technical Department, that teams who have the majority of possession in the attacking third, score 28% more goals. This is evidence based research recorded over time by the UEFA Technical Dept.

At the same conference Berger had Alistair Edwards (his FFA assistant Tech Dir), Darren Davies (  then MV Youth  Coach , later Bris Roar senior coach), and FFA state branch  staff coaches Mike Edwards, Kurt Reynolds and Dean May,  deliver more presentations on possession football to augment his own. Dean even had NTC players on the pitch demonstrating. Then Berger took more on ground sessions with NTC players  to demonstrate a lot of  exercises to develop passing football.  Plus Ange Postecoglou was recruited by FFA to deliver more on ground sessions on the same topic late in the same year . 

Berger oversaw all of this. Australia has derived enormous benefit too.

A few on here have also commented on speed of passes. It varies who and where a pass is made as to the speed and weight  of it - depending on the teammate and their body position at the time of them opening the passing lane and showing to the ball carrier.

In terms of passing speed, handling speed is paramount  in any team playing a possession game. When Rob Baan brought KNVB staff coaches Ad Deksion and Arie Schans to Australia to train up all the then ALM youth coaches, they were appalled at how hard Muscat, T Vidmar, A Vidmar,  Tony Popovic,  Steve Corica, Carl Veart, Alex Tobin, et al, had to work to retain possession given most were former Socceroos. This occurred in training ground exercises at the Institute of Sport.

Amongst a range of weaknesses identified in Aussie players, having to work too hard to maintain possession was considered to be a  problem. Hence, a curriculum was designed to improve that  inherent weakness, amongst other weaknesses.   

Handling speed is the amount time taken to receive  and pass the ball  on to a teammate. In Ralph Honigsten's Das Reboot, analysing the German overhaul of their coaching methodology and NC, they even developed specific machines to improve Germans' handling  speed.

The team with the average lowest handling speed in the world  was Spain, with an average of 1.6 secs to receive and pass the ball on. Germany were one of the next best, recording 1.8 secs, but they desperately strived to emulate Spain to  maintain possession  more efficiently and easily. This    equates to less effort in off the ball movement to maintain possession, the faster players' handling speed is.

Also, at the same conference, the FIFA Technical department, showed that the teams with less possession, had to run more distance than the teams who had more possession.  To play successive games where a team runs more than the opponents, burns teams out earlier in the tournament. All the more reason to value possession.

I haven't watched Scottish football for a few years. When I last did, I was amazed that often defenders or keepers just hoofed high balls out defence  when under minimal  time and space pressure.  

Conversely, in ALM, J League, Championat, La Liga, Bundesliga, Eredevisie, or the Portuguese league, players would  usually pass it to another defender or midfielder showing for the ball in these positions and build up more slowly, or a least  try and launch a more controlled accelerated attack. Keepers tend to roll the ball out to  players too, rather than hoofing it like the Scottish keepers.

With respect,  that is a  bit pedantic, Lurker.

Irvine, Arzani and McKay only played a handful of games to be considered significant.

Mooy and Rogic have played a lot of games in recent years.  What they have, or haven't done, is more significant within the context of Scotland as a benefical football destination.

You moved the goal posts. You clearly said in recent times…..only have played for the old Firm. You didn’t qualify your statement with the word significant.

By the way there hasn’t been an old firm since 2012. Just saying.

Jacynta G is a regular starter who has played a significant number of games.