If possible, and the lord knows its asking a lot, but can we just this once not all become experts in the US sporting environment and turn the whole thing into a P & R V Franchise Model.. 
 
Further I am not suggesting we copy their model, I strongly suggest we copy their fan focused decision making models and how they view their sporting environment.

 I hear what a failure and joke MLS is, all of the time.

 The buy in for expansion into MLS in 2003, exactly 20 years ago, was US $10 million.

 Renting at a local college gridiron stadium, zero business plans in place and of course moving to continue as renters at a local college gridiron stadiums.

 San Diego to become the 30th team in the MLS.

 20 years on, paying US $500 million for the buy in now., and brining rights to a 35K stadium….

 Yep, MLS total failure

 In the 30-team competition, there is 23 Football specific stadiums, plus two more teams building their own thus 25 soon, and with one team building a new stadium to go from an 18K stadium [which they are giving to their women’s team] to a 26K stadium.

 Over all crowds around 90 capacity attendance across the league… with revenues expected to exceed 2.3 billion in a 29-team league [BTW the 2.3 billion does not include the 500 million buy in]

 As I said total failure of a league, we have nothing to learn from them…

If interested this is a vid of their stadiums, with Mami the first one showed being rebuild elsewhere to a new 26K stadium and the 18K stadium given to the womens team, New York FC & New England operating out of non-Football stadiums are in the process of constructing their own stadiums, 26K and 21K. Meaning of the 30 teams 25 will have Football specific stadiums, of the remaining 5 teams, 3 teams draw huge crowds to the non Football specific stadiums. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRAM5_a5gC0&ab_channel=TFCStadiums      

    

In my opinion, after the 2026 world cup, the MLS will be the 5th best football competition in the world, in terms of quality of play and overall structure of the league.

Premier League
La Liga
Bundesliga
Serie A
MLS

Will be the order

Yes there are things that they can improve, but the overall method of building new stadia, and a good amount of time for cities to grow their fan bases before entering the league, is a sound strategy. It is the furthest thing from a failure. 

When all said and done, money talks. This has given the MLS a tremendous boost as they have the resources that we can only dream of. It seems with the appointment of Baumjohn that Sydney have finally woken up that we are a selling league. It has taken them quite a while. On the other hand, the MLS have always been a destination league, albeit some have called it (disparagingly) a retirement league. Even Ligue 1 is only an interim step to one of the other big 4 European Leagues. 
So, I agree with the above poster that the MLS will become the fifth biggest league, and the timing also seems right.
Hopefully we can develop the NPLA (called the NST for now) into a broad based league with P&R down the pyramid.

Just on the quality of the MLS, this is a vid on the best April goals... across 52 games...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbp2_Rzr5vM&t=8s&ab_channel=MajorLeagueSoccer
 

We'd wet ourselves if we had something like that in Australia. Clearly what they're doing is working.

It could only be improved by P & R but they're American and that's not their go.

You'd be a halfwit if you thought we couldn't learn from them. (Note I did not say copy.)

Interesting goal of the MLS is that I think its the 2030 world cup... they want the MLS to have the most players from any league playing in the WC... 

Will it be US players or doesn't it matter?

Mid thats some tremendous dollars thrown around in the MLS... The investors must be chuffed on their return on investment. Does any of that money filter down into lower level clubs, coaching, rep teams etc? With a population base of 330 MILLION more than Croatia for example, have they achieved any national team success or developed players to the point where they are playing in the most glamorous league in the world? Apart from the CONCACAF where its basically them, Canada and Mexico, have they ever won anything?

I understand your being impressed by the dollar$ but I dont understand the definition of "successful" With clubs in the US being worth 500 million dollars do you ever wonder why the best players in the world are NOT going to the MLS until they are years past their prime at best?

APL is certainly trying Muz. Can't blame Danny and Co if they cant find anyone to part with 25mill for a license :)

All over... say 48 teams by 23 players is 1, 104 players....

Make this bit up but lets say of the 1, 104 , 70 players play in the EPL.... 50 players in Spain etc... their goal is to be the league with the most players at the WC...  they further believe when they are the league with the most players at the WC it will have lead and will lead to acceptance of the MLS world over and revenue in broadcast rights...

Whether all that pans out who knows... but its an interesting goal...

And a bloody good one too, I agree. But it does NOTHING for the National football team or young US players....  I dont think MLS is joke mate (BTW) it is just not a league for the people or the fans or the clubs or the players... It is an entertainment product.... Thats great if you are a "consumer" of sport and just want a shiny thing to spend your time but I suspect many of us here AND in the States want more than that. 

I don't want to get into a debate pertaining to the success or otherwise of the US national team and players they get.... up until maybe 15 years ago the US cared SFA about Football... 

What I can say is they have been building and building and building and all the issues people highlight i.e. the retirement league etc they are fully aware of.... the starting point for Football in the US is totally different to most of the rest of the world... Football was largely mocked, the negativity in the US made the AFL Australian look like they supported Football... their was near zero money and and at one stage one owner owned 7 of the then 10 team competition...

The MLS or their clubs do put a lot of funding into their local areas... MLS roughly 5 to 7 years ago went looking for players from South America and Mexico with nowhere near as many retirement type players anymore...

I do find it hard to make judgements about fans of MLS clubs visa vee European clubs as somehow they are lessor fans.... 

The MLS don't have P & R, and don't plan to they are very open about that and they are very open about why ... 

I have never suggested we follow their model, however their decision making models and structures we could learn a lot from... 

Just on fans this is a 30 second vid about Atlanta fans at a match 72K at the game and over the last say I think 5 or 6 years not counting the covid years average about 50K... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSgvF8Q7PSc&ab_channel=AlexMcGriff

Whether we like it or not its a rapidly improving competition from a technical aspect ... starting to get some big revenues and expected to pass baseball sometime between 2030 & 2033 to become the number three code in the US... 

To suggest DT and APL are in this same solar system as the MLS management is wrong... but that we can't learn from the MLS is simply wrong...

They are working on it... you can't ignore from the late 1800's thu to roughly 2012 or later Football was mocked and kids did not wanta play in large part... its the MLS fan base thats changing that... 

Even now the MLS is not well followed at a national level... its kinda like each team has a very loyal fan base that support that team.... plans are in place to change that I can highlight some if you like... however everything can't be changed overnight....
 

Mate no disrespect intended but it just does not interest me... I get that the MLS "teams" have strategies on how to market themselves to attract more revenue but I am more interested in their actual football playing.... Im told old and too set in my ways to give any kind of care to what colour the streamers are in the craft beer tent or how many people have been issued the song sheet for the choreographed sing along or whatever...  Football may have been mocked (like here) for a long time but there are thousands of clubs in the US who DO NOT BENEFIT ONE LITTLE BIT, from the MLS riches NOR WILL THEY EVER .... We are almost talking about two very different sports here mate.... 

Sorry but couldnt let this one slide Mid....  What measurable rise in technical "aspect" have you noticed... Revenues, sure whatever, but unless their cubs can consistently beat other clubs from 99% of other clubs around the world who couldn't even DREAM of 500 million revenue, how can you claim that? Being worth 500 million SHOULD see an MLS team thump pretty much every club in Italy, Spain (outside the top two) and Germany in a competitive match... Do you see this as viable? I mean I havent watched much of it but what I did see is pretty dire.

Sure their stadiums, uniforms, tailgate parties in the carpark and safe smoke are more consumer friendly and they have a selection of craft beers on tap but thats just the book cover, not the words inside :)

American $$$'s is very easy to gain success with its pop and football has kept growing there with the gluteny of mex/hispanic migrants as well in the modern times.
Helps when you can keep throwing $$$$'s getting big name players ex Europe season in season out.
Not just one but a few at times be it a top liner or one or 2 just below.
Who wouldn't look to following a club.
Look at this top10 for starters.
https://khelnow.com/football/top-10-footballers-who-joined-mls-from-elite-european-leagues
They also have on or over 192 OS player slots across those Clubs last search.

Sure I agree they are good at marketing, look at any of their other codes, SM, every cable channel etcetc.....I watch alot of motorsport, every code puts on a "show", even the american F1 owners are trying to change the F1 DNA to suit the US appetite.

Only wish like they they work as one, no matter no P/R they the owners all get in work with the governing bodies and want to compete and succeed for they share the spoils but that pot (not meaning figure wise) is no diff to revenue raised by the big 5 euro leagues.
Again due to governing bodies and working to the model, ours is pok a poop.

I realise it's not your go and I get your objections but do you think the NFL, the NBA and MLB aren't 'proper' either because they're franchised teams? The NFL and the NBA are literally 2 of the most popular sports in the world. 

Are those fans not 'genuine' and/or are they supporting a diminished 'product' according to you?

Is the MLS or can you compare the MLS to the EPL or other top leagues in terms of quality...No

Do players choose the MLS over top European clubs ... mostly No but sometimes yes today... many South American and Mexican players are choosing MLS over Europe as its close to home... and pays well... also some European players are as well i mean young European players... 

Has the overall quality of the MLS improved over the last 20 years... yes and by a long way...

With dead set beyond poor media deals, constant media negativity from those outside Football in the US, constant negativity from many Football people....20 years ago owning no major stadiums and very little money in US Football.... HOW the F are they where they are today... 

No one is suggesting and I am not that its a model we should follow... but to ignore the decision making processes.... principally centred on a fan focused decision making model is unwise....

How do I rate success... over 10 million thu the gates last season for the regular 34 round competition, signed 300 million in media deals up from 65 million... 23 now and soon 25 Football specific stadiums... future plans in place to grow the competition with further expansion teams... 20 years ago Football in the US was considered a joke a nothing sport and the two sports for the common people were baseball and basketball... 

So to answer your question most countries in the world have treated Football better and with more respect... having said all that and considering the internal barriers that the MLS has had,  the revenues  and stadium ownership it has from where it was IMO is a real achievement... 


 

How can it not? If they have 48 teams or whatever it is and say 15 of them are young American kids that's a talent pool of 720 players that are in a professional setup getting match hardened in an ever improving competition.

Again I realise it's a closed league but if the MLS keeps improving and the money continues to be ploughed into it it will drag more and more talent in and be an even better comp for young Americans.

I mean you can look at the EPL and ask what's the EPL done in the last 50 years to create a better English football team. They've won nothing and appear unlikely to ever do so. (With a few recent exceptions.) Regularly teams in the EPL are fielded with either none or just the one English player. Talk about development all you want but the very real lack of English players in the EPL is a problem for the FA and is something that's been discussed at length.

Years ago I think the Italian league only allowed 5 foreigners. Is that still the case? Is that something the EPL should/could do?

Or fuck it who cares anyway if they're players from every corner of the globe and the team with the deepest pockets win. Who cares how many English blokes play. The farce that is the La Liga and the SFL where only 2 teams are ever in it is something I don't want to see replicated in Australia.   

It must have been something back in the day 60 or 70 years ago when the players in the team worked in the local area. You might have seen them around the streets or they worked on your car or served you in a shop and then on the weekend you went and saw those same players from your town or area play another team from another town. Not any more.

It's like that Seinfeld clip. These days you're literally cheering for the clothes the players are wearing. None of them, or next to none, have a local affiliation with the area.

.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we-L7w1K5Zo

'Nostalgia's not what it used to be.'

Muz

A large issue until hhhmmmm eeerrrrr around 2003 /4 or 5, Football in the US was nothing, little history considered a joke....

MLS is a modern creation in an old and established sport.... this has resulted in Football in the US being established over the last say 18 to 20 years... and it has had to use the tools it had... 

Recently due to work I had to do research into the MLS for a client, and I went in with all the bias ... I came out with massive respect and then kept digging....

Its near impossible or was near impossible for Football to establish itself in the US in a more traditional model structure.... 

Its the fastest growing sport in the US and by a long way the most popular with people under 30 and especially people under 18.... 

Its not that Football did not exist in the US .... things like community facilities were few... basketball courts everywhere but few Football fields .... 

The mistake if thats the correct word is expecting US Football to follow FIFA models established from say the late 1800's thu to the mid 1900's .... 

I get all that ( I've read all your recent stuff on the MLS) my post was about what you (not you specifically) consider a 'proper football' system. I mean let's be honest unless a fuck-off wealthy arab comes and buys your club in the EPL you've got no chance.

Is that good? 

I guess it depends what we want. Looking at fotmob player rankings, almost every top player in the usa is a foreigner whereas almost every top player in oz is australian. So it does seem to have England's issues on steroids. I would guess that if the mls had no foreigners and the a league got rid of theirs we would be better by some margin

My priorities would be
1) A strong national team
2) having a QLD team that feels like a QLD team (unlike roar) and I care about them winning or losing
3) having australian teams make the club world cup

the MLS model would help the 3rd but hinder the first two I feel

'Every top player in Oz is Australian' is skewed by the fact we can't afford any decent foreigners and the reduced salary cap. Not that I think that that is a bad thing. I'd rather see the A League full of young talent than some pay check for a blow in.

Mid
i get your pov and info believe me.
Kudos to them might I add having worked hard against codes long before above mls.
If the APL can do a job similar in the many years ahead good luck to them I’ll stand and clap but that’s along way ahead.
One very big point is it seems we are not as similar to the American ways even though we follow in other traits.
Our mix of migrants and influence is two fold.
A lot more Anglo originally followed by Europeans Then Asians.
What is their football influence compared to USA - euro leagues.
Where do most their players go ? Euro or other Asian neighbours.
What do they follow ? Euro and Asian leagues.
US is an entirely diff animal as we all know and the way going about sport.
It works for them because it started as such a long long time ago, thats their DNA and ok IF the game here can gain by following their fan models great love to see my eyes are wide open.........but it needs very uniformed and diligent directive by the apl and clubs and win over fans.
I just don't think we aussies being we're such a mixed up bunch and divided will follow in hoards for a long long time, have they got that time.

LFC

Please understand my new respect for the MLS is twofold ... first against a lot of barriers from both people outside football and inside football their success is astounding .... second the decision making process which IMO is exceptional in a number of ways, detailed and researched planning, communication to and with the fans, constant internal assessment of teams, goal setting, .... 

The decision making, is what impressive me the most... first they set long term goals and systems eg to play 34 rounds even with only 10 teams... second is decisions are made with a fan focused approach eg the moving the grand final would never have been made ..... its this decision making process we should copy... 

Just to share a little in the US Football market the ratings are broadly, Mexican league 32%, EPL 21%, MLS 19%.... the reasons are many why the Mexican league so out rates the MLS... respect as no P & R, language, because games between MLS and Mexican sides at the top level have up until last year always be won by the top Mexican team....

To address this issue [re MLS and Mexico] and with increased funding from the new media deal all MLS matches will be broadcast in English, Spanish and French, .....  second and this has taken years of negotiation roughly half thu the MLS season all the MLS teams and all the Mexican teams will hold a world cup style competition to determine the best team  it will take just over a month... 

The above is but one example of detailed planning and how to deal with a long term issue and involve fans and be fan focused..

I remember looking up the US  team in Qatar.

They had a healthy number of players plying their trade in the MLS.

I think I anointed the MLS as one of the surprisingly better leagues for developing players for WC football  across the globe, whilst  a few European countries have more players playing in big leagues, who have struggled playing international  outside Europe. 

I think it was a case of MLS players playing better outside their home continent, than the likes of Belgium and Denmark. Also, in a league like Scotland, they don't even  qualify for WCs.

I think I suggested that along with Japan,  S Korea and Mexico, the US national team players played well in foreign conditions in big tournaments compared to some reputedly better European leagues.

Previously on forums, others who watch MLS, have claimed the  large number of Latin players who play in the  MLS have a lot of skill.

i have a healthy respect for the MLS.

Very interesting post, Midfielder.

Thanks for posting it.

I wonder if being next to the Mexican league, which is a pretty decent league, and a constant WC rival, that it has helped the MLS be competitive,  from always looking over the border?

Dec they have improved their skill and  for others who think the MLS lacks improvement in technical skills ... both the above vid on best goals in April to a vid on the best dribbles in April... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7Z93-lVKeo&ab_channel=MajorLeagueSoccer

Personally I don't rate the MLS atm.

Not just from a fans perspective Muz, not this time at least :)  The Yanks are a different beast altogether. NFL is a strange one. Ofcourse its proper but basically a cultural entertainment rather than an actual competitive sport. Its morphed into a 10 hour tailgating party and add break extravaganza --- and I actually watch a little of it, the actual "sport" side of it and the tactics are fascinating. If it was played anywhere else in the world who is to say the NFL teams would be competitive against them?  A hybrid match between AFL and NFL and NRL would certainly be interesting eh? 

As for basketball, well the Euroleague seems to be the better tactically even though the NBL is the razzamataz league with all the best players... Internationally the rest of the world gives the ol US a fair shake in a sport they pretty much invented for themselves.... 

In summary the MLS ( as a money generator) is absolutely top of the tree and will probably surpass every other league in the world in revenue and attendance (apart from NFL and NBA) but ..... so what???? If that is the definition of success (money and "popularity") then I give up, Ill just tell me kids to go and become influencers and only fans "content creators"