Mid, don't take me totally wrong being against everything you say about the MLS's growth for sure its for all to see, I just like to provide my input to some points you bring up and its outlook by other countries around the football world from reading alot and having colleagues in alot of countries incl Mexico for eg.

Your P1, yes as mentioned it is growing in the US, glad the game is against all those other meh sports they are into and not surprising with the $$$ resource available.
Lets wait and see if and when they get to the level of being a Top 10 league......
What ranks being a Top 10 league ? $$$ revenue, x amount of players moving to other Top 5 leagues ?
How do you rank a US Club with no involvement in CL or Europa ? can't be by the WCup.
Where will they be judged to be a Top 10 candidate ?
All of this will take sometime before any global result will be achieved no.

P2, thats the M$ question here, when will the FA let alone APL listen to their fan base ? there have been countless surveys done in the past and I presume present ???
Their trouble is is not being "transparent" since Adam was a kid, Lowys AL Clubs used to have fan forums, nothing much occured out those might I add for out of interest I did attend 2 at SFC long ago.
What has come out of it - ziltch, what has the new FA done ? putting the NST aside where is the reach felt down to grass roots and the countless registrated players for fan feedback.
Its obvious alot needs to change to get any positive movement to occur be it picking out some of the suitable MLS fan directive stratergies that could work well here.
IMO we need is a tuff true football loving adminstrater who sticks his or her neck out smashing down alot of the politcal barriers and in turn gain connect top to bottom.
Bring us together once and for all, we have too many people for and against P/R due to politcs and noise costs, we can't do this can't do that you see it here.
Don't promise the world of football will perfect here with bubble and squeak just get supporters together, State and Clubs aligned with one main direction amaongst other objectives for starters.......
Expectations are too high and set OTT by AL originally, sure going Pro was very much needed and I appreciate that but huge stadiums, etcetc gtfo we're a bloody minnow with 27M people where most are on the East Coast and why are we trying to match what other 3 main codes are financially. Its dreaming.
Football is simple, starts from the ground, its about the contest on the pitch not about being at the G or SFS and all these other huge joints.
Where is the basic logic about all this in the first place looking at it from a football perspective not a business.
The basic football at smaller venues packed, brings in sponsers at more managable price points.
We're trying to play in the huge corporate game landscape but don't have the supporters to feed it that are divided, we are not USA with its copious amounts of population and countries close enough beneath to feed from.

By the way re the MLS and broadcasting in varying languages, yes another good move and should do due to as mentioned the size of target and interest, mostly for the hispanics/Mex's Living in the USA.
I tell you right now having done business in Mex for a number of years and frequent 2/3 times a year, they the locals down there dislike the mericans with a passion.
I'll be there again in Oct even though I have weekly conference calls but I'll ask many who I know follow their football will they be watching the MLS ? I highy doubt it.

LFC

Good question pertaining to what makes a top ten league.

MLS has its own for better or worst measuring stick... they want to by the 2030 WC to have the most players in the WC of any competition playing in MLS.... last WC I think 36 players and if you exclude US players thats 13 non USA players in there league... 

Question about Mexican fans... they mostly want Mexican's leaving in the USA to start watching... at the moment the Mexican league has a tad over 50% greater TV ratings than the MLS. inside the US.. the big effect will be Annual Club Cup competition between all MLS & Legia MX clubs.

Look, I am not trying to preach the virtues of the MLS... I am simply saying from deaths door they worked their way out and today are very successful.... I don't like their set up however you can't stick your head in the sand and ignore it .... thats foolish also.... 

As an aside six months ago I felt the same about the MLS.... 

India is a useless country at almost every sport bar cricket...not really an example

China actually has a 'fairly successful' league - it just has not resulted in a 'strong national team' - they have 2 decent tiers the 1st division and 2nd division has 16 teams each

the CSL averages around the same amount of people as the french Ligue 1 23k spectators [ France has arguably the 5th best league in the world] 

Russia have around 200m people [pre-war] had clubs that were competitive in the Europa league even UCL but their national team was 'never spectacular' but their league has always been fairly solid - Turkey is another example 

Having a successful league and having a successful national team - do not always 'go hand in hand' 

Croatia has an 'average' league with average a few 1000 spectators but sell the best players for big transfers - there national team has been in the top 10 in the world for almost a decade now. 

@ Mid
A Top league to this day is looked over by its overall competing in the CL/Europa to many in the game.
Having your own measuring stick is typical USA, they class themselves world champs in baseball over many years for eg.
MLS will do the same as any of their other sports.
It will be successful in their own right but not sure how they will gain ranking without competing against Euro Clubs.
The Club WC possibly they will be entered in the future ? who knows.

Here's some info mentioning 36 players at the WC for matter of interest and discussion.
Qatar WC by League, MLS below, 36 yes, quantity is one thing QUALITY is main thing missing there, minnows Qatar,Saudi and LigaMX right on their heals.
Importantly combine EPL and EFL totals 162 players, Quality. Hence why old/er players like Zlatan and more so Messi coming up carves em up to this day.
You only had to watch the Roos game last night to see the class difference and Messi's opening goal build up in record time.
MLS its all about the $$$$'s thats the merican way - yep it will grow, it may get up to 200 players in future WC's but will it get the respect ? I think I'll be 6' under by then.
Look where the bulk below play. Kudos to them in any case..

Club	Number of players	Name of players
Charlotte FC	1	Karol Swiderski (Poland)
Chicago Fire	1	Xherdan Shaqiri (Switzerland)
FC Cincinnati	1	Ronald Matarrita (Costa Rica)
Colorado Rapids	1	Daniel Chacon (Costa Rica)
Columbus Crew	1	Milos Degenek (Australia)
FC Dallas	1	Jesus Ferreira (USA)
Houston Dynamo	1	Hector Herrera (Mexico)
LAFC	6	Jose Cifuentes (Ecuador) Sebastian Mendez (Ecuador) Diego Palacios (Ecuador) Kellyn Acosta (USA) Gareth Bale (Wales)
LA Galaxy	1	Martin Caceres (Uruguay)
Inter Miami	1	DeAndre Yedlin (USA)
Minnesota United	1	Dayne St Clair (Canada)
CF Montreal	6	Alistair Johnston (Canada) Ismael Kone (Canada) Kamal Miller (Canada) James Pantemis (Canada) Samuel Piette (Canada) Joel Waterman (Canada)
Nashville SC	1	Shaq Moore (USA) Walker Zimmerman (USA)
New York City	1	Sean Johnson (USA)
New York Red Bulls	1	Aaron Long (USA)
Orlando City	1	Facundo Torres (Uruguay)
Philadelphia Union	1	Olivier Mbaizo (Cameroon)
Real Salt Lake	1	Bryan Oviedo (Costa Rica)
Seattle Sounders	4	Nouhou Tolo (Cameroon) Xavier Arreaga (Ecuador) Jordan Morris (USA) Cristian Roldan (USA)
Toronto FC	3	Mark-Anthony Kaye (Canada) Richie Laryea (Canada) Jonathan Osorio (Canada)
Vancouver Whitecaps	1	Lucas Cavallini (Canada)

By Leagues Qatar

League	Country	Number of players
Premier League	England	136
La Liga	Spain	83
Bundesliga	Germany	75
Serie A	Italy	68
Ligue 1	France	54
MLS	USA	36
Saudi Pro League	Saudi Arabia	33
Qatar Stars League	Qatar	33
EFL Championship	England	26
Liga MX	Mexico	23

Just addressing the population figure mate, dont disagree with you.

The MLS is a massive success. There were so many opportunities to learn from the MLS, but we've failed, and while sure they have a higher population base the MLS had one thing we haven't' had. Fully committed super rich club owners. Owners building stadia, copping the losses on the chin in the early seasons. Multiple clubs being owned by individuals for the short term growth of the league. 
The access to Mexican and South American players helps them a lot too. We could try get more access to Asia but we missed our opportunity to do so, and as one of the poorest paying leagues in Asia we now have very little appeal to many top young Asian players. 

bang on and thats it clear main path of gaining success - $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ and leveraging the immigrants.
Funny we had one of the 2 in bundles re migrants and then a rich owner who wanted them out.
What might have been whereas the MLS knows its growth will be huge gaining migrants following.

Your right, for a promising chinese/thai or name any other close asian neighbour who as a promising good player not like being based in Oz to further the career, not to be.

* with taxpayers money

Just like almost every sporting stadium in Australia.

Some were, some weren't....

https://www.wcpo.com/news/government/local-politics/heres-how-much-other-cities-have-paid-to-help-build-mls-soccer-stadiums

What's interesting is most teams in the MLS have built stadia of aroud 18-15k capacity for $150-200 million. Yet stadia in Australia costs 2-3 times as much. 

4 out of 19 privately built.  Dunno how many more since.

christ I had to search back 6 pages for this Mid.....

For you - some goss from fans there funnily quoting rivalries are manufactured lol, too right but they coming from a humble franchise.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/aug/03/lionel-messi-inter-miami-orlando-city-leagues-cup-soccer-mls?CMP=oth_b-aplnews_d-3

“They’ve been given everything, and speaking as an Orlando fan, we had to work our way through the lower divisions." HAHAHAHAHA GTF outta here you stupid seppo. HAHAHAAHAH that is the funniest franchise shit I have ever read mate, thanks for sharing. hahahahahahaha 

LOL, worked their way through with a big cheque

Orlando City Soccer Club was an American professional soccer team based in Orlando, Florida, United States, that was the precursor to Orlando City SC.

The team played in USL Pro, the third tier of the American soccer pyramid from 2010 to 2014, until discontinuing in favor of Orlando's entry to Major League Soccer (MLS), as an expansion franchise in 2015, by the same ownership group.

happy Friday ! am I surprised to get some lol's.

MLS is not a failure but 23 bucks p/m to watch MLS for the MLS season pass is a fukn joke that is for sure....

CFMEU has entered the chat.

Inter Miami are packing them in with full houses. Great atmosphere too. Not sure what it was like before Messi, but enjoy watching the highlights. 

as I mentioned he sure is and is it showing up MLS standards ?
Messi's seven goals + assists have come in just 294 minutes; one goal every 42 minutes. For context, MLS leading goalscorer Henry Mukhtar's 13 league strikes have come at a rate of one goal every 152 minutes.
Messi has scored in all four of his matches for Inter Miami. Inter Miami have won each of those games – all in the Leagues Cup – after going winless in nine consecutive MLS matches before the 36-year-old arrived.

I see similar comparison in a far far smaller way when ADP came to SFC, a huge name bringing up ticket sales naturally.
Pity he didn't have the backing of a Busquets/Alba but crowd avg's were impressive during his tenure here.

HHHHHHmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

AAAAAARRRRRRRR GGGAAAARRRRR

Beyond interesting, nay mega beyond interesting.... almost a must read article and its only a step if the step happens....

The USL in the States is about to hold a meeting with club owners over the next week or so....

The vote is for P & R over Divisions 2,3 & 4 in the States..... now Div 2 has owners similar to the MLS and there is doubt the USL owners will vote for P & R...

However, what seems to be driving this is the MLS is becoming so dominate the USL needs to in a sense fight back.... and P & R is seen as the way to do it... It is believed if P & R happens and it works it could force the MLS into a similar position....

I copied only a small part of the article after the link, those interested can read the entire link, use this link as the Athletic link sits behind a paywall...

https://sactownsports.com/report-usl-to-vote-on-adopting-promotion-relegation-system/

A monumental vote is set to take place in the near future regarding the USL bringing promotion and relegation to the competition. A report from The Athletic Tuesday revealed the United Soccer League’s plans to discuss future plans for the association. One of those plans would be to implement a promotion/relegation system for the various divisions. While no specifics have been released at this time, the vote will take place at the USL’s board of governors meetings Aug. 9-10 in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Sources also stated that the vote was optimistic to be passed, but it isn’t a certainty at this time.The Athletic’s Tom Bogert and Jeff Rueter were first with the report.

Hopefully it happens and then CONCACAF recognises it as the Official Domestic Association for the US

Heheheheh hope the same happens down here soon :P

yep and yep, good to see the USL is making a point and stance for relevance and stature !
Thanks Middy.....
From the article and Club owners :
“If you somehow think continuing on our current trajectory will make us competitive and where we all want to be, you’re fooling yourself,” one USL owner said. “The reality is MLS will destroy USL long-term (on our current trajectory). But if USL successfully adopts pro/rel and can get division one sanctioning (for the top level), it’ll be transformed.”“Promotion/relegation is truly one of the best constructs in pro sports, full stop,” said another owner. “I believe that it would take USL to a completely new level.”
And :
“Promotion/relegation is an original and inherent part of the professional soccer framework around the world, but given the different economic foundation and infrastructure of American professional sports leagues, implementing a promotion/relegation system in a rational manner in the U.S. has presented a conundrum…Given that it is an ecosystem with multiple leagues and divisions, the USL is positioned to make history and introduce promotion/relegation to North American professional soccer. That said, there are many issues yet to be navigated and negotiated and we look forward to having the league approach and engage the USL Players Association in meaningful discussions.”

Hello MLS and APL, the franchise model does present the conundrums as all can see.....
All the best with the fight.

The link adds a little more and Tom is one of best known Football journalist in the US..... what I find very interesting is the potential speed,  restructure in 24, and introduce in 25.... so in say 18 months a complete change to P & R... at Divs 2, 3 & 4, I should point out that each division is sorta a professional league in its own right with most clubs being privately owned... this is where the doubt comes in will USL owners vote for lower div to be able to move up at their expense....

Kinda like, South Melbourne voting that Woy Woy could take their place... 

Given the votes soon will keep an eye out for the outcome...

 https://twitter.com/tombogert
Tom Bogert
BREAKING: The USL is set for a milestone vote on the adoption of a promotion and relegation system, per sources.
• Plan for three pro tiers
• Potential restructure in 2024, pro/rel in 2025
• Sources optimistic, but not certain to pass

https://theathletic.com/4747662/2023/08/03/usl-promotion-relegation-vote/

An article on the vote, the vote has been delayed seems for clarifications..

The United Soccer League will not be holding a vote on whether to incorporate a promotion and relegation framework into the leagues’ ecosystem at next week’s mid-year meetings, sources told The Athletic on Thursday

According to sources briefed on the league’s plans, clubs were notified this week that the vote would be tabled until an undefined later date. Sources were granted anonymity due to the pending nature of the discussion.

A league spokesperson declined to comment on voting matters at the upcoming meetings, but confirmed competition structure changes, including promotion and relegation, will be a key topic and that the league will provide an update after the meetings.

There are multiple reasons for the delay; however, one club source was quick to clarify that this was not a “dead end” for the initiative. The clubs have been given no reason to believe the change in competitive format is at risk of failing to reach a vote.Instead, sources cited a lack of clarity around what, specifically, was being voted on at this juncture as well as the specifics of what a vote in favor of the motion would indicate.

 As a result, the meetings will help clarify what needs refining over additional time before this can eventually see a vote.League executives have been working on putting a motion toward an open system over the last 18 months, two sources independently stated.Among the biggest questions which stakeholders are raising concern are financial matters, particularly how much of the potential increase in sponsorship and broadcast revenue would be directed to the clubs.

There are additional clarifications needed about how the initial divisions would be determined.The USL has regular board of governors meetings, but much of the biggest decisions funnel toward two events: the mid-year meetings (which take place next week in Colorado Springs) and the USL winter summit, which often takes place in January.

Sources had not been told to expect a vote at the upcoming winter summit, though they also had no reason to rule that potential out entirely .Instead of holding a vote at the end of next week’s mid-year meetings, the league’s board of governors will have working sessions to discuss their areas of concern and work through the logistics necessary to best execute this structure.

 The second-division Championship and third-division League One have separate board of governors meetings as well as a joint session on the schedule. 

Alexi reacts to the USL preparing to vote for promotion

This is a youtube link... worth a listen..


https://www.google.com/search?q=usl+vote+on+relegation&rlz=1C1ONGR_en-GBAU992AU992&oq=usl+vote&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqBwgBEAAYgAQyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQABiABDIHCAIQABiABDIKCAMQABiGAxiKBTIKCAQQABiGAxiKBTIGCAUQRRg8MgYIBhBFGDzSAQg2MTAzajBqN6gCALACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:2bb1f125,vid:tW0KRLIOSdc

Mid, South Melbourne, and all the other AAFC clubs and new entities that have applied for the NSD have already had that vote and went with a resounding "YES" . Their very application for a NSD which is planned (or should I say wished and hoped for) to have pro/rel with ALL the tiers below it is no different to our current existence where South Melbourne can be replaced, at any given time, with Mill Park Soccer Club or Frankston Pines - Sadly not Woy Woy yet, which is why we all want this to go national so that, yes, one day Woy Woy can knock South out of the 1st division......  :)

Your analogy is more like Melbourne Victory (or any one of the other 10 Australian franchsies) voting for Woy Woy to be able to take their place............... 

that makes sense.... 

Its quite interesting .... hang with me on this and give me a little leeway.... but the top four divisions in the USA are all kinda owned and in a sense all little versions of the MLS.....

So the three lets call them closed franchise divisions are feeling the heat from the closed franchise first division.... they method they see that may save them is a sorta half open system between themselves... no idea how far down they would go or if you are outside the top four divisions how you both get in or be booted out...

So capitalism being saved by socialism..

hahahahah great line. I think the "great divide" in the US is that MLS is a massive financial juggernaut and the USL (which runs two leagues and wants a third with pro/rel between all three) sees itself as a competing league rather than part of the same pyramid...  MLS (in my opinion) will eventually create a second division and possibly a third BUT, it wont involve any "outside clubs" Every single "club" playing in these 3 x MLS leagues will be owned by the MLS and run by an ownership group that has invested in the MLS ponzi scheme....   All the USL will manage to achieve (again in my opinion) is to create two competing financial "pyramids" for soccer in the US and then they will fight to gain top tier designation from FIFA.. Nothing to do with youth development, aspirational football for clubs, volunteers, staff and players... pure access to financial markers.... 

The US is waaaaayyyy beyond the point were they can ever welcome every single pro, semi pro and amateur club into the one league..and have the rising tide lift all boats".. 1/2 a billion dollar entry fees will do that :)  Danny and the APL gimps are busting a gut to get to the same point...... with 25 million asked for new licenses they are almost there ... if they can find people to pay the ferryman :)

I watched Miami play Dallas I think it was, and they outplayed Miami well and truly. Messi keeps making the difference for Miami for sure. It is exiting and the packed audience love it, home or away.
I miss our marquee players in the AL, the quality ones at least, like ADP, Broich etc. It has never been the same.