Definite not catholic. Most young earth creationists aren't because, you know, the catholic church accepts the science of evolution.

Protestant, non-Calvinist

The bible has never been right. 

Ok, that's your assertion. Are you willing to put that to the test?

A mocker just throws mud and insults, and that type of person has no interest in speaking truth. Have you tested your assertions?

Over in the Covid forum, tsf, you've shown that your mode of thinking is just to follow the crowd -- so if the crowd you're hanging around with, your mode of thinking would tend to see you follow the taunts of your crowd without any investigating.

The Bible said there was a beginning.  Science said there wasn't.

Why even bother arguing with these two jokers?  All they do is throw ad homs and hissy fits.

"The Bible has never been right" except for being the foundation for the legal and ethical code of the society they fucking live in.

What? Science says, as is their current understanding, that time, and the universe, began with the big bang. That's the beginning (13.8 billion years ago) as they currently understand it. 

Aboriginal dreamtime says there was a 'beginning' too. Does that make 'their' stories true also?

Every culture has 'beginnings' written into their folklore. It's hardly a 'scientific' prediction and claiming it as such is ridiculous.

The bible is at best a collection of stories, anecdotes and doctrine with some history thrown in. Many of the stories, mind you, are pinched holus bolus from other earlier civilisations and cultures and appropriated. (google Gilgamesh) 

If you're taking the bible at it's word you have to accept that Noah, Methuselah and a whole host of others lived to over 900 years old and platypus's walked to Australia. Not too mention the thousand of other ridiculous claims like having your wife turned into a pillar of salt and then having your daughters get you pissed and then raping you to get pregnant. What a hell of a day that was.

Do you believe any of that Enzo? What a basis for a society.

Because if you don't believe all of that garbage you have to accept that western civilisation cherry-picked what they wanted to use as laws, philosophy and moral guidance for society. And if they're cherry-picking only the bits that suit them then it's a long bow to say the bible is why western society is where it is.

 Has it been influential? Of course it has. 

(Don't waste your breath JS. I know you believe it all.) 

Until the 1960's, the Steady State Theory was the accepted scientific explanation for the history of the Universe.  It was accepted that The Universe was always there.

OTOH The Bible specifically refers to their being darkness, followed by light ie pretty much the Big Bang.  It also talks about God being outside of Time, a pretty amazing concept given that modern science agrees that Time began with the Big Bang for only 60 years.

  You probably know the Big Bang was first proposed by Georges Lemaître.  He was an ordained Priest, but also a civil engineer and astrophysicist. So he knew religion and science better than all of us put together-an expert in science and biblical teachings- and yet retained his faith.  Maybe he knew the where the boundaries of each are?

The influence of Christianity on our system of laws, ethics and morals is profound.  Each day Parliament reads the Lords Prayer.  Every single day in Courts all over the country people swear on the Bible for example

Why is it so hard for atheists to give Christianity the credit it deserves?

You keep claiming that a creation myth is some sort of scientific proof. Of course they're going to say god is eternal and has always been there. What else are they going to say? If he popped into existence then they have to explain who put him there. That's a question they'd rather not deal with. (At least scientists say 'we don't know what was before the big bang'.) Besides any of that that's not a specific claim to only Christianity. Every culture has a creation myth. It's a big leap to equate that with the big bang theory but you go ahead.

Nice one.

As for influence. Of course Christianity has an influence. It had to because during the early and late middle ages and the Renaissance if you weren't religious you were an outcast at best, burnt at the stake for being a heretic at the worst. Not only that if you weren't religious you had next to no chance of having a formal education through schooling. Particularly through university.

Look at what happened to Galileo who was put under house arrest for suggesting a heliocentric model of the solar system that wasn't in accordance with what the church thought. Or Darwin sitting on his theory for 40 years because he was afraid of the blowback from the church. For all the wonderful claims of Christianity leading to enlightenment I wouldn't mind betting they hindered it in equal or greater parts.

But to your solid state point. The only reason scientists weren't sure of the structure and age of the universe was because the technology wasn't available at the time to confirm hypotheses. Not only did technology shed light on the universe as it progressed theoretical physics made predictions decades in advance. Something the bible cannot and has never done. Predictions such as cosmic microwave background radiation and ripples in space time were predicted decades before technology confirmed them to be true.

As for the bible being a font of great scientific knowledge are you saying some desert dwelling arab knew more about the cosmos because of a creation myth, that is replicated in some form or another all over the world, than the thousands of scientists working in multiple fields in multiple countries on this subject. 

We know more than yesterday but less than tomorrow. It has always been that way and always will.

As for the Lord's prayer in Parliament that's a disgrace. The Constitution specifically sets out a separation of church and state. The government, on paper, is supposed to be secular. It is a ridiculous anachronistic hangover from a time where people actually thought this sort of thing was important. It's not, and the sooner it goes the better.

I am. Pretty amazing bloke. 

Simon Singh authored a pretty good book on the big bang with a sizable section dedicated to his work.

As for him being religious do you find that surprising given the times these people lived in? It would be more amazing for anyone to hold a position in a university like he had that was an avowed atheist or agnostic. It just wouldn't happen. 

Here's a video that gives some good arguments for a global flood:

https://rumble.com/v2fi13k-this-one-thing-will-stop-you-from-believing-in-a-biblical-flood.html


Here are some other video resources:

https://rumble.com/c/c-1657585?sort=views

https://rumble.com/c/AnswersCanada?sort=views


My premise is that it is not possible to conclusively prove the God-question merely from debate on Evolution-vs-Creation, because you have scientists on both sides.

Of course, people like Muz and tsf easily resolve any debate by insulting the other side as idiots, feeling no need to consider the other side's evidence (mass mob mentality).

But for those of you who are faced with scientific arguments both for and against, there is no resolution. Hence, we need to go bigger-picture and see how the message of Jesus Christ and his apostles stacks up in comparison to all-comers.

And given that the New Testament warns against false-Christian teachers, one cannot just lump anyone who says they're Christian into one group. There is further sifting needed even among those who call themselves Christian.

God has made a way to find the truth.

Lot to unpack there,....

He wasn't just "religious".  He was an ordained priest. He didn't need to be a priest to hold a position in his university. If anything he would have known that his Big Bang theory could be seen as contradicting his faith. Clearly he didn't see any contradiction, nor was he pressured to hide it.  Maybe he knew something you don't.

Just wondering if I adopt a religion, when does the prayer thing start working?

And how does it work?
Do you get granted a few a month/year?
Is there a limit on what they grant? ie - getting money, stopping disasters, long health, winning in extra time
How long do I need to go to church before the prayers kick in?

I'm not sure what your point is. I may have missed it. (He's a scientist and he believes in God?)

There's plenty of cosmologists that accept the big bang, an expanding universe and evolution AND believe in God.

The fact that they can and do hold both positions shows that they don't treat the bible like a science textbook. 

As for him not hiding his faith. Maybe that was true for him. Step back a hundred years (and further) and that definitely wasn't the case.


As for Einstein's fudge that you keep bringing up Einstein was never happy with that and jammed it in to make the model work. He knew it was a blunder but couldn't work out why. That's different from saying a giant global flood inundated the earth and no further correspondence will be entered into.



And the church is the bible. What do you think the church bases it's teachings on. That's a silly splitting of hairs you're trying on there.



Yes Christianity was foundational, I said influential but same same, but as I explained to you in the football section that was despite the bible not because of it. Cherry picking the best bits and leaving out the shit bits proves that christians were more secular humanist than they'd like to believe.

Not really interested in "why" you say what you do johnsmith, Im satisfied with the opinion I have formed of you from your comments and can at least try and see past it... Just questioning your sources and your logic - you know, the premise of a healthy debate when searching for truth on a topic.?
As for "slandering your inner motives" hahahah take it a easy old son....  your insistence on avoiding the original, very straightforward, yes/no question Muz posed to you on this thread is proof enough that its not slander.... You start with the "big picture" answer and work your way backwards from there....

Its actually not splitting hairs mate... Enzo's point is valid... The "Bible (whatever that means to whichever denomination at whatever point in time) is a just a bunch of books which make up some of the foundations of church liturgical law and ceremony.... 

Depends on the Football gods for that one....... 
 

Hang on. The 'bible' is the bases of the church though. Without it the church wouldn't exist.  I mean you can argue which bits you want in or out or how it's interpreted or what's important to you but wouldn't you say this is true?

The Bible is the holy book of Christianity, and it contains the teachings and revelations of God and Jesus Christ. Christians believe that the Bible is the word of God, and that it is the foundation for their faith and doctrine. However, different Christian traditions have different ways of interpreting the Bible, and they may emphasize some parts more than others. Some Christians take the Bible literally, some take it conservatively, and some take it liberally.

You're talking about two different things:  The Bible is all those things that is true.  The Church  OTOH is a man-made organization that purports to interpret and act in accord with it. Clearly recent events in the Catholic Church demonstrate how far apart the two can be.

People who believe in God and are scientists aren't fools and I never said they were* but they can tell the difference between science and a book of stories.

They know the bible isn't a science textbook.

There is too much to go into here. (Hitler was a Christian for starters. The Crusades, The Mongols, the Assyrians, the Babylonians all claimed they were doing God's work and had a divine right to slaughter 100's of millions of people. Because if it wasn't so ordained then God wouldn't allow them to do it.)

Talking about Lenin and Mao and Pol Pot is fine by me as long as you acknowledge the hundreds of millions of lives lost under by cunce acting like they were doing God's will. 

There is no such thing bible morality. You can talk about that all day until you are blue in the face. If you believe the bible to be true and the word of God then you have to accept and take the good with the bad.

I don't want to waste too much of my time here but slavery is fine by the bible, belting your wife up is too and homosexuals should be put to death. Just wonderful.

Oh but look over here. 'Honour thy mother and father' and 'thou shall not kill'.

Just brilliant.



* Young Earth Creationists are though.

It's mind blowing that you're claiming the bible is the basis for western civilisation as we know it but not foundational or influential with regards the church. Without the bible the church wouldn't exist. That's a fact.



As for this.

1. the context: when the Bible was written, life was a perennial struggle.  Under an ethical system, the worst penalty was end your life on this earth. But if your life was in constant peril you might steal, kill and take that risk. You die anyway. But if you believe when you do that, and then end up in purgatory for all eternity, you might think twice. That's a pretty big incentive to behave morally.

Lol what?

This is a wild claim.

That'd go a long way to explain why wars of conquest, slavery, sexism, adultery, murder, rape, robbery, forgery and pretty much any crime were at record lows following Christianity becoming the state religion across most of Europe.

What's that? They weren't.

And even if your claim was true what a way to live your life.

Why are you being a good person? Because if I don't God will smite me.

What a fucking joke.

How about being a good person because you want to be a good person? 

You know the other thing that's wild. Either you or johnsmith (lowercase) are wrong about the universe.

Isn't that interesting?

Obviously you both can't be right. One of you has to be wrong but that sort of thing doesn't warrant too much introspection I'd imagine.

How about being a good person because you want to be a good person? 

Because that's not how people are. And when its been tried, we know what happened.  (BTW Hitler mocked religion even as a child.  It was however  a useful tool for his regime).

Well really that's the end of this discussion isn't it. Your belief is people can't be good without religion and/or a belief in God.

It's interesting that you need to fear something to be a good person. And it is fear, you said as much yourself. I find that odd and a bit disturbing to be honest. You're really like a child looking forward to Christmas aren't you? Now look little Enzo if you're naughty then you won't get a present. 

There's not much else to say. 

Again, you're looking at the past without context of what life was like in those times. you do not know what would have happened in Godless societies (actually you do-look at the 20 th century the misery caused in half a century by Godless societies was truly breathtaking.

You know what we do know though?

How people behaved under a belief in God. Hundreds of millions of dead from widespread pogroms, crusades, invasions, missionaries to 'convert savages' and all the rest of it. Just wonderful.

Plus you're confusing the teachings of the Bible with the actions of mankind in its name.

Yep the old get out. 'It's not the bible that's to blame, it's man'. How very convenient.

Nice crutch to cling to to blame all the world's ills on. If only more people believed in God then we wouldn't being having all of these troubles. Cough, cough Israel / Palestine. Wait up, one mob believes in the right god, one doesn't. Carry on then.


You talk about the 'context of the times'.

Think about being a ruler at any time during history. Do you want a bunch of subservient vassals and serfs you can scare half to death through religion or do you want a society full of free thinkers and progressives?

 What better way to rule a people then through a 'divine ordination' through God. (Religion has entered the chat.) 
 
I like how you took the time to address some of my points but conveniently ignored my a whole post about the literal hundreds of millions killed because people believed god gave them the divine right to do so. 'Oh but Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot' .

Oh yeah and the cherry picking of morality from the bible.

What do you mean- I've never said I know how the universe originated.

Talking about the age of the universe, not how it originated.

Interesting that you see Israel Palestine as a geopolitical war but somehow WW1 and WW2 as 'secular' wars. If they weren't geopolitical what is? Oh yeah, Israel Palestine.

I've read some dumb things before but blaming secularism rather than geopolitics for both world wars is outright ridiculous.