Why not? I did the same dismantling your arguments with facts knowing that you'd never change your mind.  The problem with people like you lack self-awareness. 

This is the kind of thing I've been talking about:

“I was surprised by how often it happens – and how easy it is [to do the wrong thing],” said lead author Dr Kristen Scicluna, herself a former medical researcher. “And how some institutions are almost complicit. It’s shocking.”

https://www.theage.com.au/national/unis-scientists-unite-for-first-time-on-need-for-research-misconduct-body-20231111-p5ej92.html

The scientific method is sound.  "The Science" ie the people. are not, necessarily.

Trust the method.  Not The Science.

Wasnt trying to be facetious Muz, just providing a rebuttal to tsf with an obvious prime example of a country where religion is the backbone of their morality.... I agree with both you and tsf that organised religion and zealotry has caused a HUGE amount of damage to the world. Both sides of this latest Palestinian conflict are sitting on opposite sides of an imaginary line in the desert praying to the same god to grant them victory over the heathens on the other side.... What (I believe Enzo is trying to say - at least I am anyway)  is that religion has also benefited the world by providing an understanding of consequences of morality and ethical choices.... Not just Christianity but all religions, from the dawn of time, are ways humans used to try and explain what and why their lives panned out like they did.. Having some sort of "divine" judgement over how you react to your fellow man is what prevented us from being the selfish, animals we sometimes sadly still are today... 
You dont have to believe the world was created 6000 years ago and some Jewish dude walked on water to find comfort in the fact that the universe isnt just some cold dark random place and being a decent, empathetic person doesnt make you an evolutionary loser but a contributor to a better experience for your fellow man.

No matter what your take is, the discussion is an interesting one, at least to me... 

There's sound evolutionary reasons for the develop of religious beliefs. It's also not surprising that people seek a deeper meaning for their existence. None at all.

But.

I'm OK with the universe being a cold, unthinking, random place where we happen to exist. That's fine by me. I don't need a belief in the supernatural to know who I am or explain it.

Here's a Bible verse that sums up crucial and core issues:

"The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.” (Acts 17:30-31)

- Is there a God in the first place?

- If so, how do we know which God, out of all the religions is the true one, or are there many gods?

- Why would that God judge you? The assumption is that we'e all generally good people?

- What's the proof for Jesus Christ being raised from the dead?

Once you start at this end, and see the evidence - and realise Jesus Christ is God above all other spirits claiming to be god - then you work backwards with the mindset that a supernatural God does exist. As you recall, for each point Muz raised, both sides have scientists who offer scientific explanations. Then, once you factor in the existence of a supernatural God who is capable of miracles, then the scientific proofs for Creation are not as silly as it sounds.

Here's a link to a movie rendition of the book "The Case For Christ". The main character in the story is Lee Strobel, who was an investigative journalist for the Chicago Tribune. To his horror, his wife became a born-again Christian. And he spent months investigating the claims of Jesus Christ's Resurrection in order to disprove it, so that he could rescue his wife from Christianity. In the end, he found the proof for Christ's resurrection irrefutable, and he became a Christian.

https://youtu.be/hzespY6MyFA?

This is why I've said repeatedly, to investigate the Noah's Ark account, you have to start with the proof of Jesus Christ being Lord and Messiah of the World. That's because, once that is established, you work backwards factoring in the existence of a supernatural God. The bottom line is, there is sufficient scientific explanation in the geology and structure of the earth to substantiate a global Flood. The ONE thing that stops people like Muz from seeing that is he totally discounts the existence of a supernatural God.

p/s the above Bible verse continues:

"Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked. But others said, “We will hear you again about this.”" (Acts 17:32)

Thus, in every era, you have mockers, and you have those who are willing to listen and test evidence that is against their worldview.

Are you OK with terrorism, murder, child molesters, genocide and rape? That is the logical extension of a cold, unthinking, random universe, everything within it is also cold, unthinking and random, including life, morality, purpose. Sure there is the performance theater of being outwardly angry, for the purpose of fitting in socially and maximizing your reproductive potential, but in your quieter, private moments do you engage the higher functioning part of your brain and admit to yourself that it's all just bullshit?

I'm ok with atheists, but I noticed many atheists are reluctant to be atheists when it comes to their own internal dialogue about themselves, morality, existence and love, and choose to indulge in religious superstition in a clumsy foolhardy attempt to avoid going down the path of nihilism. Being a true atheist isn't just about not believing in god and thinking you will rot when you die, that's easy that part, the hard, brave part is admitting everything RIGHT NOW is bullshit. It must be hard being an atheist and constantly having to balance your outward perspectives of the universe with your heavily religiously influenced evolutionary programmed mind.

Are you OK with a god allowing all that. For what point? That's the logical extension of a god that is omnipotent. (You know according to you he watches you wanking. And kiddy fiddlers raping children and does nothing about it. By logical extension.)

Anyway, I can't be arsed Rusty. You people are ridiculous. As an atheist I rape and murder as many people as I want to and that is exactly NONE.

Have I wondered about the higher meaning of life and what's it all about? Sure. But I don't need a god in my life to explain why I'm here? I've accepted that pretty much everything that happens on earth by anyone and in my life means, at the end of the day, absolutely nothing. Zero. The universe cares not one dot that I am here or what I do during my life.

My personally philosophy is a mixture of try and treat everyone like you'd like to be treated, try and help some people along the way if you can and leave the world a slightly better place than when you entered it. That's it.

Really the best you can really hope for is to be remembered fondly.

The universe existed billions of years before I got here and will exist for billions of years after. I'm OK with that. I find it interesting that rather than take responsibility for your own actions you're invested in a higher purpose and the supernatural to behave yourself, for self reflection and introspection. That's weirder to me than not believing in a god.

Is it all just bullshit? Yes, most likely.

Is it hard because in an evolutionary sense we're probably predisposed to religious beliefs and you have to argue against your instincts internally? Sure.

But that's no different to being hard wired to be 'racist' (afraid of people different to yourselves) but we've progressed to a stage where we realise that other races are no different than us. We've fought against out evolutionary instincts that made sense 10's of thousands of years ago and are better people for it. 

I get it. Realising that you are nothing, NOTHING, in the scheme of things is hard for you people to contemplate. It's a really hard process of introspection that eludes most people. Far easier to cling to a god and all the wonderful goodies and promises that come with it.

Really it's just Santa Claus for adults. If that helps you get through life then you roll with that.
 

Appears I could be arsed.

Muz, are you a parent? At some point, a good parent lets their children experience the consequences of their actions so they will learn.

God's core characteristic is Love. This God wanted to create children with whom he could have a loving relationship for all eternity.

Therefore, to create human beings with the capacity to love, God had to create us with free will. Without free will, a person can not love. For example, you cannot walk down the road, see a gorgeous woman, and force that woman to love you against her free will. Thus, any religion that is not characterised by free will is not a "religion of love".

Hence, when mankind used that freewill to reject God and align themselves with the devil, God respected that exercise of their freewill. So the history of mankind is them experiencing the consequences of their freewill choice.

Because God loves us, and does not want us to perish, God has made a way to come back to him. But God will not force you against your freewill. God wants you to voluntarily love him.

So the ubiquitous question: Why does God allow evil and suffering? In summary, because God made mankind with freewill, and mankind chose to align with the devil, and God respects that decision. But God has made a way out. That way out is for each individual to chose to come back to God, and be God's representative to counter evil in this world.

In other words, God hates evil, but he just doesn't get rid of it (since God will not override mankind's freewill choice to choose to align with the devil). Instead, God offers each individual the choice to turn away from evil, and become his representative to stop evil.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed." (John 3:16-20)

(Incidentally, in terms of Christian theology, any doctrine that asserts that there is no such thing as freewill can be shown up to be a false teaching, no matter how popular that doctrine).

Feel free to write what you want but understand that, save for this, I won't be responding to anything you write.

I cannot have a discussion with someone who thinks the earth is 6000 years old, Noah lived to over 900 and playtpusses walked to Australia.

Save your time.

I disagree. I would have thought from a purely evolutionary standpoint, survival of the fittest would dictate that a successful transfer of genes onto another generation would require pure animal selfishness... Nice guys finish last in "nature red in tooth and claw" mate. A pure "biological" species for lack of a better word would NOT draw the line against rape, theft, murder, child molestation... we wouldn't be compelled to in our quest to ONLY ensure the continuation of our genetic makeup. Just like a virus or an insect or any other biological species...  Our closest relatives in the primate world dont shun members of their species when they murder their own children or murder. They dont show remorse or guilt.  They just eat, shit and breed and EVERY action revolves around doing that as efficiently and successfully as possible. 

As for not needing to understand who you are or to explain "the meaning of life" fair enough mate. Im not suggesting you have to, each of us has the right to tackle that question in their own way. Or want to. Fact is that despite evolutionary drive to NOT bother about the spiritual needs of humanity, mankind has, from the very very beginning, sought ways to fulfil that side of our nature. Ever since we first crawled out of the holes in the ground we lived in, decided that it would be a good idea to cover our hairless bodies from the weather and worked out how to communicate with each other we figured the best way to survive is to work together... Its the "rules" of religion I believe you hate )and I agree with you), not the drive... if that makes sense?

He shows them that love every day by giving them a slow horrible death from cancer, letting them drown in our pools or burning them alive in gaza 

yep

Groups are more successful than individuals. There's very good evolutionary reasons to be altruistic. If I kill that bloke over there that we've been hunting with are you then sitting there thinking 'am I next'. It makes sense to be caring and sharing in an environment when groups are better at surviving then individuals. If I break my leg will I get enough food to eat without someone's help before I get better? That would go some way to explaining why we evolved not to be 'every man for himself'.

Plenty of societies have engaged in genocidal conquests without a care in the world as to the misery they had inflicted. They simply did not give them a second thought. The whole slaughter of Jews and Slavs in WW2 was because people considered them subhuman. A belief in a god didn't seem to hinder any of those people from behaving as they did. Your average German or Ukranian or Croat were just about as Christian as you could be which didn't, for one minute, stop them slaughtering hundreds and thousands of people up close and personal. 

The whole conquest and deaths of up to 24 million people in Central and South America (Enzo was asking how this was relevant) was by people who had a rabid belief in god and thought they were literally doing god's work.

I'm also 100% certain that tribes of Neanderathals and proto humans engaged in murder and rape without a care in the world.

As I said before. There are very good evolutionary reasons to be 'racist'. It makes sense that as soon as people got together in small tribes they had to be wary of outsiders. But, in the main, we have outgrown that thinking.

I see a belief in the supernatural, as increases in atheism has risen across the world, as something that the majority will eventually outgrow.

You might quote 60% of people as having a belief in god as some sort of stat that proves Australians are majority believers but I wouldn't mind betting a lot of those people are like me. Baptised catholic (or whatever) and just tick a box on the census but never attend a church and never think about god.

Here's a question for you? Are you the religion your parents were? 

I'm assuming you will say yes. Don't you find that odd?

Of all the religions in the world, you are the religion you grew up with. The religion your friends, their families, your community are. I think a lot of people who are religious are culturally religious. They don't really give it too much thought because it's part of who they are and they like the customs and ceremonies around them..

Rusty accused atheists of not giving too much thought to 'what's it all mean'. I would counter that by saying that people who believe in god don't give it too much thought because they might actually run into some pretty disconcerting questions about their faith. (My brother died and his wife remarried, who will she be with in heaven when they're all dead. Which dad will the kids hang out with?) 

I'm assuming you're around the mid 40's, maybe 50 mark. If you sat down one day and had a big long think about all of this and thought maybe it is all garbage, what would be the ramifications be for that realisation?

You'd have to admit your belief for over 40 years, every thing you believe in the world, your sense of place and purpose are now upended. It's not surprising that religious people don't give these things too much thought. Imagine the devastation of thinking that for 40 years the belief system that had been instilled in you through outside influences, that you had no control over, could be all garbage.

I get it. It's better not to think about it.

  This is santa clause for atheists  lol

As an atheist the only personal philosophy you can honestly subscribe to is “ everything including my life, everything and everyone in it is random, involuntary and meaningless”

Sure you can confect some silly beliefs about helping others and being remembered fondly blah blah, but isn’t that what you argue the religious people do, confect beliefs to find meaning and comfort in the cold, dark universe?

How do you confront someone whose personal philosophy is to rape as many women as possible? As a true atheist you would have to concede that person isn’t morally wrong or evil since those are pseudo religious terms and that the rapist is in fact equal to you. In fact from an evolutionary perspective may even be more efficient at reproducing, so why not give them a high five rather than a jail sentence?

Denying god is easy, you can live life the way you see fit and when you die you become worm food. No harm done. The hard part is accepting the consequences that come with denying god, admitting there is no good/evil, justice, free will, love, human rights, morality or meaning in anything, and then living your life according to those precepts. Instead atheists cop out and do what you would argue religious people do, indulge in magical thinking to cope and try to make sense of things.

Don't know, maybe you can ask someone in the clergy - they are probably the most prolific mass rapists known to humanity, even if it's just children

Morality or ethics pre-date religion. It's not just something religion came up with...various civilisations had self beliefs and social constructs to maintain a positive community 

Sure is. At the end of the day it is all meaningless. What do you want me to say?

I'm not confecting a belief unless you call a philosophy a belief.

You are weirdly very aggressive about this.

I don't need religion to have morals. Morals have evolved over time. (And will further evolve.) That's why it used to be ok to keep slaves, kill gays and belt your wife up in biblical times and now it's not. Even though the bible says those things are ok. (According to Enzo I'm taking these bits out of context. Uh huh.)

If morals were sacrosanct and immutable they wouldn't change. But they do, and will do.

As an atheist why would I high-five a murderer when I know that it's wrong. My non-belief in a god doesn't stop me from determining what is and isn't good behaviour.

Would I care about someone I love being killed? Yes I would. Would I seek punishment? Yes I would.

Can I empathise with someone I don't know being murdered through the magic of altruism that evolved hundreds of thousands of years ago in sub-Saharan Africa? Yes I would. Would I hope that they are punished? Yes I would.

I don't know why you keep implying we're copping out by not believing in god. I don't need a belief in the supernatural to try and be a good person. (Good being relative to what societal expectations are today. Google up the origins of 'exposure' with regards to children for an eye opener on what used to be acceptable.)

By your definition you're only being good to because you don't want to be burnt to death for all eternity. (Something the church is now saying might not be exactly true. See also limbo and purgatory. Isn't it funny that something that was doctrine for almost 2000 years was just wiped away with the stroke of a pen.)

Interesting though.

Rusty good because hell bad. Ok.

Correct.

And did LOL at your raping children bit.

Of course they'll counter by saying they're not real christians. It's laughable really.

Thats really impossible to prove mate..... 

Christianity and "the clergy" has only been around for 2000 years mate... There are some truly horrendous things done in the name 'the gods" throughout history 

I gave you reasons above Enzo. It makes sense to not kill people when you live in small groups for the good of the group.

We've evolved that way.

Ah the 'not real christians' argument.

Partly a go at you but mostly Rusty and others. This has been the fall back position forever.

And here's the best thing. If they do get away with it, with a belief in god in your top pocket, they will be punished.

Understandable wishful thinking.

Mate you are coming at me with dogma and "rules" again... Christ said this, the Pope believes that .... these are the trappings of fallible humans in all their greed and corruption. Who gets to "hang out with the kids in heaven"? c'mon FFS thats not what I am arguing about at all...  Yes, as a society we have learnt to rely on community as a beneficial mechanism for evolution but within even modern societies there is NO reason to be altruistic and it shows in how we interrelate with each other on a daily basis. Ask the poor little incel boys sitting at home on their keyboards knowing they will never "plant their seed" The Alpha male gets the best looking biological stock preggersl, the Rich old fucker gets the Playboy model... its dog eat dog and always will be... You point to the genocides committed in the name of Christianity ... absolutely i agree that is dire shit but that i is a "human nature justification of greed and evil" not a belief in god that caused that shit.... 

Clutching on to my 40s for grim life and yeah I get your point about "cultural religiousness" and agree....  I have sat down and had a long hard think about it and have come to the opposite conclusion you have mate...  If we are just a cognoscente bunch of cells stuck together solely to pass on a genome packet to the next funbag that comes along then life really is shit and has no purpose....  maybe what I believe is 100% garbage, but in the middle of the difficulties of life it gives me a "reason" to get up in the morning, tend to my family and friends, go about my work and play and enjoy life for what it brings... That alone makes believing in something higher than myself enough, at least for me....
I aint no bible thumper mate, nor trying to convince you one way or another.