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dman2018 - 4 Sep 2024 5:27 PM
Zef - 4 Sep 2024 12:10 PM

In just glad the most pollies only tell lies to get elected...  Thankfully they revert to complete honesty when in power...

I'm also thankful the press have never been guilty of embellishment or fabrication...

Also glad some academics at my eldest's University have made it clear to her, men can menstruate...

Anyways.. I'll just a mask on and stay 1.5m away from everyone, and get a jab so I can't catch or transmit.... Oh....

Distrust in those institutions is as much if not more a result of people representing them being caught in the act of being dishonest, than it is driven by nut jobs on the web...

I reckon completely writing off all conspiracies is equally as ignorant as believing all conspiracies...

It's not like none of them have ever become conspiracy fact...

Back to the footy!!!...

I like the last sentence...
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dman2018 - 4 Sep 2024 5:29 PM
hounddog - 4 Sep 2024 2:53 PM

NRLol putting their foot in it with this Latrell is not fit to serve his suspension this year... 'Walk back' coming quicker than a white house press statement after a Biden speech methinks...

Storm in a glass of beer.

I don't expect perfection... but proactive rather than reactive would be a nice change...

They need to send a group of us Dogs fans over on an all you can drink tour with gambling money to Vegas to test the joint out. We don't want NRL players slipping in the bathrooms and getting an injury.

I'll tell the Casinos what Aussie beer they need on tap.
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dman2018 - 4 Sep 2024 5:27 PM
Zef - 4 Sep 2024 12:10 PM

In just glad the most pollies only tell lies to get elected...  Thankfully they revert to complete honesty when in power...

I'm also thankful the press have never been guilty of embellishment or fabrication...

Also glad some academics at my eldest's University have made it clear to her, men can menstruate...

Anyways.. I'll just a mask on and stay 1.5m away from everyone, and get a jab so I can't catch or transmit.... Oh....

Distrust in those institutions is as much if not more a result of people representing them being caught in the act of being dishonest, than it is driven by nut jobs on the web...

I reckon completely writing off all conspiracies is equally as ignorant as believing all conspiracies...

It's not like none of them have ever become conspiracy fact...

Back to the footy!!!...

Well that’s not what I said, and you’re just confirming the Rush Limbaugh mantra of never trusting Government, academia, science or the media.

You can have all the scepticism you want and in fact it’s healthy, but all conspiracy nuts confuse scepticism with cynicism and then say everyone else is gullible.

When in fact the gullible and the cynics both come from the same tree of stupidity, just opposite branches, but both as stupid as each other. One believes everything they hear the other nothing they hear. At least the gullible ain’t stupid enough to think they’re smart. Cynics aren’t smart enough to know they’re stupid.

It’s healthy to be sceptical of one independent claim of anything no matter who the source. But when say Government tells you something, which maybe and often is supported by both sides of the aisle. And independently it’s backed by academia, different branches of academia with no connection to each other. Science confirms it, peer reviewed from within with nil interest in supporting competing claims unless they’ reach the same conclusion (and btw, science is NEVER settled, only progressed, scientists will tell you that). The press reports on it, competing press both trying to outdo and outscoop each other but they report the same…

If you’re going to be sceptical about it then are you sure you’re not being cynical?

Because when I’ll ask one of those nut jobs who it is then that actually does know the truth, the answer is usually Alex Jones or Foxnews or the intdernet.

With zero scepticism applied.

Because they’re stupid.
Edited
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Zef - 4 Sep 2024 10:46 PM
dman2018 - 4 Sep 2024 5:27 PM

Well that’s not what I said, and you’re just confirming the Rush Limbaugh mantra of never trusting Government, academia, science or the media.

You can have all the scepticism you want and in fact it’s healthy, but all conspiracy nuts confuse scepticism with cynicism and then say everyone else is gullible.

When in fact the gullible and the cynics both come from the same tree of stupidity, just opposite branches, but both as stupid as each other. One believes everything they hear the other nothing they hear. At least the gullible ain’t stupid enough to think they’re smart. Cynics aren’t smart enough to know they’re stupid.

It’s healthy to be sceptical of one independent claim of anything no matter who the source. But when say Government tells you something, which maybe and often is supported by both sides of the aisle. And independently it’s backed by academia, different branches of academia with no connection to each other. Science confirms it, peer reviewed from within with nil interest in supporting competing claims unless they’ reach the same conclusion (and btw, science is NEVER settled, only progressed, scientists will tell you that). The press reports on it, competing press both trying to outdo and outscoop each other but they report the same…

If you’re going to be sceptical about it then are you sure you’re not being cynical?

Because when I’ll ask one of those nut jobs who it is then that actually does know the truth, the answer is usually Alex Jones or Foxnews or the intdernet.

With zero scepticism applied.

Because they’re stupid.

My sister has a friend who comes from a family of theorists.... they are also quite religious.

My god they are hard work. 

I cant believe what the world has done to them for them to feel so disenfranchised. They question the motives of just about everything and use religion as a tool as to why its wrong.

I think you need ro speak to them Zef.....
I give up.
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Marki - 5 Sep 2024 6:08 AM
Zef - 4 Sep 2024 10:46 PM

My sister has a friend who comes from a family of theorists.... they are also quite religious.

My god they are hard work. 

I cant believe what the world has done to them for them to feel so disenfranchised. They question the motives of just about everything and use religion as a tool as to why its wrong.

I think you need ro speak to them Zef.....
I give up.

Just tell them that they are doomed to lead a totally miserable life, because they are.
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Just as the NRL season is getting to the business end,  the NFL season is kicking off. 

My team the Bears have a stacked squad with what seems like talent in every position,  including elite talent in the key positions.

Expectations are high, higher than they have been at the start of a season for a long time. 

It is hard to imagine what can go wrong, but something can always go wrong. 

One problem is being one of the favourites, that motivates other teams to lift.

The Dog's results are great this season,  because we don't have that kind of squad.

We should be closer to that kind of squad in 2025, and we could have a premiership winning squad in 2026, I'll settle for that.

As for the Bears most of the elite talent is young enough to learn from the experience and be at the club another 7-10 years.

All of my football teams are trending in the right direction, I think I am headed for a great  next 5 years.
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The thing is with conspiracy theorists is they completely deliberately ignore human nature.

People lie and people can’t keep secrets - all of us all the time.

If you’ve got a secret and you tell one other person, no matter how much you trust them, your secret is compromised. The person who you tell that secret to, that you may trust with your life, may… probably… almost certainly… has another friend that they may trust with their life. How many times has someone said to you “Don’t tell anyone this, but….”?

The only person you could trust with a secret is someone who has just as much or more to lose with the guarding of that secret as you. And even then it’s only so long as they’ve got nothing to lose or it’s to their self interest to not guard it anymore.

Now ofcourse there are organisations mostly capable of keeping highly guarded secrets like the military, the mafia and such, you could probably name others. But even they leak don’t they?

But we’re usually not talking about them or their types of secrets  when we’re talking conspiracy theory, we’re usually talking global or national conspiracies involving dozens or hundreds or thousands - tens, hundreds of thousands of people who NEVER leak.

And I’m not talking about the “Oh but I know someone who worked with someone who said…” types - they’re bullshitting you simple as that. I’m talking about someone presenting the email or document or… anything.

This is what you should consider when you consider your latest conspiracy theory.

How many people are involved? More than one? Start being sceptical.

Where’s the whistleblower? Is it just hearsay? Ramp up your scepticism.

No evidence of any reasonable sort presented? It’s not a conspiracy, it’s a bullshit story.

So get off the intdernet.

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There’s only one conspiracy theory, that I can think of, that I have curiosity about, and that’s the Kennedy assassination. But not for the obvious reasons.

Firstly, there is no doubt the headshot DID come from behind. The stabilised Zupruder film proves that beyond any reasonable doubt. The “back and to the side” theory is wrong when viewed frame by frame. At frame… 312 I believe it is.. the impact of the headshot. You clearly see Kennedy’s head is violently pushed forward, so quick it’s easily missed in real time, it’s then as a result of that violent forward movement his head rebounds “back and to the side”. So it’s actually “forward and back and to the side”

So the shot definitely come from behind. I believe most likely from the School Book Depository and most likely fired by Oswald.

So none of that is the part I have questions about.

What I question is that there is no doubt that Oswald at one time was a CIA asset. Definitely before he went to Russia, and most likely after he returned and was working for The American for Cuba or similar thing in… I think New Orleans.

Further to that he definitely was under surveillance leading up to the assasination itself.

And this isn’t hearsay, this is all in declassified documents released by the Gov over the decades. And I suspect there’s even more in the still declassified stuff.

So what does it mean? I should add before getting to that it was no secret then or now that the CIA and Kennedy were openly at war for context to motive

So three possibilities all equally conceivable.

The CIA made it happen using most likely Oswald.

The CIA let it happen.

Or…

There simply was no conspiracy and an ex CIA asset went rogue without their knowledge or involvement of what he was planning and executed.

And I don’t know which one is true, but I’m almost certain one of them is.
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The key man for building any club in any sport is the GM football.

Gus is as good as anyone, possibly the best in the business. 

Curran was interviewed by Grub, Webster didn’t give him many minutes in 2023, he played more minutes out of position in the centres.

I was surprised,  it seemed like he was looking for a gig and the Warriors didn't want to keep him.

Their loss is our gain, easily top 10 for signings this season.

Webster had success in 2023, but the Warriors coming back to the pack in 2024 isn't a major surprise if letting Curran go is an indication of their recruitment and retention.

I am finding it hard to believe what Curran is saying, but I can't see why he would lie. It is clear that he doesn't like Webster. 
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I agree on the numbers for a conspiracy theory.

If 2-3; people can devise and execute the conspiracy theory in secret with no written records and no need for official permission it is possible. 

One of them needs to be a senior manager or they need to be rogue and unsanctioned. 

If a large sum of money is needed that has to come from somewhere.

An assassination is possible because only one person is needed to pull the trigger and it doesn't need a pile of money. Anyone involved would know that they need to keep quiet. Someone might offer up a deathbed confession. 

In sport betting scandals happen because they is money to be made and often it only takes 1-2 players and players are sometimes in desperate need of money.

Refs fixing games or favouring teams is a whole other ball game, lots of people would need to be involved and it is hard to do it consistently without providing strong clues. 

If a individual call can decide a game and an individual ref has a bias, that isn't a conspiracy,  just a poor ref.
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There is one group that love a conspiracy, the media. 

A conspiracy theory doesn't even need to be true to be a great story.

Any conspiracy theory that includes the media keeping quiet is harder to believe, 

In earlier eras the media turned a blind-eye to the off field activities of players,  those days are long gone.

When I look at how the Dogs club was run in any era, our on field results good and bad are generally no surprise, especially when we consider that culture and standards occasionally hang on for a while. 
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Zef - 5 Sep 2024 8:50 AM
The thing is with conspiracy theorists is they completely deliberately ignore human nature.

People lie and people can’t keep secrets - all of us all the time.

If you’ve got a secret and you tell one other person, no matter how much you trust them, your secret is compromised. The person who you tell that secret to, that you may trust with your life, may… probably… almost certainly… has another friend that they may trust with their life. How many times has someone said to you “Don’t tell anyone this, but….”?

The only person you could trust with a secret is someone who has just as much or more to lose with the guarding of that secret as you. And even then it’s only so long as they’ve got nothing to lose or it’s to their self interest to not guard it anymore.

Now ofcourse there are organisations mostly capable of keeping highly guarded secrets like the military, the mafia and such, you could probably name others. But even they leak don’t they?

But we’re usually not talking about them or their types of secrets  when we’re talking conspiracy theory, we’re usually talking global or national conspiracies involving dozens or hundreds or thousands - tens, hundreds of thousands of people who NEVER leak.

And I’m not talking about the “Oh but I know someone who worked with someone who said…” types - they’re bullshitting you simple as that. I’m talking about someone presenting the email or document or… anything.

This is what you should consider when you consider your latest conspiracy theory.

How many people are involved? More than one? Start being sceptical.

Where’s the whistleblower? Is it just hearsay? Ramp up your scepticism.

No evidence of any reasonable sort presented? It’s not a conspiracy, it’s a bullshit story.

So get off the intdernet.

Well said my friend.

I keep trying to tell the conspiracy theorists that if people were so smart and so coniving to come up with elaborate ways to make lots of money or control mankind.... they'd fekking TELL you about it because they want to brag. 

There's no fun in making lots of money or controlling the population without making it clear that you're behind it all. 

Some people just dont think.
Or..... They conveniently choose not to.

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Zef - 5 Sep 2024 9:08 AM
There’s only one conspiracy theory, that I can think of, that I have curiosity about, and that’s the Kennedy assassination. But not for the obvious reasons.

Firstly, there is no doubt the headshot DID come from behind. The stabilised Zupruder film proves that beyond any reasonable doubt. The “back and to the side” theory is wrong when viewed frame by frame. At frame… 312 I believe it is.. the impact of the headshot. You clearly see Kennedy’s head is violently pushed forward, so quick it’s easily missed in real time, it’s then as a result of that violent forward movement his head rebounds “back and to the side”. So it’s actually “forward and back and to the side”

So the shot definitely come from behind. I believe most likely from the School Book Depository and most likely fired by Oswald.

So none of that is the part I have questions about.

What I question is that there is no doubt that Oswald at one time was a CIA asset. Definitely before he went to Russia, and most likely after he returned and was working for The American for Cuba or similar thing in… I think New Orleans.

Further to that he definitely was under surveillance leading up to the assasination itself.

And this isn’t hearsay, this is all in declassified documents released by the Gov over the decades. And I suspect there’s even more in the still declassified stuff.

So what does it mean? I should add before getting to that it was no secret then or now that the CIA and Kennedy were openly at war for context to motive

So three possibilities all equally conceivable.

The CIA made it happen using most likely Oswald.

The CIA let it happen.

Or…

There simply was no conspiracy and an ex CIA asset went rogue without their knowledge or involvement of what he was planning and executed.

And I don’t know which one is true, but I’m almost certain one of them is.

So 2 conspiracies and 1 truth?

I vote for truth. Lol.

In all seriousness, i don't know much of the story.... Just that he was assasinated and by all reports, it was Oswald. Didnt even know it was a topic of conjecture. 



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hounddog - 5 Sep 2024 9:53 AM
The key man for building any club in any sport is the GM football.

Gus is as good as anyone, possibly the best in the business. 

Curran was interviewed by Grub, Webster didn’t give him many minutes in 2023, he played more minutes out of position in the centres.

I was surprised,  it seemed like he was looking for a gig and the Warriors didn't want to keep him.

Their loss is our gain, easily top 10 for signings this season.

Webster had success in 2023, but the Warriors coming back to the pack in 2024 isn't a major surprise if letting Curran go is an indication of their recruitment and retention.

I am finding it hard to believe what Curran is saying, but I can't see why he would lie. It is clear that he doesn't like Webster. 

The Warriors drop from top 8 this season is alot less to do with Curran than you would think. He was scarcely used there even last year when they were going great guns.

A bigger influence for them was CNK and also SJ. When CNK is on fire, his teams make finals. He is a very influential fullback. Wish we had him actually.
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hounddog - 5 Sep 2024 2:07 PM
There is one group that love a conspiracy, the media. 

A conspiracy theory doesn't even need to be true to be a great story.

Any conspiracy theory that includes the media keeping quiet is harder to believe, 

In earlier eras the media turned a blind-eye to the off field activities of players,  those days are long gone.

When I look at how the Dogs club was run in any era, our on field results good and bad are generally no surprise, especially when we consider that culture and standards occasionally hang on for a while. 

Theres only 1 conspiracy in this world and that is the trees that go out of their way to intercept my golf balls as their own their way to the green.

I swear i reckon ive heard them whisper to each other as to which one will stop my ball and drop it behind the trunk of another....

Conspiracy i tell ya!



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Marki - 5 Sep 2024 7:30 PM
hounddog - 5 Sep 2024 2:07 PM

Theres only 1 conspiracy in this world and that is the trees that go out of their way to intercept my golf balls as their own their way to the green.

I swear i reckon ive heard them whisper to each other as to which one will stop my ball and drop it behind the trunk of another....

Conspiracy i tell ya!



I stopped playing golf, because if I end up in hell, I'll be playing plenty.
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dman2018 - 4 Sep 2024 5:27 PM
Zef - 4 Sep 2024 12:10 PM

In just glad the most pollies only tell lies to get elected...  Thankfully they revert to complete honesty when in power...

I'm also thankful the press have never been guilty of embellishment or fabrication...

Also glad some academics at my eldest's University have made it clear to her, men can menstruate...

Anyways.. I'll just a mask on and stay 1.5m away from everyone, and get a jab so I can't catch or transmit.... Oh....

Distrust in those institutions is as much if not more a result of people representing them being caught in the act of being dishonest, than it is driven by nut jobs on the web...

I reckon completely writing off all conspiracies is equally as ignorant as believing all conspiracies...

It's not like none of them have ever become conspiracy fact...

Back to the footy!!!...

If we rely on the evidence and base our conclusions on them, we are doing the best we possibly can. That is science. Yes, there are complexities but that’s the basics. 

I still can’t believe the majority of people forgot their childhood science classes. Being sceptical is very easy. 

But yes. Big game this weekend. Let’s get back to the footy. 

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Zef - 4 Sep 2024 10:46 PM
dman2018 - 4 Sep 2024 5:27 PM

Well that’s not what I said, and you’re just confirming the Rush Limbaugh mantra of never trusting Government, academia, science or the media.

You can have all the scepticism you want and in fact it’s healthy, but all conspiracy nuts confuse scepticism with cynicism and then say everyone else is gullible.

When in fact the gullible and the cynics both come from the same tree of stupidity, just opposite branches, but both as stupid as each other. One believes everything they hear the other nothing they hear. At least the gullible ain’t stupid enough to think they’re smart. Cynics aren’t smart enough to know they’re stupid.

It’s healthy to be sceptical of one independent claim of anything no matter who the source. But when say Government tells you something, which maybe and often is supported by both sides of the aisle. And independently it’s backed by academia, different branches of academia with no connection to each other. Science confirms it, peer reviewed from within with nil interest in supporting competing claims unless they’ reach the same conclusion (and btw, science is NEVER settled, only progressed, scientists will tell you that). The press reports on it, competing press both trying to outdo and outscoop each other but they report the same…

If you’re going to be sceptical about it then are you sure you’re not being cynical?

Because when I’ll ask one of those nut jobs who it is then that actually does know the truth, the answer is usually Alex Jones or Foxnews or the intdernet.

With zero scepticism applied.

Because they’re stupid.

Very well said 
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Marki - 5 Sep 2024 7:26 PM
hounddog - 5 Sep 2024 9:53 AM

The Warriors drop from top 8 this season is alot less to do with Curran than you would think. He was scarcely used there even last year when they were going great guns.

A bigger influence for them was CNK and also SJ. When CNK is on fire, his teams make finals. He is a very influential fullback. Wish we had him actually.

If is more about the judgement of the coach and the club. 

They do have Mitch Barnett. And they signed Capewell.

Most clubs could use a player like Curran in the top 30.

The Warriors side is a real mix of older players close to the end of their career and young players starting out.

They could do with some experienced players who will be around for a few years.
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Maybe our reserve grade side should challenge the Broncos to a game...

I might be able to Mock them into life.
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My faith in the BDP is restored because of Zef and Marki in agreement over skepticism. You boys grew up. Well done. 
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hounddog - 5 Sep 2024 7:47 PM
Marki - 5 Sep 2024 7:26 PM

If is more about the judgement of the coach and the club. 

They do have Mitch Barnett. And they signed Capewell.

Most clubs could use a player like Curran in the top 30.

The Warriors side is a real mix of older players close to the end of their career and young players starting out.

They could do with some experienced players who will be around for a few years.

They also went well last year because of being able to play back at home. Covid kept them in Australia. No family life and other issues. I think them being back at home made a huge difference. 

This year was the ‘comedown’ after that experience. 

zoz2015
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Wow the Gronks look like they have been playing for the wooden spoon over the last month . How have they fallen so quick , 
Could not happen to a nicer team and coach . 
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zoz2015 - 5 Sep 2024 9:10 PM
Wow the Gronks look like they have been playing for the wooden spoon over the last month . How have they fallen so quick , 
Could not happen to a nicer team and coach . 

I've rarely seen a game if footy that was so one-sided right from the kick off.

The Gronks couldn't even manage to complete for 5 minutes.
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hounddog - 5 Sep 2024 9:43 PM
zoz2015 - 5 Sep 2024 9:10 PM

I've rarely seen a game if footy that was so one-sided right from the kick off.

The Gronks couldn't even manage to complete for 5 minutes.

They switched off last week and couldn't wait till their season was over...

They've had a real hangover from last season. 
Guys like Walsh, Mam, Walters etc havent had good seasons and their '23 run was on the back of those three players. Their depth was also tested this year and at a time when they couldnt afford to lose games.

I expect a bounce back next season but some if their players need some discipline in their preparation. It actually wouldnt hurt them if the NRL stopped giving them Friday games. Theyve become too comfortable in that timeslot and become complacent in their prep. 
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Without Burton this weekend it will be tough- we have very little X factor - sexton will have to really add even more to his already good involvement. Expecting a big game from mahony. Hutch may be ok in defence but adds zero in attack- hope Ciraldo has something up his sleeve like a late Taffe inclusion. Otherwise it will be a tackle-athon and boring. We will find out how much we rely on Burton’s kicking -  it will be interesting which sides kiraz and critto play- does Ciraldo help skelton ( who last week was distracted at the bank counting his tigers money)by putting Critta back to right centre or help hutch and JAC on the left
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dogdoctor - 6 Sep 2024 8:24 AM
Without Burton this weekend it will be tough- we have very little X factor - sexton will have to really add even more to his already good involvement. Expecting a big game from mahony. Hutch may be ok in defence but adds zero in attack- hope Ciraldo has something up his sleeve like a late Taffe inclusion. Otherwise it will be a tackle-athon and boring. We will find out how much we rely on Burton’s kicking -  it will be interesting which sides kiraz and critto play- does Ciraldo help skelton ( who last week was distracted at the bank counting his tigers money)by putting Critta back to right centre or help hutch and JAC on the left

This is a critical game for us.

Old man Bennett showed how it can be done moving Hammer to centre and Avo to 5/8.

Sometimes a coach has to roll the dice and do something different in a critical game. 

I have got my ideas on team selection. Hutch and Skelton are not in my side.

If you watch the first 10 mins of the Canberra game, we started with a lot of energy. Last game was a flat bumbling start from us, we started the second half better but gave Manly too much start and too much ball in the first half. 

Our left side defence was also well off most of the game in particular Kiks and Xerri.

If we get back to the energy levels against Canberra and the execution against the Broncos, that is the best we can be.

The Cows are similar to Manly, last game was ordinary, but they are an inconsistent side with a lot of attacking weapons. 

Manly and the Cows are usually ordinary in defence , but they defended better than expected against us.

I think that it will come down to the start and posession, hopefully if we start with energy the crowd can help get us  >50% possession in the first half. 
Edited
Last Week by hounddog
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dogdoctor - 6 Sep 2024 8:24 AM
Without Burton this weekend it will be tough- we have very little X factor - sexton will have to really add even more to his already good involvement. Expecting a big game from mahony. Hutch may be ok in defence but adds zero in attack- hope Ciraldo has something up his sleeve like a late Taffe inclusion. Otherwise it will be a tackle-athon and boring. We will find out how much we rely on Burton’s kicking -  it will be interesting which sides kiraz and critto play- does Ciraldo help skelton ( who last week was distracted at the bank counting his tigers money)by putting Critta back to right centre or help hutch and JAC on the left

We dont lose much with Burton out other than kicking. His running game has been improving but hes still not making the same line break numbers as other 5/8ths in the comp.

His long kicks out of danger however are highly valuable to this team, who dont really make many metres from our sets. So someone needs to step up and either kick us out if trouble well, or we need to make good metres from sets.

Hutch is a better ball-player than Burton but was guilty if passing too early in the weeks before he was dropped for Sexton. 

The key to beating the Cows will be limiting the impact of Drinkwater (one of my favourite players), Dearden and Holmes. If we can keep these guys quiet, i reckon we keep them to no more than 3 tries and that should be enough for us to stay in the contest and win.
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Why in this day and age with 5G and all the other crap, does my phone not recognise the differrence between "of" and "if"??

This auto correct is killimg me
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Marki - 6 Sep 2024 12:54 PM
dogdoctor - 6 Sep 2024 8:24 AM

We dont lose much with Burton out other than kicking. His running game has been improving but hes still not making the same line break numbers as other 5/8ths in the comp.

His long kicks out of danger however are highly valuable to this team, who dont really make many metres from our sets. So someone needs to step up and either kick us out if trouble well, or we need to make good metres from sets.

Hutch is a better ball-player than Burton but was guilty if passing too early in the weeks before he was dropped for Sexton. 

The key to beating the Cows will be limiting the impact of Drinkwater (one of my favourite players), Dearden and Holmes. If we can keep these guys quiet, i reckon we keep them to no more than 3 tries and that should be enough for us to stay in the contest and win.

I think Hayward went well when moved to 5/8 and IMO he has better playmaking skills than Hutch. 

I am basing this mainly on Hayward playing in the halves in the lower grades   he set up some good trys with passes and kicks. 

Hayward is a good defender,  Hutch is also an active high workrate defended with a bigger body, Hutch does miss more tackles than we would expect.  Hayward is a bit of an unknown quantity defending on the edge, but overall is a good defender.

If Clark plays instead of Skelton  he might have a long general play kick, often good goal kickers can kick long.

Burton's running game is a threat, Hutch is the easiest ball runner in the NRL to defend.

I am expecting Cirro to make conservative ream selections,  but I also think that if he does, we might regret it,  this week and next week. However there is also a chance that energy and linespeed win the day for us. In that regard either Hutch or Hayward can do the job.

We can win this game without Burton and perhaps the next game.  Against a side that finished top 4, we are no chance without Burton. 
Edited
Last Week by hounddog
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