Back on topic guys.

I think Fozz was just showing his national pride. But I think it's a bit rich to call for Pim's head if his team sheet isn't approved by a comittee. A bit silly really - like state level club politics.

+1 And that's why passion has its place...but calm heads usually prevail...not apathetic pricks like Verbeek

Seeing how you are so interested in speaking for these people, I'll ask you why he was wrong about Jedinak starting his professional career in the A-League. Go on, little buddy, ask your big brother why he was wrong.

You simply can't claim that A-League have produced any of these players, even the ones who begun their senior career in the A-League because that's not where players develop. My learned friend Arthur can back me up on that.

How is it different? Did I ever say that the A-League clubs should have produced someone at this WC? No, that was said by someone else. It just conveniently fits the narrative youhave built for yourself.

One thing that the players will always do is give 100%, there's no doubt about that. Whether they're the right players (from those available, of course), the formation and system they play, the organisation - that is ALL the coaches fault.

The fact is that they were NOT the right players in the right positions.

I don't like the way Foz goes about himself, he has a short temper and just snaps. That's why he says stupid stuff like suggesting some kind of panel yada yada. That comes BEFORE the coach is appointed, not at the World Cup. A coach, once in the position, needs to know that they're supported. Whether it's good or shit is something we have to live with at that point unfortunately. The f*ck up on FFAs behalf came when they appointed him.

You and me both.

It's only grass roots football now because of what's come before it. Sydney United, Marconi... fuck... pick... any former NSL club... they all developed their own juniors. They continue to develop juniors. They're called -wait for it- junior teams. They were set up to get the players to go from junior football to senior football. They used to bear all the financial burden of finding players. The ones that slipped through the cracks did so because of the scope of development and the administration of the league.

I think it's offensive to assume that the State League clubs exist to bring players to the national level. You are right that this is view of the FFA, but it's an unjust situation that exploits these clubs- and not just former NSL clubs either. The clubs exist as their own financial and historical entities, to play football at their highest level. The onus isn't on the state league to prop up the A-League.

Edited by jmars: 15/6/2010 10:43:12 PM

Agree re foz. I'd equate foz's regular critical comment to a political party in opposition. They can say what they like, criticise all they like and make ridiculous claims all they like and they will still not be called to act upon their rhetoric while not in power. Fozzie can always be the worlds #1 coach with unsurpassed knowledge, experience and ability, all from the comfort of a chair and well aware he will never be forced to back up his rhetoric with action.

If Craig Moore's performances are him giving 100% then he needs to give up and get himself a zimmer frame. He's not up to it anymore no matter how hard he tries. And I don't believe they're giving 100% because they've lost confidence in Verbeek and now don't believe in his tactics. And with good reason.

Of course they weren't the right players in the right positions. Playing Cahill up front so we were effectively playing 4-6-0 (which I said we'd play against the Germans back when the draw came out) was not the answer and made us look worse than if we actually had a target up front. It also would have meant that Cahill wasn't being constantly targetted by Badsturber and probably wouldn't have been sent off.

I don't like Foster's approach either. He thinks he's the godfather of australian football. 'The Boss' if you will. But he's not nearly objective enough and isn't willing to listen to reason. His temper gets in the way of rationality as you see in the video and he fails to take into account (as I've pointed out) that better teams have been made to look worse by Germany and it could have been far, far worse if it weren't for the players selected giving their all, bar Moore who looked more interested in setting up a picnic rug somewhere around the penalty spot.

The FFA made a shocking mistake in appointing Verbeek, and I'd go so far as to say that Farina was a better coach. Verbeek's incompetence has set australian football back 10 years and we need a superb performance from a quality coach in the asian cup to make up fot this. Anything less than the semi finals will be an abysmal failure.

That's not the point here. But regardless of that, as we've said the league simply isn't old enough to be producing players yet. The clubs need to be in financial positions to set up the academies you talk about to develop these players. This kind of money is going to have to come from the FFA and it's going to take another decade to establish. And then another decade to bear fruits. But we're half-way there now with the NYL developing and players like Gan, Kruse, Zullo, Oar and Langerak coming to the fore and moving overseas, these players are moving through the system and it's starting to bring rewards.

In 2 yrs Pim has been in the job he hasnt even developed one player in our team.Look under Hidink Wilkshire camed out a better player Emerton etc.

In some regards you're right, but the most important thing for the FFA is keeping these state league clubs involved in the development and football in general in the country though. They do invest a lot of money in the sport and as long as there are players from these clubs playing in the national team, you can't ignore the fact that in introducing academies you're going to suddenly crush the (now) main purpose for the existance of state league teams.

Probably the smartest thing Fozz has ever said.

"We will always die on our feet rather than live on our knees. That's the Australian way"

Gotta say, that sums it up perfectly.

It's also why football has struggled so much in this country. If we want the general Aus public to enjoy and follow football then we have to play the way Australians will be proud. This game was not a proud moment, not because we lost, but the way we lost.

By the same token, in qualifying we won but it was HOW we won, winning poorly, that was the problem.

http://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/video/267367/Socceroos-panel-chat-pt-1/

http://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/video/267372/Socceroos-panel-chat-pt-2

The players were given the day after the German game off? What the?

Les - "Pim needs to forget about the Science Fiction."

I read somewhere they were back at training within 12 hours of the game..and there was footage of them training on TV.

Foz suggestions are those of a peanut...and 4 days before a must win game at the absolute highest level.

Edited by AndyRoo: 16-6-2010 12:00:36 오전

According to an interview today, the team jet had problems and didn't arrive at camp till 9am the following day. Bit hard to train when awake all night. Not that they would have as for obvious reasons it's normal practice to have a light recovery day following a game.

Edited by skeptic: 16/6/2010 12:03:41 AM

Footage of them training on tv was probably a file tape. After that performance I'd be training the lads behind closed doors.

Foster has always picked the worst times to attack people. And although it was certainly heartfelt it was rather unwise IMO.

Hmm well Fozz has gone on about that panel idea of his for ages and yeah, it's driven inpart by his hardly concealed PFA kind of agenda bias. Even though he wasn't great, it was still good when Branko Culina was an analyst with SBS' coverage, because he helped balance out the perspective with he being a coach. Foz has and will never likely be, an elite level coach. And not that, that is necessary when it comes to being a 'football analyst,' I can certainly appreciate the perspective of former elite coaches (Ange ASIDE), when the comes to football analysis.

Anyway, there certainly appear to be some chronic things wrong, but again, I also agree with those who say not to blow this too out of proportion. Germany and that 'red card' certainly exacerbated our weaknesses. We could all see why Verbeek chose to move onto Morocco, to run their 'youth set up' of all roles (rather than a senior role - Eric Gerets, a guy who would've made an ace Socceroos coach candidate, is their senior NT's coach). He even suggested the pressure was alot.

Interesting, I remember hearing and even noticing how Verbeek is certainly more a 'player's coach' if that makes sense. Certainly he's quite a departure from the Hiddink style, when it comes to managing the playing staff. Schwarzer has certainly flourished during the qualification period, perhaps thanks inpart due to the assurance over his place given by Verbeek (Unlike Hiddink who played he and Kalac off against each other and that infamous switch for the Croatia game). Interesting though, in recent times how Schwarzer suggested Hiddink was some what conciliatory with him, when they met in the EPL, though it's easy too after the fact (One wonders if Hiddink would do any different in hindsight, and perhaps with Kalac's mistake, yeah, though that aside, unlikely). Verbeek's approach in this area has also seen us sway some youngsters back into our NT fold, guys like Rhys Williams, Dario Vidosic and Shane Lowry. His approach also tolerated Viduka's long stalling over his NT future, where surely a Hiddink more disciplinarian like character would've forced Dukes' hand alot sooner.

Qualification was one thing, but this WC camp/lead up has been somewhat of a contrast - Prep under Hiddink was like a fortress and things were tight and quiet. It was like 'Bootcamp Hiddink.' And player comments to the media were all quite restricted/limited at their isolated location. But under Verbeek we've had problems with our training base and have very publically seen our side's change in tactical approach against the Dutch and US, which has been somewhat concerning, especially when the US punished us for it. Now granted South Africa is NO Germany when it comes to facilities, so we can't help that soo much, but the players have been making comments and Pim has, and not to mention all our comments about 'the ball,' especially from Schwarzer and co, POST that US loss. One reflects if such excuse making etc... blame on the ball, would've been allowed during Camp Hiddink? That's kind of hindsight of me though, as I was taking that all for granted and just hoping for the best, come Germany, even despite the concerning performances against NZ and the US especially.

I suppose as Pim himself has kind of suggested, we still have two games to pull that rabbit from the hat - we certainly need to, to get the six points. But I must get this out of the way now - Harry this, Harry that! Harry alone will not save us - but having him in there will certainly help! Throw Kennedy in there too and sort out that left side (Don't have Culina on the left flank!).



In regards to the off topic discussion over developing talent - There's nothing wrong with the State League clubs producing talent who then go onto the A-League - Infact it's natural and to be encouraged, it's part of the player development pathway and it's the very point of the A-League. What should the players just stay in the State League, should they leave straight from State League to Europe (Like some do)?

The only matter of dispute in that regard in the level of compensation and yes, that flat $3k compensation fee probably needs adjustment for purposes of fairer compensation.

Edited by GloryPerth: 16/6/2010 12:45:21 AM

So by produced you mean that an A-league club should be the "first" club they have played for? The A-league has been around for five years, most professional footballers start playing football at about the age of 6. Hence, by my math, for the A-league to officially "produce" a player by your stringent standards, we should have an 11 year old playing for the Socceroos. Since we don't, the A-league has failed.

Let me justify my interpretation of produced...

Who the fuck was Oar, Jedinak, Vidosic, Ruka etc before they played in the A-league?

Indeed. Produced could have possibly been interchanged with Developed.
Still, this saga is a good example of the issues with language in electronic forms.

To be competely honest, no football club has ever "produced" a player, their parents do the producing... matter of fact I wouldn't mind doing some producing right now.

Its 9.30 in the morning:shock:

...I'm a morning person!

Half an hour, not bad :P:lol:

Agree with this 100%

With regard to the team not training the day afterwards, I believe they had an afternoon/evening training session, but most of the day was wiped out because they only left to go back to their training camp at 6am due to a problem with their private jet.

I'm no fan of Pim's but this is clearly something out of his control.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....this has got to be the stupidist thing i have ever read...

1) so its fine to go in there expecting to lose, who gives a shit that we lost, we expected it. hey let them score 6 goals why not, we dont expect to win.

worst fucking attitude ever.

2) losing 4-0 is going to turn off every supporter.

3) well arent you dumb. backinga guy who just lost 4-0 over a guy who is making the most sense right now.

4) yeah, we qualified top of asia, but lets face it, the opposition were crap quality. we got shown for what we are and have been under verbeek against germany. we could easily have lost more games in qualifying but we played weak opposition.

i respect foster for saying this. its right, pim has messed us up and set us back.