afromanGT
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Quote:If you're prepared to spend $100k + on training it then you should spend the money to care for it in ill health. You have to remember though that to these people it's a business. These horses are bred for purpose and if they're no longer making money off the horse it no longer has any use to them. That's the harsh reality. Also, I said before, a broken leg to a horse is more or less the worst injury that it can suffer, short of a heart attack or stroke.
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SlyGoat36
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afromanGT wrote:SlyGoat36 wrote:Got to love the mentality on this forum. Racism and homophobia are frowned on yet animal cruelty is all good. Let me ask you this: What's more cruel? Taking a horse which is bred and trained to race , it suffers a broken leg, making it suffer through rehabilitation, where it loses weight and muscle mass, doesn't eat properly and spends the next 6 months in distress and costs the owners ~$100,000 for it to never race again. Or putting it out of its misery. I think if you own a horse or any animal you have a responsibility to unsure its health and well being. If you're prepared to spend $100k + on training it then you should spend the money to care for it in ill health. Though in saying this I don't like the horse racing at all, the whole thing is cruel.
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afromanGT
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People don't realise that a broken leg is pretty much the worst injury a horse can suffer short of a heart attack.
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Scoll
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I haven't been back here since I posted that blog, but is anyone seriously suggesting that putting Verema down wasn't the humane course of action? The animal ethics issue with racing animals for entertainment is the increased risk of injury that results in euthanasia being required, not putting them down once they have suffered an injury that significantly reduces their capacity for a full and happy life.
That aside, I had an opportunity to discuss the health impacts of horse racing with a veterinarian friend who suggested that whilst he opposes a lot of horse racing practices from an animal welfare perspective there is no evidence that EIPH (the lung bleeding mentioned in the blog I posted) is actually painful, detrimental or problematic in any way for the horse, or that it doesn't happen in a horses natural wild behaviour (as no-one has studied wild/free-roaming horses post intensive exercise to identify the rates, and wild horses are willing to run intensely without a survival prompt [eg: predator]) For all we know, it could be no different to humans getting a nosebleed whilst exerting themselves (uncomfortable, but not painful or risky.)
So there's a bit of a balance to that emotive piece for you.
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afromanGT
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SlyGoat36 wrote:Got to love the mentality on this forum. Racism and homophobia are frowned on yet animal cruelty is all good. Let me ask you this: What's more cruel? Taking a horse which is bred and trained to race , it suffers a broken leg, making it suffer through rehabilitation, where it loses weight and muscle mass, doesn't eat properly and spends the next 6 months in distress and costs the owners ~$100,000 for it to never race again. Or putting it out of its misery.
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SlyGoat36
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Got to love the mentality on this forum. Racism and homophobia are frowned on yet animal cruelty is all good.
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afromanGT
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benelsmore wrote:afromanGT wrote:RedKat wrote:pv4 wrote:Is it cruelty though? They'd suffer a lot with only 3 legs. Putting them out of their misery seems reasonable to me Its cruelty that the horse has been pushed so far out of its limits that its been put in a situation where having it put down is the nicest thing to do Clearly it's not "out of its limits" if other horses have demonstrated it to be achievable. Not to mention that there were multiple qualification events it had to make it through in order to compete which it clearly survived. It sucks, but it's a fact of the "Sport". They can spend literally hundreds of thousands of dollars rehabilitating the horse for it to never race again, or they can just put it out of its misery. I'm not an activist for animals or anything I do follow horse racing but imagine if it was the jockey that was horribly injured. It's amazing how quickly the scenario changes when you replace the horse with a human. I dislike the common view that horses (or other animals) are dispensible. If it cost the same amount to heal a horse's broken leg as it would to heal a jockey's broken leg you might have a point. But you're talking literally 100 times the cost for a racehorse and the Jockey will be far more effectively rehabilitated than a horse will be. You'd be literally rehabilitating the horse and spending the money for it to never race at the same level again.
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BETHFC
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Cromulent wrote:benelsmore wrote:afromanGT wrote:RedKat wrote:pv4 wrote:Is it cruelty though? They'd suffer a lot with only 3 legs. Putting them out of their misery seems reasonable to me Its cruelty that the horse has been pushed so far out of its limits that its been put in a situation where having it put down is the nicest thing to do Clearly it's not "out of its limits" if other horses have demonstrated it to be achievable. Not to mention that there were multiple qualification events it had to make it through in order to compete which it clearly survived. It sucks, but it's a fact of the "Sport". They can spend literally hundreds of thousands of dollars rehabilitating the horse for it to never race again, or they can just put it out of its misery. I'm not an activist for animals or anything I do follow horse racing but imagine if it was the jockey that was horribly injured. It's amazing how quickly the scenario changes when you replace the horse with a human. I dislike the common view that horses (or other animals) are dispensible. Yeah I agree, if the jockey had fallen and broken his leg he should be euthanised too :roll: Well you missed the point entirely, that much is obvious.
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Cromulent
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benelsmore wrote:afromanGT wrote:RedKat wrote:pv4 wrote:Is it cruelty though? They'd suffer a lot with only 3 legs. Putting them out of their misery seems reasonable to me Its cruelty that the horse has been pushed so far out of its limits that its been put in a situation where having it put down is the nicest thing to do Clearly it's not "out of its limits" if other horses have demonstrated it to be achievable. Not to mention that there were multiple qualification events it had to make it through in order to compete which it clearly survived. It sucks, but it's a fact of the "Sport". They can spend literally hundreds of thousands of dollars rehabilitating the horse for it to never race again, or they can just put it out of its misery. I'm not an activist for animals or anything I do follow horse racing but imagine if it was the jockey that was horribly injured. It's amazing how quickly the scenario changes when you replace the horse with a human. I dislike the common view that horses (or other animals) are dispensible. Yeah I agree, if the jockey had fallen and broken his leg he should be euthanised too
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chillbilly
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Quote:Why they had to kill broken down Melbourne Cup horse Verema
THE horrific leg injury suffered by Verema in the Melbourne Cup yesterday meant that veterinarians had no alternative but to have the mare humanely destroyed.
Verema had suffered a shocking break to her near-foreleg cannon bone, the injury so catastrophic that expert veterinary opinion determined she be put down immediately rather than suffer unnecessarily.
This may seem a harsh, even primitive option but really there is no other alternative.
Over the decades, veterinary science has tried many different methods to attempt to save a horse's life after it suffers a similar leg break.
For example, some very valuable stallions, worth up to $100 million, have suffered similar injuries and efforts have been made to save their lives by placing the injured horse in a flotation tank for weeks, even months, to take the weight off the injured leg and assist the healing process.
Verema at home in her stables. Picture: Twitter Verema at home in her stables. Picture: Twitter Source: Supplied However, the very physiological make-up of the thoroughbred means it has to move either by walking or running to assist breathing and for their physical well-being.
When a 500kg animal is immobilised for an extended period, invariably that horse will suffer terribly because it does not eat well, physically loses conditions (fitness) and has to endure shocking pain.
An injured racehorse with this sort of injury literally dies on front of your eyes if attempts are made to keep it alive.
Veterinarians are first and foremost animal lovers and they do not wish for any horse to suffer in agony.
If the leg break is severe enough, then the only humane thing to do is to put that horse down. http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/why-they-had-to-kill-broken-down-melbourne-cup-horse-verema/story-fnh4jt60-1226753979064
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BETHFC
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afromanGT wrote:RedKat wrote:pv4 wrote:Is it cruelty though? They'd suffer a lot with only 3 legs. Putting them out of their misery seems reasonable to me Its cruelty that the horse has been pushed so far out of its limits that its been put in a situation where having it put down is the nicest thing to do Clearly it's not "out of its limits" if other horses have demonstrated it to be achievable. Not to mention that there were multiple qualification events it had to make it through in order to compete which it clearly survived. It sucks, but it's a fact of the "Sport". They can spend literally hundreds of thousands of dollars rehabilitating the horse for it to never race again, or they can just put it out of its misery. I'm not an activist for animals or anything I do follow horse racing but imagine if it was the jockey that was horribly injured. It's amazing how quickly the scenario changes when you replace the horse with a human. I dislike the common view that horses (or other animals) are dispensible.
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99 Problems
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Roar_Brisbane wrote:RedKat wrote:afromanGT wrote:RedKat wrote:pv4 wrote:Is it cruelty though? They'd suffer a lot with only 3 legs. Putting them out of their misery seems reasonable to me Its cruelty that the horse has been pushed so far out of its limits that its been put in a situation where having it put down is the nicest thing to do Clearly it's not "out of its limits" if other horses have demonstrated it to be achievable. Not to mention that there were multiple qualification events it had to make it through in order to compete which it clearly survived. It sucks, but it's a fact of the "Sport". They can spend literally hundreds of thousands of dollars rehabilitating the horse for it to never race again, or they can just put it out of its misery. Theres variation in horses just like variation in humans. Whilst many of the other horses were in their limits (but you could argue with the article i posted describing that 90% endure lung bleeding- so many horses may have endured this or similar injuries but it wasnt as visible) this horse was clearly pushed to the extreme for peoples enjoyment and had to be killed because it had suffered such a cruel injury (again not saying it shouldnt have bene put down but rather should never have been put in a situation where being put down was teh only humane option) But it's not like the horse was picked off a farm for this one off race. It's been breed for racing, its spent its whole life racing and training. It got the all clear from the vets prior to the race and had spent months preparing for this race. Its placed at this distance before and won a couple of races at 3000 metres, in fact it won its last two races. It was a high quality horse cut down by a freak accident. This. When a footballer breaks his leg has he been cruely pushed beyond his limits for our entertainment. Also not sure people realise how critical the racing industry is to the country's economy
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Roar_Brisbane
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RedKat wrote:afromanGT wrote:RedKat wrote:pv4 wrote:Is it cruelty though? They'd suffer a lot with only 3 legs. Putting them out of their misery seems reasonable to me Its cruelty that the horse has been pushed so far out of its limits that its been put in a situation where having it put down is the nicest thing to do Clearly it's not "out of its limits" if other horses have demonstrated it to be achievable. Not to mention that there were multiple qualification events it had to make it through in order to compete which it clearly survived. It sucks, but it's a fact of the "Sport". They can spend literally hundreds of thousands of dollars rehabilitating the horse for it to never race again, or they can just put it out of its misery. Theres variation in horses just like variation in humans. Whilst many of the other horses were in their limits (but you could argue with the article i posted describing that 90% endure lung bleeding- so many horses may have endured this or similar injuries but it wasnt as visible) this horse was clearly pushed to the extreme for peoples enjoyment and had to be killed because it had suffered such a cruel injury (again not saying it shouldnt have bene put down but rather should never have been put in a situation where being put down was teh only humane option) But it's not like the horse was picked off a farm for this one off race. It's been breed for racing, its spent its whole life racing and training. It got the all clear from the vets prior to the race and had spent months preparing for this race. Its placed at this distance before and won a couple of races at 3000 metres, in fact it won its last two races. It was a high quality horse cut down by a freak accident.
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afromanGT
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RedKat wrote:afromanGT wrote:RedKat wrote:pv4 wrote:Is it cruelty though? They'd suffer a lot with only 3 legs. Putting them out of their misery seems reasonable to me Its cruelty that the horse has been pushed so far out of its limits that its been put in a situation where having it put down is the nicest thing to do Clearly it's not "out of its limits" if other horses have demonstrated it to be achievable. Not to mention that there were multiple qualification events it had to make it through in order to compete which it clearly survived. It sucks, but it's a fact of the "Sport". They can spend literally hundreds of thousands of dollars rehabilitating the horse for it to never race again, or they can just put it out of its misery. Theres variation in horses just like variation in humans. Whilst many of the other horses were in their limits (but you could argue with the article i posted describing that 90% endure lung bleeding- so many horses may have endured this or similar injuries but it wasnt as visible) this horse was clearly pushed to the extreme for peoples enjoyment and had to be killed because it had suffered such a cruel injury (again not saying it shouldnt have bene put down but rather should never have been put in a situation where being put down was teh only humane option) Any major injury a racehorse suffers is going to see it put down because it's cheaper than investing in money in a horse that will probably never race again.
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afromanGT
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RedKat wrote:pv4 wrote:Is it cruelty though? They'd suffer a lot with only 3 legs. Putting them out of their misery seems reasonable to me Its cruelty that the horse has been pushed so far out of its limits that its been put in a situation where having it put down is the nicest thing to do Clearly it's not "out of its limits" if other horses have demonstrated it to be achievable. Not to mention that there were multiple qualification events it had to make it through in order to compete which it clearly survived. It sucks, but it's a fact of the "Sport". They can spend literally hundreds of thousands of dollars rehabilitating the horse for it to never race again, or they can just put it out of its misery.
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Roar_Brisbane
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StreetzFC wrote:Today was the first time I bet money on a sporting event.
My money was on Verema... Only up from here. ;)
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StreetzFC
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Today was the first time I bet money on a sporting event.
My money was on Verema...
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Mister Football
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are horses being denied the opportunity to lead more fulfilling lives?
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Scoll
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This is only a blog, but a small amount of research has gone into it. It is worth reading, especially the bit about the prevalence of exercise-induced pulmonary bleeding in horses. "Dilettantiquity" wrote: [size=8]Wastage, Bleeders, and Murky Data in the Horse Racing Industry[/size]Hey Australia, it’s Melbourne Cup Day. It turns out that it’s actually quite hard to find well-researched information on issues of animal welfare in the racing industry. All credit to organisations who lobby against cruelty in the industry, but their sites aren’t always the best of source of resources, and at times show a misunderstanding of the underlying statistics. Given it’s Cup Day, I’ve put together an overview of some of the studies I’ve encountered during a quick skim of the literature. Bear in mind that I haven’t looked in detail into the authors, nor methodologies used in the studies, so cite with caution. The two issues that immediately arose when I ran a search were ‘wastage’ (the commercial term for horses lost to the racing industry) and ‘bleeders’ (horses suffering from exercise-induced pulmonary hemorrhage or ‘EIPH’). One of the most concerning aspects in my opinion is how just murky and under-scrutinised this whole industry appears to be in this respect – pinning down solid, credible data is no simple task, even where suspicions have been raised that the industry may be the horsey equivalent of a puppy mill. For example, there’s very little information relating to the origin of horses sent to abattoirs. This in in part due to an glaring absence of record keeping, the complication of abattoirs frequently procuring horses via auctions rather than directly from from racing stables, and the fact that some of the relevant data (where it exists) is considered to be commercial in confidence. An estimated 80 per cent of those horses that actually end up on the racetrack suffer EIPH – these horses are known in the industry as ‘bleeders’. ( Hinchcliff, K.W., et al., Association between exercise-induced pulmonary hemorrhage and performance in Thoroughbred racehorses. Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association, 2005. 227: p. 768-774.) This is quite an interesting one statistically, as horses can either bleed from the windpipe or in the deeper lung area, with some commentary noting the former applies to ‘around half’ of all racehorses, and the latter up to 90 per cent. Wikipedia references studies stating the proportion of racehorses suffering EIPH at some point in their career falls between 40 per cent and 70 per cent. I’m not clear on the number of non-racing horses who suffer from exercise-induced pulmonary hemorrhage, although some of the literature implies it is significantly lower. It’s been estimated “pregnancy in 1000 Thoroughbred Australian mares produces only 300 horses which will actually race”. ( Bourke JM (1995) Wastage in Thoroughbreds. In ‘Proceedings from the Annual Seminar, Equine Branch, NZVA’. Auckland pp. 107-119. Veterinary Continuing Education, Massey University) Where do they go? One of the more nteresting and recent studies in this area – greatly impaired as it was by lack of industry data – is detailed in a 2008 paper published in the Equine Veterinary Journal. Here’s an extract of the relevant section: [size=3] An assessment was also made on the possibility of collecting further data within the abattoir setting. In this study data was collected over three collection dates from 340 horses processed at an Australian abattoir. This occurred between November 2007 and January 2008. The data showed that 59.8% of the horses had a dental age of 7 years with the remainder (40.2%) being > 7 years. Observations of the types of brands present indicated that 52.9% of the horses processed had originated from the racing industry with 40.0% of the sample group carrying a Thoroughbred brand and 12.9% carrying a Standardbred brand. The remainder of the group (47.1%) had no visible brand.
Wastage or horse loss (Jeffcott, 1990; Bailey, 1998) occurs at all stages of the horse’s life, including prior to racing, and it is estimated that pregnancy in 1000 Thoroughbred Australian mares produces only 300 horses which will actually race (Bourke, 1995). Similar pre-racing wastage has been found in Standardbred horses (trotters and pacers). A survey conducted on the 1990 crop of Western Australian Standardbred foals (Dyer, 1998) reported that 29% of foals were unregistered while approximately 26% were registered but never raced. Of the unregistered foals, 25% died or were destroyed and in 13% of cases, the cause of death was deliberate destruction. Of the registered, unraced horses 15% died and deliberate destruction was the cause of death in 12% of cases.
Bourke (1995) has also estimated that approximately 33% of the Thoroughbred population of Victoria may be lost to wastage each year however, these wastage figures include all areas in which horses are lost to the racing industry (e.g. reproductive failure, death of foals, various training and racing injuries and those relinquished for slaughter: Bailey, 1998). Interestingly, a more recent survey of racehorse trainers in the 2002/2003 race year reported similar figures. Hayek et al. (2005) found that the total wastage rate for horses in training or racing was 39% for Thoroughbreds and 38% for Standardbreds. Of the 39% of Thoroughbreds which left a racing stable only 6% were reported to have been sent to a knackery while 17% of Standardbred horses were reported to have been sent to the same destination. However, as the authors noted these figures do not include horses which were sent to a slaughter plant via a more indirect route, that is being sent to auction and purchased by an agent buying horses for slaughter, so the exact number of Thoroughbreds and Standardbreds in the study group which were ultimately slaughtered remains unknown.”
Doughty, A., Cross, N., Robbins, A. and Phillips, C.J.C. 2009. The origin, dentition and foot condition of slaughtered horses in Australia. Equine Veterinary Journal 41, 808-811.[/size] Additionally, some of the literature suggests that horses who are unsuccessful on the racecourse may transition into the more harmful sport jump racing – a spectacle banned in New South Wales, and recommended to be phased out elsewhere by an Australian Parliamentary Inquiry. Clearly, in addition to wastage and health issues, not to mention the subjects of gambling and whipping, there’s also a whole discussion to be had about the ethics of meat production versus the breeding of animals for an entertainment industry and so forth. But, given they’re currently running a Race That Stops A Nation, that’s one for another day.
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pv4
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RedKat wrote:pv4 wrote:Is it cruelty though? They'd suffer a lot with only 3 legs. Putting them out of their misery seems reasonable to me Its cruelty that the horse has been pushed so far out of its limits that its been put in a situation where having it put down is the nicest thing to do What are your thoughts on them being bred for purpose?
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pv4
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Is it cruelty though? They'd suffer a lot with only 3 legs. Putting them out of their misery seems reasonable to me
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Condemned666
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Nothing like a horse race to show how ignorant people treat animals and the concept of life in general
If anyone "doesnt want to know about this", go check out episode 1 in David Milch's (creator of Deadwood) Luck, there is a scene in the first episode where one of the horses breaks its leg in the race, and gets euthanised
Then tell me what you feel about a horse getting put down!
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afromanGT
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pv4 wrote:Roar_Brisbane wrote:sydneycroatia58 wrote:pv4 wrote:Have a mate who is putting close to his life savings on Verema, he's that confident in it. He's on facebook most days with tips, so he's a definite race enthusiast. Will be interesting if it comes off for him! Ouch Think I just read a tweet that the horse was put down. yeah my mate wrote on fb that he wasn't happy the horse broke down. I didn't know that meant he literally got injured or whatever Have they tried calling Triple A?
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pv4
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Roar_Brisbane wrote:sydneycroatia58 wrote:pv4 wrote:Have a mate who is putting close to his life savings on Verema, he's that confident in it. He's on facebook most days with tips, so he's a definite race enthusiast. Will be interesting if it comes off for him! Ouch Think I just read a tweet that the horse was put down. yeah my mate wrote on fb that he wasn't happy the horse broke down. I didn't know that meant he literally got injured or whatever
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Funky Munky
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Had Fiorente, but not enough to cover the rest of my bets. A dollar down at the end of the day.
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MVFCSouthEnder
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Had a trifecta of Fiorente, Dandino and Fawkner at $20, shattered when i found the latter 2 finished 5th and 6th :x
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afromanGT
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pv4 wrote:f1worldchamp wrote:sydneycroatia58 wrote:pv4 wrote:Have a mate who is putting close to his life savings on Verema, he's that confident in it. He's on facebook most days with tips, so he's a definite race enthusiast. Will be interesting if it comes off for him! Ouch He doesn't say how much his life savings was! :lol: he's not happy :lol:
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pv4
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f1worldchamp wrote:sydneycroatia58 wrote:pv4 wrote:Have a mate who is putting close to his life savings on Verema, he's that confident in it. He's on facebook most days with tips, so he's a definite race enthusiast. Will be interesting if it comes off for him! Ouch He doesn't say how much his life savings was! :lol: he's not happy
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Roar_Brisbane
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sydneycroatia58 wrote:pv4 wrote:Have a mate who is putting close to his life savings on Verema, he's that confident in it. He's on facebook most days with tips, so he's a definite race enthusiast. Will be interesting if it comes off for him! Ouch Think I just read a tweet that the horse was put down.
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f1worldchamp
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sydneycroatia58 wrote:pv4 wrote:Have a mate who is putting close to his life savings on Verema, he's that confident in it. He's on facebook most days with tips, so he's a definite race enthusiast. Will be interesting if it comes off for him! Ouch He doesn't say how much his life savings was!
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