Mods please close if this really doesn’t warrent a new thread but I actually want to centralise the discussion based around some new ideas and concepts, and if it would actually work, or flop.

We all know Australian sporting culture knows only one system, a closed shop top tier with centralised funding In a non-competitive salary capped league designed to keep interest in a boring model by sharing a novelty trophy from club to club every 3-5 year cycle. League structures are designed to maximise revenues in this system by having half the teams play off for a post season cup called a finals series, so even if your the 8th best club in the league, you can still be champion. And even if you come last every season you have a safety net of no relegation. The only issue for clubs who struggle financially in this setup is once they fail. They have no where to go, thus fold entirely disengaging entire communities, cities, volunteers, playing, juniors and development pathways that came with it.

Now with an open league system, you would have a competitive open top tier where clubs are now driven to invest in pathways to increase their financial stability, revenue streams, and development pathways and facilities in order to maximise the income they generate to reinvest to either stay in the top tier comfortably, or challenge for the title frequently and be at true pinnacle of the sport in the country. At the bottom, teams would now have every game being a competitive fixture where every game, every second, every point matters in the fight for relegation. Teams are driven to invest in development to onsell. This increase in competitiveness increases passion and talk in fans and media circle therefore automatically giving extra and much needed publicity and promotion to every single game throughout the season. Instead of having 1-3 weeks at the end of the season on back pages, we could see 5-7 weeks of back page news as clubs will be battling relegation during the last 5 rounds of the season, adding much needed interest and hype in the league.

Now this is where it gets interesting.. promotion from the second division.. a new team would be a fresh of breath air, and would increase interest and curiosity amongst media circle and fans. It also increases potential for massive levels of investment in second tier football from new owners wanting to invest in the football ecosystem and gain promotion to a lucrative first tier. This increases development for national teams and gives far more opportunities for youngsters and fringe players and players who see no future in the game from a young age and turn away once they start studying or working because of the limited opportunities in a closed system.

This has me curios. If promotion and relegation actually works in Australian football, and increases huge amounts of investment and capital as a result, would the other codes look at it as a viable option? I can’t really see nrl being feasible outside nsw/qld. But the afl has a strong presence in VFL, SANFL, WAFL and Tasmania.... call me a dreamer but could football actually be the catalyst for a change in mentality in the Australian footballing landscape ?

@RBB Wanderer

I personally don't think its feasible for other codes like AFL or NRL. They simply don't have the player pool, even for the teams they have right now. They are only scraping by and this is by searching for players in Ireland and ex-college players of basketball etc from the US. The talent pool we have in Australia is so much better for football, we just need to give young players and those on the fringes the exposure needed and the opportunity so that they are continually improving. Right now we have talented players in the NPL who simply cant find a spot on a roster only because there are not enough teams. We should be showing a little more faith and confidence in our sport, which is severely lacking at the FFA. You are not going to get the same standards across the board in one swoop. Its about taking that pool of players and developing further until they reach that next level. 

I think if we implemented pro / rel it would be a dynamic game changer for the sport and something which is needed. Other sports will look in envy and are probably praying we don't introduce it, because they know they can't do it. If you plan and do it right it would be amazing. 

We have convinced ourselves its not viable because its not the "Australian way". When in reality what we should be saying is its not the afl/nrl way. 2 codes with shallow talent pools that only people in a few states care for. We have allowed ourselves to be held back by rival sports who have very limited growth potential.

Our game has the opportunity to produce an amazing system where the product is organic all the way through. It would be groundbreaking and really put our code ahead of the game as far as sport in this country goes. Imagine having a system where every single game matters. Whilst we have that you would have afl teams still tanking for draft picks and purposely losing..tell me which game long term would have the brighter future as a spectator sport?

As long as we continue trying to beat the other codes at their own game we wont be going anywhere. Dont think for a second that they arent doing cartwheels at afl and league headquarters knowing that we are trying to produce a product that is a crappier version of what they have. As long as this continues they will always comfortably keep us at arms length.

It's possible

I think it’s wrong to say that Australians only know the closed system.

We have over a million active participants and are football people who know how it works.

It’s a basic finance principle: risk and reward. At the moment, there is no risk or reward since it’s a closed shop.

Although there are plenty of talented NPL players, I believe the pool is even bigger than that. How many good players have given up on the sport purely because the pathways and opportunities were not there? How many good players have given up because football doesn't pay the bills? Cost of living is rising after all, especially in Melbourne and Sydney. With a full pyramid that all changes. The other codes are experiencing very similar issues as the HAL right now. People are bored with the NRL and talk of scrapping the cap was heard yet again with Storm and Sydney dominating grand final appearances for 20 years. The AFL are resorting to free kids tickets on Sundays to bolster declining numbers. Neither code is willing to make major changes though. I don't think they really know what to do. However, football in Australia has the opportunity to recapture those football fans that don't follow the HAL. The fans that follow the epl, serie a, Bundesliga, etc but don't actively follow the HAL. All it takes is to align the sport with the way it operates overseas. Unlike the AFL we are not the pinnacle of the sport worldwide. That means we can no longer ignore the way things are done overseas. P&R is a must for longevity. I think if we look to Japan and how they transitioned we can echo what they did and create a sustainable pyramid. As for other leagues following suit. Highly unlikely. Too many traditionalists running things. Any change, however small, is a major uproar in the AFL.

Of course not

Australia is so absolutely and completely different to every other country in the Whole Fucking World

For many years I was against promotion and relegation in the A-League .
I now believe it is time to start to implement it .
I say "start" because it will take a few years to put things in place.

Two things can happen relatively soon though.
1.Increase the A-League's size to 16 over a few seasons. (4?)
and
2. Set up a second tier National comp.

Whether a second tier is set up in a conference system to cut travel costs or a straight out national comp ...I don't know... but we could have this comp up and running relatively soon  (2020/21 ?).
This comp would need to be a good strong viable comp and should be helped a smuch as possible by A-League heavyweights for many reasons ...but mostly because they may play in it one day !!!
It may not get TV coverage but I am sure other platforms would support it for not too much outlay.

Once we have 14 teams in the A-League make the next two entrants the top two of the second tier with no relegation that season to make 16 teams.
After that its all in . Bottom two of A-League play top two of second tier .
Losers go down .
Can you imagine the interest and passion involved ?

It’s not about whether there is enough players or not although that has some impact, but more about whether the spread of investment and finances are available which they are not. Alternatively we can dream p&r and have a tin pot A-League.

Without a doubt it would work but it needs the right people behind it to implement it. 

I wonder if people asked 'Would a closed shop work in Australia?' when they set up multiple leagues here over the last 40 years. 

At least we have the answer to that question

P&R didn’t work in Australia in the last 40 years except when the game was amateur.

I think the challenge lies with that tricky 2nd division. Hypothetically it could be setup to be closed initially. The problem is, I'm not convinced a 2nd div can grow to the point it needs to without P&R. I reckon that the 2nd div and P&R need to be introduced at the same time, or at the very least have a clear short deadline (eg: 2 years no P&R and then definitely P&R after that). A strict timeline is key here. I just reckon setting up a 2nd div with a loose 'we'll have p&r at some point yet to be determined' attitude simply won't work. I reckon for a 2nd Div to work it really needs that guarantee of promotion and a clear timeline of when it will happen. If that guarantee and timeline is in place clubs can start growing towards something and fans will really get behind their clubs. Otherwise, if we are waiting for a 2nd div to stand on it's own two feet first, that time will never come. The HAL has struggled to grow on it's own, a 2nd div will have an even harder time. There is very little that is exciting about a closed 10 team HAL. There would be even less to be excited about a 8-10 team closed 2nd div. Both the HAL and a 2nd Div need P&R to survive and grow. 

Spot on

Hopefully Steven uses his last board meeting to mandate it.

Fuck would I laugh

and why should the shit A1 team be given help ? 

P & R will work to grow the game in this country ONLY if the 2nd division teams are all fully professional from day 1.
Otherwise it’s pointless.
Nothing else matters. They can be new entities, existing clubs or whatever, they can play on suburban AFL ovals in front of crowds of 100 people.
Once you have a professional second division in place, you will have a pipeline of talent production which will draw in and drive investment which will grow the business (game).

As a trade-off to AL owners to cushion the effect of introducing P&R.
They have been the ones forking out god knows how much over the past 15 seasons.
Further down the track, make it a single game final and make a spectacle of it.
The whole process of full P&R between the AL and 2nd Div like the EPL/EFL could take up to 10 years.
If a 2nd Div was introduced next season I'd give it 5 seasons to establish with maybe promoting ONLY the top team 2-4 times to fill out the AL to 16 teams, whilst at the same time promoting the NPL National Champion into the 2nd Div to replace the team going into the AL.

A major consideration before A-2 can happen is deciding how to align the seasons. It seems extremely unlikely that the A-League will move back to winter (lack of ground availability just for a start) so that means bringing the A-2 season into the summer. That brings its own challenges of the inevitable gap that will happen when (for example) a Heidelberg United finishes its last NPL season in September but then has to wait a full year before starting its first season in A-2.

Its not an insurmountable problem but still one that will need to be addressed. On one hand the time lag will give teams time to get their financial and structural ducks in a row but there is no doubt there will be a whole lot of players cooling their heels for a full year before their first A-2 game.

And then there is the flow on effect when pro-rel is extended downward - the A-2 team potentially facing a playoff against the top A-3 or NPL (whatever it’s called) in April or May when the top lower division team finished their season 6 or more months earlier. Is it realistic that all the levels can somehow be brought into the summer? Probably not.

I love the idea of pro-rel but there’s got to be some hard thinking and planning to get it all to work seamlessly.

P&R would be great to see, creating far more overall interest, but I do feel there are numerous challenges to overcome.

1/ Broadcaster value:
we all know that Fox pulls many strings currently, in terms of where it can extract the most viewers across the main markets of the country. Losing a team in a major market (ie. Brisbane) would be a huge loss, especially if it was replaced by a
Team from a regional city (ie. Wollongong). It would be a risk overall.
2/ Financial model:
The model will need to be reworked to ensure that there is scalability in the costs from both tiers, making it easier for clubs to manage going between the tiers. Without that in place, clubs may fall under a debt trap, maintaining a cost base that can’t be sustained, but limited options to review its ability service the needs of the club in the transition period.
3/ Increased rewards:
Increased prizemoney for strong performance would incentivise clubs to push for higher goals, even in the current structure. At present, there is very little difference between winning and being an also-ran in terms of overall financial reward.
4/ Salary cap:
This would be an interesting one to look at, as many clubs would have to considerably change the way they manage their squad list if a salary cap is maintained. Getting rid of the salary cap may well be looked at more favourably, but some kind of salary floor would likely be maintained, which may differ between the leagues.
5/ Overall financial requirements:
Increasing from 1 tier of 10-12 teams to potentially 2 tiers of 24 teams will see a significant rise in league operational costs, such as travel, referees and other ongoing requirements. Just how the increase in overall revenue plays out to cover this would be important, as the Australian context is very different to European countries in terms of distances to travel.
6/ Where does it stop?:
Would having 2 tiers still be seen as it being a closed shop, with minimal opportunities for clubs to be relegated or promoted to/from state leagues, or additional entrants invited to join the leagues. There will always likely be new interest to participate, but it would be important to ensure the structure is right to facilitate these kinds of changes over time.

Just a few areas there that would have to be worked on to make a sustainable, reward based model work, but I am excited by the opportunities.

I think movement between the 2nd tier and whatever sits below it will resolve itself organically

There's no reason why the 2nd division can't be connected to the NPLs for promo/relegation (just use the current NPL finals format). I would imagine the lower finishing teams in the second tier would be closer to semi-pro than pro and don't understand why all teams need to be professional. 

But as I mentioned in an earlier post somehow the seasons would have to align otherwise the NPL (level 3) team that wins promotion will finish its season in September but have to wait 12 months to join A-2 at the beginning of the next summer season. A playoff situation would be almost impossible as the team from A-3/NPL would have to wait from September until April to find out and play the last placed A-2 team. And the losing team would have to wait another half year for the A-3/NPL season to start again! It just wouldn’t work.

The only answer would be if all three levels play at the same time (summer or winter) but logistically this also very difficult given established seasonal ground access of teams that normally play in winter (NPL and lower) or summer (A-L).

There has to be a way to sort this but those suggesting the move forward to introducing pro-rel must first work out the logistics of aligning the seasons of those that participate.

It can work, but we are a LONG way from it.

P/R from NSL to state leagues was a fail as has been pointed out, so we need a strong 2nd division in place before it can be considered.

And even then most of those clubs would probably not want to be promoted as they cannot afford the losses that would be inflicted on them - it would send them bankrupt.

Until A League clubs are able to be profitable, and the 2nd division is a scenario where a demoted A League club could survive, we simply don't have the landscape.

Unfortunately that's simply not realistic. Waiting for A-league clubs to become profitable is never ever going to happen in a closed league. Only one club currently makes a profit consistently and the others a pretty far off. When compared to other codes, only 1 NRL club makes a profit and half of the AFL clubs make a profit. Closed leagues simple cannot grow to levels where clubs turn a profit consistently. Sporting clubs in general struggle to make a profit no matter what system they are in.

It's simply not possible to create a strong 2nd div on it's own. If the HAL is still on shaky legs, a 2nd div is going to be even worse. It has to be a combined approach with a strict timeline. Waiting for things to happen yields no results. The NLWG needs to construct a solid plan. A is happening 20XX, B is happening 20XY and C is happening 20XZ. Without that nothing will happen. When there are goals and targets in sight, growth happens. When there are no targets, nothing happens as seen in the last 10 years of the HAL. It needs to be approached as a whole and not compartmentalised.

Under a P&R system, promotion is not only dependent on on-field results, it is also dependent on financial stability. If a club can't meet financial standards as of the HAL, they don't get promoted, simple as that. As for relegated teams going bankrupt. That's also a non issue if they are prepared for the transition. Clubs get relegated all over the world all the time. Sure, clubs have gone under, but that number is relatively low. We've had 3 clubs go down in 10 years of a closed league. Heart was also heading in that direction until they found a buyer. A perpetual closed league is going to send clubs under way faster than a league with P&R. If anything it can prevent them from going under by reducing their requirements.

You can't keep doing the same thing and expect a different result. Major change is the only way in which the result can be different.

Only had three go bankrupt.  I don't think so.  I count more

NQ Fury
Gold Coast
NZ Knights
Newcastle 3 times
Adelaide twice
Brisbane 3 times
Melbourne Heart 
Perth Glory twice
Sydney every year (but its get a subsidy from Russia)

Basically, every team has gone broke once except MV

I agree PR would be great for the game.  However, what happens if Perth or Brisbane go down.  You dont have a national league and breach the broadcast contract.  Or over a few years you lose all the teams from say Melbourne or Sydney.  That would at best halve the value of the ALeague to the broadcaster.  Then you have no league.  The league implodes as the remaining teams cant pay the bills.  Where do the new teams play their games?  Where are their stadiums?  What happens if a regional team gets to go up, say the one from Darwin Hellenic Athletic.  Where do they play their games.  Don't just blithely say we will find a solution when the time comes.  These are real issues that need resolution before you implement change.  

If the HAL becomes the property of the clubs I cant see CCM, Newcastle or WP voting for PR.  The value of their investment would be wiped out completely in the event of relegation.  Even AU, BR and PG would have to think hard.  This aint no easy sell to people who could lose everything from it.

However, I think you have already answered the key question.  Since you say that promotion will be down to financial stability, there will be zero promotions.  How many NPL teams have a Russian father in law to pay the bills, or a Chinese billionaire, or Arab petrodollars.  None.

Lets try and set up a viable second division and see if we can introduce PR from there.  I agree goals are required but they have to be achievable.  

What nonsense

Even I wouldn't claim that 

The only thing that I think would need to happen, is clubs stadiums worked out. The roar couldn’t afford to be in a second division and play at Suncorp. So teams would either need their own stadium, or have a clause in their rental agreements to allow them to go to a smaller stadium if they are relegated

An NPL team on top of the 2nd tier and eligible for promotion but without the finances could be easy pickings for a billionaire wanting in on the A League
.
I don't really know who owns or how the NPL clubs are "owned"...by individuals or groups ? Some of them have been around for a while and may be thinking of a possible big retirement pay day if P/R ever comes in

NZ Knights didn't go bankrupt, They just handed there licence back.