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Denny_White
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I hear your concerns, and it sounds like you have strong reservations about the Voice Referendum. It's definitely a contentious issue with valid arguments on both sides.
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Enzo Bearzot
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Accurate video summary of the gross waste of money. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddo2Per9J3QWTF are corporations donating money on changing the Consitution when 60% of their shareholders don't support it?
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Muz
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+x+x+x+x+x[Edit] reading that The Age article further, also confirms that there were huge problems with fraud prevention and detection for $1 billion dolars worth of funding. Lucky they're NOW onto it.... Its a sick joke. So they conducted an 'audit'. Is that what you're saying? Like the 22 the coalition conducted when they were in power. That 22? Time to get your hand off it-your posted "evidence" that was the opposite of what you were trying to prove. They conducted an audit on the fraud prevention system, not on whether $1 billion dolars worth of indigenous programs and policies actually worked. And they found it was completely inadequate to prevent and detect fraud. Meaning there was a lot of fraud. As for the "22 audits", are they the ones that resulted in the Minister saying no-one knew what worked and what didn't. That 22? Fraud. Curruption. No evidence of what works and what doesn't. Like I said its a scandal. Everyone wants to help ie help themsleves to $billlions of dollars of free taxpayer money achieving nothing. Only possible in the public service. Not once did I say there wasn't fraud. I was saying audits have occurred and do occur.(Of money that's spent and of programs.) And how do you know what every single audit of programs ever conducted over decades hasn't determined locally or nationally what works and what doesn't? Have you read them all? Do you honestly think that over the decades this has been going on no one has sat down, from either party mind you, and not said 'let's have a look at what works and what doesn't'?
We're talking about which programs effectively address indigenous socio-economic disadvantage That audit you're referring to looked at if the fraud detection and prevention system worked (it didn't), not which programs worked in correcting socio-econimic disadvantage. If such audits of indigenous programs did happen, why is the Minister responsible saying we don't know what works and what doesn't? Those who benefit most from government programs are the public servants and private company's conducting them, (and the private sector is no better with their CEO's on million dollar salaries). Its not the "clients". Why do you think nothing changes for them after decades and $billions being spent? Honestly? I think its a friggin never ending nightmare that will never be completely fixed because it's unbelievably complicated. And what works here doesn't work there. (Just like the Israel Palestinian thing. In a1000 years they'll still be fighting over there.) Do you actually think all governments enjoy tipping billions upon billions down the drain? According to you they're only doing nothing because it's this great big gravy train that no one wants to get off and no one cares about. What's in it for the government to have decades of failure and wasted billions? (Not to mention the international embarrassment of it all.) Tony Abbot was the Minister for Indigenous affairs. How did that go? Exactly what did he achieve? https://indigenousx.com.au/recounting-abbotts-contributions-to-indigenous-australians/What a guy. Like I said previously.... There are people in the field with 20 years experience that work in one part of the NT for one particular issue that don't have a clue if what they're doing would translate to Bamaga or the Pilbarra. If they don't know I've got no chance of knowing.
I don't have the time or the inclination to spend years to be across this subject. Do you?
I doubt anyone, even experts or people on the ground, know what's best carte blanche for every indigenous problem in Australia.
There's no one answer. Only local programs that succeed or fail and make incremental steps forward. If it were that easy it would have been sorted years ago.
Member since 2008.
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Muz
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+xFirst link is page not found. Second link: EvaluationAllen and Clarke are evaluating the program to assess whether the way we provide primary health care is appropriate and effective.
ie they don't know if it works, what works and what doesn't.
Every link is the same: we don't know if it works yet, we're looking into it though....
Which is why we need your big brain to come in and sort out what billions of dollars and decades of attempts have failed to do. Here's the fixed link. (I think.) https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/indigenous-australians/indigenous-eye-health-measures-2020/And another. https://www.health.gov.au/topics/aboriginal-and-torres-strait-islander-health/related-work
Member since 2008.
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Enzo Bearzot
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First link is page not found. Second link: EvaluationAllen and Clarke are evaluating the program to assess whether the way we provide primary health care is appropriate and effective.
ie they don't know if it works, what works and what doesn't.
Every link is the same: we don't know if it works yet, we're looking into it though....
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Enzo Bearzot
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+x+x+x+x[Edit] reading that The Age article further, also confirms that there were huge problems with fraud prevention and detection for $1 billion dolars worth of funding. Lucky they're NOW onto it.... Its a sick joke. So they conducted an 'audit'. Is that what you're saying? Like the 22 the coalition conducted when they were in power. That 22? Time to get your hand off it-your posted "evidence" that was the opposite of what you were trying to prove. They conducted an audit on the fraud prevention system, not on whether $1 billion dolars worth of indigenous programs and policies actually worked. And they found it was completely inadequate to prevent and detect fraud. Meaning there was a lot of fraud. As for the "22 audits", are they the ones that resulted in the Minister saying no-one knew what worked and what didn't. That 22? Fraud. Curruption. No evidence of what works and what doesn't. Like I said its a scandal. Everyone wants to help ie help themsleves to $billlions of dollars of free taxpayer money achieving nothing. Only possible in the public service. Not once did I say there wasn't fraud. I was saying audits have occurred and do occur.(Of money that's spent and of programs.) And how do you know what every single audit of programs ever conducted over decades hasn't determined locally or nationally what works and what doesn't? Have you read them all? Do you honestly think that over the decades this has been going on no one has sat down, from either party mind you, and not said 'let's have a look at what works and what doesn't'?
We're talking about which programs effectively address indigenous socio-economic disadvantage That audit you're referring to looked at if the fraud detection and prevention system worked (it didn't), not which programs worked in correcting socio-econimic disadvantage. If such audits of indigenous programs did happen, why is the Minister responsible saying we don't know what works and what doesn't? Those who benefit most from government programs are the public servants and private company's conducting them, (and the private sector is no better with their CEO's on million dollar salaries). Its not the "clients". Why do you think nothing changes for them after decades and $billions being spent?
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Muz
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Here's another list of programs. Your thoughts on what works and what doesn't? Everyone working in these programs have their hand in the till do they? https://www.health.gov.au/topics/aboriginal-and-torres-strait-islander-health/related-work?sort_by=title&sort_order=ASC&page=0
Member since 2008.
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Muz
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You're not looking very hard for evidence. Here's an audit. https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/indigenous-australians/indigenous-eye-health-measures-2020/summary.This is the fourth annual report on the Indigenous eye health measures. The measures cover the prevalence of eye health conditions, diagnosis and treatment services, the eye health workforce and outreach services. The report provides an evidence base for monitoring changes in Indigenous eye health over time, access to and use of eye health services, and for identifying gaps in service delivery.
Here's another. https://www.health.gov.au/our-work/indigenous-australians-health-programme
Member since 2008.
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Muz
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+x+x+x[Edit] reading that The Age article further, also confirms that there were huge problems with fraud prevention and detection for $1 billion dolars worth of funding. Lucky they're NOW onto it.... Its a sick joke. So they conducted an 'audit'. Is that what you're saying? Like the 22 the coalition conducted when they were in power. That 22? Time to get your hand off it-your posted "evidence" that was the opposite of what you were trying to prove. They conducted an audit on the fraud prevention system, not on whether $1 billion dolars worth of indigenous programs and policies actually worked. And they found it was completely inadequate to prevent and detect fraud. Meaning there was a lot of fraud. As for the "22 audits", are they the ones that resulted in the Minister saying no-one knew what worked and what didn't. That 22? Fraud. Curruption. No evidence of what works and what doesn't. Like I said its a scandal. Everyone wants to help ie help themsleves to $billlions of dollars of free taxpayer money achieving nothing. Only possible in the public service. Not once did I say there wasn't fraud. I was saying audits have occurred and do occur.(Of money that's spent and of programs.) And how do you know what every single audit of programs ever conducted over decades hasn't determined locally or nationally what works and what doesn't? Have you read them all? Do you honestly think that over the decades this has been going on no one has sat down, from either party mind you, and not said 'let's have a look at what works and what doesn't'?
Member since 2008.
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Enzo Bearzot
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+x+x[Edit] reading that The Age article further, also confirms that there were huge problems with fraud prevention and detection for $1 billion dolars worth of funding. Lucky they're NOW onto it.... Its a sick joke. So they conducted an 'audit'. Is that what you're saying? Like the 22 the coalition conducted when they were in power. That 22? Time to get your hand off it-your posted "evidence" that was the opposite of what you were trying to prove. They conducted an audit on the fraud prevention system, not on whether $1 billion dolars worth of indigenous programs and policies actually worked. And they found it was completely inadequate to prevent and detect fraud. Meaning there was a lot of fraud. As for the "22 audits", are they the ones that resulted in the Minister saying no-one knew what worked and what didn't. That 22? Fraud. Curruption. No evidence of what works and what doesn't. Like I said its a scandal. Everyone wants to help ie help themsleves to $billlions of dollars of free taxpayer money achieving nothing. Only possible in the public service.
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Muz
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+x[Edit] reading that The Age article further, also confirms that there were huge problems with fraud prevention and detection for $1 billion dolars worth of funding. Lucky they're NOW onto it.... Its a sick joke. So they conducted an 'audit'. Is that what you're saying? Like the 22 the coalition conducted when they were in power. That 22?
Member since 2008.
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Enzo Bearzot
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[Edit] reading that The Age article further, also confirms that there were huge problems with fraud prevention and detection for $1 billion dolars worth of funding.
Lucky they're NOW onto it....
Its a sick joke.
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Enzo Bearzot
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Oh and that The Age article actually argues AGAINST you, not for.
Just 5 months ago, too
“I don’t think anyone could genuinely say that Indigenous people are getting value for money,” said Vanstone, who was responsible for Indigenous affairs during the Howard government.
“It’s apparent that we’re not being effective. It’s not so much where’s the money going – because that carries a sort of pejorative inference that you think it’s being wasted and that Indigenous people are wasteful.“And that’s not necessarily my view. I want to know what’s being effective and to get rid of the ineffective stuff and put it into more effective stuff. And I don’t think we have that map. I’m pretty sure we don’t.
So as of 5 MONTHS ago, no-one in the public service either knows or has told the government, what actually works and what doesn't.
Its a fucking $40 billion dollar scandal that could only be gotten away with by the public service and government.
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Enzo Bearzot
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Did you actually read any of your links to the audits? I don't think so From your Link #1: Five years after the introduction of the IAS, the department is in the early stages of implementing an evaluation framework that has the potential..
From Link #2 The Department of Health and Aged Care will conduct a department-wide audit of programs
From Link #3 Page not found. From Link #4 A row over federal spending is clouding the final phase of the referendum on the Indigenous Voice to parliament, with No campaigners demanding an audit of the money spent on First Australians and a former federal minister backing the call. Opposition Leader Peter Dutton linked the spending to the Voice debate by saying the money should be checked
So your "evidence" these programs are being audited amounts to audits that are in "early stages" with "potential" that "will" or "should" happen.
They've doen fuck all ACTUAL auditing.
FUCKING LOL
So once you leave anger at the door when things don't fit your world view, maybe, just maybe you need to question your world view. Fuck all chance of that though, isn't there?
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Muz
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+x+x+x+xSure. Now what. They can't get pissed. Problem's over? Crime dropped. So a major community problem gets fixed. This 45 year old aboriginal drunk didn't became that this year. Its taken 45 years. In that time, literally billions of dollars and who know how many researcher papers, researchers, government enquiries, ministers, entire government departments, social workers, assistants and do-gooders and result is: the underlying factors of alcohol abuse needed to be addressed.
Really? Who would've thunk it. Yep. So what are you going to do to fix it seeing all the biggest brains in the country have tried to fix it for decades but can't. And they've spent billions. What strategies are you putting in place to fix the problem because clearly you know better than all these 'do gooders'. Genuine question. I'm actually interested in why you think it's so easy seeing billions of dollars and decades of failure have got us to this point. So far from what I can pick up you're banning alcohol. Problem over? What's the next step to rehabilitate the drunks and drug addicts, get them into productive employment, get everyone an else an education, provide adequate housing, decent healthcare and jobs to move into? Hang on. HOW have they tried to fix it? What have they actually done? Its been decades and billions of dollars and we're stiil at the point of: underlying factors of alcohol abuse needed to be addressed. Really? No audits have been done? No-ones accountable? For decades? That is a scandal. No audits eh? Literally the time it took to type the search term into the bar. https://www.anao.gov.au/work/performance-audit/evaluating-indigenous-programshttps://www.niaa.gov.au/indigenous-affairs/closing-gap/implementation-measures/dohac-program-audithttps://aifs.gov.au/resources/policy-and-practice-papers/what-works-effective-indigenous-community-managed-programs-andhttps://www.niaa.gov.au/resource-centre/indigenous-affairs/evaluation-indigenous-employment-programs-final-reporthttps://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/dutton-price-want-indigenous-spending-audited-20231003-p5e9fb.html
The Australian National Audit Office has completed several reviews of Indigenous agencies or policies each year over recent decades, with 22 audits completed while the Coalition held power from 2013 to 2022.
Get your hand off it trying to pretend they're not monitoring and auditing programs around Australia. Of course they are and they have been for decades. You either know they and you're talking out of your arse or you don't have a clue and you're like every second old man down at the pub whinging about the gub'ment.
Member since 2008.
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Muz
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+x+x+x+xSure. Now what. They can't get pissed. Problem's over? Crime dropped. So a major community problem gets fixed. This 45 year old aboriginal drunk didn't became that this year. Its taken 45 years. In that time, literally billions of dollars and who know how many researcher papers, researchers, government enquiries, ministers, entire government departments, social workers, assistants and do-gooders and result is: the underlying factors of alcohol abuse needed to be addressed.
Really? Who would've thunk it. Yep. So what are you going to do to fix it seeing all the biggest brains in the country have tried to fix it for decades but can't. And they've spent billions. What strategies are you putting in place to fix the problem because clearly you know better than all these 'do gooders'. Genuine question. I'm actually interested in why you think it's so easy seeing billions of dollars and decades of failure have got us to this point. So far from what I can pick up you're banning alcohol. Problem over? What's the next step to rehabilitate the drunks and drug addicts, get them into productive employment, get everyone an else an education, provide adequate housing, decent healthcare and jobs to move into? Hang on. HOW have they tried to fix it? What have they actually done? Its been decades and billions of dollars and we're stiil at the point of: underlying factors of alcohol abuse needed to be addressed. Really? No audits have been done? No-ones accountable? For decades? That is a scandal. There are two ways to motivate and change human behaviour. The carrot or the stick. Neither work if the person doesn't want to change. If they don't want to change then ultimately they will self-destruct and the problem dies when they do. Alcohol abuse is the number one cause of the problems. Fix that and you go a long way to fixing the problem. But something something racism, freedom and the Coalition policy to deny alcohol was allowed to lapse by Labor. Crime went through the roof again. Clearly the stick does work. Take it further, no cash for you, coupons for food only, rent directly paid to a rental provider. Mandatory attendance at drug and re-habilitation and healthcare programs. Crime? Violence? Jail. Government policies for education, health, income benefits, rent assistance are the same for everyone who is in need. Its free. Why does that need to be different here? Why is that not sufficient for the 45 year old aboriginal drunk? Well the answer is: for the same reason its not sufficient for a 45 year old white drunk/drug addict. They're drunk/drugged out. You can't attend school or be healthy if you're drunk or drugged all the time. Alcohol and drug abuse and socio-economic disadvantage is a chicken an egg situation. Neverthelss the cycle has a beginning, and its in the home and often in childhood. So you need to go back to where it begins. If you're a male drunk abusing and bashing your wife and kids, you need to be removed and jailed. If you're an abusive and neglectful mother your kids gets taken away from you until you show you are not. Sticks and carrots. Same as everyone who isn't indigenous. Rather than rehash what I wrote before I'm dropping this in from further up the page. I don't doubt for a minute that people working in this places know all of this. None at all. The real question is if it is so 'apparently easy' to identify and rectify why hasn't it been done?
One of following 2 are possible.
(a) It's not that simple or....
(b) The people involved, the vast majority mind you, are intent on making sure no progress is made, are corrupt and are only in it to line their pockets. (Much like the cabal of scientists pushing climate change down our throats /s.)
Honestly if you think it is that easy why do you think it hasn't been sorted by now? I'm blown away by people who just say 'they should just sort it' because to whose benefit is it for things to continue as the are?
'What have the actually done'? Are you serious? There are literally hundreds of programs, probably thousands, that have been run successfully or unsuccessfully over decades. Are you saying they're doing nothing, they're not trying different strategies, they're not trying carrot and stick? You do know there's a cashless welfare card don't you? They're not sitting around doing fuck all. Like I said before. There are people in the field with 20 years experience that work in one part of the NT for one particular issue that don't have a clue if what they're doing would translate to Bamaga or the Pilbarra.
......
I doubt anyone, even experts or people on the ground, know what's best carte blanche for every indigenous problem in Australia.
There's no one answer. Only local programs that succeed or fail and make incremental steps forward. If it were that easy it would have been sorted years ago.And by the by indigenous people in Australia (3% of the total population) are the biggest group in jail (30%). So how's all that incarceration working out? Clearly it achieves fuck all. But you know what it does do? It makes RWNJs feel warm and fuzzy about locking miscreants up. I've said this before, if it were so 'easy' to sort out it would have been 'fixed' a long time ago. Perhaps when you've finished advising the government on epidemic management you can turn your big brain to sorting out indigenous issues in Australia. (And this has nothing to with which party is in because both mobs have had decades to do whatever they wanted and it's still a disaster.)
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Enzo Bearzot
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Almost half a $billion flushed down the toilet that could have provided drug and alcohol rehabilitation services, healthcare, housing, education, food and clothing to indigenous people, so that the political class could feel good about "helping" TM.
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Enzo Bearzot
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The disclosures show major groups tied to the Yes campaign raked in more than $60 million, which was spent on advertising and other campaign material. Yes23 fundraising body Australians for Indigenous Constitutional Recognition received $47.5 million, and the Uluru Dialogues group – via the University of New South Wales – received more than $11 million.Left-wing group GetUp gathered $1.7 million, and the Labor Party secured $400,000.
On the No side, Australians for Unity, received about $11 million, the Liberal Party $1.9 million, and high-profile campaigners Advance $1.3 million.
https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/yes-campaign-groups-received-millions-more-in-donations-than-no-side-in-voice-referendum-20240402-p5fgnu.html
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Enzo Bearzot
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+xSure. Now what. They can't get pissed. Problem's over? Crime dropped. So a major community problem gets fixed. This 45 year old aboriginal drunk didn't became that this year. Its taken 45 years. In that time, literally billions of dollars and who know how many researcher papers, researchers, government enquiries, ministers, entire government departments, social workers, assistants and do-gooders and result is: the underlying factors of alcohol abuse needed to be addressed.
Really? Who would've thunk it. Yep. So what are you going to do to fix it seeing all the biggest brains in the country have tried to fix it for decades but can't. And they've spent billions. What strategies are you putting in place to fix the problem because clearly you know better than all these 'do gooders'. Genuine question. I'm actually interested in why you think it's so easy seeing billions of dollars and decades of failure have got us to this point. So far from what I can pick up you're banning alcohol. Problem over? What's the next step to rehabilitate the drunks and drug addicts, get them into productive employment, get everyone an else an education, provide adequate housing, decent healthcare and jobs to move into? Hang on. HOW have they tried to fix it? What have they actually done? Its been decades and billions of dollars and we're stiil at the point of: underlying factors of alcohol abuse needed to be addressed. Really? No audits have been done? No-ones accountable? For decades? That is a scandal. There are two ways to motivate and change human behaviour. The carrot or the stick. Neither work if the person doesn't want to change. If they don't want to change then ultimately they will self-destruct and the problem dies when they do. Alcohol abuse is the number one cause of the problems. Fix that and you go a long way to fixing the problem. But something something racism, freedom and the Coalition policy to deny alcohol was allowed to lapse by Labor. Crime went through the roof again. Clearly the stick does work. Take it further, no cash for you, coupons for food only, rent directly paid to a rental provider. Mandatory attendance at drug and re-habilitation and healthcare programs. Crime? Violence? Jail. Government policies for education, health, income benefits, rent assistance are the same for everyone who is in need. Its free. Why does that need to be different here? Why is that not sufficient for the 45 year old aboriginal drunk? Well the answer is: for the same reason its not sufficient for a 45 year old white drunk/drug addict. They're drunk/drugged out. You can't attend school or be healthy if you're drunk or drugged all the time. Alcohol and drug abuse and socio-economic disadvantage is a chicken an egg situation. Neverthelss the cycle has a beginning, and its in the home and often in childhood. So you need to go back to where it begins. If you're a male drunk abusing and bashing your wife and kids, you need to be removed and jailed. If you're an abusive and neglectful mother your kids gets taken away from you until you show you are not. Sticks and carrots. Same as everyone who isn't indigenous.
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Muz
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 15K,
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+x+xSure. Now what. They can't get pissed. Problem's over? Crime dropped. So a major community problem gets fixed. This 45 year old aboriginal drunk didn't became that this year. Its taken 45 years. In that time, literally billions of dollars and who know how many researcher papers, researchers, government enquiries, ministers, entire government departments, social workers, assistants and do-gooders and result is: the underlying factors of alcohol abuse needed to be addressed.
Really? Who would've thunk it. Yep. So what are you going to do to fix it seeing all the biggest brains in the country have tried to fix it for decades but can't. And they've spent billions. What strategies are you putting in place to fix the problem because clearly you know better than all these 'do gooders'. Genuine question. I'm actually interested in why you think it's so easy seeing billions of dollars and decades of failure have got us to this point. So far from what I can pick up you're banning alcohol. Problem over? What's the next step to rehabilitate the drunks and drug addicts, get them into productive employment, get everyone an else an education, provide adequate housing, decent healthcare and jobs to move into?
Member since 2008.
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Enzo Bearzot
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Group: Forum Members
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+xSure. Now what. They can't get pissed. Problem's over? Crime dropped. So a major community problem gets fixed. This 45 year old aboriginal drunk didn't became that this year. Its taken 45 years. In that time, literally billions of dollars and who know how many researcher papers, researchers, government enquiries, ministers, entire government departments, social workers, assistants and do-gooders and result is: the underlying factors of alcohol abuse needed to be addressed.
Really? Who would've thunk it.
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Muz
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xA question for the YES voters. The central theme of the referendum seemed to be that indigenous people needed a say to Parliament guaranteed in the Constitution about things that affected them and through that they would help close the gap in the various metrics of quality of life. Did any of you actually research what exactly were the issues about indigenous people that weren't being heard, what are the current causes that lead to the gap in health, education and legal system outcomes, and how a Voice to Parliament would change those metrics? There are people in the field with 20 years experience that work in one part of the NT for one particular issue that don't have a clue if what they're doing would translate to Bamaga or the Pilbarra. If they don't know I've got no chance of knowing. I don't have the time or the inclination to spend years to be across this subject. Do you? I doubt anyone, even experts or people on the ground, know what's best carte blanche for every indigenous problem in Australia. There's no one answer. Only local programs that succeed or fail and make incremental steps forward. If it were that easy it would have been sorted years ago. It clearly isn't 'easy'. I go back to what I said up above; My rationale for this is they were here first, they asked for it and wanted it so who am I to say NO to something that, even if this voice was only 10% effective, would have improved their lot? If its that complicated then why leave the decision to the public? Irrespective of how complex a problem is, there are basic steps that can be used to break down the problem into its parts and come up with some general solutions that can be taylored as required Step 1 make a list of the problematic outcomes are. Step 2 determine what the causes of these outcomes are. Step 3 address the causes. Step 4. audit the outcomes of Step 3. Its not insurmountable or even difficult to find numerous reviews of the literature identifying what the problems are in indigenous communities, and what causes them. For example at the top of the "causes of indigenous disadvantage list" is drug and alcohol abuse. Next in the list there family violence, which feed into each other, and so on. This well known and well established. Are we supposed to believe that the people who are trained to deal with these issues don't know any of this? Are we supposed to believe that indigenous people have some innate ability to treat drug and alcohol abuse or some mystical insight into their culture that causes it, simply because they are indigenous and we're not.? (No doubt at some point it will be dismissed and called "white fella research" and lead us down the idiocy that happened in NZ a couple of years back linkWe're at the point now where whites are made to feel embarrassed to even dare ask these questions. And whilst that's the case, wouldn't be surprised in 50 years time you'll still have the same problems because there won't be an honest appraisal of the causes, let alone the solutions, because no-one will dare to. I don't doubt for a minute that people working in this places know all of this. None at all. The real question is if it is so 'apparently easy' to identify and rectify why hasn't it been done? One of following 2 are possible. (a) It's not that simple or.... (b) The people involved, the vast majority mind you, are intent on making sure no progress is made, are corrupt and are only in it to line their pockets. (Much like the cabal of scientists pushing climate change down our throats /s.) Honestly if you think it is that easy why do you think it hasn't been sorted by now? I'm blown away by people who just say 'they should just sort it' because to whose benefit is it for things to continue as the are? Let's take your hypothetical piss-wrecked aboriginal that is 45 years old, never worked in his life, is riddled with disease, has no skills and lives in woop woop with no jobs, no industry and no pathways. What are you doing about him? Just him. I'm not asking you to sort out all the problems in the community, just this one bloke?
Sober him up. Ok you've done that. Now what?As for all the kids that are growing up in these hovels, short of holus bolus rounding them all up and transporting them to somewhere like a specialised boarding school or a cadet army base what are you doing with them? They probably should round them all up but I don't know. How would you feel about all your kids and their mates being rounded up and sent 500kms away. Seeing Alice is in the news again. You never answered this question. Its youth crime and violence, not the 45 year old drunk that is the issue in Alice Springs right now, isn't it? Triggered by the death of one youth. The cause is the same here as is in the American black population: the traditional family unit is broken. BUT how do you protect the children and prevent them from repeating the cycle, without removing them from their abusive parents, and also not be accused of creating another stolen generation. Everyone who works in that industry knows it. No-one will dare to say it publically, let alone do something to fix it. But everyone gets paid at the end of the day, so round and round it goes. You didn't answer the question. Youth crime is an even bigger issue again. (Probably linked though if you accept broken family units because of rampant drug and alcohol abuse is what's causing youth crime in the first place. Case in point the 45 year old piss wrecked bloke.) But let's try and fix them. You can chew gum and walk at the same time I assume? What are you doing about just this one bloke? I'm only asking because the vibe you give off is that everything is sooooo easy if they'd just listen to someone as wise as you. After you sort old mate out can you turn your big brain to the youth crime problem. Bullet points will do. You brought up the current situation in Alice Springs. It appears to be a youth problem, is that not true? I told you what the solution is to that, but good luck fixing that one, or even talking about it As for the 45 year old, tell me what happened to him 40 years ago? To solve problems you need to corrects the causes. What caused him to be where he is today? Alice Springs had nothing to do with it except remind me of you talking about how everyone is in it for themselves, lining their pockets, and they don't give a fuck about helping the black fellas without offering any solutions a while back. Remind me again what is the solution? Because I read what you wrote at the top of the page and there's not a single tangible thing there. Regards the 45 year old. What caused him to get in this situation is multi-faceted and complicated and that's a longer discussion. (And what's done is done.) I'm asking you what would you do to help that bloke NOW because according to you everyone who's trying to help is lining their pockets and the money's not going where it should. What do you think they should do? Because if you can't help this bloke then the whole cycle repeats. And don't throw this back at me because I don't pretend to even know where to start. Here's what you said: Step 1 make a list of the problematic outcomes are. Step 2 determine what the causes of these outcomes are. Step 3 address the causes. Step 4. audit the outcomes of Step 3.
Its not insurmountable or even difficult to find numerous reviews of the literature identifying what the problems are in indigenous communities, and what causes them. For example at the top of the "causes of indigenous disadvantage list" is drug and alcohol abuse. Next in the list there family violence, which feed into each other, and so one. This well known and well established.
Yep. Agree with all that. Now what? Treat the causes not just the symptoms. Yep. Away you go.
Member since 2008.
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Muz
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Sure. Now what. They can't get pissed. Problem's over?
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Enzo Bearzot
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Anderson said they would have an immediate effect, “however, they alone will not be enough”. She said it could lead to issues surrounding stockpiling alcohol and secondary supply, and the underlying factors of alcohol abuse needed to be addressed
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/alcohol-bans-return-to-alice-springs-20230206-p5ci3y.html
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Enzo Bearzot
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Crime rates reached a four-year low in 2023, though they were still high by national standards, after limited bans on alcohol sales were re-introduced.
https://www.theage.com.au/national/what-s-happening-in-alice-springs-20240327-p5ffrt.html
Soo... not that hard afterall-don't sell the grog to them
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Enzo Bearzot
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xA question for the YES voters. The central theme of the referendum seemed to be that indigenous people needed a say to Parliament guaranteed in the Constitution about things that affected them and through that they would help close the gap in the various metrics of quality of life. Did any of you actually research what exactly were the issues about indigenous people that weren't being heard, what are the current causes that lead to the gap in health, education and legal system outcomes, and how a Voice to Parliament would change those metrics? There are people in the field with 20 years experience that work in one part of the NT for one particular issue that don't have a clue if what they're doing would translate to Bamaga or the Pilbarra. If they don't know I've got no chance of knowing. I don't have the time or the inclination to spend years to be across this subject. Do you? I doubt anyone, even experts or people on the ground, know what's best carte blanche for every indigenous problem in Australia. There's no one answer. Only local programs that succeed or fail and make incremental steps forward. If it were that easy it would have been sorted years ago. It clearly isn't 'easy'. I go back to what I said up above; My rationale for this is they were here first, they asked for it and wanted it so who am I to say NO to something that, even if this voice was only 10% effective, would have improved their lot? If its that complicated then why leave the decision to the public? Irrespective of how complex a problem is, there are basic steps that can be used to break down the problem into its parts and come up with some general solutions that can be taylored as required Step 1 make a list of the problematic outcomes are. Step 2 determine what the causes of these outcomes are. Step 3 address the causes. Step 4. audit the outcomes of Step 3. Its not insurmountable or even difficult to find numerous reviews of the literature identifying what the problems are in indigenous communities, and what causes them. For example at the top of the "causes of indigenous disadvantage list" is drug and alcohol abuse. Next in the list there family violence, which feed into each other, and so on. This well known and well established. Are we supposed to believe that the people who are trained to deal with these issues don't know any of this? Are we supposed to believe that indigenous people have some innate ability to treat drug and alcohol abuse or some mystical insight into their culture that causes it, simply because they are indigenous and we're not.? (No doubt at some point it will be dismissed and called "white fella research" and lead us down the idiocy that happened in NZ a couple of years back linkWe're at the point now where whites are made to feel embarrassed to even dare ask these questions. And whilst that's the case, wouldn't be surprised in 50 years time you'll still have the same problems because there won't be an honest appraisal of the causes, let alone the solutions, because no-one will dare to. I don't doubt for a minute that people working in this places know all of this. None at all. The real question is if it is so 'apparently easy' to identify and rectify why hasn't it been done? One of following 2 are possible. (a) It's not that simple or.... (b) The people involved, the vast majority mind you, are intent on making sure no progress is made, are corrupt and are only in it to line their pockets. (Much like the cabal of scientists pushing climate change down our throats /s.) Honestly if you think it is that easy why do you think it hasn't been sorted by now? I'm blown away by people who just say 'they should just sort it' because to whose benefit is it for things to continue as the are? Let's take your hypothetical piss-wrecked aboriginal that is 45 years old, never worked in his life, is riddled with disease, has no skills and lives in woop woop with no jobs, no industry and no pathways. What are you doing about him? Just him. I'm not asking you to sort out all the problems in the community, just this one bloke?
Sober him up. Ok you've done that. Now what?As for all the kids that are growing up in these hovels, short of holus bolus rounding them all up and transporting them to somewhere like a specialised boarding school or a cadet army base what are you doing with them? They probably should round them all up but I don't know. How would you feel about all your kids and their mates being rounded up and sent 500kms away. Seeing Alice is in the news again. You never answered this question. Its youth crime and violence, not the 45 year old drunk that is the issue in Alice Springs right now, isn't it? Triggered by the death of one youth. The cause is the same here as is in the American black population: the traditional family unit is broken. BUT how do you protect the children and prevent them from repeating the cycle, without removing them from their abusive parents, and also not be accused of creating another stolen generation. Everyone who works in that industry knows it. No-one will dare to say it publically, let alone do something to fix it. But everyone gets paid at the end of the day, so round and round it goes. You didn't answer the question. Youth crime is an even bigger issue again. (Probably linked though if you accept broken family units because of rampant drug and alcohol abuse is what's causing youth crime in the first place. Case in point the 45 year old piss wrecked bloke.) But let's try and fix them. You can chew gum and walk at the same time I assume? What are you doing about just this one bloke? I'm only asking because the vibe you give off is that everything is sooooo easy if they'd just listen to someone as wise as you. After you sort old mate out can you turn your big brain to the youth crime problem. Bullet points will do. You brought up the current situation in Alice Springs. It appears to be a youth problem, is that not true? I told you what the solution is to that, but good luck fixing that one, or even talking about it As for the 45 year old, tell me what happened to him 40 years ago? To solve problems you need to corrects the causes. What caused him to be where he is today? Alice Springs had nothing to do with it except remind me of you talking about how everyone is in it for themselves, lining their pockets, and they don't give a fuck about helping the black fellas without offering any solutions a while back. Remind me again what is the solution? Because I read what you wrote at the top of the page and there's not a single tangible thing there. Regards the 45 year old. What caused him to get in this situation is multi-faceted and complicated and that's a longer discussion. (And what's done is done.) I'm asking you what would you do to help that bloke NOW because according to you everyone who's trying to help is lining their pockets and the money's not going where it should. What do you think they should do? Because if you can't help this bloke then the whole cycle repeats. And don't throw this back at me because I don't pretend to even know where to start. Here's what you said: Step 1 make a list of the problematic outcomes are. Step 2 determine what the causes of these outcomes are. Step 3 address the causes. Step 4. audit the outcomes of Step 3.
Its not insurmountable or even difficult to find numerous reviews of the literature identifying what the problems are in indigenous communities, and what causes them. For example at the top of the "causes of indigenous disadvantage list" is drug and alcohol abuse. Next in the list there family violence, which feed into each other, and so one. This well known and well established.
Yep. Agree with all that. Now what? Treat the causes not just the symptoms.
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Muz
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 15K,
Visits: 0
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xA question for the YES voters. The central theme of the referendum seemed to be that indigenous people needed a say to Parliament guaranteed in the Constitution about things that affected them and through that they would help close the gap in the various metrics of quality of life. Did any of you actually research what exactly were the issues about indigenous people that weren't being heard, what are the current causes that lead to the gap in health, education and legal system outcomes, and how a Voice to Parliament would change those metrics? There are people in the field with 20 years experience that work in one part of the NT for one particular issue that don't have a clue if what they're doing would translate to Bamaga or the Pilbarra. If they don't know I've got no chance of knowing. I don't have the time or the inclination to spend years to be across this subject. Do you? I doubt anyone, even experts or people on the ground, know what's best carte blanche for every indigenous problem in Australia. There's no one answer. Only local programs that succeed or fail and make incremental steps forward. If it were that easy it would have been sorted years ago. It clearly isn't 'easy'. I go back to what I said up above; My rationale for this is they were here first, they asked for it and wanted it so who am I to say NO to something that, even if this voice was only 10% effective, would have improved their lot? If its that complicated then why leave the decision to the public? Irrespective of how complex a problem is, there are basic steps that can be used to break down the problem into its parts and come up with some general solutions that can be taylored as required Step 1 make a list of the problematic outcomes are. Step 2 determine what the causes of these outcomes are. Step 3 address the causes. Step 4. audit the outcomes of Step 3. Its not insurmountable or even difficult to find numerous reviews of the literature identifying what the problems are in indigenous communities, and what causes them. For example at the top of the "causes of indigenous disadvantage list" is drug and alcohol abuse. Next in the list there family violence, which feed into each other, and so on. This well known and well established. Are we supposed to believe that the people who are trained to deal with these issues don't know any of this? Are we supposed to believe that indigenous people have some innate ability to treat drug and alcohol abuse or some mystical insight into their culture that causes it, simply because they are indigenous and we're not.? (No doubt at some point it will be dismissed and called "white fella research" and lead us down the idiocy that happened in NZ a couple of years back linkWe're at the point now where whites are made to feel embarrassed to even dare ask these questions. And whilst that's the case, wouldn't be surprised in 50 years time you'll still have the same problems because there won't be an honest appraisal of the causes, let alone the solutions, because no-one will dare to. I don't doubt for a minute that people working in this places know all of this. None at all. The real question is if it is so 'apparently easy' to identify and rectify why hasn't it been done? One of following 2 are possible. (a) It's not that simple or.... (b) The people involved, the vast majority mind you, are intent on making sure no progress is made, are corrupt and are only in it to line their pockets. (Much like the cabal of scientists pushing climate change down our throats /s.) Honestly if you think it is that easy why do you think it hasn't been sorted by now? I'm blown away by people who just say 'they should just sort it' because to whose benefit is it for things to continue as the are? Let's take your hypothetical piss-wrecked aboriginal that is 45 years old, never worked in his life, is riddled with disease, has no skills and lives in woop woop with no jobs, no industry and no pathways. What are you doing about him? Just him. I'm not asking you to sort out all the problems in the community, just this one bloke?
Sober him up. Ok you've done that. Now what?As for all the kids that are growing up in these hovels, short of holus bolus rounding them all up and transporting them to somewhere like a specialised boarding school or a cadet army base what are you doing with them? They probably should round them all up but I don't know. How would you feel about all your kids and their mates being rounded up and sent 500kms away. Seeing Alice is in the news again. You never answered this question. Its youth crime and violence, not the 45 year old drunk that is the issue in Alice Springs right now, isn't it? Triggered by the death of one youth. The cause is the same here as is in the American black population: the traditional family unit is broken. BUT how do you protect the children and prevent them from repeating the cycle, without removing them from their abusive parents, and also not be accused of creating another stolen generation. Everyone who works in that industry knows it. No-one will dare to say it publically, let alone do something to fix it. But everyone gets paid at the end of the day, so round and round it goes. You didn't answer the question. Youth crime is an even bigger issue again. (Probably linked though if you accept broken family units because of rampant drug and alcohol abuse is what's causing youth crime in the first place. Case in point the 45 year old piss wrecked bloke.) But let's try and fix them. You can chew gum and walk at the same time I assume? What are you doing about just this one bloke? I'm only asking because the vibe you give off is that everything is sooooo easy if they'd just listen to someone as wise as you. After you sort old mate out can you turn your big brain to the youth crime problem. Bullet points will do. You brought up the current situation in Alice Springs. It appears to be a youth problem, is that not true? I told you what the solution is to that, but good luck fixing that one, or even talking about it As for the 45 year old, tell me what happened to him 40 years ago? To solve problems you need to corrects the causes. What caused him to be where he is today? Alice Springs had nothing to do with it except remind me of you talking about how everyone is in it for themselves, lining their pockets, and they don't give a fuck about helping the black fellas without offering any solutions a while back. Remind me again what is the solution? Because I read what you wrote at the top of the page and there's not a single tangible thing there. Regards the 45 year old. What caused him to get in this situation is multi-faceted and complicated and that's a longer discussion. (And what's done is done.) I'm asking you what would you do to help that bloke NOW because according to you everyone who's trying to help is lining their pockets and the money's not going where it should. What do you think they should do? Because if you can't help this bloke then the whole cycle repeats. And don't throw this back at me because I don't pretend to even know where to start. Here's what you said: Step 1 make a list of the problematic outcomes are. Step 2 determine what the causes of these outcomes are. Step 3 address the causes. Step 4. audit the outcomes of Step 3.
Its not insurmountable or even difficult to find numerous reviews of the literature identifying what the problems are in indigenous communities, and what causes them. For example at the top of the "causes of indigenous disadvantage list" is drug and alcohol abuse. Next in the list there family violence, which feed into each other, and so one. This well known and well established.
Yep. Agree with all that. Now what?
Member since 2008.
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Enzo Bearzot
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 4.5K,
Visits: 0
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+xA question for the YES voters. The central theme of the referendum seemed to be that indigenous people needed a say to Parliament guaranteed in the Constitution about things that affected them and through that they would help close the gap in the various metrics of quality of life. Did any of you actually research what exactly were the issues about indigenous people that weren't being heard, what are the current causes that lead to the gap in health, education and legal system outcomes, and how a Voice to Parliament would change those metrics? There are people in the field with 20 years experience that work in one part of the NT for one particular issue that don't have a clue if what they're doing would translate to Bamaga or the Pilbarra. If they don't know I've got no chance of knowing. I don't have the time or the inclination to spend years to be across this subject. Do you? I doubt anyone, even experts or people on the ground, know what's best carte blanche for every indigenous problem in Australia. There's no one answer. Only local programs that succeed or fail and make incremental steps forward. If it were that easy it would have been sorted years ago. It clearly isn't 'easy'. I go back to what I said up above; My rationale for this is they were here first, they asked for it and wanted it so who am I to say NO to something that, even if this voice was only 10% effective, would have improved their lot? If its that complicated then why leave the decision to the public? Irrespective of how complex a problem is, there are basic steps that can be used to break down the problem into its parts and come up with some general solutions that can be taylored as required Step 1 make a list of the problematic outcomes are. Step 2 determine what the causes of these outcomes are. Step 3 address the causes. Step 4. audit the outcomes of Step 3. Its not insurmountable or even difficult to find numerous reviews of the literature identifying what the problems are in indigenous communities, and what causes them. For example at the top of the "causes of indigenous disadvantage list" is drug and alcohol abuse. Next in the list there family violence, which feed into each other, and so on. This well known and well established. Are we supposed to believe that the people who are trained to deal with these issues don't know any of this? Are we supposed to believe that indigenous people have some innate ability to treat drug and alcohol abuse or some mystical insight into their culture that causes it, simply because they are indigenous and we're not.? (No doubt at some point it will be dismissed and called "white fella research" and lead us down the idiocy that happened in NZ a couple of years back linkWe're at the point now where whites are made to feel embarrassed to even dare ask these questions. And whilst that's the case, wouldn't be surprised in 50 years time you'll still have the same problems because there won't be an honest appraisal of the causes, let alone the solutions, because no-one will dare to. I don't doubt for a minute that people working in this places know all of this. None at all. The real question is if it is so 'apparently easy' to identify and rectify why hasn't it been done? One of following 2 are possible. (a) It's not that simple or.... (b) The people involved, the vast majority mind you, are intent on making sure no progress is made, are corrupt and are only in it to line their pockets. (Much like the cabal of scientists pushing climate change down our throats /s.) Honestly if you think it is that easy why do you think it hasn't been sorted by now? I'm blown away by people who just say 'they should just sort it' because to whose benefit is it for things to continue as the are? Let's take your hypothetical piss-wrecked aboriginal that is 45 years old, never worked in his life, is riddled with disease, has no skills and lives in woop woop with no jobs, no industry and no pathways. What are you doing about him? Just him. I'm not asking you to sort out all the problems in the community, just this one bloke?
Sober him up. Ok you've done that. Now what?As for all the kids that are growing up in these hovels, short of holus bolus rounding them all up and transporting them to somewhere like a specialised boarding school or a cadet army base what are you doing with them? They probably should round them all up but I don't know. How would you feel about all your kids and their mates being rounded up and sent 500kms away. Seeing Alice is in the news again. You never answered this question. Its youth crime and violence, not the 45 year old drunk that is the issue in Alice Springs right now, isn't it? Triggered by the death of one youth. The cause is the same here as is in the American black population: the traditional family unit is broken. BUT how do you protect the children and prevent them from repeating the cycle, without removing them from their abusive parents, and also not be accused of creating another stolen generation. Everyone who works in that industry knows it. No-one will dare to say it publically, let alone do something to fix it. But everyone gets paid at the end of the day, so round and round it goes. You didn't answer the question. Youth crime is an even bigger issue again. (Probably linked though if you accept broken family units because of rampant drug and alcohol abuse is what's causing youth crime in the first place. Case in point the 45 year old piss wrecked bloke.) But let's try and fix them. You can chew gum and walk at the same time I assume? What are you doing about just this one bloke? I'm only asking because the vibe you give off is that everything is sooooo easy if they'd just listen to someone as wise as you. After you sort old mate out can you turn your big brain to the youth crime problem. Bullet points will do. You brought up the current situation in Alice Springs. It appears to be a youth problem, is that not true? I told you what the solution is to that, but good luck fixing that one, or even talking about it As for the 45 year old, tell me what happened to him 40 years ago? To solve problems you need to corrects the causes. What caused him to be where he is today?
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Muz
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 15K,
Visits: 0
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+x+x+x+x+x+xA question for the YES voters. The central theme of the referendum seemed to be that indigenous people needed a say to Parliament guaranteed in the Constitution about things that affected them and through that they would help close the gap in the various metrics of quality of life. Did any of you actually research what exactly were the issues about indigenous people that weren't being heard, what are the current causes that lead to the gap in health, education and legal system outcomes, and how a Voice to Parliament would change those metrics? There are people in the field with 20 years experience that work in one part of the NT for one particular issue that don't have a clue if what they're doing would translate to Bamaga or the Pilbarra. If they don't know I've got no chance of knowing. I don't have the time or the inclination to spend years to be across this subject. Do you? I doubt anyone, even experts or people on the ground, know what's best carte blanche for every indigenous problem in Australia. There's no one answer. Only local programs that succeed or fail and make incremental steps forward. If it were that easy it would have been sorted years ago. It clearly isn't 'easy'. I go back to what I said up above; My rationale for this is they were here first, they asked for it and wanted it so who am I to say NO to something that, even if this voice was only 10% effective, would have improved their lot? If its that complicated then why leave the decision to the public? Irrespective of how complex a problem is, there are basic steps that can be used to break down the problem into its parts and come up with some general solutions that can be taylored as required Step 1 make a list of the problematic outcomes are. Step 2 determine what the causes of these outcomes are. Step 3 address the causes. Step 4. audit the outcomes of Step 3. Its not insurmountable or even difficult to find numerous reviews of the literature identifying what the problems are in indigenous communities, and what causes them. For example at the top of the "causes of indigenous disadvantage list" is drug and alcohol abuse. Next in the list there family violence, which feed into each other, and so on. This well known and well established. Are we supposed to believe that the people who are trained to deal with these issues don't know any of this? Are we supposed to believe that indigenous people have some innate ability to treat drug and alcohol abuse or some mystical insight into their culture that causes it, simply because they are indigenous and we're not.? (No doubt at some point it will be dismissed and called "white fella research" and lead us down the idiocy that happened in NZ a couple of years back linkWe're at the point now where whites are made to feel embarrassed to even dare ask these questions. And whilst that's the case, wouldn't be surprised in 50 years time you'll still have the same problems because there won't be an honest appraisal of the causes, let alone the solutions, because no-one will dare to. I don't doubt for a minute that people working in this places know all of this. None at all. The real question is if it is so 'apparently easy' to identify and rectify why hasn't it been done? One of following 2 are possible. (a) It's not that simple or.... (b) The people involved, the vast majority mind you, are intent on making sure no progress is made, are corrupt and are only in it to line their pockets. (Much like the cabal of scientists pushing climate change down our throats /s.) Honestly if you think it is that easy why do you think it hasn't been sorted by now? I'm blown away by people who just say 'they should just sort it' because to whose benefit is it for things to continue as the are? Let's take your hypothetical piss-wrecked aboriginal that is 45 years old, never worked in his life, is riddled with disease, has no skills and lives in woop woop with no jobs, no industry and no pathways. What are you doing about him? Just him. I'm not asking you to sort out all the problems in the community, just this one bloke?
Sober him up. Ok you've done that. Now what?As for all the kids that are growing up in these hovels, short of holus bolus rounding them all up and transporting them to somewhere like a specialised boarding school or a cadet army base what are you doing with them? They probably should round them all up but I don't know. How would you feel about all your kids and their mates being rounded up and sent 500kms away. Seeing Alice is in the news again. You never answered this question. Its youth crime and violence, not the 45 year old drunk that is the issue in Alice Springs right now, isn't it? Triggered by the death of one youth. The cause is the same here as is in the American black population: the traditional family unit is broken. BUT how do you protect the children and prevent them from repeating the cycle, without removing them from their abusive parents, and also not be accused of creating another stolen generation. Everyone who works in that industry knows it. No-one will dare to say it publically, let alone do something to fix it. But everyone gets paid at the end of the day, so round and round it goes. You didn't answer the question. Youth crime is an even bigger issue again. (Probably linked though if you accept broken family units because of rampant drug and alcohol abuse is what's causing youth crime in the first place. Case in point the 45 year old piss wrecked bloke.) But let's try and fix them. You can chew gum and walk at the same time I assume? What are you doing about just this one bloke? I'm only asking because the vibe you give off is that everything is sooooo easy if they'd just listen to someone as wise as you. After you sort old mate out can you turn your big brain to the youth crime problem. Bullet points will do.
Member since 2008.
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Enzo Bearzot
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+xA question for the YES voters. The central theme of the referendum seemed to be that indigenous people needed a say to Parliament guaranteed in the Constitution about things that affected them and through that they would help close the gap in the various metrics of quality of life. Did any of you actually research what exactly were the issues about indigenous people that weren't being heard, what are the current causes that lead to the gap in health, education and legal system outcomes, and how a Voice to Parliament would change those metrics? There are people in the field with 20 years experience that work in one part of the NT for one particular issue that don't have a clue if what they're doing would translate to Bamaga or the Pilbarra. If they don't know I've got no chance of knowing. I don't have the time or the inclination to spend years to be across this subject. Do you? I doubt anyone, even experts or people on the ground, know what's best carte blanche for every indigenous problem in Australia. There's no one answer. Only local programs that succeed or fail and make incremental steps forward. If it were that easy it would have been sorted years ago. It clearly isn't 'easy'. I go back to what I said up above; My rationale for this is they were here first, they asked for it and wanted it so who am I to say NO to something that, even if this voice was only 10% effective, would have improved their lot? If its that complicated then why leave the decision to the public? Irrespective of how complex a problem is, there are basic steps that can be used to break down the problem into its parts and come up with some general solutions that can be taylored as required Step 1 make a list of the problematic outcomes are. Step 2 determine what the causes of these outcomes are. Step 3 address the causes. Step 4. audit the outcomes of Step 3. Its not insurmountable or even difficult to find numerous reviews of the literature identifying what the problems are in indigenous communities, and what causes them. For example at the top of the "causes of indigenous disadvantage list" is drug and alcohol abuse. Next in the list there family violence, which feed into each other, and so on. This well known and well established. Are we supposed to believe that the people who are trained to deal with these issues don't know any of this? Are we supposed to believe that indigenous people have some innate ability to treat drug and alcohol abuse or some mystical insight into their culture that causes it, simply because they are indigenous and we're not.? (No doubt at some point it will be dismissed and called "white fella research" and lead us down the idiocy that happened in NZ a couple of years back linkWe're at the point now where whites are made to feel embarrassed to even dare ask these questions. And whilst that's the case, wouldn't be surprised in 50 years time you'll still have the same problems because there won't be an honest appraisal of the causes, let alone the solutions, because no-one will dare to. I don't doubt for a minute that people working in this places know all of this. None at all. The real question is if it is so 'apparently easy' to identify and rectify why hasn't it been done? One of following 2 are possible. (a) It's not that simple or.... (b) The people involved, the vast majority mind you, are intent on making sure no progress is made, are corrupt and are only in it to line their pockets. (Much like the cabal of scientists pushing climate change down our throats /s.) Honestly if you think it is that easy why do you think it hasn't been sorted by now? I'm blown away by people who just say 'they should just sort it' because to whose benefit is it for things to continue as the are? Let's take your hypothetical piss-wrecked aboriginal that is 45 years old, never worked in his life, is riddled with disease, has no skills and lives in woop woop with no jobs, no industry and no pathways. What are you doing about him? Just him. I'm not asking you to sort out all the problems in the community, just this one bloke?
Sober him up. Ok you've done that. Now what?As for all the kids that are growing up in these hovels, short of holus bolus rounding them all up and transporting them to somewhere like a specialised boarding school or a cadet army base what are you doing with them? They probably should round them all up but I don't know. How would you feel about all your kids and their mates being rounded up and sent 500kms away. Seeing Alice is in the news again. You never answered this question. Its youth crime and violence, not the 45 year old drunk that is the issue in Alice Springs right now, isn't it? Triggered by the death of one youth. The cause is the same here as is in the American black population: the traditional family unit is broken. BUT how do you protect the children and prevent them from repeating the cycle, without removing them from their abusive parents, and also not be accused of creating another stolen generation. Everyone who works in that industry knows it. No-one will dare to say it publically, let alone do something to fix it. But everyone gets paid at the end of the day, so round and round it goes.
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