|
yoshi2284
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 159,
Visits: 0
|
+x+x+x+x[quote]You want less visa players but more jobs for kiwis. I don't.
If your willing to risk expansion into tasmania, geelong, 2nd adelaide etc before considering auckland then you want less jobs for aussies as well. Willing to risk.... pfffft Yes we are willing to risk punishing ourselves w maximising pathways for australian players. Lol. And pray tell why untapped markets are riskier than failed experiments in Auckland. Lol. And geelong is hands down a better option than aukland . And in saying that, there are much better options than geelong in australia. Yeah I'm just going to stop after this, you clearly just want the argument and to be honest I'm not sure why I bothered trying to explain. Yet, I will try one last time to explain my pov: 1. We should CONSIDER the IDEA of another NZ based team. I am not saying they deserve the first expansion spot, but eventually once you get rid of the canberra's and the wollongong's etc, there is surely the need to entertain all possibilities. 2. Its disingenuous of you to say Auckland is still a failed experiment. This was a decade ago, the population has changed, participation has increased (while other traditional sports decline), it would have a potential derby, and major footballing events in Auckland have increased awareness and viewership of football on sky (both A-League and Internationals). For you to say its only benefit is its population is just plain ridiculous, and basing your evidence off a poorly implemented, financed and marketed team who folded a decade ago is shameful. 3. The deal between FFA and sky/Football NZ is up to them to get right, obviously if you can't come to a reasonable agreement then you wouldn't put up another Auckland team. Simple. 4. You want to keep our focus solely on Australia alone and its youth development. I happen to believe like with the MLS, the english FA and all major Australian sports, that tapping into local international markets and having a joint approach to both country's development has great potential to succeed for all parties. We disagree and that will probably never change. 5. Simply put, there are pro's and con's to every expansion candidate, all I am doing is exploring all possibilities. If you still take issue with that then honestly you are part of the problem. The beauty of this is in 6 months if issues come to light with a possible expansion into Auckland, I am happy to say so. I just hope you are as open to that change of heart if the opposite occurs. Expanding to NZ is against Asian Football Federation wishes. When NZ joins the future east Asian football federation sky NZ can fund 2 teams from NZ.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Paddythelipps
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 83,
Visits: 0
|
+x+x+x[quote]You want less visa players but more jobs for kiwis. I don't.
If your willing to risk expansion into tasmania, geelong, 2nd adelaide etc before considering auckland then you want less jobs for aussies as well. Willing to risk.... pfffft Yes we are willing to risk punishing ourselves w maximising pathways for australian players. Lol. And pray tell why untapped markets are riskier than failed experiments in Auckland. Lol. And geelong is hands down a better option than aukland . And in saying that, there are much better options than geelong in australia. Yeah I'm just going to stop after this, you clearly just want the argument and to be honest I'm not sure why I bothered trying to explain. Yet, I will try one last time to explain my pov: 1. We should CONSIDER the IDEA of another NZ based team. I am not saying they deserve the first expansion spot, but eventually once you get rid of the canberra's and the wollongong's etc, there is surely the need to entertain all possibilities. 2. Its disingenuous of you to say Auckland is still a failed experiment. This was a decade ago, the population has changed, participation has increased (while other traditional sports decline), it would have a potential derby, and major footballing events in Auckland have increased awareness and viewership of football on sky (both A-League and Internationals). For you to say its only benefit is its population is just plain ridiculous, and basing your evidence off a poorly implemented, financed and marketed team who folded a decade ago is shameful. 3. The deal between FFA and sky/Football NZ is up to them to get right, obviously if you can't come to a reasonable agreement then you wouldn't put up another Auckland team. Simple. 4. You want to keep our focus solely on Australia alone and its youth development. I happen to believe like with the MLS, the english FA and all major Australian sports, that tapping into local international markets and having a joint approach to both country's development has great potential to succeed for all parties. We disagree and that will probably never change. 5. Simply put, there are pro's and con's to every expansion candidate, all I am doing is exploring all possibilities. If you still take issue with that then honestly you are part of the problem. The beauty of this is in 6 months if issues come to light with a possible expansion into Auckland, I am happy to say so. I just hope you are as open to that change of heart if the opposite occurs.
|
|
|
|
|
azzaMVFC
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 6.3K,
Visits: 0
|
+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xDont want to sound like a naysayer here. But after watching a fair bit of the first two rounds, do we really have enough local talent to fill two teams? We might need to lift the current quota of foreign players to maybe 6-7 because all thats gonna happen is other clubs get drained and we continue to recycle rejected a-league players (most of whom already play for Newcastle or CCM) Maybe cap the playing/game day squad roster to 5, but i think clubs moght struggle to find enough players to dill two more teams. Each with at least 15 australian players. I don't think finding the players is the problem Firstly, you have the visa players Secondly, you poach Aussies from other A-League teams Thirdly, You look at returning name players ie. Holman, Cahill or so on.. Fourthly, you look at Aussie players in Europe and Asia who might be tempted to come home ie, Troisi, Brattan, Oar, & Zullo etc Fifthly, you look at recycling ex A-League players ie. Covic, Stella, Nick Ward etc... Sixthly, you look at Youth league, State League and NPL etc... If you can't find a serviceable squad after all of that then you aren't really trying.... The current set up can only handle a certain amount of teams before the quality gets effected Of course but two teams should easily be doable. I am sure if you made two 'best 11's from the NPL and had 5 foreigners it would make a serviceable squad, let alone adding in players overseas and at other clubs Not discounting the fact that these 11 NPL players will now have the chance to train and play in a professional environment week in week out. Their ability would improve significantly. Gully had this midfielder called Jay Davies who was an utter star that was making both CCM and Knights look like mugs. The guy played like Mooy, covering every inch of the ground and demanding the ball as a marauding playmaker. The whole game I was moaning why can't CCM or NUJ pick up this bloke as he is clearly good enough to play A-League and would be better than half the hacks they sign. Even if you took the 2 best player from the top 6 of NSWNPL and NPLV, you'd have a more than competent squad that could hold it's own. What they need is a pre-season and the full time conditioning that separates the pro's from them. From memory I think he was an English lad? He certainly looked the goods. Maybe the clubs didn't want to use a visa spot on someone playing in the NPL (although he would probably be a better signing then a few of the visa lads running around in the league) People keep talking about these kids who make 1 or 2 great performances in the FFA cup. But now its the 3rd year of the FFA cup. Can someone name 5 players who have come from an NPL club via the ffa cup and is now playing regularly in the a-league? Or the last 5 NPL players playing regularly in the a-league? Therein is our problem, and why there does need to be expansion. The coaches of the current A League clubs are not looking at the NPL (generally speaking) and therefore people are not being picked up who could be given a reasonable outing in the A League. Choi, now with Adelaide, is the first player who has made the leap. It'll be interesting to see how he goes and what opportunity he is given. It's probably more a reason as to why we need a fully professional second division. Currently there are 90 NPL clubs spread across 8 divisions in Australia. If we get 12-14 of these clubs as a start forming a professional national second division you'll have the best talent from these 90 clubs all playing together. The talent will not be as diluted as it is now. To get a second div up and running isn't hard. To get it professional will need more funds tipped in from the FFA, so if the TV Deal increase is what we are all hoping for this can be a reality.
|
|
|
|
|
aussie scott21
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 19K,
Visits: 0
|
KFC BBL|05 NEW ZEALAND COULD FIELD BBL TEAM: VETTORI 25 December 2015 Vettori is keen on a New Zealand BBL franchise // Getty Images bigbash.com.au Cricket Australia not ruling out the possibility of trans-Tasman expansion New Zealand legend Dan Vettori believes his home country could support a KFC Big Bash League team, while Cricket Australia has not ruled out the possibility of expansion across the ditch. http://www.bigbash.com.au/news/new-zealand-big-bash-league-team-mike-mckenna-daniel-vettori/2015-12-25Where ever we having any league of interest the kiwi wolves will be circling.
|
|
|
|
|
bohemia
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 8.3K,
Visits: 0
|
+xWhy the fuck is this poster talking about risks and suggesting Auckland in the same breath. 1. Already been there and it was a hell of a failure. 2. Not in the country let alone the same confed. 3. They haven't pulled their weight TV money wise. 4. So far haven't pulled their weight crowd wise. No. But it's New Zealand, the great big "what if" of Australian sport
|
|
|
|
|
Footballking55
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 3.2K,
Visits: 0
|
+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xDont want to sound like a naysayer here. But after watching a fair bit of the first two rounds, do we really have enough local talent to fill two teams? We might need to lift the current quota of foreign players to maybe 6-7 because all thats gonna happen is other clubs get drained and we continue to recycle rejected a-league players (most of whom already play for Newcastle or CCM) Maybe cap the playing/game day squad roster to 5, but i think clubs moght struggle to find enough players to dill two more teams. Each with at least 15 australian players. I don't think finding the players is the problem Firstly, you have the visa players Secondly, you poach Aussies from other A-League teams Thirdly, You look at returning name players ie. Holman, Cahill or so on.. Fourthly, you look at Aussie players in Europe and Asia who might be tempted to come home ie, Troisi, Brattan, Oar, & Zullo etc Fifthly, you look at recycling ex A-League players ie. Covic, Stella, Nick Ward etc... Sixthly, you look at Youth league, State League and NPL etc... If you can't find a serviceable squad after all of that then you aren't really trying.... The current set up can only handle a certain amount of teams before the quality gets effected Of course but two teams should easily be doable. I am sure if you made two 'best 11's from the NPL and had 5 foreigners it would make a serviceable squad, let alone adding in players overseas and at other clubs Not discounting the fact that these 11 NPL players will now have the chance to train and play in a professional environment week in week out. Their ability would improve significantly. Gully had this midfielder called Jay Davies who was an utter star that was making both CCM and Knights look like mugs. The guy played like Mooy, covering every inch of the ground and demanding the ball as a marauding playmaker. The whole game I was moaning why can't CCM or NUJ pick up this bloke as he is clearly good enough to play A-League and would be better than half the hacks they sign. Even if you took the 2 best player from the top 6 of NSWNPL and NPLV, you'd have a more than competent squad that could hold it's own. What they need is a pre-season and the full time conditioning that separates the pro's from them. From memory I think he was an English lad? He certainly looked the goods. Maybe the clubs didn't want to use a visa spot on someone playing in the NPL (although he would probably be a better signing then a few of the visa lads running around in the league) People keep talking about these kids who make 1 or 2 great performances in the FFA cup. But now its the 3rd year of the FFA cup. Can someone name 5 players who have come from an NPL club via the ffa cup and is now playing regularly in the a-league? Or the last 5 NPL players playing regularly in the a-league? Therein is our problem, and why there does need to be expansion. The coaches of the current A League clubs are not looking at the NPL (generally speaking) and therefore people are not being picked up who could be given a reasonable outing in the A League. Choi, now with Adelaide, is the first player who has made the leap. It'll be interesting to see how he goes and what opportunity he is given.
|
|
|
|
|
bitza
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.8K,
Visits: 0
|
+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xDont want to sound like a naysayer here. But after watching a fair bit of the first two rounds, do we really have enough local talent to fill two teams? We might need to lift the current quota of foreign players to maybe 6-7 because all thats gonna happen is other clubs get drained and we continue to recycle rejected a-league players (most of whom already play for Newcastle or CCM) Maybe cap the playing/game day squad roster to 5, but i think clubs moght struggle to find enough players to dill two more teams. Each with at least 15 australian players. I don't think finding the players is the problem Firstly, you have the visa players Secondly, you poach Aussies from other A-League teams Thirdly, You look at returning name players ie. Holman, Cahill or so on.. Fourthly, you look at Aussie players in Europe and Asia who might be tempted to come home ie, Troisi, Brattan, Oar, & Zullo etc Fifthly, you look at recycling ex A-League players ie. Covic, Stella, Nick Ward etc... Sixthly, you look at Youth league, State League and NPL etc... If you can't find a serviceable squad after all of that then you aren't really trying.... The current set up can only handle a certain amount of teams before the quality gets effected Of course but two teams should easily be doable. I am sure if you made two 'best 11's from the NPL and had 5 foreigners it would make a serviceable squad, let alone adding in players overseas and at other clubs Not discounting the fact that these 11 NPL players will now have the chance to train and play in a professional environment week in week out. Their ability would improve significantly. Gully had this midfielder called Jay Davies who was an utter star that was making both CCM and Knights look like mugs. The guy played like Mooy, covering every inch of the ground and demanding the ball as a marauding playmaker. The whole game I was moaning why can't CCM or NUJ pick up this bloke as he is clearly good enough to play A-League and would be better than half the hacks they sign. Even if you took the 2 best player from the top 6 of NSWNPL and NPLV, you'd have a more than competent squad that could hold it's own. What they need is a pre-season and the full time conditioning that separates the pro's from them. From memory I think he was an English lad? He certainly looked the goods. Maybe the clubs didn't want to use a visa spot on someone playing in the NPL (although he would probably be a better signing then a few of the visa lads running around in the league) People keep talking about these kids who make 1 or 2 great performances in the FFA cup. But now its the 3rd year of the FFA cup. Can someone name 5 players who have come from an NPL club via the ffa cup and is now playing regularly in the a-league? Or the last 5 NPL players playing regularly in the a-league?
|
|
|
|
HortoMagiko
|
|
Group: Banned Members
Posts: 2.6K,
Visits: 0
|
+x+x+xWhy the fuck is this poster talking about risks and suggesting Auckland in the same breath. 1. Already been there and it was a hell of a failure. 2. Not in the country let alone the same confed. 3. They haven't pulled their weight TV money wise. 4. So far haven't pulled their weight crowd wise. No. Amen brother. Lol apart from their population, there is nothing to suggest they are a more viable option than anyone else. If you were worried only on the club being viable, you would just go into Melb and Sydney where sponsors would be attracted by derbies Its that simple. On the population thing, hong kong has a population of 7 million...and holland has a population of 16 million... both countries have more clubs than us.
Is Wellington diverse? Dont know, however this is a club that has no historical or existing link to a specific migrant group - Rusty Einstein
The negative stereotypes are perpetuated by people who either have no idea or are serving a vested interest; neither viewpoint should get anywhere near running Australian football - Ange Postecoglou
|
|
|
|
|
jaymz
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.5K,
Visits: 0
|
+x+xWhy the fuck is this poster talking about risks and suggesting Auckland in the same breath. 1. Already been there and it was a hell of a failure. 2. Not in the country let alone the same confed. 3. They haven't pulled their weight TV money wise. 4. So far haven't pulled their weight crowd wise. No. Amen brother. Lol apart from their population, there is nothing to suggest they are a more viable option than anyone else. If you were worried only on the club being viable, you would just go into Melb and Sydney where sponsors would be attracted by derbies
|
|
|
|
HortoMagiko
|
|
Group: Banned Members
Posts: 2.6K,
Visits: 0
|
+xWhy the fuck is this poster talking about risks and suggesting Auckland in the same breath. 1. Already been there and it was a hell of a failure. 2. Not in the country let alone the same confed. 3. They haven't pulled their weight TV money wise. 4. So far haven't pulled their weight crowd wise. No. Amen brother.
Is Wellington diverse? Dont know, however this is a club that has no historical or existing link to a specific migrant group - Rusty Einstein
The negative stereotypes are perpetuated by people who either have no idea or are serving a vested interest; neither viewpoint should get anywhere near running Australian football - Ange Postecoglou
|
|
|
|
|
TheSelectFew
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 30K,
Visits: 0
|
Why the fuck is this poster talking about risks and suggesting Auckland in the same breath. 1. Already been there and it was a hell of a failure. 2. Not in the country let alone the same confed. 3. They haven't pulled their weight TV money wise. 4. So far haven't pulled their weight crowd wise. No.
|
|
|
|
|
Reedy
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 925,
Visits: 0
|
+x+x+x+x+x+x+xDont want to sound like a naysayer here. But after watching a fair bit of the first two rounds, do we really have enough local talent to fill two teams? We might need to lift the current quota of foreign players to maybe 6-7 because all thats gonna happen is other clubs get drained and we continue to recycle rejected a-league players (most of whom already play for Newcastle or CCM) Maybe cap the playing/game day squad roster to 5, but i think clubs moght struggle to find enough players to dill two more teams. Each with at least 15 australian players. I don't think finding the players is the problem Firstly, you have the visa players Secondly, you poach Aussies from other A-League teams Thirdly, You look at returning name players ie. Holman, Cahill or so on.. Fourthly, you look at Aussie players in Europe and Asia who might be tempted to come home ie, Troisi, Brattan, Oar, & Zullo etc Fifthly, you look at recycling ex A-League players ie. Covic, Stella, Nick Ward etc... Sixthly, you look at Youth league, State League and NPL etc... If you can't find a serviceable squad after all of that then you aren't really trying.... The current set up can only handle a certain amount of teams before the quality gets effected Of course but two teams should easily be doable. I am sure if you made two 'best 11's from the NPL and had 5 foreigners it would make a serviceable squad, let alone adding in players overseas and at other clubs Not discounting the fact that these 11 NPL players will now have the chance to train and play in a professional environment week in week out. Their ability would improve significantly. Gully had this midfielder called Jay Davies who was an utter star that was making both CCM and Knights look like mugs. The guy played like Mooy, covering every inch of the ground and demanding the ball as a marauding playmaker. The whole game I was moaning why can't CCM or NUJ pick up this bloke as he is clearly good enough to play A-League and would be better than half the hacks they sign. Even if you took the 2 best player from the top 6 of NSWNPL and NPLV, you'd have a more than competent squad that could hold it's own. What they need is a pre-season and the full time conditioning that separates the pro's from them. From memory I think he was an English lad? He certainly looked the goods. Maybe the clubs didn't want to use a visa spot on someone playing in the NPL (although he would probably be a better signing then a few of the visa lads running around in the league)
|
|
|
|
HortoMagiko
|
|
Group: Banned Members
Posts: 2.6K,
Visits: 0
|
+x+x[quote]You want less visa players but more jobs for kiwis. I don't.
If your willing to risk expansion into tasmania, geelong, 2nd adelaide etc before considering auckland then you want less jobs for aussies as well. Willing to risk.... pfffft Yes we are willing to risk punishing ourselves w maximising pathways for australian players. Lol. And pray tell why untapped markets are riskier than failed experiments in Auckland. Lol. And geelong is hands down a better option than aukland . And in saying that, there are much better options than geelong in australia.
Is Wellington diverse? Dont know, however this is a club that has no historical or existing link to a specific migrant group - Rusty Einstein
The negative stereotypes are perpetuated by people who either have no idea or are serving a vested interest; neither viewpoint should get anywhere near running Australian football - Ange Postecoglou
|
|
|
|
HortoMagiko
|
|
Group: Banned Members
Posts: 2.6K,
Visits: 0
|
+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xplaces with a suitable stadium that could be part of next expansion phase: canberra wollongong southern sydney (kogarah or cronulla stadiums, however ideally at st george) south-west sydney (campbelltown stadium) auckland (mt smart)
canberra places with an unsuitable stadiium ie. too big or oval shaped: north sydney (north sydney oval) geelong places with no suitable stadium: brisbane strikers 2nd adelaide (sharing a 15k stadium would be a farce) 2nd perth (unless sharing) Im constantly surprised that another NZ team gets constantly overlooked. They have a couple of really quality boutique stadiums in cities all 300k plus. And a team in auckland again would not be the same as the first time around, another NZ team for derbies and the recent football exposure and surging participation numbers in NZ makes it a prime candidate. The biggest issue for Auckland is the general resentment against having another NZ team, which I personally can't understand. Its pretty easy to understand. We arent here to develop nz football and fund nzfa. We jeed more pathways for Australian players... we need more clubs w an australian agenda....naturally. Between NZ knights and the nix, 38 Australian players have had 1st team football opportunities. the fact that aussies still count as home country players kind of proves the shared NZ/AUS agenda. And a stronger new zealand football community actually does benefit us, as does the development of any countries in our immediate region. Just take a look at the MLS initially funding and advocating for more canadian teams... So what you're saying is that in 12 years of a NZ team being in the A league 38 Aussies have been given first team opportunities, which is 3 Aussies a season, pretty underwhelming. As opposed to an Australian based team which at the bare minimum has 9 Aussie players a game (6 Aussies on field with the other 5 foreigners and 3 Aussie subs). Even if the Aussie clubs were to use the same team each game and have no injuries or suspensions for the season, they are at a minimum (and this scenario is virtually impossible) playing 3 times as many Aussie players than any NZ team has. This is the problem with having 1 team from NZ let alone 2. I don't know why everyone is so supportive of any NZ (or foreign) teams in the A league when we have not got that many professional opportunities in Australia for our own players. Not to mention the pitiful return we get for the TV deal from NZ, I doubt a derby will make it go up heaps. No NZ TV company is going to break the bank for essentially 3 big games, when there is not even competition for the rights in NZ. Ohh and anyone complaining about aussie clubs playing players like Marc Warren, etc. There have been plenty of shit NZ players who have played for the Nix. The other issue is the added cost of travel, which is either paid for by the FFA or clubs (I am not sure). Seems like an unnecessary expense, where we are still playing catch up in finances as a league. Especially considering there are plenty of local options, who could easily get a team bus to some away games, especially in NSW or VIC. Again, not saying they should be first option at all, but you can't deny that auckland ticks a lot of the boxes for the ffa, or that they haven't contributed to the development of australian footballers. How can you say almost 40 players getting an opportunity to play professional football isn't something? Thats 38 players who would otherwise be stuck in amateur football, and thats not even including the australian coaches, management, academy players, etc that have been with the nix. And the point of me bringing it up in the first place is because there is mostly resentment towards the idea, i don't know how u can say everyone is so supportive of NZ teams when most people would take their chances with a tassie team before even looking across the ditch. Ok put it this way, 38 Aussie players in 12 years (or 3 a season) courtesy of NZ football VS 108 players at a minimum (9 a season) in 12 years if it was an Aussie team. The numbers just don't stack up. For everything an Auckland team would add an Aussie team can add that and more. There is nothing to suggest they will even bring in additional viewers/TV revenue Its utter madness jaymz... just cut and paste this merrick quote (the quote from my post that paddy conveniently ommited) everytime a nz expansion crackpot arks up... ""First and foremost it has always been the club's intention to give young New Zealanders an opportunity to play professional football," Merrick said."I will continue to take that approach but I need to find a balance between New Zealand Football's demands for players in the international window when our Kiwi players are required for the All Whites and the need to field a competitive team." - ernie merrick, wellington phoenix manager. I didn't include your quote because its irrelevant to the situation. Merrick could say he only signs aussie youth players as a last resort, but the fact is that is simply not true. Right now there are 7 australian first team players with the nix, and there would be more than 38 players all up if it wasn't for the fact that they have had aussies stay with them numerous seasons, much different to the likes of newcastle, mariners, etc who offload players after very short spells. Also, your quote highlights how your perception of the pheonix's "death to australian youth development" attitude is impossible - so long as there is no break for the transfer window, which there will always be, it is impossible for phoenix to play with a kiwi-only squad. They actually have no choice but to use australian players. Ok paddy now now dont be disingenous. This isnt my first nix rodeo. Heres a quote from NZFA earlier this year.... “ We have consistently stated that the Phoenix form a key part of the football development pathway in this country and play a major role in supporting our international teams."So it's not just merrick at all. In fact merrick is simply singing from the nzfa hymn book. Domt kid yourself and please dont try and kid us. There is a crystal clear agenda there. FFA is NZ footballs development department (and financier). http://www.theroar.com.au/2015/10/28/governing-body-states-phoenix-a-league-support/
Is Wellington diverse? Dont know, however this is a club that has no historical or existing link to a specific migrant group - Rusty Einstein
The negative stereotypes are perpetuated by people who either have no idea or are serving a vested interest; neither viewpoint should get anywhere near running Australian football - Ange Postecoglou
|
|
|
|
|
Paddythelipps
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 83,
Visits: 0
|
+x[quote]You want less visa players but more jobs for kiwis. I don't.
If your willing to risk expansion into tasmania, geelong, 2nd adelaide etc before considering auckland then you want less jobs for aussies as well.
|
|
|
|
|
aussie scott21
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 19K,
Visits: 0
|
You want less visa players but more jobs for kiwis. I don't.
|
|
|
|
|
theFOOTBALLlover
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.4K,
Visits: 0
|
Promotion before relegation by Northern Fury chairman Rabieh Krayem Some very interesting ideas brought about about promotion/relegation and how it could help with expansion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joffa
|
|
Group: Moderators
Posts: 66K,
Visits: 0
|
+xWhy reduce visa spots then allow a team that can potentially have a full squad of non Australians? Because the two are not related. One is about having an additional viable club which adds value to the league and contributes to the financial health of Football overall. And the other one is about maximising the opportunities available for Australian players. Just because one might think there is a correlation between the two does not make it thus.
|
|
|
|
|
TheSelectFew
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 30K,
Visits: 0
|
+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xplaces with a suitable stadium that could be part of next expansion phase: canberra wollongong southern sydney (kogarah or cronulla stadiums, however ideally at st george) south-west sydney (campbelltown stadium) auckland (mt smart)
canberra places with an unsuitable stadiium ie. too big or oval shaped: north sydney (north sydney oval) geelong places with no suitable stadium: brisbane strikers 2nd adelaide (sharing a 15k stadium would be a farce) 2nd perth (unless sharing) Im constantly surprised that another NZ team gets constantly overlooked. They have a couple of really quality boutique stadiums in cities all 300k plus. And a team in auckland again would not be the same as the first time around, another NZ team for derbies and the recent football exposure and surging participation numbers in NZ makes it a prime candidate. The biggest issue for Auckland is the general resentment against having another NZ team, which I personally can't understand. Its pretty easy to understand. We arent here to develop nz football and fund nzfa. We jeed more pathways for Australian players... we need more clubs w an australian agenda....naturally. Between NZ knights and the nix, 38 Australian players have had 1st team football opportunities. the fact that aussies still count as home country players kind of proves the shared NZ/AUS agenda. And a stronger new zealand football community actually does benefit us, as does the development of any countries in our immediate region. Just take a look at the MLS initially funding and advocating for more canadian teams... So what you're saying is that in 12 years of a NZ team being in the A league 38 Aussies have been given first team opportunities, which is 3 Aussies a season, pretty underwhelming. As opposed to an Australian based team which at the bare minimum has 9 Aussie players a game (6 Aussies on field with the other 5 foreigners and 3 Aussie subs). Even if the Aussie clubs were to use the same team each game and have no injuries or suspensions for the season, they are at a minimum (and this scenario is virtually impossible) playing 3 times as many Aussie players than any NZ team has. This is the problem with having 1 team from NZ let alone 2. I don't know why everyone is so supportive of any NZ (or foreign) teams in the A league when we have not got that many professional opportunities in Australia for our own players. Not to mention the pitiful return we get for the TV deal from NZ, I doubt a derby will make it go up heaps. No NZ TV company is going to break the bank for essentially 3 big games, when there is not even competition for the rights in NZ. Ohh and anyone complaining about aussie clubs playing players like Marc Warren, etc. There have been plenty of shit NZ players who have played for the Nix. The other issue is the added cost of travel, which is either paid for by the FFA or clubs (I am not sure). Seems like an unnecessary expense, where we are still playing catch up in finances as a league. Especially considering there are plenty of local options, who could easily get a team bus to some away games, especially in NSW or VIC. Again, not saying they should be first option at all, but you can't deny that auckland ticks a lot of the boxes for the ffa, or that they haven't contributed to the development of australian footballers. How can you say almost 40 players getting an opportunity to play professional football isn't something? Thats 38 players who would otherwise be stuck in amateur football, and thats not even including the australian coaches, management, academy players, etc that have been with the nix. And the point of me bringing it up in the first place is because there is mostly resentment towards the idea, i don't know how u can say everyone is so supportive of NZ teams when most people would take their chances with a tassie team before even looking across the ditch. Ok put it this way, 38 Aussie players in 12 years (or 3 a season) courtesy of NZ football VS 108 players at a minimum (9 a season) in 12 years if it was an Aussie team. The numbers just don't stack up. For everything an Auckland team would add an Aussie team can add that and more. There is nothing to suggest they will even bring in additional viewers/TV revenue Its utter madness jaymz... just cut and paste this merrick quote (the quote from my post that paddy conveniently ommited) everytime a nz expansion crackpot arks up... ""First and foremost it has always been the club's intention to give young New Zealanders an opportunity to play professional football," Merrick said."I will continue to take that approach but I need to find a balance between New Zealand Football's demands for players in the international window when our Kiwi players are required for the All Whites and the need to field a competitive team." - ernie merrick, wellington phoenix manager. I didn't include your quote because its irrelevant to the situation. Merrick could say he only signs aussie youth players as a last resort, but the fact is that is simply not true. Right now there are 7 australian first team players with the nix, and there would be more than 38 players all up if it wasn't for the fact that they have had aussies stay with them numerous seasons, much different to the likes of newcastle, mariners, etc who offload players after very short spells. Also, your quote highlights how your perception of the pheonix's "death to australian youth development" attitude is impossible - so long as there is no break for the transfer window, which there will always be, it is impossible for phoenix to play with a kiwi-only squad. They actually have no choice but to use australian players. no matter how you try and spin it, the fact is they will always have kiwi players taking the spot of aussies in the team, unless kiwis are counted as foreigners like the rest of the HAL Its not a case of a kiwi Vs an aussie team. Its a case of a kiwi team Vs no team at all. Im not trying to spin anything, id just like to see increased opportunity for australian football development, even if that means a second NZ team. I could be wrong just like any of us, but i would hate to see the league taking a huge unnecessary risk with a future expansion club that ends up folding, all because we refused to look at an extremely viable NZ option. Football recently overtook rugby league and netball in participation rates, experiencing a 20% increase from 2010-2015, whilst the major sports (league, union, netball, swimming) all experienced decreases greater than 15%. Again, like I have mentioned every time, I'm not advocating for their immediate introduction, just their immediate consideration. Hopefully when looking at 14 or 16 teams Auckland is given the consideration it deserves. If anything they should look at establishing their own league, not join ours.
|
|
|
|
|
aussie scott21
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 19K,
Visits: 0
|
Why reduce visa spots then allow a team that can potentially have a full squad of non Australians?
|
|
|
|
|
Joffa
|
|
Group: Moderators
Posts: 66K,
Visits: 0
|
+xabsolutely hate the arguement against expansion when ppl say we dont have enough domestic talent to field 2 more teams. they are the same ppl who 6 months later argue that we should reduce the number of visa players to 4. I dunno, personally I want expansion and a I want a reduction in visa spots to 3 +1, but I'd settle for the status quo for regarding visa players if we got expansion or a second tier....but then I also wouldn't be against an Auckland team...
|
|
|
|
|
Paddythelipps
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 83,
Visits: 0
|
+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xplaces with a suitable stadium that could be part of next expansion phase: canberra wollongong southern sydney (kogarah or cronulla stadiums, however ideally at st george) south-west sydney (campbelltown stadium) auckland (mt smart)
canberra places with an unsuitable stadiium ie. too big or oval shaped: north sydney (north sydney oval) geelong places with no suitable stadium: brisbane strikers 2nd adelaide (sharing a 15k stadium would be a farce) 2nd perth (unless sharing) Im constantly surprised that another NZ team gets constantly overlooked. They have a couple of really quality boutique stadiums in cities all 300k plus. And a team in auckland again would not be the same as the first time around, another NZ team for derbies and the recent football exposure and surging participation numbers in NZ makes it a prime candidate. The biggest issue for Auckland is the general resentment against having another NZ team, which I personally can't understand. Its pretty easy to understand. We arent here to develop nz football and fund nzfa. We jeed more pathways for Australian players... we need more clubs w an australian agenda....naturally. Between NZ knights and the nix, 38 Australian players have had 1st team football opportunities. the fact that aussies still count as home country players kind of proves the shared NZ/AUS agenda. And a stronger new zealand football community actually does benefit us, as does the development of any countries in our immediate region. Just take a look at the MLS initially funding and advocating for more canadian teams... So what you're saying is that in 12 years of a NZ team being in the A league 38 Aussies have been given first team opportunities, which is 3 Aussies a season, pretty underwhelming. As opposed to an Australian based team which at the bare minimum has 9 Aussie players a game (6 Aussies on field with the other 5 foreigners and 3 Aussie subs). Even if the Aussie clubs were to use the same team each game and have no injuries or suspensions for the season, they are at a minimum (and this scenario is virtually impossible) playing 3 times as many Aussie players than any NZ team has. This is the problem with having 1 team from NZ let alone 2. I don't know why everyone is so supportive of any NZ (or foreign) teams in the A league when we have not got that many professional opportunities in Australia for our own players. Not to mention the pitiful return we get for the TV deal from NZ, I doubt a derby will make it go up heaps. No NZ TV company is going to break the bank for essentially 3 big games, when there is not even competition for the rights in NZ. Ohh and anyone complaining about aussie clubs playing players like Marc Warren, etc. There have been plenty of shit NZ players who have played for the Nix. The other issue is the added cost of travel, which is either paid for by the FFA or clubs (I am not sure). Seems like an unnecessary expense, where we are still playing catch up in finances as a league. Especially considering there are plenty of local options, who could easily get a team bus to some away games, especially in NSW or VIC. Again, not saying they should be first option at all, but you can't deny that auckland ticks a lot of the boxes for the ffa, or that they haven't contributed to the development of australian footballers. How can you say almost 40 players getting an opportunity to play professional football isn't something? Thats 38 players who would otherwise be stuck in amateur football, and thats not even including the australian coaches, management, academy players, etc that have been with the nix. And the point of me bringing it up in the first place is because there is mostly resentment towards the idea, i don't know how u can say everyone is so supportive of NZ teams when most people would take their chances with a tassie team before even looking across the ditch. Ok put it this way, 38 Aussie players in 12 years (or 3 a season) courtesy of NZ football VS 108 players at a minimum (9 a season) in 12 years if it was an Aussie team. The numbers just don't stack up. For everything an Auckland team would add an Aussie team can add that and more. There is nothing to suggest they will even bring in additional viewers/TV revenue Its utter madness jaymz... just cut and paste this merrick quote (the quote from my post that paddy conveniently ommited) everytime a nz expansion crackpot arks up... ""First and foremost it has always been the club's intention to give young New Zealanders an opportunity to play professional football," Merrick said."I will continue to take that approach but I need to find a balance between New Zealand Football's demands for players in the international window when our Kiwi players are required for the All Whites and the need to field a competitive team." - ernie merrick, wellington phoenix manager. I didn't include your quote because its irrelevant to the situation. Merrick could say he only signs aussie youth players as a last resort, but the fact is that is simply not true. Right now there are 7 australian first team players with the nix, and there would be more than 38 players all up if it wasn't for the fact that they have had aussies stay with them numerous seasons, much different to the likes of newcastle, mariners, etc who offload players after very short spells. Also, your quote highlights how your perception of the pheonix's "death to australian youth development" attitude is impossible - so long as there is no break for the transfer window, which there will always be, it is impossible for phoenix to play with a kiwi-only squad. They actually have no choice but to use australian players. no matter how you try and spin it, the fact is they will always have kiwi players taking the spot of aussies in the team, unless kiwis are counted as foreigners like the rest of the HAL Its not a case of a kiwi Vs an aussie team. Its a case of a kiwi team Vs no team at all. Im not trying to spin anything, id just like to see increased opportunity for australian football development, even if that means a second NZ team. I could be wrong just like any of us, but i would hate to see the league taking a huge unnecessary risk with a future expansion club that ends up folding, all because we refused to look at an extremely viable NZ option. Football recently overtook rugby league and netball in participation rates, experiencing a 20% increase from 2010-2015, whilst the major sports (league, union, netball, swimming) all experienced decreases greater than 15%. Again, like I have mentioned every time, I'm not advocating for their immediate introduction, just their immediate consideration. Hopefully when looking at 14 or 16 teams Auckland is given the consideration it deserves.
|
|
|
|
|
azzaMVFC
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 6.3K,
Visits: 0
|
+x+x+x+x+x+x+xDont want to sound like a naysayer here. But after watching a fair bit of the first two rounds, do we really have enough local talent to fill two teams? We might need to lift the current quota of foreign players to maybe 6-7 because all thats gonna happen is other clubs get drained and we continue to recycle rejected a-league players (most of whom already play for Newcastle or CCM) Maybe cap the playing/game day squad roster to 5, but i think clubs moght struggle to find enough players to dill two more teams. Each with at least 15 australian players. I don't think finding the players is the problem Firstly, you have the visa players Secondly, you poach Aussies from other A-League teams Thirdly, You look at returning name players ie. Holman, Cahill or so on.. Fourthly, you look at Aussie players in Europe and Asia who might be tempted to come home ie, Troisi, Brattan, Oar, & Zullo etc Fifthly, you look at recycling ex A-League players ie. Covic, Stella, Nick Ward etc... Sixthly, you look at Youth league, State League and NPL etc... If you can't find a serviceable squad after all of that then you aren't really trying.... The current set up can only handle a certain amount of teams before the quality gets effected Of course but two teams should easily be doable. I am sure if you made two 'best 11's from the NPL and had 5 foreigners it would make a serviceable squad, let alone adding in players overseas and at other clubs Not discounting the fact that these 11 NPL players will now have the chance to train and play in a professional environment week in week out. Their ability would improve significantly. Gully had this midfielder called Jay Davies who was an utter star that was making both CCM and Knights look like mugs. The guy played like Mooy, covering every inch of the ground and demanding the ball as a marauding playmaker. The whole game I was moaning why can't CCM or NUJ pick up this bloke as he is clearly good enough to play A-League and would be better than half the hacks they sign. Even if you took the 2 best player from the top 6 of NSWNPL and NPLV, you'd have a more than competent squad that could hold it's own. What they need is a pre-season and the full time conditioning that separates the pro's from them. Yeah I remember him, blond hair, we were calling him Messi on the night. Stood out.
|
|
|
|
|
melbourne_terrace
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 11K,
Visits: 0
|
+x+x+x+x+x+xDont want to sound like a naysayer here. But after watching a fair bit of the first two rounds, do we really have enough local talent to fill two teams? We might need to lift the current quota of foreign players to maybe 6-7 because all thats gonna happen is other clubs get drained and we continue to recycle rejected a-league players (most of whom already play for Newcastle or CCM) Maybe cap the playing/game day squad roster to 5, but i think clubs moght struggle to find enough players to dill two more teams. Each with at least 15 australian players. I don't think finding the players is the problem Firstly, you have the visa players Secondly, you poach Aussies from other A-League teams Thirdly, You look at returning name players ie. Holman, Cahill or so on.. Fourthly, you look at Aussie players in Europe and Asia who might be tempted to come home ie, Troisi, Brattan, Oar, & Zullo etc Fifthly, you look at recycling ex A-League players ie. Covic, Stella, Nick Ward etc... Sixthly, you look at Youth league, State League and NPL etc... If you can't find a serviceable squad after all of that then you aren't really trying.... The current set up can only handle a certain amount of teams before the quality gets effected Of course but two teams should easily be doable. I am sure if you made two 'best 11's from the NPL and had 5 foreigners it would make a serviceable squad, let alone adding in players overseas and at other clubs Not discounting the fact that these 11 NPL players will now have the chance to train and play in a professional environment week in week out. Their ability would improve significantly. Gully had this midfielder called Jay Davies who was an utter star that was making both CCM and Knights look like mugs. The guy played like Mooy, covering every inch of the ground and demanding the ball as a marauding playmaker. The whole game I was moaning why can't CCM or NUJ pick up this bloke as he is clearly good enough to play A-League and would be better than half the hacks they sign. Even if you took the 2 best player from the top 6 of NSWNPL and NPLV, you'd have a more than competent squad that could hold it's own. What they need is a pre-season and the full time conditioning that separates the pro's from them.
Viennese Vuck
|
|
|
|
|
williamn
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 5.1K,
Visits: 0
|
absolutely hate the arguement against expansion when ppl say we dont have enough domestic talent to field 2 more teams.
they are the same ppl who 6 months later argue that we should reduce the number of visa players to 4.
|
|
|
|
|
azzaMVFC
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 6.3K,
Visits: 0
|
+x+x+x+x+xDont want to sound like a naysayer here. But after watching a fair bit of the first two rounds, do we really have enough local talent to fill two teams? We might need to lift the current quota of foreign players to maybe 6-7 because all thats gonna happen is other clubs get drained and we continue to recycle rejected a-league players (most of whom already play for Newcastle or CCM) Maybe cap the playing/game day squad roster to 5, but i think clubs moght struggle to find enough players to dill two more teams. Each with at least 15 australian players. I don't think finding the players is the problem Firstly, you have the visa players Secondly, you poach Aussies from other A-League teams Thirdly, You look at returning name players ie. Holman, Cahill or so on.. Fourthly, you look at Aussie players in Europe and Asia who might be tempted to come home ie, Troisi, Brattan, Oar, & Zullo etc Fifthly, you look at recycling ex A-League players ie. Covic, Stella, Nick Ward etc... Sixthly, you look at Youth league, State League and NPL etc... If you can't find a serviceable squad after all of that then you aren't really trying.... The current set up can only handle a certain amount of teams before the quality gets effected Of course but two teams should easily be doable. I am sure if you made two 'best 11's from the NPL and had 5 foreigners it would make a serviceable squad, let alone adding in players overseas and at other clubs Not discounting the fact that these 11 NPL players will now have the chance to train and play in a professional environment week in week out. Their ability would improve significantly.
|
|
|
|
|
jaymz
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.5K,
Visits: 0
|
+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xplaces with a suitable stadium that could be part of next expansion phase: canberra wollongong southern sydney (kogarah or cronulla stadiums, however ideally at st george) south-west sydney (campbelltown stadium) auckland (mt smart)
canberra places with an unsuitable stadiium ie. too big or oval shaped: north sydney (north sydney oval) geelong places with no suitable stadium: brisbane strikers 2nd adelaide (sharing a 15k stadium would be a farce) 2nd perth (unless sharing) Im constantly surprised that another NZ team gets constantly overlooked. They have a couple of really quality boutique stadiums in cities all 300k plus. And a team in auckland again would not be the same as the first time around, another NZ team for derbies and the recent football exposure and surging participation numbers in NZ makes it a prime candidate. The biggest issue for Auckland is the general resentment against having another NZ team, which I personally can't understand. Its pretty easy to understand. We arent here to develop nz football and fund nzfa. We jeed more pathways for Australian players... we need more clubs w an australian agenda....naturally. Between NZ knights and the nix, 38 Australian players have had 1st team football opportunities. the fact that aussies still count as home country players kind of proves the shared NZ/AUS agenda. And a stronger new zealand football community actually does benefit us, as does the development of any countries in our immediate region. Just take a look at the MLS initially funding and advocating for more canadian teams... So what you're saying is that in 12 years of a NZ team being in the A league 38 Aussies have been given first team opportunities, which is 3 Aussies a season, pretty underwhelming. As opposed to an Australian based team which at the bare minimum has 9 Aussie players a game (6 Aussies on field with the other 5 foreigners and 3 Aussie subs). Even if the Aussie clubs were to use the same team each game and have no injuries or suspensions for the season, they are at a minimum (and this scenario is virtually impossible) playing 3 times as many Aussie players than any NZ team has. This is the problem with having 1 team from NZ let alone 2. I don't know why everyone is so supportive of any NZ (or foreign) teams in the A league when we have not got that many professional opportunities in Australia for our own players. Not to mention the pitiful return we get for the TV deal from NZ, I doubt a derby will make it go up heaps. No NZ TV company is going to break the bank for essentially 3 big games, when there is not even competition for the rights in NZ. Ohh and anyone complaining about aussie clubs playing players like Marc Warren, etc. There have been plenty of shit NZ players who have played for the Nix. The other issue is the added cost of travel, which is either paid for by the FFA or clubs (I am not sure). Seems like an unnecessary expense, where we are still playing catch up in finances as a league. Especially considering there are plenty of local options, who could easily get a team bus to some away games, especially in NSW or VIC. Again, not saying they should be first option at all, but you can't deny that auckland ticks a lot of the boxes for the ffa, or that they haven't contributed to the development of australian footballers. How can you say almost 40 players getting an opportunity to play professional football isn't something? Thats 38 players who would otherwise be stuck in amateur football, and thats not even including the australian coaches, management, academy players, etc that have been with the nix. And the point of me bringing it up in the first place is because there is mostly resentment towards the idea, i don't know how u can say everyone is so supportive of NZ teams when most people would take their chances with a tassie team before even looking across the ditch. Ok put it this way, 38 Aussie players in 12 years (or 3 a season) courtesy of NZ football VS 108 players at a minimum (9 a season) in 12 years if it was an Aussie team. The numbers just don't stack up. For everything an Auckland team would add an Aussie team can add that and more. There is nothing to suggest they will even bring in additional viewers/TV revenue Its utter madness jaymz... just cut and paste this merrick quote (the quote from my post that paddy conveniently ommited) everytime a nz expansion crackpot arks up... ""First and foremost it has always been the club's intention to give young New Zealanders an opportunity to play professional football," Merrick said."I will continue to take that approach but I need to find a balance between New Zealand Football's demands for players in the international window when our Kiwi players are required for the All Whites and the need to field a competitive team." - ernie merrick, wellington phoenix manager. I didn't include your quote because its irrelevant to the situation. Merrick could say he only signs aussie youth players as a last resort, but the fact is that is simply not true. Right now there are 7 australian first team players with the nix, and there would be more than 38 players all up if it wasn't for the fact that they have had aussies stay with them numerous seasons, much different to the likes of newcastle, mariners, etc who offload players after very short spells. Also, your quote highlights how your perception of the pheonix's "death to australian youth development" attitude is impossible - so long as there is no break for the transfer window, which there will always be, it is impossible for phoenix to play with a kiwi-only squad. They actually have no choice but to use australian players. no matter how you try and spin it, the fact is they will always have kiwi players taking the spot of aussies in the team, unless kiwis are counted as foreigners like the rest of the HAL
|
|
|
|
|
RedshirtWilly
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 7.4K,
Visits: 0
|
+xAlready we have seen three players that couldn't get game time last year playing well for new clubs.Nabbout,Pain and Clut.That's the tip of the ice berg.A lot of talented players who can't get game time and a lot who are amateurs in npl.Also when we had 12 teams,GCU was strong to begin with and Fury were competitive.With lesser quality players than available on the sidelines today.Then there are all those talented young players playing for Talay,who will get little if any football when they return.The talent is there in bucket loads it just needs a home. We've only ever had 11 teams and there was laughter on this forum because the likes of Beau Busch, Jason Spagnuolo and Kristian Rees still had contracts. Saying that I think the league has come in leaps and bounds since season 5 and 6.
|
|
|
|
|
crimsoncrusoe
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 6.9K,
Visits: 0
|
Already we have seen three players that couldn't get game time last year playing well for new clubs.Nabbout,Pain and Clut.That's the tip of the ice berg.A lot of talented players who can't get game time and a lot who are amateurs in npl.
Also when we had 12 teams,GCU was strong to begin with and Fury were competitive.With lesser quality players than available on the sidelines today.
Then there are all those talented young players playing for Talay,who will get little if any football when they return.
The talent is there in bucket loads it just needs a home.
|
|
|
|
|
jaymz
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.5K,
Visits: 0
|
+x+x+x+xDont want to sound like a naysayer here. But after watching a fair bit of the first two rounds, do we really have enough local talent to fill two teams? We might need to lift the current quota of foreign players to maybe 6-7 because all thats gonna happen is other clubs get drained and we continue to recycle rejected a-league players (most of whom already play for Newcastle or CCM) Maybe cap the playing/game day squad roster to 5, but i think clubs moght struggle to find enough players to dill two more teams. Each with at least 15 australian players. I don't think finding the players is the problem Firstly, you have the visa players Secondly, you poach Aussies from other A-League teams Thirdly, You look at returning name players ie. Holman, Cahill or so on.. Fourthly, you look at Aussie players in Europe and Asia who might be tempted to come home ie, Troisi, Brattan, Oar, & Zullo etc Fifthly, you look at recycling ex A-League players ie. Covic, Stella, Nick Ward etc... Sixthly, you look at Youth league, State League and NPL etc... If you can't find a serviceable squad after all of that then you aren't really trying.... The current set up can only handle a certain amount of teams before the quality gets effected Of course but two teams should easily be doable. I am sure if you made two 'best 11's from the NPL and had 5 foreigners it would make a serviceable squad, let alone adding in players overseas and at other clubs
|
|
|
|